Is 100 magic per damage multiplier still fair?

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  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Are you serious? Did you even run TTs back then? Your flippant response makes me doubt it. You obviously have no idea how much a TT run used to cost a barb or cleric to run. Most considered the system fair considering that barbs would walk out of a TT with a 200k repair bill as opposed to the BM's 40-50k.

    There were of course detractors, largely BM's who felt they deserved more than they actually did and at times had to be kicked out for causing more problems in runs then they were worth. FYI, Wizards and venos also fell into the DD category so yes I fell into that systems low end as well. Did I mind? No, because I understood the resources I used for the run were far less than the barb, cleric, or opener.

    Scraps? Most TTs dropped enough so that most would get something they needed. AND... If you REALLY had an issue with barbs and clerics getting SECOND and THIRD pick in the ROUND ROBIN system the simplest solution was to simply pay the subs to open the run and get FIRST.

    Actually he is right. When I did it with a group of friends, we did full split of mats with 10% price discount if anyone in group wanted it. The cost difference was covered with barbs getting mirage, which were worth 30k back then. That was what was fair for cost. And if a cleric was too cheap to bother with using mana regen apoth to make healing cheaper in BB (it was always cheaper than DDing if you IB outside of AoE), then that is on them. I never played under-prepped and used it as an excuse for more coin.

    Move and come back 2 months later, it's as he said. Barbs wanted gold mat even if they didn't need it, because they'd sell it if they didn't (to cover "costs"). They tried offering me 2nd pick, I just didn't really care about it. Gave that up and proceeded to not go on anymore TT runs as a group. WC was filled with the exact same instances being repeated, and brought us into the greed runs. Which is precisely why I started running solo on my BM during 2X single mode: playing with greedy people is no fun, and even if I would profit from it, couldn't stand dealing with it. Especially since chip molds were usually under 10 per mold for casters at the time.
  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Are you serious? Did you even run TTs back then? Your flippant response makes me doubt it. You obviously have no idea how much a TT run used to cost a barb or cleric to run. Most considered the system fair considering that barbs would walk out of a TT with a 200k repair bill as opposed to the BM's 40-50k.

    There were of course detractors, largely BM's who felt they deserved more than they actually did and at times had to be kicked out for causing more problems in runs then they were worth. FYI, Wizards and venos also fell into the DD category so yes I fell into that systems low end as well. Did I mind? No, because I understood the resources I used for the run were far less than the barb, cleric, or opener.

    Scraps? Most TTs dropped enough so that most would get something they needed. AND... If you REALLY had an issue with barbs and clerics getting SECOND and THIRD pick in the ROUND ROBIN system the simplest solution was to simply pay the subs to open the run and get FIRST.

    Still have a problem? Okay, do a faction run and let ALL mats go to those who need them. Back then factions helped each other out quite a bit and there was far less backstabbing. I knew many barbs and clerics who would go just to get to know how their faction mates worked and help friends. They would take only the lowest priced mats for repairs IF ANY and only if they weren't needed. How many APSers would do that at the height of the APS craze? I knew of none, and their costs were significantly less considering they could kill the bosses a lot faster than old school squads.

    Oh, and one last bit of irony, after APS became the primary farming method APSers started calling second (and some even had the gall to call first when they didn't open) for any all class farming run that they were a part of (and those became few and far between I might add). Barbs, casters? They could take a hike.

    So yes, runs back then were more fun and far more fair. If you didn't like the system there were alternatives and if you were one of those that just didn't want to share you could always do solo runs. Next time you want to talk from the hip and not from experience take an example from this smiley b:shutup

    Psshh... all I'm getting from the blah blah blah above is that you're pissed that your original elitist system got replaced by another... full stop. And all that b.s. about Barbs/Clerics being allowed to get first picks due to higher repair costs is just that... B.S. You choose to play the class that has certain drawbacks (higher repair/MP costs) ?

    You accept and learn to live with the higher maintenance that comes with the class... not try to recoup your costs at every opportunity at the expense of the rest of the squad.

    My Seeker used to easily hit close to 500k in repairs regularly when doing full Delta. Yet you didn't see ME demanding to keep the first book page that dropped... And I didn't change my policy even after they took the coins out of that instance. Truth be told your attitude is no different than the same elitist apsers you are crying down.
  • VKnightV - Lost City
    VKnightV - Lost City Posts: 381 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    did u play on any server before you joined archerous cos ur respond so bias.

    i heard alredy how the barb population was in archerous but that was not so in lost city we hade plenty and plenty of barbs.


    the barbs died when sin come out.


    as the moto go either join the aps crazy or gtfo was always said to us.

    barb raged cos majority of teh barb were ok with repair bill and the drop rate and stuff but what we tho was ledicrius was that once aps coem we hade no place to feel at home.

    dps become such a big factor with bp that there was no need with a barb and when archerous formed everyoen and there mum rolled a sin.

    dont blame it on us barb blame it on the hax wish is aps and mentallity of everyoen who uses it.


    you guys hate the speed but what about that everywhere you saw there was ppl having fun

    ur so op speed killed what was a challange and fun

    3 hour for a thing i know i am having fun is better then a speed roll wish i am wondering wtf i am doing here.

    god u guys dont get it you never played pw hardcore where skill and time consuming mattered .

    a shame
    i
  • VKnightV - Lost City
    VKnightV - Lost City Posts: 381 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Psshh... all I'm getting from the blah blah blah above is that you're pissed that your original elitist system got replaced by another... full stop. And all that b.s. about Barbs/Clerics being allowed to get first picks due to higher repair costs is just that... B.S. You choose to play the class that has certain drawbacks (higher repair/MP costs) ?

    You accept and learn to live with the higher maintenance that comes with the class... not try to recoup your costs at every opportunity at the expense of the rest of the squad.

    My Seeker used to easily hit close to 500k in repairs regularly when doing full Delta. Yet you didn't see ME demanding to keep the first book page that dropped... And I didn't change my policy even after they took the coins out of that instance. Truth be told your attitude is no different than the same elitist apsers you are crying down.



    omg i hope the devs keep making caster class ever more op

    and i hope u dont qq to much about ur um what was it u called it (original elitist system[/B] got replaced by another)

    ooh wait it actually did purify spell

    + caster get more damage per stats

    bb now dont remember to look teh door when it hits you in the head too much
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Are you serious? Did you even run TTs back then?

    Oh, and one last bit of irony, after APS became the primary farming method APSers started calling second (and some even had the gall to call first when they didn't open) for any all class farming run that they were a part of (and those became few and far between I might add). Barbs, casters? They could take a hike.

    So yes, runs back then were more fun and far more fair. If you didn't like the system there were alternatives and if you were one of those that just didn't want to share you could always do solo runs. Next time you want to talk from the hip and not from experience take an example from this smiley b:shutup

    .7 attack speed -.05 interval = .65
    .65 - .05 = .6
    .6 - .05 = .55
    .55 - .05 = .5
    .5 - .05 = .45 ....

    OMGHAX. How are they doing this voodoo!?! Increasing your attack speed makes you attack faster. Game is broken! They're using math in online games now!

    YSOBUTTHURT? You sound like you quit pwi in 2010 when sins were introduced and aps were popularized and everyone was anti-aps because of sins in pk mode and haven't moved on or played since.

    My first character was a cleric and was my highest level. Second was a barb. I like to help people. Third was a bm. Then I made a TT farming veno. Then I started loving BM and play the majority of my time (about 40% of my game time) on it. The other 60% is spent on 8 other characters of all different classes. Balancing casters and giving them fair statting would hurt me too, but I'd rather play an honest class than one thats gets pity stat values.

