Is 100 magic per damage multiplier still fair?

VKnightV - Lost City

and here another class wish uses fist as if they were dd and wierd enough there no mention of being solo or dd on there description at all wierrd.



Barbarian

Barbarians have evolved from pandas, lions, and other beasts.

The Barbarian is a natural-born warrior on the battlefield, and is comfortable taking hits and returning the punishment. These fighters are also capable of shape-shifting into white tiger form in order to maximize their physical defense and damage mitigation. Barbarians can allocate their stats a variety of ways, either building for maximum defense or maximum damage.

Type:

Tank, Melee Physical Damage Dealer

Weapon:

Dual Swords, Dual Blades, Blades, Swords, Scythes, Spears, Clubs, Poleaxes, Sledgehammers, Dual Hand Axe, Dual Hammers, Fist Weapons

WnbTank - Archosaur

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

and here another class wish uses fist as if they were dd and wierd enough there no mention of being solo or dd on there description at all wierrd.



Barbarian

Barbarians have evolved from pandas, lions, and other beasts.

The Barbarian is a natural-born warrior on the battlefield, and is comfortable taking hits and returning the punishment. These fighters are also capable of shape-shifting into white tiger form in order to maximize their physical defense and damage mitigation. Barbarians can allocate their stats a variety of ways, either building for maximum defense or maximum damage.

Type:

Tank, Melee Physical Damage Dealer

Weapon:

Dual Swords, Dual Blades, Blades, Swords, Scythes, Spears, Clubs, Poleaxes, Sledgehammers, Dual Hand Axe, Dual Hammers, Fist Weapons

But keep on spamming, I go make myself some noodles.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear

I wanted to stop but I just couldn't ignore your outright ignorance in your newest post replying to mine. Regardless of what you post as a result this will be my last response to you.

First of all your corrected equation is still wrong from two responses ago. I didn't mention it last time because I felt it irrelevant, but since you like math so much here you go.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

0.20 > X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X )
0.2 > X / ( 1.9 + X ) // ( 1.9 + X)
0.38 + 0.2X > X
0.38 > 0.8X
0.38 > 4/5X // x 5
1.9 > 4X // :4
0.475 > X

We get X, which is damage multiplier from dex.

X/150 = 0.475 // x 150
X = 71.25

.20 > 71.25 / (1 + 0.9 + 71.25)
.20 > 71.25 / 73.15
.20 > .97?

Also: X < 0.474 but X = 71.25? You probably switched the sign by accident but it doesn't make your formula any more correct.

Also using 90% instead of the 1.9 coefficient we still get around 0.475 > 0.526. Yah, pro math major here folks, and this is his SECOND go round. I hope your not going into a field that will require you to actually use your "maths".

Here's another one.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I didnt think of checking bows, seems like they refine higher. But this is really simple matter to clarify. We can change the sage sin into sage archer easily, just adding another 60% of weapon damage(BA). 5.63 + 0.6 = 6.23

Relative difference between multipliers ( 8.375 - 6.23 ) / 6.23 x 100% = 34.4%

( 1387(bow) - 1125 (magic wep) ) / 1125 x 100% = 23.3%

Using magic sword gain as norm we get 100% or 1. Or more like 1 x 1 = 1

100% - 34.4% = 65.6% and 100% + 23.3% = 123.3%

0.656 x 1.233 = 0.81 or 81%.

100% - 81% = 19%

Putting it simple, caster gains 19% more from refines than archer, despite bow refining better.

Adding 60% weapon damage? Why? sin mastery is 90%. Archer mastery is 75%. -15% = 60%? If you go off base +12 weapon damage for S3 Dagger vs. S3 Bow AND include the sage masteries on each. Max dam of daggers is 1956 + (1956x0.9) = 3716 Bow is 3797 + (3797x0.75) = 6644. 6644-3716 = 2928. 2928/6644 is a .44 or a 44% difference, not 60%, and if we factor in stats and level bonuses the difference becomes even more, so that can't be it either. Where are your numbers coming from? Are you just making them up as you go along? I gave you the fact I didn't understand why you wrote the equations the way you did last time, though the math was still wrong. But this? Since math is all you argue with I figured you would take it more seriously, but then your arguing R999breaks the game but APS doesn't, so what should I expect.


Second: Your agreeing with my points in several of your posts yet your still trolling them? For example...

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

The way of using +25% modifier as last is really the only way of doing it. Reason for this is obvious, in order to deal 25% more damage, you have to have damage w/o mastery before multiplying them with 1.25. This can be dodged with associative law and multiplying the multiplier. One thing this doesnt account for is skill damage, those have to be 1.25 multiplied too as otherwise they wouldnt gain the 25% increase. Using 25% increase on multiplier doesnt happen in damage calculation PWI does I believe but it can be used there to compare total effect of part of the dmg calculation. If it was unclear what I meant, I believe it goes along these lines damage = ([Weapon damage, refines, shards, rings x multipliers] + skill damage) x 1.25 (mastery) x Crit x Attack levels..

I was the one that explained about the +25% for casters being added at the end of damage equation yet you argue like I said the opposite. Why? Are you only proving how you don't bother to read my posts so you can do more of your pointless "maths"?

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I was talking bout what I thought was obvious detail to a caster. Lets quote wizzie gush and bold relevant part:

"Required Cultivation　Spiritual Initiate
Force a powerful water column to spew up from the
ground, dealing base magic damage, 55% of weapon damage,
and 55.0 damage as Water damage.
Has a 65% chance to slow the target by 40% for 5.3 seconds."

As casters have higher refine rates than non casters `cept for the bows from last paragraph. Well have plain higher damage than non casters, they gain more per each % point. Not forgetting trend where casters have higher weapon damage modifiers than non casters, non casters dont really have any. Archer for example has 6 skills (Blood Vow, Take Aim, Deadly Shot, BoA, Whisper Shot & Arrow Inferno[uses weird term gear attack, rings?]). Compared to Wizard which has it on basically every offensive skill, might of been 1 or 2 where it didnt appear.

But no, you are again incorrect. Spark works as following, using same toons we has earlier.

Sage Psy

X = 1 + 5 + 0.7 + 7 = 13.7
Y = 13.7 + 0.25 x 13.7 = 17.125

Sage Sin

X = 1 + 3.33 + 0.9 + 0.4 + 5 = 10.63

Relative difference is now:

( 17.125 - 10.63 ) / 10.63 = 61.1%

After googling I found spark+++ gave 700% more magic attack.

For non casters it was 500% physical attack.

This isnt weapon attack but ultimately very similar. This means also rings gets bonus. Though I would find it interesting there are talk bout of weapon attack in descriptions also, I doubt PWI would create overly complicated damage calculation. I assume it`s simply translation weirdness and even if it was that there are both magic attack(with rings) & weapon attack (w/o rings), it wouldnt make much of a difference relatively. Either way, the sins of bout doubling their DPH sounds right trough my own personal experience and I would assume magic attack would work along the same lines.

You also prove time and time again you don't bother to do research. Last time you left out bows and said all gear save for daggers refined the same, now your saying refines are higher for mages. Last I checked +30 for axes and +30 for mag sword for 1 star orb was still the same.

+ 700% magic attack? I WISH! My +900% Magic attack for sage veno would own! Even if I only have 300 Mag. I pulled this off PWI calc for you. Your favorite website.

Celestial Eruption
Skill level1
Necessary level of Player: 89
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad.
Discharges three Sparks to recover 20% of your maximum MP, add 700% weapon damage, and reduce all damage taken by 25% for 15 seconds. Grants invincibility for 3 seconds after the discharge.

So... no we do not get +7 to our correlation score. *edit* Actually we do, but you explained it incorrectly, especially towards the end, which is what threw me off

I also explained in a previous post that the equation itself is inherently flawed. It does not take into account how buffs react or how the masteries react differently. Nor is it a suitable display of total damage between the classes as it still leaves out several factors.

For example, both the barb buff and the cleric buff are cancelled by sparking. This means your math is wrong before you even look at the equation. Again you didn't research.

Weapon masteries with melees are factored into the weapon damage itself then multiplied by the coefficient. They aren't both added to it. Then the + 5 damage is added after the score of the previous is determined.

((1 + (1 x 0.9) x 3.3) + 5 is how the spark damage is actually equated. I ran this formula with a sin on PWI calc with 0 refine unsharded N3 daggers. Wouldn't let me add the barb buff at the end as the part in parenthises is our total attack damage and both the barb buff and the spark damage fill the place for the variable currently taken by spark damage.

With the barb buff it would just be adding 40% of what's in prarenthesis to itself.

PWI calc dosn't have an option for spell masteries as these are added at the end of the entire formula instead of just to weapon damage and attack damage, so I can't run numbers to try a formula but I would guess it runs like this.

((1 x 5) +7) + ((1 x 5) +7) x 0.25

Neither of these equations take into account leveling bonuses by the way. Another factor to add but since I don't know the bonuses to each class I will simply leave it as that.

