Sage archer

Thunderbow - Momaganon
Thunderbow - Momaganon Posts: 85 Arc User
edited January 2012 in Archer
many ppl say Sage archers are fail i want to go Sage but cuz ppl say that i wannna go Sage Are sage archers really so yes What makes Demon better? ty for answering and dont come with silly 5 aps and no trolls
Post edited by Thunderbow - Momaganon on
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    A lot of people go sage for the wrong reasons and are then disappointed when they are not doing 30% more damage than demon. I think it's pretty good once you get all the skills but demon shines a lot earlier than that.
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Thunderbow - Momaganon wrote: »
    many ppl say Sage archers are fail i want to go Sage but cuz ppl say that i wannna go Sage Are sage archers really so yes What makes Demon better? ty for answering and dont come with silly 5 aps and no trolls

    With that train of thought... you are better off going demon.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Throwing in my piece and hopefully leaving before the trolls arrive... <_>
    Thunderbow - Momaganon wrote: »
    many ppl say Sage archers are fail i want to go Sage but cuz ppl say that i wannna go Sage Are sage archers really so yes What makes Demon better? ty for answering and dont come with silly 5 aps and no trolls
    The thing you need to understand is that it all depends on your playstyle. Demon is usually considered better because your DPS will, generally, be higher. And in PVP, this is perhaps a good reason to go demon under any circumstance. But in PVE, it's really your choice.

    From my own research of the demon skills (and comments from the forums) and from personally having learned every sage skill except for Barrage (currently), I can tell you that sage is good for a person who wants a relaxed playstyle and who wants their skills to pack more of a sustained punch. Sage also generates more chi with several skills (not to mention the intrinsic sage skill which grants you 50 chi per minute). Demon, by contrast, focuses on maximizing DPS through the use of short-term buffs (I like to call them "microbuffs") and spark.

    For instance:
    Quickshot - Sage increases chi, Demon grants you an APS microbuff (this is one of the most loved demon skills)

    Stun Arrow - Sage increases the stun time, Demon gives you a crit% microbuff.

    Sharptooth - Sage increases the debuff effect, Demon gives you a crit% microbuff.

    Blazing Arrow - Sage increases static fire damage boost, Demon gives you a microbuff that adds more fire damage.

    Bow Mastery - Sage increases static damage boost, Demon gives a permanent crit% buff.

    Winged Blessing - Sage increases the range further, Demon gives a permanent crit% buff.



    There are other skills that are good for demon, and there are other skills that are good for sage. In the end, don't listen to what any one person on this board tells you. Whatever skills look better to you, that's the culti you follow. If you want to maximize DPS and don't mind juggling a few microbuffs and relying more on crit, then demon is for you. If you want a more balanced, DPH-like approach with better debuffs and more chi, go sage. But making your own decision and being happy with it is far more important than just doing what you're told.
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  • prof
    prof Posts: 1,111
    edited September 2011
    i'd say it has more to do with gear choice than play style

    demon: higher atk rate, more critical, better buffs, better barrage
    sage: lower casting time, longer stuns, bigger hp debuff, higher base damage, longer range, winged pledge becomes more effective than 5.0 fist(short term)

    but.

    demon will do better, even with lesser benefits, if you have the same style of gear. this is because, where i'm from, sage isn't expected to be using normal atk, they should be using their skills that get the biggest bonus from the additional passive damage.

    for this reason, as a sage archer, you would want to find gear that has channeling on it.

    for example:
    http://pwcalc.com/30219cce52462579

    -27% channeling archer, that's more than most pwi casters b:laugh but with this you gain:

    faster metal attacks, a near instant stun and wingrise(forget pwi name, -30% damage/antistun/immune to damage 3s skill), and you'll be using 2-3 skills in the time a caster uses a single skill(due to having naturally lower cast times). with this cast rate, even those useless poison+bleed skills become somewhat useful due to using skills so fast.

    in the end though, i can't necessarly say sage would do better, i just know it does better with a higher -channeling. demon archers will always have the ability just to stun -> quickshot any target to successfully kill them, sage takes a lot more .. oomph.
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I'm a sage and also have all books in my possession learned aside from Stormrage Eagleon and Serrated (rots in my bank for the moment ^^).