    I remember the early days of TT. I often got extra drops as cleric, I usually turned them down. I was a good cleric and didn't die much so didn't have rez scrolls or xp loss issues. I was also pure and smart about mp use so my pot use wasn't too bad. I also tanked alot of TTs on my barb and repair bills were pretty high. Back then 90k repair bills were insane on tt80 an tt90 gear. Weapons are the most expensive things to repair, and any aps will be attacking 4-8 times more than their squad mates and probably tanking. My biggest repair bills have always been my sin and bm. And how we used to split was subber got mirages, barb and cleric got first pick but somewhat equal (they'd get the prized mats worth 500k where DD's might get 2 x 100k and 6x 40k pieces).

    The beauty of aps is it helps whoever you run with. If I run with my faction mates one of two things happens, I either 5 aps the boss and tank and get 1/6th the split, or I run with the person who specifically needs the mats and duo it, I do 90% of the work and take 1/2 the split.

    One thing I'm noticing is casters totally neglected refining their weapons unless they were pk addicts. The qq over aps was only half about us attacking faster or perma sparking, a large part of the problem is we refined our weapons to +10 while casters sat there with +3 weapons and QQ'd about being out dd'd and it wasn't "fair".

    Yes, we tend to stick together if we're spamming instances. If someone has 500m in gear, they want to run with other people who are on par with them, not people who do a fraction of the damage, hardly contribute, and want an equal share. If we're doing a single BH, or less than 5 Nirvanas then who cares though? 1 minute slower Nirvanas wasn't worth neglecting anyone if you were only doing 3 runs and it'd take 5 minutes longer to find a 6th person. It only became important when we were talking about doing 20+ Nirvanas.

    Pro derail. Call my thread QQ then tangent with your 2 year old QQ. W
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    omg i hope the devs keep making caster class ever more op

    and i hope u dont qq to much about ur um what was it u called it (original elitist system[/B] got replaced by another)

    ooh wait it actually did purify spell

    + caster get more damage per stats

    bb now dont remember to look teh door when it hits you in the head too much

    I could care less what class is flavor of the month now seeing as how I uninstalled back in January... and the way this game is going right now (next up... +2 DoTs lol) I can't see wild horses dragging me back.

    And for your information, the BM aviator you are looking at was retired by me more than a year and a half ago. I played my R9 Seeker exclusively until quitting.
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Funny how your all fighting over who picks first and repair bills and all those other arguments. Fits exactly my TT experiences. :)

    I have been doing a bunch of TT running with my cleric friend. We both were in TT90 equipment. Obviously we were both the support classes but we always made squad and had all kind of APS guys joining us. Many weren't the most mature type.

    It was amusing to see them play as they do. You see them strugling against eachother for agro. Multiple sins not cooperating enough to spark at the same time, then ******** at the BM if his HF is not perfectly timed with his spark. Walking a little circle pulling the boss in a different direction to show they have agro when they managed to overtake it.

    More important than being a support class and doing the buffing and the debuffing was the diplomatic role. Of course we were the cheaply equiped support classes running with the much better equiped APS guys and their egos. Had to keep my modesty and acknowledge their greatness. Then when their egos colide, being the diplomatic judge to decide whom of them gets first pick.
    Ye its a special game this PWI and its players :)
  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Both are broken but fact is APS has more grounds of balance than higher multiplier of damage for casters. APS only becomes problem when stacked and it always comes with a cost - APS gear is quite squishy. Difference to magic multiplier is how stacking magic doesnt really come with any cost. No vit? Do you see anybody but barbs with added vit? Discounting obvious poor Bob`s TW clerics/etc.

    Both are not broken, contrary to what you may wish. APS only becomes a problem when stacked? Earlier you said it wasn't worth using unless stacked. Whatever cost it may come with is far surpassed by the shear amount of damage it puts out in record time. I also like how you aren't bringing up Blood Paint. Another mechanic that made APS even more broken than it would have been originally. "Cleric? What's that? With BP I can heal myself b:victory" Do casters get bloodpaint? Do melee venos get bloodpaint? Do pets get bloodpaint? No? And yet you still go on about how "balanced" APS is...
    There though is similarity in how stat point multiplier only starts to really show on higher levels as masteries play fairly big part in dmg multipliers(and standard 100% multiplier) on earlier/mid levels. Endgame bigger part of the dmg multiplier comes from stat points. The higher stat points we go, the higher relative dmg multiplier casters get than anyone else. For example, on level 50 total multiplier of caster can be 20% higher than melee`s and due how standard multipliers dont really grow at endgame, least not as quickly as stat point multipliers, on lvl 100 it will be over 20%. Number 20% is taken off hat so to say, in truth we are talking bout bigger relative difference.

    You... you are trying to make me laugh aren't you. This is all a big troll joke isn't it? You don't seem to have a grasp on anything other than the difference in base stats, and bringing in masteries just threw open the gates to the ball park. Sage mastery for cleric, veno, mystic, and wizard for all spell damage is at most 25% of specific elemental damage. What is it for melee? 90% of weapon damage. With melee venos being the only exception at 200% weapon damage. Of course, that's based off of magic weapons and usually comes tied with low strength scores. Not the 400 or so BMs achieve. Sins are even worse with Dex. The weapon mastery modifier is added on top of the bonus you get from Strength so that each STR point you put into your char yeilds greater damage returns with high damage weapons, such as axes, than APS weapons, such as fists. FYI this is one of the reasons axes are so popular in PVP.

    Magic weapons are not as widely varied in damage output and the mastery modifier is based off of total elemental damage, not weapon damage. This means that per refine, physical damage would yield far greater returns then magic damage, at least if we did things the way you want to. As it stands, due to the x100 mag modifier, refines for mag weapons increase total damage by increasing total elemental damage through increasing the weapons base score, then the mastery comes into play. With phys refines, physical damage gets the weapon damage increase multiplied by the mastery bonus along with the STR bonus.

    How do I know this? As a physical veno my melee score is dwarfed by my mag score with a low refine weapon. At +10 They become about equal. Both my STR and my MAG sit at about 315, so there isn't a large discrepancy in stats and I have both masteries maxed. Granted my weapon damage is 200% and not 90% but the fact remains that masteries increase physical damage with weapon refines more than they increase elemental damage with refines. If you want to make the argument that refines shouldn't matter with balance between classes then you might have a valid argument, key word being "might". However this is a CS game and of course PWI would want you to refine your weapons to attain "balance". I should point out however, that just because my scores are equal at +10 doesn't mean my damages are balanced. My physical attack rate far surpasses my magic attack rate. If they both do similar damage I wouldn't call that balanced at all. BTW why don't you use attack rates in your calculations? Such as the APS attack rate you keep championing?

    Back to high school, if we look into the dmg multiplier formulas, we can come in to conclusion I came in the earlier paragraph with basic understanding of statistical math. Least I would category it there instead of mathematical analysis, which I would consider more of means for conclusion.

    Back to elementary school for you. Even first graders know that if you don't take into account all the numbers of an equation you'll wind up with a wrong answer. Since you continue to ignore mastery bonuses and attack speed your math does just that.
    Hah. The soloing of TTs started with herc and veno, aps made it faster. Prior to aps people were making farming venos, even I started leveling farming veno before I quit for year(s?) till Archosaur started. Soloing TT wasnt result of aps, it got a lot faster cause of it though.

    Another true statement used poorly. For crying out loud I'm getting tired of correcting you idiots. Your statement should read "The soloing of LOW TTs started with herc venos." They couldn't hope to do any higher than 2-2 or perhaps 2-3 and even then they had to avoid the high value mats dropped by bosses a herc couldn't beat such as Wurlord. On top of that they had to pay at least three others to open it (instead of just forming an all APS party) and received far more flack for it than APSers did only a year or so later. Soling any TT with a herc also took several hours. Farm venos would complain that they could only do 2 to 3 TTs in a decent day of gaming as opposed to 6 or 7 a farm squad could run, the only consolation of course being that they kept all the mats from the bosses they could actually kill. Many venos would instead choose to use their herc to bot DQ's but that is a problem not related to this thread.