Point is the math isn't as simple as you make it out to be, especially if you don't even properly take into account rules with variables you actually include.*edit*

Also, skill damage doesn't transter across sparks unless its weapon damage. The bonuses for weapon damage in the skill description would apply, the extra damage of the skill itself would not. If it did, oh how I would spam the **** out of venomous scarab whenever I met a R999 Barb. And Parasitic Nova b:dirty ,especially with a 900% damage increase across the board. Go Go White Teas! b:cool

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

While making pretty equations on theory level is simple, they have to be applied to real world or PWI in this case. While in theory gear requirements dont matter, in reality they do and not accounting for how some classes have ultimately less points available for damage will certainly affect the damage they are dealing.

First of all, making pretty equations on theory is EXACTLY what you keep doing. Real World and PWI? Really? Ok, here's the thing, there are gear limitations. There are also ridiculous amounts of stat points being thrown around at high levels, and not just on R999 gear. All OHT and 3 Star Craftables come with random bonuses, as does the N2 and N3 gear. Most people have said archers can get around 500 Dex easy same for Sins. Arguing that your max damage stat score is limited by gear works up to a point, but if your working on damage correlations based on numbers alone then some things have to remain constant, in this case the stats your putting in to the modifier. Arguing to nerf the damage correlation because you cannot reach the same stat points in Dex as that Wizzie can MAG due to gear requirements is a GEAR based argument, NOT a correlation based argument, and if we're going to argue gear then maybe AA classes should have the same % of phys protection from their armor that melees get %magical protection from theirs. If you want to throw in shards and refines your welcome too, but I will point at that's another variable, one of those other factors you tend to ignore.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

If we talk bout dps on high tier aps toons? The combos they use and which offer best dps are fairly well known and ultimately quite easily calculated. Olblaze and his genie thread is great example of this regarding sins.

And really, shorter bursts I would suspect casters get really close. I know R9+12 DoT psy held aggro off me in WS cannonfist. Granted I started with purge bow to purge the thing(didnt take long) and I only had N3 + 10. Few things to account for though. First of all, N3 with interval has higher dps than R9 on similar refine. For a fact my sin dealt ultimately the same damage in CoA(same spot, same orbs, 1 spark difference when bosses disappeared) compared to R9+12 DoT sin. One thing Im not sure of if I had +11 on daggers by that time, lets assume I did.

My sin as +10 would of dealt fairly close the dps R9 +12 DoT sin would of, though shorter periods of time are more prone to lucky/unlucky zerks. The psy in question was R9+12 DoT. While my own gear, wasnt on same level as his, my sins gear could perform on level comparable to gear the psy was wearing. If aps was as broken in short bursts as you seem to think, there would of been no question if I had the aggro despite starting later, granted who has the aggro isnt same as who has highest dps. Obviously casters cant generate similar chi and keep up after few sparks but that really is a difference of chi gain, not dps. Im fairly certain aps also deals more dps but the difference is nowhere near what you think it is.

I'm not touching this one, there are so many variables you leave out its not even funny anymore. All class purge bow for the win btw. What's a veno? Yes its a proc, woop, shoot someone enough times, it will drop. I'm sure it procs faster with -int than the 30 sec It takes for my purge to cool down and the 3 sec it takes me to cast it. Not to mention only 10 meter range.b:surrender Purify on R9 weapon is broken (I do believe it is as I've said before) but this isn't... -_-

You're veno math is ok and I'll leave it at that. I would like to point out that it is still a difference though, another variable to consider, and that's before taking the gimped damage of our skills into account compared to other casters. Another hasty mistake I'll admit, but the fact itself is besides the point. I brought up the differences in veno damage vs. other caster damage to point out factors you were not taking into account. You still haven't tried to even consider these factors, you just throw up more pointless equations focused on only one variable.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

But to stop derailing. Honestly, you make it seem like its hard to determine aps dps accounting skills/etc. Its still quite easy, Olblaze has thread on sin subforums counting best genie & skill combinations for dps. Accounting non aps non casters is quite another thing though but they really arent problem regarding this. By what I mean they are weaker than aps players and their weakness can be no argument for defending casters advantage regarding dps.

Hitting too early on send, oh well. I have given several facts regarding how the other things regarding damage, outside of multiplier, are also favoring casters. Only thing casters really lack in is crit and interval between skills/attacks.

These are perhaps the most ingnorant and insulting of your paragraphs. If you are talking about nerfing coeficients you must include ALL classes and builds, not just APS vs. Nuke. Not only that, you FINALLY get around to admitting that crit and interval are different between casters and non casters yet you still ignore them like they are nothing. You use math to defend your arguments but you don't even understand the basic principles behind it, picking and choosing only those variables you want to attack/defend, while throwing out anything else that may contradict your argument. Fail Troll is FAIL.

VKnightV - Lost City

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wanted to stop but I just couldn't ignore your outright ignorance in your newest post replying to mine. Regardless of what you post as a result this will be my last response to you.

First of all your corrected equation is still wrong from two responses ago. I didn't mention it last time because I felt it irrelevant, but since you like math so much here you go.



.20 > 71.25 / (1 + 0.9 + 71.25)
.20 > 71.25 / 73.15
.20 > .97?

Also: X < 0.474 but X = 71.25? You probably switched the sign by accident but it doesn't make your formula any more correct.

Also using 90% instead of the 1.9 coefficient we still get around 0.475 > 0.526. Yah, pro math major here folks, and this is his SECOND go round. I hope your not going into a field that will require you to actually use your "maths".

Here's another one.



Adding 60% weapon damage? Why? sin mastery is 90%. Archer mastery is 75%. -15% = 60%? If you go off base +12 weapon damage for S3 Dagger vs. S3 Bow AND include the sage masteries on each. Max dam of daggers is 1956 + (1956x0.9) = 3716 Bow is 3797 + (3797x0.75) = 6644. 6644-3716 = 2928. 2928/6644 is a .44 or a 44% difference, not 60%, and if we factor in stats and level bonuses the difference becomes even more, so that can't be it either. Where are your numbers coming from? Are you just making them up as you go along? I gave you the fact I didn't understand why you wrote the equations the way you did last time, though the math was still wrong. But this? Since math is all you argue with I figured you would take it more seriously, but then your arguing R999breaks the game but APS doesn't, so what should I expect.


Second: Your agreeing with my points in several of your posts yet your still trolling them? For example...



I was the one that explained about the +25% for casters being added at the end of damage equation yet you argue like I said the opposite. Why? Are you only proving how you don't bother to read my posts so you can do more of your pointless "maths"?



You also prove time and time again you don't bother to do research. Last time you left out bows and said all gear save for daggers refined the same, now your saying refines are higher for mages. Last I checked +30 for axes and +30 for mag sword for 1 star orb was still the same.

+ 700% magic attack? I WISH! My +900% Magic attack for sage veno would own! Even if I only have 300 Mag. I pulled this off PWI calc for you. Your favorite website.

Celestial Eruption
Skill level1
Necessary level of Player: 89
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad.
Discharges three Sparks to recover 20% of your maximum MP, add 700% weapon damage, and reduce all damage taken by 25% for 15 seconds. Grants invincibility for 3 seconds after the discharge.

So... no, we don't get +7 to our correlation score.

Also, skill damage doesn't transter across sparks unless its weapon damage. The bonuses for weapon damage in the skill description would apply, the extra damage of the skill itself would not. If it did, oh how I would spam the **** out of venomous scarab whenever I met a R999 Barb. And Parasitic Nova b:dirty ,especially with a 900% damage increase across the board. Go Go White Teas! b:cool



First of all, making pretty equations on theory is EXACTLY what you keep doing. Real World and PWI? Really? Ok, here's the thing, there are gear limitations. There are also ridiculous amounts of stat points being thrown around at high levels, and not just on R999 gear. All OHT and 3 Star Craftables come with random bonuses, as does the N2 and N3 gear. Most people have said archers can get around 500 Dex easy same for Sins. Arguing that your max damage stat score is limited by gear works up to a point, but if your working on damage correlations based on numbers alone then some things have to remain constant, in this case the stats your putting in to the modifier. Arguing to nerf the damage correlation because you cannot reach the same stat points in Dex as that Wizzie can MAG due to gear requirements is a GEAR based argument, NOT a correlation based argument, and if we're going to argue gear then maybe AA classes should have the same % of phys protection from their armor that melees get %magical protection from theirs. If you want to throw in shards and refines your welcome too, but I will point at that's another variable, one of those other factors you tend to ignore.



I'm not touching this one, there are so many variables you leave out its not even funny anymore. All class purge bow for the win btw. What's a veno? Yes its a proc, woop, shoot someone enough times, it will drop. I'm sure it procs faster with -int than the 30 sec It takes for my purge to cool down and the 3 sec it takes me to cast it. Not to mention only 10 meter range.b:surrender Purify on R9 weapon is broken (I do believe it is as I've said before) but this isn't... -_-

You're veno math is ok and I'll leave it at that. I would like to point out that it is still a difference though, another variable to consider, and that's before taking the gimped damage of our skills into account compared to other casters. Another hasty mistake I'll admit, but the fact itself is besides the point. I brought up the differences in veno damage vs. other caster damage to point out factors you were not taking into account. You still haven't tried to even consider these factors, you just throw up more pointless equations focused on only one variable.