    The comments in this thread make valid points. Demon does have much more dps potential and the way it was described by Miugre, I won't bother attempting to do any better. It's all a matter of playstyle preference.

    Personally in my low levels I always found myself constantly low on chi due to stunlocking mobs in BH, BoA in FC or just sparking in general in BH79. I felt like I never had the chi to spare to use WoG effectively, given this is all somewhat easier with the acquisition of a third spark. Sage is definitely more inclined to skill spamming.
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    b:bye
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    prof wrote: »
    for example:
    http://pwcalc.com/30219cce52462579

    -27% channeling archer, that's more than most pwi casters b:laugh but with this you gain:

    But Pan Gu Creator says it gives a 1% channelling bonus. (But I have not checked with eye of observation.)

    Does it really give a 3% channelling bonus?
  • prof
    prof Posts: 1,111
    edited September 2011
    yeah, and the -2% book gives -6.

    -1 and -2 mods don't exist in pw, lol
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    prof wrote: »
    yeah, and the -2% book gives -6.

    -1 and -2 mods don't exist in pw, lol

    I don't see how that could be the case:

    http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/17683
    The text on the item is the yellow stuff on the left but on the right those stats come from the skill IDs. If it was the -3% stat it would show as that (since it would have the same skill id as other gear with -3%).

    When I am using just the tome and use my jungle belt I only see -1% channeling. http://imgur.com/bTUO4

    Other people have tested -channeling with regards to the 99% limit and if what you are saying was true it would **** up their results.
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  • Nightsfangs - Archosaur
    Nightsfangs - Archosaur Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    But Pan Gu Creator says it gives a 1% channelling bonus. (But I have not checked with eye of observation.)

    Does it really give a 3% channelling bonus?

    PanGu gives -1% channeling.

    How do I know?

    Cause I got it xD.
    The voices in my head might not be real..............................................................but they have some good ideas!
  • xconfidex
    xconfidex Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I don't see how that could be the case:

    http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/17683
    The text on the item is the yellow stuff on the left but on the right those stats come from the skill IDs. If it was the -3% stat it would show as that (since it would have the same skill id as other gear with -3%).

    When I am using just the tome and use my jungle belt I only see -1% channeling. http://imgur.com/bTUO4

    Other people have tested -channeling with regards to the 99% limit and if what you are saying was true it would **** up their results.

    I don't know if this eye only scans face value(adding gear+buffs) or the true value, but I do know for a fact that no -1% or -2% channeling mod exist in pw. The ones that do exist is: 3, 5, 6, 9, 10, 15, and 20. You could probably google this.

    Also, channeling caps at 90% doesn't it? He said that in another post.
  • beniyoung
    beniyoung Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Firts i'm a sage archer. Sage archers are a debuff class is for pve or tw (debuff enemies). And you want farm nirvana with claws and aps will be hard. Demon is better for pvp or nirvana. Damage to the sage is more continuous and does not vary much as the demon that is affected for skills as Quickshot, Sharptooth, Stunarrow...but demon will become op with thats microbuffs and deal a great damage more than sage.

    And finally you choose sage or demon path according to your game playstyle.
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    With that train of thought... you are better off going demon.

    I have to agree with this^ >.>

    All I will say is that with today's gear potentials, a well geared sage archer is not fail by any means.

    But Demon is also more objectively awesome in almost every viewpoint you could take to look at the effectiveness of an archer. They can do more with less in terms of gear( assuming they have their demon skills). One thing I do not appreciate is that people tend to describe the advantages of demon as "more dps", and this just makes it sound like you will automatically have a faster normal attack speed once you turn in that cultivation quest. No, it's not like that.

    but if you can not afford or do not plan to obtain overpowered gear at any time, I wouldn't recommend sage.
  • prof
    prof Posts: 1,111
    edited September 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I don't see how that could be the case:

    http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/17683
    The text on the item is the yellow stuff on the left but on the right those stats come from the skill IDs. If it was the -3% stat it would show as that (since it would have the same skill id as other gear with -3%).