    The ONLY similiarity between APS farmers and herc farmers were that both were possible only through cash shop. (If you want to go and say how APS gear was in game before packs you are welcome to. To prevent myself from writing another post wall on THAT topic I will simply say there are several reasons people didn't have them.) APS gear however could farm every TT and they could do it much quicker than herc venos could ever hope to. Herc venos made a slightly unbalanced profit off of soloing group TT runs. APSers killed it.
  • Mingkeey - Lost City
    Mingkeey - Lost City Posts: 306 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    bm's,barbs,sin.and everyone can survive from 700+magic.now close this thread and WRAP IT UP!AND CUT! THANK YOU! WE GOT IT!
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Both are not broken, contrary to what you may wish. APS only becomes a problem when stacked? Earlier you said it wasn't worth using unless stacked. Whatever cost it may come with is far surpassed by the shear amount of damage it puts out in record time. I also like how you aren't bringing up Blood Paint. Another mechanic that made APS even more broken than it would have been originally. "Cleric? What's that? With BP I can heal myself b:victory" Do casters get bloodpaint? Do melee venos get bloodpaint? Do pets get bloodpaint? No? And yet you still go on about how "balanced" APS is...

    It isnt a problem of balance till we are talking bout massive APS. And really, low APS it`s fairly irrelevant. I myself wouldnt care jack`s **** if I have APS with axes, there are simply so many other more relevant stats with such weapon.

    Bloodpaint is fairly balanced till +10 weapons and high APS. Anybody who has played "farming sins" or higher tier sins or even BMs understands this. You are talking out of your *** with no real experience.

    And why dont casters get BP? I cant do anything but laugh at this point. Imo every class should get it as long as they are using melee attacks. You should be able to go slap mobs with your wand/glaive/pataka/sword/whatever and get BP healing from it. But have range attacks heal? Thats a ludicrous thought. If I equip my bow my attacks dont heal and believe or not, there is a damn good reason for it.

    But suppose realism is bit too mainstream for you. I can tell you for a fact R9 DoT psy held off aggro off my sin in WS, pretty sure she was N3 +10 and 5aps that time aka high tier APS toon. Short time bursts, where replenishing chi isnt such a big deal, casters really arent that far behind in DPS as long as they are least similarly geared.


    You... you are trying to make me laugh aren't you. This is all a big troll joke isn't it? You don't seem to have a grasp on anything other than the difference in base stats, and bringing in masteries just threw open the gates to the ball park. Sage mastery for cleric, veno, mystic, and wizard for all spell damage is at most 25% of specific elemental damage. What is it for melee? 90% of weapon damage. With melee venos being the only exception at 200% weapon damage. Of course, that's based off of magic weapons and usually comes tied with low strength scores. Not the 400 or so BMs achieve. Sins are even worse with Dex. The weapon mastery modifier is added on top of the bonus you get from Strength so that each STR point you put into your char yeilds greater damage returns with high damage weapons, such as axes, than APS weapons, such as fists. FYI this is one of the reasons axes are so popular in PVP.

    I dont feel right responding to this w/o mocking but I also believe nobody should be mocked because they are stupid and cant help it.

    The differences in how masteries work make it actually even clearer. The masteries balance the difference from statpoint modifier, higher weapon damage, higher skill dmg of casters, might of missed something. This is on early levels and low stat point modifiers. But when masteries impact on non caster classes grow smaller, the stat points modifier playes bigger part for them too and as non casters get less than casters, relative difference grows. [Edit: Rephrased to make more sense <.<]

    Simplest point is from 92 to 100, where masteries are maxed.

    For 92 caster, say sage psy with 25% mastery. They need what, 50 points of str(TT90)? so 45 extra point out of 455, leaving 400 for mag or total of 405.

    We get damage multiplier with 1 + 405/100 = 5.05 x 1.25 = 6.31

    92 sin, lets say sage sin with 90% mastery. TT90 LA so there goes 94 str, which means 89 extra points of 455. Leaves us 5 + (455-89[=366]) = 371 dex.

    1 + 371 / 150 + 0.9 = 4.37

    Relative difference, 6.31 - 4.37 / 4.37 x 100% = 44%

    8 levels = 40 stat points

    And say extra 100 points from gear, which is less than reality on high end game gear, but helps to realize difference

    Lvl 100 psy needs 54 str so 40-4 = 36. This 36 and 100 added to 405 = 541

    We get damage multiplier with 1 + 541/100 = 6.41 x 1.25 = 8.01

    Level 100 sin needs 104 str

    it`s 10 more than 94 so 40 - 10 = 30 + 100 from gear + existing 371 = 501

    1 + 501 / 150 + 0.9 = 5,24

    Relative difference 8.01 - 5.24 / 5.24 x 100% = 53%

    The point is, at end game the difference in stat point modifier formula has bigger and bigger effect on relative dmg multiplier between classes. With R999 set bonuses, etc. The relative damage multiplier is even higher between R999 psy and R999 sin, let alone BMs/barbs who need both str and dex.
    Magic weapons are not as widely varied in damage output and the mastery modifier is based off of total elemental damage, not weapon damage. This means that per refine, physical damage would yield far greater returns then magic damage, at least if we did things the way you want to. As it stands, due to the x100 mag modifier, refines for mag weapons increase total damage by increasing total elemental damage through increasing the weapons base score, then the mastery comes into play. With phys refines, physical damage gets the weapon damage increase multiplied by the mastery bonus along with the STR bonus.

    Oh this is amusing, in reality it is quite the opposite if I understood half what you said. I played and treated earth mastery as weapon mastery of non caster classes. I got 22% relative difference on level 92 and 27% for level 100.

    Actually magic weps refine worse as long as melee mastery is over 20% of damage multiplier. After that point, magic weapons refine better aka end game. This is simple deduction utilizing Associative laws.

    Damage dealt is Y or 100% and X is damage dealt w/o earth mastery.

    100% = 1.25x // 1.25
    X = 100% / 1.25
    X = 80%

    100% - 80% = 20%
    How do I know this? As a physical veno my melee score is dwarfed by my mag score with a low refine weapon. At +10 They become about equal. Both my STR and my MAG sit at about 315, so there isn't a large discrepancy in stats and I have both masteries maxed. Granted my weapon damage is 200% and not 90% but the fact remains that masteries increase physical damage with weapon refines more than they increase elemental damage with refines. If you want to make the argument that refines shouldn't matter with balance between classes then you might have a valid argument, key word being "might". However this is a CS game and of course PWI would want you to refine your weapons to attain "balance". I should point out however, that just because my scores are equal at +10 doesn't mean my damages are balanced. My physical attack rate far surpasses my magic attack rate. If they both do similar damage I wouldn't call that balanced at all. BTW why don't you use attack rates in your calculations? Such as the APS attack rate you keep championing?

    Ohkey. 200% = 2 on multiplier.

    1 + 315/150 + 2 = 5.1

    2 / 5.1 x 100% = 39.2% which is in fact over 20%.

    Rest of the paragraph is rendered pointless as this was already explained on my earlier paragraph.
    Back to elementary school for you. Even first graders know that if you don't take into account all the numbers of an equation you'll wind up with a wrong answer. Since you continue to ignore mastery bonuses and attack speed your math does just that.