These are perhaps the most ingnorant and insulting of your paragraphs. If you are talking about nerfing coeficients you must include ALL classes and builds, not just APS vs. Nuke. Not only that, you FINALLY get around to admitting that crit and interval are different between casters and non casters yet you still ignore them like they are nothing. You use math to defend your arguments but you don't even understand the basic principles behind it, picking and choosing only those variables you want to attack/defend, while throwing out anything else that may contradict your argument. Fail Troll is FAIL.

+1
i really hate this nub and i love how you make his math look dumb ty

also i am not weaker then a dumb weak aps barb lol weak sht ***

VKnightV - Lost City

no original concept is dd tank healer.

did you know the veno class did you know how little they could solo great but slow and mostly solo mode and very slow.

you then wish to solo ok but does it have to be 100% more then the veno EVER did not to mention solo. aint you getting greedy now.

then ppl ALWAYS says but i put this much coin to solo so should damn solo OK.

but what if a player dont wish to go aps and wish to solo like the aps but same amount of gear wish i might ADD is cheap but nope i cant cos aps is build in such a stupid way its almost hax and broken.

bp i do not even wish to say cos i can put bp on myself to but wont have same effect.

so let see aps is only metod to solo as melee cos its balanced......... ya lol really balanced.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wanted to stop but I just couldn't ignore your outright ignorance in your newest post replying to mine. Regardless of what you post as a result this will be my last response to you.

First of all your corrected equation is still wrong from two responses ago. I didn't mention it last time because I felt it irrelevant, but since you like math so much here you go.



.20 > 71.25 / (1 + 0.9 + 71.25)
.20 > 71.25 / 73.15
.20 > .97?

Also: X < 0.474 but X = 71.25? You probably switched the sign by accident but it doesn't make your formula any more correct.

Also using 90% instead of the 1.9 coefficient we still get around 0.475 > 0.526. Yah, pro math major here folks, and this is his SECOND go round. I hope your not going into a field that will require you to actually use your "maths".

Here's another one.

I should of used another letter in bottom equation, its really just a habit of using X. Plain simple there is nothing wrong with it, it may be misleading for using X on both equations but the math is correct.

Changing of sign was intentional. though it might of been pointless one of making a point of where the line was. First I determined the dex multiplier after which casters gained more per stat point. This is result of dex multiplier becoming over 20% of damage multiplier, which was earlier proved as point of where sage psys gain more from their damage multiplier.

Really, I admit it may be misleading but applying numbers as you did is utterly idiotic.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Adding 60% weapon damage? Why? sin mastery is 90%. Archer mastery is 75%. -15% = 60%? If you go off base +12 weapon damage for S3 Dagger vs. S3 Bow AND include the sage masteries on each. Max dam of daggers is 1956 + (1956x0.9) = 3716 Bow is 3797 + (3797x0.75) = 6644. 6644-3716 = 2928. 2928/6644 is a .44 or a 44% difference, not 60%, and if we factor in stats and level bonuses the difference becomes even more, so that can't be it either. Where are your numbers coming from? Are you just making them up as you go along? I gave you the fact I didn't understand why you wrote the equations the way you did last time, though the math was still wrong. But this? Since math is all you argue with I figured you would take it more seriously, but then your arguing R999breaks the game but APS doesn't, so what should I expect.

Why? Because I was talking bout sage archer, which has 90% bow mastery(same as sage dagger devotion) and 60% Blazing arrow. The damage multiplier for same dex was same `cept for Blazing arrow so it was simple matter of just adding 60% of weapon attack. I felt it would really be plain silly to do bow comparison with class that has no bow masteries.

As for using +12? They were easily accessible in your post I was responding to and if there is some formula, like there should be, for refine rates, bigger number has less rounding in numbers = more exact comparison. And the whole point of it was to show how casters gain more from refines, mixing base damages in that would of really made it invalid.

Due forums only quoting the poster before, when I wrote response my numbers were already in your quoted parts and I didnt feel like copy pasting them, though afterwards the numbers I refer dont show on the post. And for rest of the points in paragraph? They were the same sort of idiocy I really didnt expect.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Second: Your agreeing with my points in several of your posts yet your still trolling them? For example...


I was the one that explained about the +25% for casters being added at the end of damage equation yet you argue like I said the opposite. Why? Are you only proving how you don't bother to read my posts so you can do more of your pointless "maths"?

I question, if correct way of calculating something has already been seen, why play with equation you know to be wrong?

On page 11 I already demonstrated how caster mastery is calculated into multiplier.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

For 92 caster, say sage psy with 25% mastery. They need what, 50 points of str(TT90)? so 45 extra point out of 455, leaving 400 for mag or total of 405.

We get damage multiplier with 1 + 405/100 = 5.05 x 1.25 = 6.31

Only later did I create equation out of it with symbols as it didnt seem obvious to everybody.

On the post I also expanded it as it wasnt completely correct. It was to bring masteries into multiplier and while it works, we have to remember caster mastery boosts other part of the damage calculation too. And thus doing real damage calculation instead of theory, it really is better to use the equation I mentioned there than play with adding 25% on relevant points.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You also prove time and time again you don't bother to do research. Last time you left out bows and said all gear save for daggers refined the same, now your saying refines are higher for mages. Last I checked +30 for axes and +30 for mag sword for 1 star orb was still the same.

+ 700% magic attack? I WISH! My +900% Magic attack for sage veno would own! Even if I only have 300 Mag. I pulled this off PWI calc for you. Your favorite website.

Celestial Eruption
Skill level1
Necessary level of Player: 89
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad.
Discharges three Sparks to recover 20% of your maximum MP, add 700% weapon damage, and reduce all damage taken by 25% for 15 seconds. Grants invincibility for 3 seconds after the discharge.

So... no, we don't get +7 to our correlation score.

Also, skill damage doesn't transter across sparks unless its weapon damage. The bonuses for weapon damage in the skill description would apply, the extra damage of the skill itself would not. If it did, oh how I would spam the **** out of venomous scarab whenever I met a R999 Barb. And Parasitic Nova b:dirty ,especially with a 900% damage increase across the board. Go Go White Teas! b:cool

I didnt say all weapons refined the same, I said Axes and magic weapons did. I didnt think of bows which refine higher, lower refining weapons simply were irrelevant when arguing if casters get the advantage on refines.

I actually used PWIwiki I believe for that information. Ecatomb actually says and I quote: "Detonates all three Sparks to recover 20% of your maximum MP.
Grants bonus damage equal to 900% of magic attack
plus 500% of weapon damage for 15 seconds.
You also become immune to all damage for 3 seconds."

Psy triple spark talked bout weapon damage so I suspect magic attack = magical weapon attack, different terms are only to not mix physical weapon damage to magical weapon damage. Though I believe as not applying rings into weapon attack would complicate equation in idiotic manner, we really should be talking bout magic attack instead of weapon attack.

Do you even understand what weapon attack/damage means? 700% weapon damage = 7 times weapon damage, which in fact is exactly 7 correlation score if I understood what you meant by it. And really, those sparks are calculated into damage multipliers in the equations you quoted. All I can really do at this point is facepalm.

But no, obviously those X weapon damage from skills wouldnt get multiplied, they dont get multiplied by multipliers, why would spark be any different? Only thing those care bout is your weapon damage and whatever number happens to get rolled from the pool. Not to forget caster mastery, it multiplies that sort of damage too. And attack levels, which are same for both with full R9+ sets. Only exception sins as they have tendency to only use weapon to not lose interval, which is why they have less attack levels from gear.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

First of all, making pretty equations on theory is EXACTLY what you keep doing. Real World and PWI? Really? Ok, here's the thing, there are gear limitations. There are also ridiculous amounts of stat points being thrown around at high levels, and not just on R999 gear. All OHT and 3 Star Craftables come with random bonuses, as does the N2 and N3 gear. Most people have said archers can get around 500 Dex easy same for Sins. Arguing that your max damage stat score is limited by gear works up to a point, but if your working on damage correlations based on numbers alone then some things have to remain constant, in this case the stats your putting in to the modifier. Arguing to nerf the damage correlation because you cannot reach the same stat points in Dex as that Wizzie can MAG due to gear requirements is a GEAR based argument, NOT a correlation based argument, and if we're going to argue gear then maybe AA classes should have the same % of phys protection from their armor that melees get %magical protection from theirs. If you want to throw in shards and refines your welcome too, but I will point at that's another variable, one of those other factors you tend to ignore.

Wizzies gain both higher multiplier from stat point and also higher stat points due gear restrictions. In theory stat points are the same, in the game they arent. Both are part of the reason casters deal more damage. I felt it was obvious way to account for both of the points. Its argument which takes both into account, if it was gear based I would of simply showed how much more stat points casters have available. And that really didnt happen.