    When I am using just the tome and use my jungle belt I only see -1% channeling. http://imgur.com/bTUO4

    Other people have tested -channeling with regards to the 99% limit and if what you are saying was true it would **** up their results.

    that eye sounds broken, i know very well those mods don't exist. maybe it only counts what your gear says it gives? like confide said, those are the only possible cast mods

    not sure how you could actually test your channeling in pwi, you could do it with 95% cap, not 90
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Channeling max is 99% but if you try to go past 99% it drops you down to 90%. This is what the eye shows and it is confirmed by timing channel on town portal skill (10s channeling). If that tome really is 3% why doesn't it have the same prop id as the one for 3%? It has a different prop id.

    Not only this but the value is consistent with the value you get from the eye. If it was really 3% then the eye would show no difference between having the tome and having a 3% ring.

    The eye however can tell the difference between the tome and ring and presents a view consistent with pwdatabase and with the text on the tome. The eye responds correctly to buffs and equipment changes as well and has been very reliable since it was introduced.

    Is your knowledge from an older version of pwi? Perhaps it has since been changed in the current version.

    What evidence is there of hidden channeling on that ring?
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  • prof
    prof Posts: 1,111
    edited October 2011
    what ring?

    every possible mod in the game is in the same sheet, which was released publicly on other(not so legal) forums. this is consistent with the genesis update.

    if for some reason, since genesis's original release, it was changed.. well, then; i've got nothing.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    prof wrote: »
    what ring?

    every possible mod in the game is in the same sheet, which was released publicly on other(not so legal) forums. this is consistent with the genesis update.

    if for some reason, since genesis's original release, it was changed.. well, then; i've got nothing.

    Fiend's Ring has a -3% channel on it. Tome has something different. I could be more specific with the ids but dont have sELedit handy atm..
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  • _Cruzer_ - Lost City
    _Cruzer_ - Lost City Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Concidering u all went for channeling talk.... im worried about you all....

    Sage is the skillreluctant cultivation, requires more skill to use and more brain.

    Demon is the easy way to go, higher DPS more crit etc. (most go demon only for spark and quick shot tho)

    In pvp sage is actually better if known how to play, but as ive said requires more skill to play.

    Its also advicable to look at the skills and see what u think will fit ur playing style, spamming 1 button for quick shot in pvp or more skills.
  • prof
    prof Posts: 1,111
    edited October 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Fiend's Ring has a -3% channel on it. Tome has something different. I could be more specific with the ids but dont have sELedit handy atm..

    well, there's more than 30,000 mod id's, in which most of them appear multiple times. if i had to guess, they appear in groups for armour, weapon, accessory, tome, blessing, etc
  • laloner
    laloner Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Everyone seems in agreement that Demons do more DPS. Is this because of Demon spark? If so is there a thread where the math for this is worked out. Its not that I doubt the claim just want to see the numbers.

    I have some questions that I've never seen answered despite the tons of threads on this subject. One is are sage archers better at soloing in PVE? Seems like better defense would make that so, curious about it.

    Is Sage Take Aim useful in TW or does the long charge time make it too noticeable to the target?

    It seems most people don't put much value on the extra range of a Sage archer. I'm curious as to why this isn't important. I'm especially curious about this with regards to Psychics. Fighting pys is _hard_, I've decided to just not shoot at them unless I'm out of their range. So 2M would help with that and other than outranging them I don't think there is a lot to do to them. Pretty much the same with Sins, other than having more range they have better skills so why not maximize the one thing you do so much better.
    AKA PermaSpark, Heartshatter
  • Reducto - Harshlands
    Reducto - Harshlands Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I am a sage archer, and i dont know why people are dissing on the sage path so much, cause i honestly LOVE IT..
    How i choose my path.. well i write all the skills and give them points from 1-10 for how much i like that skill, and at the end i calculate to see what path i'd like more to go :p


    The only benefit i see from demon is that you would hit faster when you ll demon spark or use quick shot demon, but this is mostly beneficial when killing a boss (since you will be hitting faster then sage archer.. daa), and regarding for pvp, the gear is what does really matter (and than your little 'skill' usage).