    Taking attack speed into account would be stupid, it only really affects PvE with end game gear as due purify proc most of end game PvP has changed into skill spamming, making attack speed mostly irrelevant factor. And imo channeling/set factors (the skill dmg) should be where attack speed is matched, not damage multiplier. But this part, of course, is simply my own opinion.
    Another true statement used poorly. For crying out loud I'm getting tired of correcting you idiots. Your statement should read "The soloing of LOW TTs started with herc venos." They couldn't hope to do any higher than 2-2 or perhaps 2-3 and even then they had to avoid the high value mats dropped by bosses a herc couldn't beat such as Wurlord. On top of that they had to pay at least three others to open it (instead of just forming an all APS party) and received far more flack for it than APSers did only a year or so later. Soling any TT with a herc also took several hours. Farm venos would complain that they could only do 2 to 3 TTs in a decent day of gaming as opposed to 6 or 7 a farm squad could run, the only consolation of course being that they kept all the mats from the bosses they could actually kill. Many venos would instead choose to use their herc to bot DQ's but that is a problem not related to this thread.

    I suppose my friend didnt solo 3-1(all bosses included) or farm 3-2/3-3, obviously skipping some bosses, on his veno? I can say for a fact 9x veno soloed full 3-1, only problematic part may be Djinn due timer but honestly, you can pull sorceress trough door anyway, well least I saw it done. Abusing a glitch, sure, doesnt change the fact of it happening. Only real difference here is speed, you think average aps sins solo full 3-2/3-3? Rofl. Yes, best sins do that but then again we are talking bout those with +11-12 on everything. Dont really know how sages compare to that though.
    The ONLY similiarity between APS farmers and herc farmers were that both were possible only through cash shop. (If you want to go and say how APS gear was in game before packs you are welcome to. To prevent myself from writing another post wall on THAT topic I will simply say there are several reasons people didn't have them.) APS gear however could farm every TT and they could do it much quicker than herc venos could ever hope to. Herc venos made a slightly unbalanced profit off of soloing group TT runs. APSers killed it.

    Herc is 200g, less on sales? Do you have any idea what soloing 3-1 efficiently nowdays, or higher ones, requires? I can do it, though beast can kill me in 3-1 on bad day. Want to guess what my gear is worth? Despite N3 daggers worth plummeting, I have to say 1.2-1.3b. Or put in gold, which at ~1m according to vent, it`s 1.2-1.3k, over 6 times more than effing herc. Yeah, I think I deserve to solo it quicker than veno with a herc.

    Ps. I see you didnt follow your own advice, a shame.

    Edit: Always double check your thinking <.<.
    Trolling Sid since So Hot :o
  • VKnightV - Lost City
    VKnightV - Lost City Posts: 381 Arc User
    edited March 2013


    It isnt a problem of balance till we are talking bout massive APS. And really, low APS it`s fairly irrelevant. I myself wouldnt
    Herc is 200g, less on sales? Do you have any idea what soloing 3-1 efficiently nowdays, or higher ones, requires? I can do it, though beast can kill me in 3-1 on bad day. Want to guess what my gear is worth? Despite N3 daggers worth plummeting, I have to say 1.2-1.3b. Or put in gold, which at ~1m according to vent, it`s 1.2-1.3k, over 6 times more than effing herc. Yeah, I think I deserve to solo it quicker than veno with a herc.

    Ps. I see you didnt follow your own advice, a shame.



    ok i put the same money on my barb and make him hmm say str and hmm tell me what tme frame u pull it off to make sure my str non aps barb can pull a simular stunt

    cos if i am to belive ur hipocricy if one pay so much coin you better belive one should be able to solo and at a decent time to right.

    so tell me how much coin ur so oh ecxpensive build cost and time frame and i will see to a simular cost wise build that can do it without aps


    but hey it shoudl not matter if i put so much coin everyone shoudl be able to solo and damn fast
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Psshh... all I'm getting from the blah blah blah above is that you're pissed that your original elitist system got replaced by another... full stop. And all that b.s. about Barbs/Clerics being allowed to get first picks due to higher repair costs is just that... B.S. You choose to play the class that has certain drawbacks (higher repair/MP costs) ?

    You accept and learn to live with the higher maintenance that comes with the class... not try to recoup your costs at every opportunity at the expense of the rest of the squad.
    If you're going to compare an elitist system to another elitist system, you'd better take a look at what elements form the basis of the elitism. It wasn't just repair/charm costs that factored into preference to barbs/clerics. It was the fact that - guess what - barbs and clerics were the rarest classes, and there's going to be natural advantages to that.

    Let's be honest on something, here... nobody wanted the hard jobs back in the day. Nobody wanted to be the tank responsible for holding aggro against all the squishies who'd complain if they stole aggro and died. Nobody wanted to be the cleric who was charged with watching the HP counts of four or five idiots determined to deplete them at all costs. That wasn't anybody's idea of a good time. All anyone wanted to do was DD, pew pew pew, OMG LOOK AT THE DAMAGE I DO, EPEEN++;

    Even today you get signs of that. Today's BH squad makeups are an uncanny echo of those old TTs. You can do them without a barb, sure, but it's a lot easier and smoother with one. I can't help but chuckle every time I see a squad begging for barb + cleric in world chat. Sometimes when I'm making a squad with my barb, I'll ask how many are in their squad to see if I can merge w/them. Well what a surprise, there are four of them in squad and they're all DDs. To which I say, "gl with that," and continue choosing from my selection of dime-a-dozen sins in world chat.

    Is that fair? Well maybe not, but neither is having all the responsibility and still having to give equal resources (be it TT mats or time spent forming BH squads) to the LOL PEW PEW crowd. You can't have it both ways. Nobody's stopping you from rolling a barb or a cleric.

    But as Kisz pointed out, if you still had a problem with that system? Sub the run! It's not hard to find a few mid-level mats, and it's still cheaper than the barb's repair bill or the cleric's charm cost. If you couldn't do that, you had no right to whine about not having a rarely-significant advantage in a round robin mat choosing system.

    Today's elitism, by contrast, is a much simpler and cruder equation where damage = worth. Oh, how far our lovely pixel society has come. >_>
    Yes, we tend to stick together if we're spamming instances. If someone has 500m in gear, they want to run with other people who are on par with them, not people who do a fraction of the damage, hardly contribute, and want an equal share. If we're doing a single BH, or less than 5 Nirvanas then who cares though? 1 minute slower Nirvanas wasn't worth neglecting anyone if you were only doing 3 runs and it'd take 5 minutes longer to find a 6th person. It only became important when we were talking about doing 20+ Nirvanas.

    Pro derail. Call my thread QQ then tangent with your 2 year old QQ. W
    Oh no, someone countered your QQ with their QQ? How terrible. Good thing discussion about aps has been around longer than discussion about magic damage multipliers, or you'd have had no arbitrarily-defined measure of relevancy to point out. D:

    Sorry, but 500m of broken gear doesn't entitle you to jack. If they fixed aps tomorrow, the wielder of that gear would have no ground to stand on, because he knew full well what he was doing when he bought/farmed it. No instance, certainly not TT or Nirvana, was designed to allow farming of the magnitude people rationalize today. 20+ Nirvana runs would be a day-long marathon if aps gear wasn't as broken as it is. In 2009, spending 500m+ on your gear meant you were cerifiably insane (and quite possibly CS'd a good portion of it), and that you would never get your investment back in any reasonable amount of time.

    The problem with aps is that it moves the baseline for what people consider reasonable. In 2009, one TT run per hour was reasonable and five per hour was insane. In 2013, five runs per hour is reasonable and one run per hour means you're just laughable. It's all in how you frame it.

    It's good that you don't carry the elitism into BH squad creation, though... props for that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    But suppose realism is bit too mainstream for you.
    I dont feel right responding to this w/o mocking but I also believe nobody should be mocked because they are stupid and cant help it.

    So much win b:victory

    Personally, I give up on them. If they haven't figured out how characters attack in the years they're played pwi we're not gonna explain it to them while they apsrage at us.