There is 2 p.def buffs and only one mag def buff, which really justifies different values. If there was only 1 p.def buff, AA p.def should be raised. Then again with these in mind, stone barrier is really just plain absurd. 3 p.def buffs vs 1 m.def buff for barbs. Despite barbs having higher m.def from gear, the buffs give wizzies higher p.def by a lot.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm not touching this one, there are so many variables you leave out its not even funny anymore. All class purge bow for the win btw. What's a veno? Yes its a proc, woop, shoot someone enough times, it will drop. I'm sure it procs faster with -int than the 30 sec It takes for my purge to cool down and the 3 sec it takes me to cast it. Not to mention only 10 meter range.b:surrender Purify on R9 weapon is broken (I do believe it is as I've said before) but this isn't... -_-

My sin deals ultimately same dps as 4aps sin with R9+12 daggers, full DoT. I would consider such sin comparable to R9+12 psy with DoTs. Such a psy held aggro off me, while it really has too much variables, like everything related to own experiences, it really is better than "QQ aps QQ". Till somebody bothers doing math regarding dps for casters...

Nothing is preventing you from statting enough dex to use lunar bow, is there? Only class that cant use it is seekers. Lunar bow proc, whatever it was called, had bout 5% chance to purge. Some also tested spirit blackhole, which had on fairly small, ~1k hits, number of samples. It was on the same 5% but it would seem like due small number of samples and getting unlucky so to say. But for it being lot higher than the sample chance, sample hits would have to have been quite unlucky.

But with this 100%(purge) / 5% (chance) = 20 hits on average till purge. Your average -int set on sin will land 1.05aps with lunar bow. 20 hits/ 1.05aps = 19s till purge. If you argue that purge, which takes on average 19s of uninterrupted attacking, replaces purge that can be cast at will... Spirit Blackhole with the chance from data Ive seen would of been the same I believe but more likely its somewhere around 15s with same attack speed. Demon archers have QS to compensate for lower aps of R9 set.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You're veno math is ok and I'll leave it at that. I would like to point out that it is still a difference though, another variable to consider, and that's before taking the gimped damage of our skills into account compared to other casters. Another hasty mistake I'll admit, but the fact itself is besides the point. I brought up the differences in veno damage vs. other caster damage to point out factors you were not taking into account. You still haven't tried to even consider these factors, you just throw up more pointless equations focused on only one variable.

The hell? I am not arguing bout veno class, I dont care how it balances among casters. Still even veno has higher skill damage and weapon attack multiplier on skills than non casters. Only exception I can think of is Archers Take Aim(400% demon, 500% sage). Arrow inferno has 250% of gear attack, rest Ive seen are 100%. I actually forgot stormrage eagleon with 600% but it doesnt have any instant damage but is a 15s DoT that costs 2 sparks. Not really relevant, only place where people seriously used it was caster vana that I know of. None of those skills are used for dps value though. TA, ridiculous channel for no -chan class, AI costs a spark, SE is just plain ****.

If this topic is regarding a specific formula in mechanics then yes, it really is going to be focused on math around it. You want to count ponies, you create a thread where people count the ponies they see on interwebz or something. Simply cause you find some attributes relevant doesnt make it so, granted my assuming them unimportant doesnt make it so either. But you dont even try to prove their importance, you only say there is this and that, not even trying to prove their importance. There are major factors and minor factors, you have tendency to focus on minor factors. Only example being aps but you dont really even understand its impact in balance.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

These are perhaps the most ingnorant and insulting of your paragraphs. If you are talking about nerfing coeficients you must include ALL classes and builds, not just APS vs. Nuke. Not only that, you FINALLY get around to admitting that crit and interval are different between casters and non casters yet you still ignore them like they are nothing. You use math to defend your arguments but you don't even understand the basic principles behind it, picking and choosing only those variables you want to attack/defend, while throwing out anything else that may contradict your argument. Fail Troll is FAIL.

I stated the obvious, if higher dps of non casters, in this case aps toons, is such a big deal, then dps calculations should really be regarding aps toons and casters as lower dps of non caster/aps toons isnt going to be point in favor of retaining caster damage. Really, if we have a point to which people refer "Omg aps QQ" and it has highest dps of non casters, what the hell is the point of bringing non aps non caster dps into the picture?

Interval between attacks? I feel it was obvious but higher interval between attacks doesnt mean higher dps. Also crit rate is great for increasing dps but the problem with casters is how they can 1shot people when they crit. Sage BIDS with crit boost makes it for this reason fairly absurd skill. Give casters higher crit and they wont simply occasionally 1shot people, they will do it lot more often.

But really, if all you got to offer is "QQ aps QQ", dont bother, I really am bout done. You dont even try to argue how poor casters deal no good dps, you simply assume so. A lot of this is for the reason aps toons had refined weapons and people were dealing so much less damage because of it, plain and simple. This looked like "omg hax dmg", while in reality lot of people were simply doing **** damage as they had **** refines on weapon.

Another part is chi gain, where casters would have to burn resources to keep up with aps while aps didnt burn resources for chi. For this reason casters didnt do as well as they could(genie ****, apos), furthering the gap against aps. And as for design, melee dps class should do more dps than ranged one and if it wasnt so, their balance would be plain broken. Aps has some aspects which make it broken but you clearly dont understand how or why it is so. Your understanding of the subject seems to go as deep as "OMG they hit faster = more dmg!!111!!", which really isnt much.

Edit: Kudos for having favor of forum idiot. If he really is Ghoul like I understood earlier, then having him disagree makes me actually feel more comfortable bout what I say.

OIdpop - Heavens Tear

the game is broke and will continue to be broke..that is all.

hi7ok1ri

blablabla.... bump..


everthing is fine ... I want only one thing....

CAP CRIT RATE FOR CASTERS to 0% ...

I have mid gear on sin (5 aps build) with +5 /+6 refines ...buffed 8k hp...mostly one shooted in nw from r9r3 casters...but thats I guess.., normal...problem is when I see 10 deaths in row CRIT 10k-15k (killed by blabla wizard or killed by blbala psy ) ..I mean wtf...they can kill me in 2-3 shot if I dont use powder but with crit I'm always one shooted ..

Am I really that lucky b:cry

last sunday I counted casters crits...from 23 fights 1vs1 (wizzs, psys, clerics) there was 18 crits on me.... EIGHTEEN (18) ...I mean... cmon...really..
going to cry in the corner now...
laterzb:surrender

LadyMaraJade - Sanctuary

hi7ok1ri wrote: »

blablabla.... bump..


everthing is fine ... I want only one thing....

CAP CRIT RATE FOR CASTERS to 0% ...

I have mid gear on sin (5 aps build) with +5 /+6 refines ...buffed 8k hp...mostly one shooted in nw from r9r3 casters...but thats I guess.., normal...problem is when I see 10 deaths in row CRIT 10k-15k (killed by blabla wizard or killed by blbala psy ) ..I mean wtf...they can kill me in 2-3 shot if I dont use powder but with crit I'm always one shooted ..

Am I really that lucky b:cry

last sunday I counted casters crits...from 23 fights 1vs1 (wizzs, psys, clerics) there was 18 crits on me.... EIGHTEEN (18) ...I mean... cmon...really..
going to cry in the corner now...
laterzb:surrender

^^LMAO^^ casters are ment to hit hard on HA classes and Of couse Sins are like 1 shots to magic users inless you catch them out and stun lock them and with r9r3 well of course ya gonna be 1shotted if you dont have same sorta gearb:bye

My Sin is in the Vote when i use him in NW But you just have to go Hunt easier targets thats all

Desdi - Sanctuary

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I get that R999 is maybe too much in favor of the casters and I absolutely agree with that. But It's only one tiny subset of gear and players that it's a problem. So would it not make more sense to change the stat values on the problem gear to account for the higher damage multiplier instead of nerfing everyone from level 1 to 100. You can't make any exceptions when you're talking about changing the way a class works and you have to take into account all the ways it will be used when you do that. So yes, bosses become a huge freaking deal. And so do elite mobs, So do instances, so do all things PvE. Because you're messing the the way an entire group of classes work. Clerics for example already have some of the worst damage in the game, is the multiplier really that unfair for them in early game, mid game, anything Rank 8 or below? Because that's the majority of players across all the different versions of the game, some of which have hardly any rank 9 players at all.

Defensively, on the whole, heavy armor has more defense. In addition, non-casters get more HP per vit. Casters are squishier, but hit harder to make up for it. That's a pretty classic RPG setup used on many, many, many games. Would there be any justification at all for changing that if you ignore the small subset of players who have fully refined, fully sharded end-game gear and instead look at everyone else?

I'm going to support Venus with this. There are a lot of casters with R999 gear, indeed, but there are just as many casters that don't have r999 (or even r9) for a reason or another.