    But your character should also evolve with the current pwi play style. For example, from lvl80 to 100 people do fc, so whatever path you choose it will not make too much difference for faster to do fc or slower. If you do quests, than demon helps here better (and i assume that you ll only have sage/demon spark at this time, wont spend on skills till you hit 100 (unless you can afford it lol)), since when you spark you ll hit faster (daa), but i doubt you or any ll do the boring quests...

    for pvp, well you should also evolve on this field. If you can not get r9, then its dark times for your pvp..


    So think when you get 100 what you gonna do, since you are not gonna be wanted for aps nirvanas (even if you are a clawarcher, you ll do mostly normal runs (stick to the 99 key quest) , or do tts with friends and thats regarding the pve (so from here, see the skills and choose By Your Own the path that seems more 'interesting' to you)..
    regarding the pvp, well r9 or gtfo as an archer, no matter what path you take...



    Edit:
    laloner wrote: »
    Everyone seems in agreement that Demons do more DPS. Is this because of Demon spark? If so is there a thread where the math for this is worked out. Its not that I doubt the claim just want to see the numbers.
    well it is because you hit faster with the demon spark (and you have also a skill - quickshot which gives you bit more aps). So thats how demons hits higher, if 2 archers (demon and sage) would have the same dph, then demon will out damage the sage when he sparks.. nothing needed to calculate here :/
    laloner wrote: »
    I have some questions that I've never seen answered despite the tons of threads on this subject. One is are sage archers better at soloing in PVE? Seems like better defense would make that so, curious about it.
    If you are talking about questing as pve, then no, i think demon will be better. If you are talking about instances and you wanna build an aps archer (with using claws), demon will be easier to get, but if you manage to make sage archer unsparked 5aps then yea, sage is better at this point. But i suggest if you are making a clawcher, then better reroll a bm (today it can take up to 1 week to get to 100)
    laloner wrote: »
    Is Sage Take Aim useful in TW or does the long charge time make it too noticeable to the target?
    Well its good for both paths, i with sage take aim could even one shot arcane classes in tw's (sparked + take aim = sure kill for r8 clerics), but i font know, maybe you ll get the same dmg with demon take aim? (if that 100% are not so much of a difference)
    laloner wrote: »
    It seems most people don't put much value on the extra range of a Sage archer. I'm curious as to why this isn't important. I'm especially curious about this with regards to Psychics. Fighting pys is _hard_, I've decided to just not shoot at them unless I'm out of their range. So 2M would help with that and other than outranging them I don't think there is a lot to do to them. Pretty much the same with Sins, other than having more range they have better skills so why not maximize the one thing you do so much better.
    Well thats because most of the people are demons, and most of the people will defend their own thing by dissing everything that isnt theirs (like mine is better at every aspect) :p
    Now thats really a nice benefit with the extra range, especially for tw. But, the difference honestly is not sooo much noticeable, because here the lag/delay also plays its own roll...
  • laloner
    laloner Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Reducto - Harshlands wrote: »
    Edit:

    well it is because you hit faster with the demon spark (and you have also a skill - quickshot which gives you bit more aps). So thats how demons hits higher, if 2 archers (demon and sage) would have the same dph, then demon will out damage the sage when he sparks.. nothing needed to calculate here :/

    I understand the difference between sage and demon sparks but sage archers have a stronger normal attack and I wonder if anyone has ever worked all the math out about how much of a DPS difference there will be.
    AKA PermaSpark, Heartshatter
  • Reducto - Harshlands
    Reducto - Harshlands Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    laloner wrote: »
    I understand the difference between sage and demon sparks but sage archers have a stronger normal attack and I wonder if anyone has ever worked all the math out about how much of a DPS difference there will be.

    well its not that hard, why dont you do it by yourself?

    lets take this build for example, with the every -int gear on it
    http://pwcalc.com/31e4c0332a00dae3

    so we see normal aps is: 1.05 and normal dmg is: 9555-13733

    if we add demon bow mastery and if we spark we ll get dmg of: 23022-33088 and aps of: 1.43

    and for sage spark with sage bow mastery we ll get dmg of: 23373-33592, but with normal aps (1.05)

    so if we use the formula: ([min atk]+[max attack])/2*1.[crit rate]*[aps]

    we get

    Demon DPH: 28055 < Sage DPH: 28482
    BUT
    Demon DPS: 56166 > Sage DPS: 41570

    So there you have the pure dmg difference between sage and demon..
  • laloner
    laloner Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Reducto - Harshlands wrote: »
    well its not that hard, why dont you do it by .