    But ty for the math and bringing things back on point. Is 100 points = 100% damage for casters but 150 points = 100% more damage for melees fair? Or is it unfair and something that should be brought to the public and pw development teams attention?
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • VKnightV - Lost City
    VKnightV - Lost City Posts: 381 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    So much win b:victory

    Personally, I give up on them. If they haven't figured out how characters attack in the years they're played pwi we're not gonna explain it to them while they apsrage at us.

    But ty for the math and bringing things back on point. Is 100 points = 100% damage for casters but 150 points = 100% more damage for melees fair? Or is it unfair and something that should be brought to the public and pw development teams attention?


    nope cos as aps was part of what devs at the time tho was in between ok so would i asume this would be.


    is it broken well i can say its not more broken then the former broken mechanism some bm and sin have been using for two years stright.
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ok i put the same money on my barb and make him hmm say str and hmm tell me what tme frame u pull it off to make sure my str non aps barb can pull a simular stunt

    cos if i am to belive ur hipocricy if one pay so much coin you better belive one should be able to solo and at a decent time to right.

    so tell me how much coin ur so oh ecxpensive build cost and time frame and i will see to a simular cost wise build that can do it without aps


    but hey it shoudl not matter if i put so much coin everyone shoudl be able to solo and damn fast

    APS barb with G16 claws/fists is tankier than sin but deals less dmg. Id call aps barb balanced compared to aps sin or BM.

    Str barb though? The problem here is low base attack speed of axes/whatever you are using. Obviously smaller dph requires higher dps for balance but problem is garnet shards and equal refining rates. While imo shards should be the same, fists/claws/daggers should of never have been set to same refine rate as axes. And attack speed should of been % based increase, not flat time between attacks based as it doesnt treat weapon types equally.

    I think this is ultimately PvE build vs PvP build, least among barbs. I dont think every build should be absolutely equal on everything. APS barb has clearly less defenses, more restrictions on gear and lacking dph compared to str barbs. Clawbarbs are also mostly stationary for dps. For PvE, apsing on bosses, all these weaknesses of build are irrelevant after certain point of refines/shards.

    Yes, difference is too big but imo PvP build shouldnt work on PvE as well as PvE build. And other way around, only real exception for this ever was sins. With purify proc, aps sins are weakest class of end game PvP. And well BMs nowdays as they seem to be forced to high dex(PvE build) due everybody having quite a bit base dex. I actually wonder if barbs should do the same and simply have 2nd weapon too as the higher dex build would allow it.
    Trolling Sid since So Hot :o
  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    equal refining rates. While imo shards should be the same, fists/claws/daggers should of never have been set to same refine rate as axes.

    They don't, and never have. Been a long while, but think it's in the 7X% rate of fist refinement vs. BM's other weapons (wanna say 72%)

    EDIT: For claws/fists anyways.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    They don't, and never have. Been a long while, but think it's in the 7X% rate of fist refinement vs. BM's other weapons (wanna say 72%)

    EDIT: For claws/fists anyways.

    You're right, although it seems completely random. At lower levels the refine rate is somewhat equal to base attack rate (e.g. claws attack at 1.43 aps, axes attack at .83 aps. So axes have 72% higher base attack and refine for roughly that amount more also). Assuming aps doesn't change it keeps them roughly on par with each other.

    At around Lunar the refine rate for lower aps weapons becomes disproportionate. New developers seemed to follow no particular algorithm for refine rate. Claws/daggers/swords refine better while axes don't keep the aps:refine ratio. But it's not 58% (.83/1.43) less either. So claws will catch up in dps as they're refined.

    Then the introduced sins. Sins have many advantages, but one huge advantage was daggers have a slower base attack speed so they gave them a larger base attack and a larger refine rate. Would keep them on par if they didn't increase their aps but they can still hit 5.0 too, but with an even harder hitting weapon and an even higher refine rate.

    Then they introduced G16 and it seems like rather than lower dagger refine rate they raised claws refine rate to be the same as daggers at 1.25 aps. Basically, claws got a bump.

    Axes and magic weapons actually refine the same, I believe. Most melee classes, like aps barbs have sills with "base weapon damage" or "100% weapon damage + xxxx value" while casters get skills that do 200-300% damage because of their channeling and cast time, so casters get a little bit more from their refines when using skills.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    They don't, and never have. Been a long while, but think it's in the 7X% rate of fist refinement vs. BM's other weapons (wanna say 72%)

    EDIT: For claws/fists anyways.

    Interesting, I read it somewhere and never questioned <.<. Note to self, always double check the information <.<. Though I was partially right it seems, refine rates play a part, though not like I thought.
    Trolling Sid since So Hot :o
  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    You're right, although it seems completely random. At lower levels the refine rate is somewhat equal to base attack rate (e.g. claws attack at 1.43 aps, axes attack at .83 aps. So axes have 72% higher base attack and refine for roughly that amount more also). Assuming aps doesn't change it keeps them roughly on par with each other.

    Meant claws refine 72% compared to the others, which means axes would refine 1/.72 hihger = for 138.8% higher refine if you're finding axes refine boost over claws/fists. Also the highest APS of axe type weapon is a .91, so for comparison purposes I usually go with that. The only issue would be in areas where the types are limited, though I think Nirvy and such removes that.
  • VKnightV - Lost City
    VKnightV - Lost City Posts: 381 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    APS barb with G16 claws/fists is tankier than sin but deals less dmg. Id call aps barb balanced compared to aps sin or BM.

    Str barb though? The problem here is low base attack speed of axes/whatever you are using. Obviously smaller dph requires higher dps for balance but problem is garnet shards and equal refining rates. While imo shards should be the same, fists/claws/daggers should of never have been set to same refine rate as axes. And attack speed should of been % based increase, not flat time between attacks based as it doesnt treat weapon types equally.

    I think this is ultimately PvE build vs PvP build, least among barbs. I dont think every build should be absolutely equal on everything. APS barb has clearly less defenses, more restrictions on gear and lacking dph compared to str barbs. Clawbarbs are also mostly stationary for dps. For PvE, apsing on bosses, all these weaknesses of build are irrelevant after certain point of refines/shards.



    then all ur point so far is pretty much fail

    you guys talk off all the coin you guys invested and yet fail to see how **** up aps screws with balance cost wise and pve.

    1st you guys try to defend ur costly build with coin

    then when i say fien if i put same coin on my build i woudl do the same u come with something like low speed with axes.

    then u admit u use a hax system to get the most of it and ur coin is moot and u aknowldge aps is hax.

    otherwise same coin would make all classes have same benefit.
  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    It isnt a problem of balance till we are talking bout massive APS. And really, low APS it`s fairly irrelevant. I myself wouldnt care jack`s **** if I have APS with axes, there are simply so many other more relevant stats with such weapon...

    Not reposting the whole thing.

    ... Yeah, I think I deserve to solo it quicker than veno with a herc.

    Ps. I see you didnt follow your own advice, a shame.

    Honestly, the phlegm you continue to spew to defend your biased claims continues to make less and less sense. You keep trying to use flawed math to prove an invalid argument and quite frankly repeatedly pointing out your flawed logic has gotten beyond tiring. In fact what I actually left up of your original post says far more than that entire wall you put up.

    As far as BP is concerned, casters should get it for melee attacks, they don't, and even if they did it would be a sad joke. I'm not going to say much more about it than that. I only brought it up because you kept avoiding the topic even though it is a factor when comparing balance between classes.
    The point is, at end game the difference in stat point modifier formula has bigger and bigger effect on relative dmg multiplier between classes. With R999 set bonuses, etc. The relative damage multiplier is even higher between R999 psy and R999 sin, let alone BMs/barbs who need both str and dex.