I agree wholeheartedly that R999 favours casters and Purify is broken but nerfing the multiplier is going to have an impact on lower levels and non-R9 toons that needs to be taken into account.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

So much maths... ._. Anyway.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Yes, it is my opinion. The casters were balanced with higher skill damages compared to non casters, while having higher stat point multiplier. Lets assume this was done right aka classes were balanced in reality with TT99 gear. When gear upgrades, casters start to gain relatively more damage than non casters from upgrades. Which we can call unbalanced or broken.

If on other hand casters had the same multiplier but higher skill damages to balance the lower damage than before for lower gears. This too, would of been balanced. But instead with gear upgrades, casters wouldnt gain relatively more damage. One could argue casters would gain relatively less when looking at full damage and they would be right. If casters have high base skill damages, increase from gear/stat points would be relatively less than for non casters who have smaller base skill damages, as long as both gain the same damage. But I believe it would of been much fairer as upgrading gear would of been closer to equally rewarding.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

It is in fact that OP endgame, talking bout R999 +12 for sage barb in tiger and demon wizard, both fully buffed, both classes have fairly equal effective health on their weaker defenses. With the lack of gear options in pwicalc, Id say comparable, not equal but taking barb to +11 refines and Id bet on wizzie having more effective health against physical than barb against elemental.

So your whole argument here basically boils down to "nerf the multiplier but buff the skills so that R9S3 et. al aren't (as) broken anymore"? I'm pretty sure that this solution wouldn't really put much of a dent in caster damage with R9S3, considering the biggest factor in its brokenness is, oh I dunno, the 80+ attack levels. XD

And you still didn't answer my question. You said "let's assume" that classic gear e.g. TT99 is balanced, then you just continued to talk about the broken gear. So I'm wondering if you're conceding the point here, or you just missed it entirely...?

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Casters had more drops per run, which nobody is going to argue. The casters I took into normal vana during 2x wondered how little drops we get per run. Caster vana is plain better for rewards. Casters needed to do their BHs for talismans and they got 1 from Morai. I am pretty sure BH1 also gave key on top of 3 free ones but I remember guildie wizzie complaining bout not having enough keys, *Shrugs*.

Now the difference in farming ultimately is casters doing 3 runs daily, aps toons farming their ***** of during 2x. Normal vana drops of 4 from last boss + 10 boxes. 2 raps + 8 cannies would of been good run during 2x. From what I heard on vent, casters were getting similar or better drops during normal drops as normal vana gave during 2x. It might of been intentional to counter aps farming during 2x but during 2x casters got absurd amounts of crystals per run, compared to oh so OP aps toons.

Ultimately difference is in few runs/day vs weekend spamming vana. Caster argument is aps spamming as much as they want vs talismans. Both instances are limited with keys and there are limits you can get each day. I could swear doing BHs and old man totaled into 4 keys, which would indeed be 1 more than talismans, but now that I think of, with multiple 10X toons, people used own alts as openers to hit 1/1 key/run ratio for their mains.

But these points were actually pointed to casters, whom, while having the better instance, QQd how aps did runs faster and made more coins/hour. With vana design it shouldnt be coins/hour but coins/keys, where caster vana was superior.

The time spent per run was only one factor. Don't make the mistake of assuming keys = talis, because they are very, very different items. Talis have a time limit of 24h, whereas keys have no time limit and can thus be stacked/hoarded until 2x. Don't tell me Arch server didn't have its own frenzy for nirvana spamming every time 2x came around. :P

Then there's the fact that caster nirv usually required a full squad of six (or at least, you were unlikely to find someone willing to "sell a tali" versus selling keys). APS nirv, by contrast, was usually done with a four or three-man (sometimes even two) squad. This is where the time per run comes in, because for every one of those keys a run would take five, maybe ten minutes at most for a mostly-negligible opening fee. Caster nirv runs by contrast would take something on the order of 30min, judging by a few people I'm close to who ran caster nirv (as I myself was never eligible). So there's that time factor for you.

So to recap... aps nirv had shorter runs, allowed fewer people to split profit between, and could be spammed endlessly on 2x whereas caster could not. It was really no contest.

And let's not forget the physical people who had the audacity not to use aps (gasp!), who basically got shafted on both nirvs. Basically, wanmei handled the nirv aps problem in pretty much the most convoluted and ham-handed way possible.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Oh I have my own alt cleric, 75 for herbs and alt BM with 10 bell. A veno bramble is too short, maybe I should work on seeker next for the buff? Just kidding but you are correct, it is really easy to abuse FC for alts to utilize for farming. Granted cleric needs to be geared for wurlord to tank 1 magic hit inside BB, unless you want to pull it quite far. Then again it took me less than hour to farm full TT70 set and have fair bit of leftover mats.

The cleric would only be there as a BB slave anyway, and if you pull it right you can aggro it before the cleric ever gets hit. I've never soloed wurlord on my sin since I don't allow him any high aps, but it seems like a simple matter of Deaden Nerves + Focused Mind -> genie pull -> run to a far corner away from BB -> knife throw or something -> run to BB and you're good to go. You're not likely to take more than one hit which will be absorbed by Deaden even if it would manage to oneshot you. If all else fails, Maze Steps + IG will solve the problem handily. Then it's just go go Bloodpaint for the win. -_-

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I myself farm 2-3 rarely for 3 reasons. Its so damn long and I want cleric for wurlord, ape and astral. You also need to have effing squadmember in range to summon dog aka you either gear cleric highly to pass mobs between horse and ape or you clear the way for lowbie. Thirdly, handling the addons of AE is pain, least for my gear. Suppose sins with higher defenses have it easier but I wouldnt consider almost 11k hp barb buffed completely terrible either.

I know a person who does 2-3 in about half an hour with an alt cleric, skips feng and cosmo but IIRC kills wurlord and dog and astral. I don't believe they do AE, but they still make a handy profit. *shrug*

I have to believe those mobs in between feng and cosmo aren't much of an impediment to an aps sin. Yeah they make the run a couple minutes longer for the need to clear them, but given how many sins do it I doubt it's that big a problem. And hell - you could always just learn Share the Stealth, move your sin to a given rendevouz point, then holy path your cleric through all the mobs and let sin stealth her out of view at the end.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Well my comp has been broken since Xmas(Trying to fix it I realized never again to buy shop built comp, literally changed all parts and waiting on last ones atm) and thus I really refer to Xmas times with mat prices. It was during 2x but I would of thought I wasnt the only heavy 3-1 spammer on server. First they were indeed 1.5m but quickly prices dropped to 1m. After while they fell under that, 700k or so was the price when my comp decided he work no more. They may have shifted but I cant understand ribbons being anywhere near 1.5m atm.

Well if you're basing your projections off of 2x prices, there's your problem. 2x always lowers prices on just about anything farmable. I bought four Chromatic Tinders the other day for 6mil apeice (normally you don't find them on HT for much lower than their chip price of 9mil). :P

And that was just this past weekend when 2x lasted all of three days. Christmas was at least a month-long 2x period so you'd have some serious price depression going on there. Too bad for me that I only decided to go after lunar armor in January. XD

Decus - Dreamweaver

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

First of all your corrected equation is still wrong from two responses ago. I didn't mention it last time because I felt it irrelevant, but since you like math so much here you go.

.20 > 71.25 / (1 + 0.9 + 71.25)
.20 > 71.25 / 73.15
.20 > .97?

Yea it looks like he removed it, but it was wrong. The correct answer is actually -1.9 < x < 0.475

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And hell - you could always just learn Share the Stealth, move your sin to a given rendevouz point, then holy path your cleric through all the mobs and let sin stealth her out of view at the end.

They are level 150.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So much maths... ._. Anyway.




So your whole argument here basically boils down to "nerf the multiplier but buff the skills so that R9S3 et. al aren't (as) broken anymore"? I'm pretty sure that this solution wouldn't really put much of a dent in caster damage with R9S3, considering the biggest factor in its brokenness is, oh I dunno, the 80+ attack levels. XD

And you still didn't answer my question. You said "let's assume" that classic gear e.g. TT99 is balanced, then you just continued to talk about the broken gear. So I'm wondering if you're conceding the point here, or you just missed it entirely...?

Assuming TT99 is balanced but on what refines? Higher refine gain on weapon, even with TT99 gear, casters start to pull away at some point. When TT99 was endgame, refines were on ~+5. T99 on +5 refines is quite different from TT99 +12. The assumption I made was +5 refines, refines rising the balance will be broken. With casters gaining relatively more from refines, it`s ultimately impossible to balance classes. If they are balanced on +12, they wont be that on +5, which is the reason I feel like factors creating this relative difference in gain should be adjusted.

But when you nerf multiplier while buffing skill damages to keep low/average casters on where they are now, the impact on OP endgame will be noticeable. The point isnt to nerf casters to ground either, simply balance the game breaking factors. I really am not advocating any "nerf casters to ground" thinking, I simply dont want them to break away from others when gear gets better.