    I never said it was hard. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by pointing out shortcomings in your original answer. But really, get over it.
    AKA PermaSpark, Heartshatter
  • Aesthor - Heavens Tear
    Aesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    laloner wrote: »
    I never said it was hard. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by pointing out shortcomings in your original answer. But really, get over it.

    Dude he just told you how to do it. You didn't point out any shortcomings in anyone's answer, you got lazy and begged someone else to do the embarrassingly easy math for you.
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Reducto - Harshlands wrote: »
    http://pwcalc.com/31e4c0332a00dae3
    ...
    we get

    Demon DPH: 28055 < Sage DPH: 28482
    BUT
    Demon DPS: 56166 > Sage DPS: 41570

    ...

    I think that you should have noted that these DPS numbers are burst dps, and not sustained dps. And Demon has other ways of getting good burst dps numbers (though this particular one has perhaps the least setup penalty, and is most comparable to sage).

    But sustained DPS requires additional work (because you must consider the entire triple spark cycle, including chi gain and the 3 seconds when you do not do anything). And you can manage that cycle in so many different ways.
  • laloner
    laloner Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Dude he just told you how to do it. You didn't point out any shortcomings in anyone's answer, you got lazy and begged someone else to do the embarrassingly easy math for you.

    His first answer to my question was wrong and when I pointed that out his feelings got hurt and he tried to show me up by pretending to be a math wiz and implying that I was lazy. There was no reason for that and nothing wrong with my responding to his immaturity.

    As to the math being "embarrassingly" easy he even got the math wrong so rethink your whole comment from the ground up.
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I think that you should have noted that these DPS numbers are burst dps, and not sustained dps. And Demon has other ways of getting good burst dps numbers (though this particular one has perhaps the least setup penalty, and is most comparable to sage).

    But sustained DPS requires additional work (because you must consider the entire triple spark cycle, including chi gain and the 3 seconds when you do not do anything). And you can manage that cycle in so many different ways.

    Yes, I wanted to know if anyone had done the math this way and it seems no one has.
    AKA PermaSpark, Heartshatter
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    What is the point of discussing sustained DPS? Will you really base your culti decision on who deals more DPS to bosses over 20min or something?

    Demons deal higher DPS when it matters because of extra crit rate. The fact that both STA and stun gives the crit buff means you will most likely end up with the crit buff when you fight people. Quickshot is another way Demons can deal higher burst DPS.

    No one calculates this **** here because it's been done to death before. Sage's Weapon mastery and Blazing bonus amounts to no more than 1k raw damage endgame with the best weapon, shards, and rings possible. That is a good oh...6% more damage over Demon.
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  • codeman200
    codeman200 Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    hostname: healgoddess.hostventrilo.net
    Port 9979
    Password:Chocolate





    Happy Trolling :D
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Since it seems like the majority of player on PWI are idiots. I'll try to give you guys an flow charting regarding selecting cults that even a compete idiot can follow.

    1. Are you an idiot?
    ~ Yes - Go Demon
    ~ No - Move to 2

    2. Did you make a thread on the forum asking for help to pick your OWN cults.
    ~ Yes - Go demon
    ~ No - Move to 3

    3. Will you be the third sage archer on the ENTIRE server? And have an weapon ranked in the top percentile of archers?
    ~ Yes - Go sage
    ~ No - Go demon
    ~ What? - Move to 4

    4. Are you willing to drop 5k gold on your gear only to have it worth 50 gold the next day?
    ~ Yes - You are an idiot. Flip a ****ing coin to determine your cult.
    ~ No - You are useless. Doesn't matter what cult you pick... you will still be useless.

    By the end of question 4... you should hopefully have selected your cult.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

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  • Aesthor - Heavens Tear
    Aesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    LOLz b:laugh
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