    How many times do I have to say it? R9S3 R999 R9RR whatever you want to call it IS INHERINTLY BROKEN! Of course its going to create imbalance. It's supposed to! What better way to get egotistical and insecure players to buy CS gear? Despite constantly pointing this out, you continue to try and use it to support your broken math. Even then, your desire to leave APS out of your claims with the psy vs. sin shows just how badly you are failing at making your argument. Do psys do more damage than sins per attack? Of course they do! Even w/o 4 or 5 aps, with just base daggers sins get roughly 1.5 attacks per second to the psy's one (with - Chan), not to mention critical bonuses from wolf emblem and that dex stat mages "don't need". Not enough? Let's not forget that the sin can actually reach the psy without getting attacked due to stealth, and stun lock him from countering while APSing. Don't want to use APS? It's stupid? Only spam skills? Fine, Chill of the deep, you just increased all your attack damage by roughly 30% (35 if sage) and with a 30-50% crit and wolf emblem, that's nothing to shake a stick at. Dare I also mention that barb buffs and wizzie buffs further increase physical weapon attack damage while there is no group buff that increases magic damage? *GASP* melee's have it so unfair b:sad

    As a for the barbs, lets look at thier HP. A barb usually has 15-20k Hp, non CS geared and outside of kitty form, as opposed to the possible 10k of the psy, also non CS. Even if the psy were to put as many stat points into vit as a barb they would still have significantly less HP. This is because barbs get a higher ratio of HP to vit as opposed to casters who get slightly more than half of what a barb gets per vit point. Let's also ignore that HA refines give more HP than AA refines. I notice you don't mention this anywhere in your "maths" about balance. Instead you want them to nerf the Mag damage bonus casters get while leaving your precious barb Vit bonuses alone. That will go over well. Let's also give both the sin and barb anti one shot skills while we're at it b:chuckle Oh wait, they actually did that.

    Lastly, your ignorant statements on venos. 3-1 possible? For 9x up yes, with lots of deaths, which is why some venos took clerics as insurance, (though that's not really soloing now is it) and if they weren't duel clienting (against ToS back then) they would usually have to split with the cleric at the end. 3-2 and 3-3? Despite the fact one has to be lev 100 to open 3-3, a rare achievement in those days, if a veno was willing to fight through all the mobs to get to the bosses, (we're talking several hours here) most of those bosses cannot be beaten by even a lev 100 herc, and that is back before they increased the difficulty and lowered the drop rate to counter APSers, a group that had a much easier time tearing through 3-2 and 3-3s and making much more coin than a soloing veno could ever dare to dream. I don't want to call you a liar, but, yah....

    Comparing what a herc cost in 2008 to what APS gear cost in 2010 after packs came out is just stupid and wrong. Your also conveniently leaving out that while APS gear worked well in both PVE and PVP, hercs sucked in PVP and if venos wanted a broken PVP pet they needed to throw down another 200 gold for a nix. 400 gold and we haven't even gotten to the cost of training and upgrading skills. Not factoring in time, its about another 5 million coin, ALOT back before APS caused massive inflation in coins on the servers and raised the gold market, driving up the cost of veno CS pets as well. Throwing your N3 gear in there while you're at it? I don't think I need to say any more on the subject.
  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Comparing what a herc cost in 2008 to what APS gear cost in 2010 after packs came out is just stupid and wrong. Your also conveniently leaving out that while APS gear worked well in both PVE and PVP, hercs sucked in PVP and if venos wanted a broken PVP pet they needed to throw down another 200 gold for a nix. 400 gold and we haven't even gotten to the cost of training and upgrading skills. Not factoring in time, its about another 5 million coin, ALOT back before APS caused massive inflation in coins on the servers and raised the gold market, driving up the cost of veno CS pets as well. Throwing your N3 gear in there while you're at it? I don't think I need to say any more on the subject.

    Hercs didn't exist in our game when it came out, pretty sure it wasn't out until 2009. And that was the same year gold had its major inflation, not because of APS (which can't inflate the coins in game, only transfer), but because of the packs. And getting the items was expensive, due to rarity of the items compared to the amount of people who wanted them. It wasn't even until 2010 that most of the late comer BMs and archer even started going wholesale into APS for the purposes of farming: which is around the cost he mentioned.

    Man, it's like reading a Wikipedia in here for the level of factual information so many are utilizing for their proof.
  • VKnightV - Lost City
    VKnightV - Lost City Posts: 381 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    honestly, The Phlegm You Continue To Spew To Defend Your Biased Claims Continues To Make Less And Less Sense. You Keep Trying To Use Flawed Math To Prove An Invalid Argument And Quite Frankly Repeatedly Pointing Out Your Flawed Logic Has Gotten Beyond Tiring. In Fact What I Actually Left Up Of Your Original Post Says Far More Than That Entire Wall You Put Up.

    As Far As Bp Is Concerned, Casters Should Get It For Melee Attacks, They Don't, And Even If They Did It Would Be A Sad Joke. I'm Not Going To Say Much More About It Than That. I Only Brought It Up Because You Kept Avoiding The Topic Even Though It Is A Factor When Comparing Balance Between Classes.



    How Many Times Do I Have To Say It? R9s3 R999 R9rr Whatever You Want To Call It Is Inherintly Broken! Of Course Its Going To Create Imbalance. It's Supposed To! What Better Way To Get Egotistical And Insecure Players To Buy Cs Gear? Despite Constantly Pointing This Out, You Continue To Try And Use It To Support Your Broken Math. Even Then, Your Desire To Leave Aps Out Of Your Claims With The Psy Vs. Sin Shows Just How Badly You Are Failing At Making Your Argument. Do Psys Do More Damage Than Sins Per Attack? Of Course They Do! Even W/o 4 Or 5 Aps, With Just Base Daggers Sins Get Roughly 1.5 Attacks Per Second To The Psy's One (with - Chan), Not To Mention Critical Bonuses From Wolf Emblem And That Dex Stat Mages "don't Need". Not Enough? Let's Not Forget That The Sin Can Actually Reach The Psy Without Getting Attacked Due To Stealth, And Stun Lock Him From Countering While Apsing. Don't Want To Use Aps? It's Stupid? Only Spam Skills? Fine, Chill Of The Deep, You Just Increased All Your Attack Damage By Roughly 30% (35 If Sage) And With A 30-50% Crit And Wolf Emblem, That's Nothing To Shake A Stick At. Dare I Also Mention That Barb Buffs And Wizzie Buffs Further Increase Physical Weapon Attack Damage While There Is No Group Buff That Increases Magic Damage? *gasp* Melee's Have It So Unfair B:sad

    As A For The Barbs, Lets Look At Thier Hp. A Barb Usually Has 15-20k Hp, Non Cs Geared And Outside Of Kitty Form, As Opposed To The Possible 10k Of The Psy, Also Non Cs. Even If The Psy Were To Put As Many Stat Points Into Vit As A Barb They Would Still Have Significantly Less Hp. This Is Because Barbs Get A Higher Ratio Of Hp To Vit As Opposed To Casters Who Get Slightly More Than Half Of What A Barb Gets Per Vit Point. Let's Also Ignore That Ha Refines Give More Hp Than Aa Refines. I Notice You Don't Mention This Anywhere In Your "maths" About Balance. Instead You Want Them To Nerf The Mag Damage Bonus Casters Get While Leaving Your Precious Barb Vit Bonuses Alone. That Will Go Over Well. Let's Also Give Both The Sin And Barb Anti One Shot Skills While We're At It B:chuckle Oh Wait, They Actually Did That.