But you are mostly right in what I want changed. I dont care the 80 attack levels as its same to all the classes. Ultimately adding 80 attack levels to all classes increases damage of all classes but relatively equally and I dont see a problem in it. Well other than ability to 1shot people, which really shouldnt be possible w/o massive gear gap.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The time spent per run was only one factor. Don't make the mistake of assuming keys = talis, because they are very, very different items. Talis have a time limit of 24h, whereas keys have no time limit and can thus be stacked/hoarded until 2x. Don't tell me Arch server didn't have its own frenzy for nirvana spamming every time 2x came around. :P

Then there's the fact that caster nirv usually required a full squad of six (or at least, you were unlikely to find someone willing to "sell a tali" versus selling keys). APS nirv, by contrast, was usually done with a four or three-man (sometimes even two) squad. This is where the time per run comes in, because for every one of those keys a run would take five, maybe ten minutes at most for a mostly-negligible opening fee. Caster nirv runs by contrast would take something on the order of 30min, judging by a few people I'm close to who ran caster nirv (as I myself was never eligible). So there's that time factor for you.

So to recap... aps nirv had shorter runs, allowed fewer people to split profit between, and could be spammed endlessly on 2x whereas caster could not. It was really no contest.

And let's not forget the physical people who had the audacity not to use aps (gasp!), who basically got shafted on both nirvs. Basically, wanmei handled the nirv aps problem in pretty much the most convoluted and ham-handed way possible.

Well I saw my friends going trough their keys on daily basis by doing daily casters on set time. They did their BHs and had own alt openers/guildies donate their extra talismans for opening to match talismans into keys. This went on for bout 2 months. It only ended when NW came out. So really, only thing restricting me and my friends farming vana was personal keys on mains.

But yes, aps could run w/o full 6man squad, though I know for a fact it was mostly 5man. 4man required 3 R9/G16(-int)/G15(-int & zerk) +10 sins and demon HF BM, changing 1 sin to veno wouldnt harm a good squad either. This for a quick run aka HFable bosses dropping in 1 spark. Quick runs were the only reason I managed to spam vana for god knows how many hours a day. The 30h nirvy weekends were disgusting, 40+ if you count Friday. And really, to burn those 300 or so keys you usually had gathered during normal drops combined with short 1 weekend 2x drops, whole weekend of vana was how you did it.

I really knew only a handful of people who ran 3man and all those squads were 2 R9+12 DoT sins and BM with demon HF. But even those werent something Id call super fast runs nor did they run solely 3man runs. To me it seems people confuse 4-6man speed to 3man squads and argue how broken it is people can spam 3man with stupid speed.

One change which would of made archers wanted for vana would of been letting STA work on bosses. It would also of made sage veno most wanted debuffer instead of demon HF BM with sage soul degeneration. Would not of helped barbs and seekers but Wanmei could of made em tank vana, a obstacle course like jungle ruins, lol.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The cleric would only be there as a BB slave anyway, and if you pull it right you can aggro it before the cleric ever gets hit. I've never soloed wurlord on my sin since I don't allow him any high aps, but it seems like a simple matter of Deaden Nerves + Focused Mind -> genie pull -> run to a far corner away from BB -> knife throw or something -> run to BB and you're good to go. You're not likely to take more than one hit which will be absorbed by Deaden even if it would manage to oneshot you. If all else fails, Maze Steps + IG will solve the problem handily. Then it's just go go Bloodpaint for the win. -_-

You have to kill wurlord 4 times. I for one am not gonna wait on deaden from cd, pulling it w/o taking hits outside of BB takes maybe 30% of the time it would take doing it the way you explained. I said it was possible but simply annoying, easier to just gear cleric with TT70 set, granted my 75 cleric has bout 150 vit. And how Id do it is setting cleric on other side of the room, pulling on sin with genie, speed buff, getting boss outside of group, knife throw and getting inside BB. Done right you shouldnt take a single hit. But really, I just rather farm TT70 set as its stupid easy. Most of the mats were in 1-2 I think and full run takes bout 10mins.

Ultimately rest is correct, though wurlord hits pretty hard on sin and rib strike is necessary for facerolling if you dont have OP orns. Also, the magic attack hits for like 4-5k inside BB, depending on if you have charm or not, you may want to spark on skill so it wont tick your charm.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I know a person who does 2-3 in about half an hour with an alt cleric, skips feng and cosmo but IIRC kills wurlord and dog and astral. I don't believe they do AE, but they still make a handy profit. *shrug*

Well it`s quite easy to just pass mobs between first boss and wurlord, even on undergeared cleric. Its the 2nd rush which is difficult for alt cleric. But rushing first and clearing 2nd is fastest way I believe. Simply needs knowledge of mob counts and experience on which parts you can rush, with doing 2-3 so rarely I really dont have such experience though.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well if you're basing your projections off of 2x prices, there's your problem. 2x always lowers prices on just about anything farmable. I bought four Chromatic Tinders the other day for 6mil apeice (normally you don't find them on HT for much lower than their chip price of 9mil). :P

And that was just this past weekend when 2x lasted all of three days. Christmas was at least a month-long 2x period so you'd have some serious price depression going on there. Too bad for me that I only decided to go after lunar armor in January. XD

With long 2x, the prices should of been low for a long time. I got so many stacks of GBAs Im not gonna admit just how many in fear of dropping prices further =(.

@Decus: interested in where you got -1.9.

Unless it comes from determining denominator is different from 0? X + 1 + 0.9 = 0
X = -1.9

And after that point denominator turns negative. But as nominator is also negative with given value, it makes number positive. -a / -b = a / b

As nominator is X we get points of.

-1.9 > X both are negative, making function positive.

-1.9 > X > 0 nominator is negative but denominator is negative, making number negative.

0.475 < X, equation has higher value than 0.2

And these form upside opening parallel? Really quite uncertain on how terms translate.

Didnt think of that tbh, guess its been too long since I last solved equations <.<.

But I suppose we can agree -1.9 is completely theoretical answer? Making 0.475 only relevant point to this discussion.

*Acts he said negative numbers dont fit because stat multiplier cant be negative*

One thing I dont understand is comment removing something - I never delete what Ive written, were they right or wrong. I believe such actions would be "faking it" and not deleting is easy way to remind oneself of being able to make mistakes.

Edit: Tried to re-read post for typos, etc. and fixed some.

VKnightV - Lost City

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I
But really, if all you got to offer is "QQ aps QQ", dont bother, I really am bout done. You dont even try to argue how poor casters deal no good dps, you simply assume so. A lot of this is for the reason aps toons had refined weapons and people were dealing so much less damage because of it, plain and simple. This looked like "omg hax dmg", while in reality lot of people were simply doing **** damage as they had **** refines on weapon.

Another part is chi gain, where casters would have to burn resources to keep up with aps while aps didnt burn resources for chi. For this reason casters didnt do as well as they could(genie ****, apos), furthering the gap against aps. And as for design, melee dps class should do more dps than ranged one and if it wasnt so, their balance would be plain broken. Aps has some aspects which make it broken but you clearly dont understand how or why it is so. Your understanding of the subject seems to go as deep as "OMG they hit faster = more dmg!!111!!", which really isnt much.

1) so let see what you mean with ur 1st paragrap is if say a 4aps toon have +12 weapon refine say nv2 with gof and a non aps hade +5 axe the aps should have agro cos he have +12 ok.
what if the 4aps +12 vs a +12 nv2 axe barb were to try who gold adro whould ream hold agro um NOPE even with same refine ur logic is foulty.
even if str he would lose agro anyways yaaa very balanced ur math about refine on weapon is so logical damn tocheeee.

about chi who told you only aps should dominate the chi gain cos EVERYONE have chi problem not just u.

and yes aps did dominate the dd aspect for TWO years on bosses you call it fair.

ooh and who IN HELL told you melee should be dps kings duh do you even know what role a archer or wiz or psy is.

if you dont know let me tell you to KILL dph dps same sht so ya its there main thing.

and i am gona quate you again cos i found something u wrote very funy.

Aps has some aspects which make it broken

you wrote it urself AINT u very smart now what did you say.

VKnightV - Lost City

love to copy paste his sht he dono what he says b:chuckle

WnbTank - Archosaur

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

1) so let see what you mean with ur 1st paragrap is if say a 4aps toon have +12 weapon refine say nv2 with gof and a non aps hade +5 axe the aps should have agro cos he have +12 ok.
what if the 4aps +12 vs a +12 nv2 axe barb were to try who gold adro whould ream hold agro um NOPE even with same refine ur logic is foulty.
even if str he would lose agro anyways yaaa very balanced ur math about refine on weapon is so logical damn tocheeee.

Nobody but you is going to argue if I say aps toons had higher refines on average than non aps toons. Its part of the reason why the difference in game is quite massive between aps toons and non aps toons.

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

about chi who told you only aps should dominate the chi gain cos EVERYONE have chi problem not just u.

I said it was major reason why in game experiences regarding caster dps underestimated the capabilities of caster dps. Im not saying casters should be spamming genie & apos, when aps toons dont have to. But I am saying if they did, they could close lot of the gap aps toons have gained. But I guess if I dont yell "Nerf omg op hax" I agree its balanced?

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

ooh and who IN HELL told you melee should be dps kings duh do you even know what role a archer or wiz or psy is.

They are DD class with advantage of range. Obviously for melee DD class to be balanced they need their own advantage, like higher dps. If melee DD class has no clear advantage, why would you ever play one? Range is major advantage.

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

if you dont know let me tell you to KILL dph dps same sht so ya its there main thing.

and i am gona quate you again cos i found something u wrote very funy.

Aps has some aspects which make it broken

you wrote it urself AINT u very smart now what did you say.

If you think, like it seems, that high dph classes should deal high dps also, it really isnt so. To extent yes, DD should be worthwhile DD despite this but if you cant see the advantages of high dph over dps, its your problem.

And I really ask you, where I have said aps was balanced? Theres few points I disagree in how it works, only real way of nerfing it w/o breaking something even more as a result is capping aps to something like 4 or 3.33. Only influence I see as negative would be making R9 best weapon for sins in every sense with no downsides.

Ps. Id be interested in what I copy pasted.

Decus - Dreamweaver

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

@Decus: interested in where you got -1.9.

Unless it comes from determining denominator is different from 0? X + 1 + 0.9 = 0
X = -1.9

And after that point denominator turns negative. But as nominator is also negative with given value, it makes number positive. -a / -b = a / b

As nominator is X we get points of.

-1.9 > X both are negative, making function positive.

-1.9 > X > 0 nominator is negative but denominator is negative, making number negative.

0.475 < X, equation has higher value than 0.2

And these form upside opening parallel? Really quite uncertain on how terms translate.

Didnt think of that tbh, guess its been too long since I last solved equations <.<.

But I suppose we can agree -1.9 is completely theoretical answer? Making 0.475 only relevant point to this discussion.

*Acts he said negative numbers dont fit because stat multiplier cant be negative*

One thing I dont understand is comment removing something - I never delete what Ive written, were they right or wrong. I believe such actions would be "faking it" and not deleting is easy way to remind oneself of being able to make mistakes.

Edit: Tried to re-read post for typos, etc. and fixed some.

To be fair, I didn't search much in all of your posts, but I could not find the original expression whence it was quoted. If I missed it, fair enough. I will also concede that negatives are not useful in terms of stat multipliers, but the solution itself is that interval.

The reason your result was wrong was because you treated a rational expression incorrectly. You cannot divide and multiply out an indeterminate quantity, which are both the numerator and denominator, in this case. To solve it correctly, you'd need to move the 0.2 to the right side, find the lowest common denominator, and find the zeroes of the resultant expression. I don't want to solve it fully right now because I am at the airport, but I am sure you can verify my answer.

anwynd

Man cant believe i just read everything in this thread got such a big head ache sense im not smart in the math department think im gonna go outside for awhile and try to get a life. Before i go i have to say the main people who have been arguing you both are kind of prejudice toward the classes your arguing for. the dude that keeps multiposting dude put it in one post man and stop slinging insults your just making yourself look petty and no better then what your calling the people you dislike.

VKnightV - Lost City

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

They are DD class with advantage of range. Obviously for melee DD class to be balanced they need their own advantage, like higher dps. If melee DD class has no clear advantage, why would you ever play one? Range is major advantage.

---

t
hen nothing is wrong with that
who still have cata barbs vit axe bm who are biggest stunners
but no you want to have biggest survabilit yand best solo capability and best dds
arnt you asking for god mode maybe mmo is not ur cup of tea.

---

If you think, like it seems, that high dph classes should deal high dps also, it really isnt so. To extent yes, DD should be worthwhile DD despite this but if you cant see the advantages of high dph over dps, its your problem.

---

i did see the dd as part of a team but when the same dd can solo and heal themself
without need of healer then the balance is dead right there.
anything after that is PURE BOGUS
let me tell you a dd dont mean you can solo stuff it mean you kill things faster not solo.
if ur r9s3 +12 dot be my guast as there nothing remotly close to that kinda gear in pve
dosent mean nothing tho.
cos then its ur walllet who is soloing not skill or ur pro.

---

And I really ask you, where I have said aps was balanced? Theres few points I disagree in how it works, only real way of nerfing it w/o breaking something even more as a result is capping aps to something like 4 or 3.33. Only influence I see as negative would be making R9 best weapon for sins in every sense with no downsides.

---

if you know aps is not balanced why in hell are you defending it so much.
3aps would do wonders to the aps crows but i tho a even better ideas on top of it.
put a 10-15 sec cooldown on spark.


also i might add why in hell was not int and channeling made with same equation
with a %
have you ever seen the cost of channeling for say a 90+ channeling vs aps 5aps
channeling gear cost waaaaay to much and is waay harder to make then int is.

---

My sin deals ultimately same dps as 4aps sin with R9+12 daggers, full DoT. I would consider such sin comparable to R9+12 psy with DoTs. Such a psy held aggro off me, while it really has too much variables, like everything related to own experiences, it really is better than "QQ aps QQ". Till somebody bothers doing math regarding dps for casters...

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what gear does ur sin have to do that much dps cos that psy payed a lot to have all that gear i hope its not a cheap as piece of gear.

---

Nothing is preventing you from statting enough dex to use lunar bow, is there? Only class that cant use it is seekers. Lunar bow proc, whatever it was called, had bout 5% chance to purge. Some also tested spirit blackhole, which had on fairly small, ~1k hits, number of samples. It was on the same 5% but it would seem like due small number of samples and getting unlucky so to say. But for it being lot higher than the sample chance, sample hits would have to have been quite unlucky.

---

do you even know why seeker did not get to use fist.
they did not want another qq aps qq class.

---

The hell? I am not arguing bout veno class, I dont care how it balances among casters. Still even veno has higher skill damage and weapon attack multiplier on skills than non casters. Only exception I can think of is Archers Take Aim(400% demon, 500% sage). Arrow inferno has 250% of gear attack, rest Ive seen are 100%. I actually forgot stormrage eagleon with 600% but it doesnt have any instant damage but is a 15s DoT that costs 2 sparks. Not really relevant, only place where people seriously used it was caster vana that I know of. None of those skills are used for dps value though. TA, ridiculous channel for no -chan class, AI costs a spark, SE is just plain ****.

---

if you dont care about caster maybe you shouldent say nerf magic.
venos magic is no where op compared to the others i played it and its quite balanced.

---

I stated the obvious, if higher dps of non casters, in this case aps toons, is such a big deal, then dps calculations should really be regarding aps toons and casters as lower dps of non caster/aps toons isnt going to be point in favor of retaining caster damage. Really, if we have a point to which people refer "Omg aps QQ" and it has highest dps of non casters, what the hell is the point of bringing non aps non caster dps into the picture?

---

we exist even if you ignore us we wont budge like you did to ur own barb.
i am sorry you hated not being wanted but dont take it on the rest of us who still play as non aps melee.
so yes it does matter.

---

Interval between attacks? I feel it was obvious but higher interval between attacks doesnt mean higher dps. Also crit rate is great for increasing dps but the problem with casters is how they can 1shot people when they crit. Sage BIDS with crit boost makes it for this reason fairly absurd skill. Give casters higher crit and they wont simply occasionally 1shot people, they will do it lot more often.

---

did you look at the caster gear is it r9s3 +12 josd and what class are you and what gear do you have.
do you have r9s3 +12 josd
if you have any weaker then that then you just need better GEAR nothing else.

---

But really, if all you got to offer is "QQ aps QQ", dont bother, I really am bout done. You dont even try to argue how poor casters deal no good dps, you simply assume so. A lot of this is for the reason aps toons had refined weapons and people were dealing so much less damage because of it, plain and simple. This looked like "omg hax dmg", while in reality lot of people were simply doing **** damage as they had **** refines on weapon.

---

are you saying if my weapon grade is same as ur aps toon and same refine +12my barb can have the agro.
then yes this become a qq aps qq thread.

---

Another part is chi gain, where casters would have to burn resources to keep up with aps while aps didnt burn resources for chi. For this reason casters didnt do as well as they could(genie ****, apos), furthering the gap against aps. And as for design, melee dps class should do more dps than ranged one and if it wasnt so, their balance would be plain broken. Aps has some aspects which make it broken but you clearly dont understand how or why it is so. Your understanding of the subject seems to go as deep as "OMG they hit faster = more dmg!!111!!", which really isnt much.

---

so if we put a cooldown on ur spark or remove chi gain from spark you wont qq about it

---

Edit: Kudos for having favor of forum idiot. If he really is Ghoul like I understood earlier, then having him disagree makes me actually feel more comfortable bout what I say.

---

and you agreeing that melee shoudl be god mode make me FACEPALM
glad you never played on 2008 cos i know you would not last the 1st weekend.
barb like you never lasted long.