    Lastly, Your Ignorant Statements On Venos. 3-1 Possible? For 9x Up Yes, With Lots Of Deaths, Which Is Why Some Venos Took Clerics As Insurance, (though That's Not Really Soloing Now Is It) And If They Weren't Duel Clienting (against Tos Back Then) They Would Usually Have To Split With The Cleric At The End. 3-2 And 3-3? Despite The Fact One Has To Be Lev 100 To Open 3-3, A Rare Achievement In Those Days, If A Veno Was Willing To Fight Through All The Mobs To Get To The Bosses, (we're Talking Several Hours Here) Most Of Those Bosses Cannot Be Beaten By Even A Lev 100 Herc, And That Is Back Before They Increased The Difficulty And Lowered The Drop Rate To Counter Apsers, A Group That Had A Much Easier Time Tearing Through 3-2 And 3-3s And Making Much More Coin Than A Soloing Veno Could Ever Dare To Dream. I Don't Want To Call You A Liar, But, Yah....

    Comparing What A Herc Cost In 2008 To What Aps Gear Cost In 2010 After Packs Came Out Is Just Stupid And Wrong. Your Also Conveniently Leaving Out That While Aps Gear Worked Well In Both Pve And Pvp, Hercs Sucked In Pvp And If Venos Wanted A Broken Pvp Pet They Needed To Throw Down Another 200 Gold For A Nix. 400 Gold And We Haven't Even Gotten To The Cost Of Training And Upgrading Skills. Not Factoring In Time, Its About Another 5 Million Coin, Alot Back Before Aps Caused Massive Inflation In Coins On The Servers And Raised The Gold Market, Driving Up The Cost Of Veno Cs Pets As Well. Throwing Your N3 Gear In There While You're At It? I Don't Think I Need To Say Any More On The Subject.





    +10000
  • VKnightV - Lost City
    VKnightV - Lost City Posts: 381 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Hercs didn't exist in our game when it came out, pretty sure it wasn't out until 2009. And that was the same year gold had its major inflation, not because of APS (which can't inflate the coins in game, only transfer), but because of the packs. And getting the items was expensive, due to rarity of the items compared to the amount of people who wanted them. It wasn't even until 2010 that most of the late comer BMs and archer even started going wholesale into APS for the purposes of farming: which is around the cost he mentioned.

    Man, it's like reading a Wikipedia in here for the level of factual information so many are utilizing for their proof.





    and yet there no proof of how to make a simular melee barb build with the same cost of these non so haxed aps build they so wish to defend.

    all i want is for these player to admit that aps is pure hax for pve and farming purpose

    and that all the qq wish come from aps is true.

    then and only then will i be happy to discus this purify and magic muli these ppl are feeling is unjust.


    let me tell you something

    these pve build do matter cos the ymake mone yand money can make pvp build for sero cost once u have it.

    so it does **** up balance


    now all go and make a formula for everyone to be god in pve lol
  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Hercs didn't exist in our game when it came out, pretty sure it wasn't out until 2009. And that was the same year gold had its major inflation, not because of APS (which can't inflate the coins in game, only transfer), but because of the packs. And getting the items was expensive, due to rarity of the items compared to the amount of people who wanted them. It wasn't even until 2010 that most of the late comer BMs and archer even started going wholesale into APS for the purposes of farming: which is around the cost he mentioned.

    Man, it's like reading a Wikipedia in here for the level of factual information so many are utilizing for their proof.

    I admit, I am going from memory when it comes to the time hercs came out. Five years of playing this game off and on does tend to make things run together. If it was out in 2009 I know it was out in early 2009 (Spring I believe though it could have been summer) and the herc/nix issues were well established before the first anniversary packs came out in September. Regardless the difference in the economies of early 2009 before anni packs and late 2010 when APS was all over the place was drastic. APS did have a hand in this. After APS became more popular pack demand increased and the small packages were suddenly far less reviled. Aside from TT's, which dropped mirage stones as well as mats, APSers also farmed DQ's. I even remember a thread where there was argument about how APS could outkill a chain of mobs over any other DD. In fact many bots plaguing the servers right now are APS toons. Even if they didn't farm DQ's other classes ended up having to since, as I mentioned earlier, they got cut out of the farming circle. Throw in the desire to hyper a new toon to 100 so one could use the APS = profit formula more quickly and you have an even further demand for gold. In fact there was a time hyper stone sales dictated the gold market and APS wannabees were huge consumers of said stones. Also, gold sellers realized that if they could hold out for more coins from the desperate APSers they could buy more mats from them, further increasing gold prices. It didn't help the in game economy that the prices for said mats were dropping drastically, further hurting casual farmers, as more and more competitors entered the APS market hoping to make quick coin. I'm not sure entirely when the whole cycle of coins for Hypers for APS for Farming for Gold for Packs for P2W gear eventually stopped. I only remember the next huge hit to the gold market was rank sales for the new R8 gear.
  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I admit, I am going from memory when it comes to the time hercs came out. Five years of playing this game off and on does tend to make things run together. If it was out in 2009 I know it was out in early 2009 (Spring I believe though it could have been summer) and the herc/nix issues were well established before the first anniversary packs came out in September. Regardless the difference in the economies of early 2009 before anni packs and late 2010 when APS was all over the place was drastic. APS did have a hand in this. After APS became more popular pack demand increased and the small packages were suddenly far less reviled. Aside from TT's, which dropped mirage stones as well as mats, APSers also farmed DQ's. I even remember a thread where there was argument about how APS could outkill a chain of mobs over any other DD. In fact many bots plaguing the servers right now are APS toons. Even if they didn't farm DQ's other classes ended up having to since, as I mentioned earlier, they got cut out of the farming circle. Throw in the desire to hyper a new toon to 100 so one could use the APS = profit formula more quickly and you have an even further demand for gold. In fact there was a time hyper stone sales dictated the gold market and APS wannabees were huge consumers of said stones. Also, gold sellers realized that if they could hold out for more coins from the desperate APSers they could buy more mats from them, further increasing gold prices. It didn't help the in game economy that the prices for said mats were dropping drastically, further hurting casual farmers, as more and more competitors entered the APS market hoping to make quick coin. I'm not sure entirely when the whole cycle of coins for Hypers for APS for Farming for Gold for Packs for P2W gear eventually stopped. I only remember the next huge hit to the gold market was rank sales for the new R8 gear.

    Again, APS can't inflate the cost of gold, unless the bosses being farmed themselves dropped tons of coins instead of mats. They transfer coins by someone giving the coins to the APSer for the mats. The problem was the first anni packs were ridiculously good drop rates, with a Best Luck Token being found about 1 in every 20. That flooded the heck out of the market with constant 5 million coin streams. That was when it started going up to 600K per gold, as opposed to the 200K caused by perfect hammer/chest of coins inflation.

    And hercs being out in spring actually hinders cost comparison being in your favor, except for a CSer point of view. Because 200 gold does sound alot higher than 20 million coins, which is what it was equivalent to when herc came out. And that could be farmed in normal grind leveling in less than a month pretty easily.

    And the cost of the gear going up was due to more money being in the game from the Best Lucks. With guaranteed profit from early openings, and reselling the tokens for all the trade items, until gold price went higher you were guaranteed profit even without selling the big ticket items. Gold had to go up, until there was some risk involved in opening the pack itself.

    DQ bots wouldn't need APS to be efficient, it depends on mob dispersion on spawning more than anything. Getting a high mob concentration and spamming skills away would work just as effective, only thing to worry about is picking it up. And straight DD (sins didn't exist then, so going with BM) was not as effective as a bot that could AoE for maximum drops. Trust me, I did both leveling up on my BM back then. And while Fist was a generally more enjoyable lazy way to do it, it didn't mean more effective.

    Also, no one was really getting Deicides when the packs first came out anyways. It was either HS, Pan Gu, or Neon Purgatory that everyone was getting. So even if on your server the price of gold was increasing due to those specific items only, it would actually disprove APS was responsible. Again, the vast majority did not even switch until around Marchish of 2010 to APS.

    Hyper FCC leveling didn't come around into vogue right away either. No one wanted low levels in the group, so it was mostly level yourself up to 85 and then FCC hyper. The running thing came about around a year later or so. There might have been a few, but the hypers were in so demand as a better version of the XP scroll for people doing AoE leveling in between Gammas and Deltas.
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Honestly, the phlegm you continue to spew to defend your biased claims continues to make less and less sense. You keep trying to use flawed math to prove an invalid argument and quite frankly repeatedly pointing out your flawed logic has gotten beyond tiring. In fact what I actually left up of your original post says far more than that entire wall you put up.

    When you cut things out of context, they seem interesting. I myself dont understand the heck is the point you are trying to argue with cutting my post like that. Flawed math? You can see the whole work in my post. If you think something is wrong, point it out. If you still keep insisting on flaws when you cant point any, I have to assume you cant find anything wrong with it and are only calling it flawed to not seem like an idiot.
    As far as BP is concerned, casters should get it for melee attacks, they don't, and even if they did it would be a sad joke. I'm not going to say much more about it than that. I only brought it up because you kept avoiding the topic even though it is a factor when comparing balance between classes.

    Avoided? BP is broken only in fairly limited set of parameters, which include triple sparked, highly refined weapon, massively stacked aps and stationary target. Give casters/archers BP which works with their ranged attacks and we can draw line over triple sparked and stationary target, almost forgot massively stacked APS.


    How many times do I have to say it? R9S3 R999 R9RR whatever you want to call it IS INHERINTLY BROKEN! Of course its going to create imbalance. It's supposed to! What better way to get egotistical and insecure players to buy CS gear? Despite constantly pointing this out, you continue to try and use it to support your broken math. Even then, your desire to leave APS out of your claims with the psy vs. sin shows just how badly you are failing at making your argument. Do psys do more damage than sins per attack? Of course they do! Even w/o 4 or 5 aps, with just base daggers sins get roughly 1.5 attacks per second to the psy's one (with - Chan), not to mention critical bonuses from wolf emblem and that dex stat mages "don't need". Not enough? Let's not forget that the sin can actually reach the psy without getting attacked due to stealth, and stun lock him from countering while APSing. Don't want to use APS? It's stupid? Only spam skills? Fine, Chill of the deep, you just increased all your attack damage by roughly 30% (35 if sage) and with a 30-50% crit and wolf emblem, that's nothing to shake a stick at. Dare I also mention that barb buffs and wizzie buffs further increase physical weapon attack damage while there is no group buff that increases magic damage? *GASP* melee's have it so unfair b:sad

    Obviously R999 is broken but it should be equal between classes. R999 shouldnt create imbalance between equally geared players as it is doing right now.

    Attack speed has nothing to do with damage multiplier from stat points. I could wear axes on sin and Id still have the same unfair stat point damage multiplier as I would if I used daggers. Compared to casters, obviously. I could wear a pataka for all it matters and I still wouldnt get the same stat point multiplier.

    APS is accounted in skill damage, the raw damage and multipliers on skills for casters. As yes, physical classes do indeed hit faster than casters. It doesnt account for the current trend where skill spamming has become the norm for PvP as non casters have clearly lower skill damage, though they have similar channel/cast times to weaker magic attacks from casters.

    I find it amusing you argue how sin is stronger than psy if those two would encounter. Really the only way non R9 sin could kill well geared psy was locking it down with stun/freeze and spark IGing as if you didnt use immunity, you would simply silence yourself and miss your chance in killing psy. Now you try that and purify allows psy to just run out of it. Only way sin stands a chance now is if sin spams skills with zerk wep in which case aps is absolutely irrelevant.

    And you know, clerics got squad buff which does exactly that, increases magic attack and by more than barbs titans too.
    As a for the barbs, lets look at thier HP. A barb usually has 15-20k Hp, non CS geared and outside of kitty form, as opposed to the possible 10k of the psy, also non CS. Even if the psy were to put as many stat points into vit as a barb they would still have significantly less HP. This is because barbs get a higher ratio of HP to vit as opposed to casters who get slightly more than half of what a barb gets per vit point. Let's also ignore that HA refines give more HP than AA refines. I notice you don't mention this anywhere in your "maths" about balance. Instead you want them to nerf the Mag damage bonus casters get while leaving your precious barb Vit bonuses alone. That will go over well. Let's also give both the sin and barb anti one shot skills while we're at it b:chuckle Oh wait, they actually did that.

    So you are saying ranged classes should have the same survival abilities as melee classes? Did somebody drop you when you were a baby?
    Lastly, your ignorant statements on venos. 3-1 possible? For 9x up yes, with lots of deaths, which is why some venos took clerics as insurance, (though that's not really soloing now is it) and if they weren't duel clienting (against ToS back then) they would usually have to split with the cleric at the end. 3-2 and 3-3? Despite the fact one has to be lev 100 to open 3-3, a rare achievement in those days, if a veno was willing to fight through all the mobs to get to the bosses, (we're talking several hours here) most of those bosses cannot be beaten by even a lev 100 herc, and that is back before they increased the difficulty and lowered the drop rate to counter APSers, a group that had a much easier time tearing through 3-2 and 3-3s and making much more coin than a soloing veno could ever dare to dream. I don't want to call you a liar, but, yah....

    Simply cause you are a trash of a veno doesnt mean everybody else is. Lots of deaths my ***, didnt see him or his herc die once in old 3-1. And while highest TTs could of taken hours, cant bother to argue the point, they also had a lot higher mat prices. And in fact, I did get pretty much all his TT mats when he quit, there were all kinds of them(including emperor, steelation and arma drops). Not only were mats worth more, gold was worth far less. Yet those are convenient facts to forget when you argue how APS make coin venos dont dream of - El Oh El.
    Comparing what a herc cost in 2008 to what APS gear cost in 2010 after packs came out is just stupid and wrong. Your also conveniently leaving out that while APS gear worked well in both PVE and PVP, hercs sucked in PVP and if venos wanted a broken PVP pet they needed to throw down another 200 gold for a nix. 400 gold and we haven't even gotten to the cost of training and upgrading skills. Not factoring in time, its about another 5 million coin, ALOT back before APS caused massive inflation in coins on the servers and raised the gold market, driving up the cost of veno CS pets as well. Throwing your N3 gear in there while you're at it? I don't think I need to say any more on the subject.

    APS and gold market my ***. It was first raised with introduction of one million coin boxes to bit under 200k. Then it was packs which raised the prices from there. It got us to 500k+ gold if I am not completely wrong. It also had little to do with APS - packs had fairly high npc value and end game gear which was worth, even w/o aps, worth quite a bit. After that I think it raised with pack sales and 1m was broken with 72g R8 sale.

    Bigger cause for inflation is veno grinding DQ than sin soloing TT. Well, after mirage abuse was fixed. This is because sin doesnt generate much coin, only mats and in fact repairs take fair amount of coin out of economy. While grinding does the opposite, little repair costs and DQ + coin drops bring new coin into economy. TT mats are worth X amount of coin but only from players, not from NPCs.
    Trolling Sid since So Hot :o
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Just gonna jump in here and say that Hercules and Phoenix were released with The Lost Empire expansion in PWI which happened around December 2008. I could be a little off on the actual month but it was around that time.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Just gonna jump in here and say that Hercules and Phoenix were released with The Lost Empire expansion in PWI which happened around December 2008. I could be a little off on the actual month but it was around that time.

    I know OHT was released the first week or 2 of Dec 08 during the X2 week, so if it also had legendary pets that'd be the time frame. So a month before 2009, when gold would actually go for 90K at times.
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I know OHT was released the first week or 2 of Dec 08 during the X2 week, so if it also had legendary pets that'd be the time frame. So a month before 2009, when gold would actually go for 90K at times.


    Yeah, you're right. The Lost Empire brought OHT, Chrono chain quest, lvl79 skills, Legendary pets and Sage/Demon Cultivation as seen here.

    Enough of the off topic though b:chuckle back on topic now!
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★