VKnightV - Lost City

anwynd wrote: »

Man cant believe i just read everything in this thread got such a big head ache sense im not smart in the math department think im gonna go outside for awhile and try to get a life. Before i go i have to say the main people who have been arguing you both are kind of prejudice toward the classes your arguing for. the dude that keeps multiposting dude put it in one post man and stop slinging insults your just making yourself look petty and no better then what your calling the people you dislike.

but i like to make him look like the moron
saying melee is dd or nobady would play one WTF.
hehe that is one of my reason to keep quating him.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To be fair, I didn't search much in all of your posts, but I could not find the original expression whence it was quoted. If I missed it, fair enough. I will also concede that negatives are not useful in terms of stat multipliers, but the solution itself is that interval.

The reason your result was wrong was because you treated a rational expression incorrectly. You cannot divide and multiply out an indeterminate quantity, which are both the numerator and denominator, in this case. To solve it correctly, you'd need to move the 0.2 to the right side, find the lowest common denominator, and find the zeroes of the resultant expression. I don't want to solve it fully right now because I am at the airport, but I am sure you can verify my answer.

Thesis for which it was based on is as mag has higher damage multiplier and as masteries work differently between casters and non casters, we can find a point after which mag classes have higher multiplier than non casters. With sage psy 25% increase in full damage, which is 20% of full damage and for non casters this can be assumed as 20% of the damage multiplier. So in short if stat point modifier exceeds 20% of the damage multiplier for non caster, a sage psy would gain more from same amount of mag. And while it is under 20%, sage psy has lower damage multiplier.

As for the original expression, there really wasnt one `cept for thesis. But I believe it would be following:

Y = X / ( X + 1 + Z )

Where Y is percentage of damage. X is stat point multiplier, Z is weapon mastery or more precisely sage dagger devotion. The denominator as whole comes from expression of damage multiplier from pwiwiki. Damage = Weapon attack x (1 + Dex/150 + Weapon attack mastery + weapon attack Buffs). I assumed weapon attack as constant, which allowed me to compare damage multipliers.

0.20 > X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X ) in the form of 0.20 = X / ( 1+ 0.9 + X ) to look for points of zero?

0.20 = X / ( 1+ 0.9 + X ) // I dont know the term but changing for common denominator
0.2 x( 1 + 0.9 + X ) /( 1 + 0.9 + X ) = X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X )
( 0.2 + 0.18 + 0.2X ) / ( 1 + 0.9 + X ) = X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X )
0 = X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X ) - ( 0.38 + 0.2X ) / ( 1 + 0.9 + X )
0 = X - 0.2X - 0.38 / ( 1 + 0.9 + X )
0 = 0.8X - 0.38 / ( 1.9 + X )

So at this points we should find points of zero for both nominator and denominator?

0.8X - 0.38 = 0
0.8X = 0.38 // : 0.8
X = 0.475

1.9 + X = 0
X = -1.9

Points of zero represent points where sage sin and sage psy multipliers are equal.

When X < -1.9, the expression 0.20 > X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X ) is untrue = Psy has higher damage multiplier.

When X = 0, the expression 0.20 > X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X ) is true = Sin has higher damage multiplier

When X > 0.475 the expression 0.20 > X / ( 1 + 0.9 + X )is untrue = Psy has higher damage multiplier.

Sin has higher damage multiplier on following interval: -1,9 > X > 0.475

As Dex multiplier = Dex / 150

For dex same points are -285 < X < 71.25

WnbTank - Archosaur

Im not gonna quote the mess VKnightV created, its just unappealing to quote that.

If you argue like sin have highest defenses, I really have no words for it. LA armor is plain worst in game till we get bit further with endgame gear. If I had to guess, another ring that refines both defenses, belt and maybe neck and LA becomes the new OP armor. But as you seem to base all your arguments on aps, it has worst defenses of all endgame builds in game and saying like it has the best one is really just silly.

BP is only problem to certain extent regarding soloing. Taking BP off will only change gear requirements higher to where pots & charm can heal damage. This will affect sins highly but for aps BMs this only makes dent in profits as they gotta pot/use charm more. Lets not forget alt clerics and dual clienting, which can really replace BP. Plain healing isnt really a problem.

The real problem is completely overgeared toons for instance in question. The problem really is how intended DD class can tank instance, which is result of gear upgrading far beyond what was intended for the instance. Right now aps offers highest long term dps and if it is changed, so will people change the toon they farm with. Problem isnt really even dps, problem is outdated instance(s).

Instance has to be designed in way that tier below the reward gear is able to finish the instance. Problem here is that even TT99 is really low tier gear and changing its difficulty really is impossible or completely unfair towards new players as they cant farm their gear. Which would happen if TT was changed so current high tier gear couldnt solo it.

Only way to fix this is create new instance, which requires current high tier gear just to be completed. I dont feel like new gear sets should be made for this but create instance which rewards tokens. X number of tokens into endgame shard. Make award quest based, everybody in squad gets set amount of tokens and thus soloing becomes plain silly unless one drags alts in. It should be difficult enough to make this option unappealing to even highest tier players.

Only problem is how it would hit hard on pack sales and we are not going to see such change. With balance in mind, it would really make sense. Way both sides would be happy is entrance fee, which would be cash shop item. I like idea of giving tokens of luck another purpose with X amount of tokens of luck to open said instance. And if spamming instance is still a problem, make it key based like nirvana was, instead of free keys make it like Aurora agent was, quest for tokens that can be only taken limited amount of time in a day. Also, make keys untradeable. This should block way for most abusing options I can think of offhand.

I do see massive problem in what lower tier geared players are going to farm but meh, only way to fix the issue is by making it not worth it to farm instance that has long been outdated.

I "defend" aps as it really isnt the problem. Take aps away and it is only replaced with another class/build. Problem lies elsewhere, like I explained. As for my gear, my sin has N3 +11 daggers with -int, all -interval gear including pan gu tome, enough defenses to survive what I farm. I also explained why N3 shouldnt be compared to R9, R9 has 2 upgrades forward while N3 is best "f2p gear".

And honestly, this thread wasnt about balancing veno dps with other casters, its fairly irrelevant point. Same as arguing how axe BM deals low dps and for that reason mag multiplier should be nerfed. As for veno? I have to say Sage spark + Sage Nova = disgusting in theory. I know veno damage was adjusted at some point, prior to that R9 veno 1shot my barb for 28k. And no, I wasnt HFd nor did I notice any major debuffs on me that time. Pretty sure I wasnt even amped.

I really dont understand your standpoint. You dont want mag multiplier changed, you hate APS and yet axe barbs/BMs should not be forgotten? If we argue mag multiplier should be adjusted, we focus on non caster strong points on how even despite those, the multiplier is unfair. If we didnt account for this, all the caster responses would be aps QQ. Not that this has changed the response that I notice of.

If barb uses aggro skills, same tier weapon on same refine, he should have the aggro - Dont think it is the case though as aggro skills are outdated. Taking chi off sparks would be silly. I think halved chi gain while sparked might be enough.

Decus - Dreamweaver

You keep flipping the greater/less than signs the wrong way. Otherwise, you came to the same answer I did.

WnbTank - Archosaur

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You keep flipping the greater/less than signs the wrong way. Otherwise, you came to the same answer I did.

Never got handle with those <.<.

I did realize something last night though, thesis is ultimately wrong. We cant draw point where multiplier a > b just from when mastery advantage changes. This is because I forgot to account for the constant 1, which adjusts meeting point(s). It could be calculated at which stat point mastery becomes better, though for that the equation would start with form 0.2 > 0.9 / ( 1 + 0.9 + X ).

I cant understand why I didnt think of simply finding meeting point for straights and thus find the point on which multiplier a > b, making stat points the unknown.

1.25 ( X/100 + 1 ) > ( 1 + 0.9 + X/150 ) // x 150
187.5 ( X/100 + 1 ) > 150 ( 1+ 0.9 + X/150 )
1.875X + 187.5 > 150 + 135 + X
1.875X - X > 285 - 187.5
0.875X > 97.5 // :0.875
X > 111.4

I guess you can do things the hard way or the easy way <.<

I would like to create a paragraph(?) of straights though as it would really simplify matter imo. But last time I looked, couldnt find a free site for such, not gonna pay for another program I use rarely <.<. As fun as VAC is for trolling vent with various troll songs, really not worth the money I paid for it <.<.

Brillance - Raging Tide

I think Magic classes should have those advantages. They certainly dont have much going for them otherwise.

We fight things using T-shirts mostly for armor. o.O

We can get a large HP pool, and decent P Def - we just wont be able to kill anything or heal it very efficiently.

My mystic would be like a Catabarb. High HP, great defense, and maybe able to leave a red mark somewhere after I slap at you, lol. b:laugh

I personally think the game is balanced pretty well when it come to that. b:pleased

VKnightV - Lost City

then we can agree to disagree and leave mag as it is.

why remove something that is not broken ( or more broken then something else in the game )


my 2 last cent on this discusion b:chuckle