Sage archer

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

If your so thuper pro why havent you gotten a 4th map belt instead of that piece of ****?

I never claimed to be 'thuper pro'. My gear is pretty trash lol, yet countless other r8s somehow post calcs with lower damage numbers. As I have stated previously, I haven't really been doing PvE for like a year at least. Mostly just chatting, guide writing and TW. I never grinded. Ever. So your arguments seem to think that I actually bother to play this game anymore, lol. I've spent more time in the last year on forums than on server actually doing instances because: Game is dead.

Why would I bother doing an entire 100 culti for a belt that is only marginally better in the defense that I actually care about now? (m def; I imagine a Paradise Satchet gives less than 100 more m def total when both Demon Slaughter and the satchet are +12; inb4lolvitandhpadds,idcsinceionlyTW). I don't actually play this game aside from TW. bolded since you cant read good

Requoted some key fragments since you seemed to miss my main points entirely:

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have a higher 'passive' crit rate than most sages so I didnt state the obvious. Soloing entire squads? fun. I love stunlock and I love never being hit. my gear isn't very great and cultivation does not matter at all. PvE sucks . I also lack any desire to PvE again.

Quilue - Sanctuary

That's obviously why you should afk merchant a R9 belt instead. Don't even need to refine that junk!

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's obviously why you should afk merchant a R9 belt instead. Don't even need to refine that junk!

Good point. Maybe if I start playing this as my main game again. (FW and Uncharted 3 take up most of my time now)

Anfisa - Lost City

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

My gear is pretty trash lol, yet countless other r8s somehow post calcs with lower damage numbers.

That's because every archer nowdays seems to rush getting r8 upon hitting 100 and ignore all their other equipment, thus all the low damage numbers.

snufalufaguss

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Soloing entire squads?

That is a pretty bold claim for having less than 8k hp buffed. I doubt this would happen against factions like Regen, Spades, or any other of the top factions that have organized TW.

I could see it against a faction like Renegades where they have kamikaze level 70 players coming at you though.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

Lol I'm full r9 with +10 armors and I can't solo an entire squad if the opponents are worth fighting. Of course if you can get 6 level 80s to stand close enough together I can probably get them all with STA :P.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm a pure bow sage and My build does quite well in TW and all other things I needed in game when I still played often. I dps harder than anything with similar gear/aps levels due to genie combos and have a higher crit rate than most demon archers, due to them being fist build with 117+ base str.

While I can believe that you could have more crit then me with r8 gear. I don't believe 36% crit is more then what I currently have. That being said... crit means nothing when your crit does less damage then my non-crit. Your high end of 15k dmg with 15 atk level comes out to be about 17k... so 34k crit (even with jones blessing that would be 19k base and 39k crit). My high end of 23k?... factoring in atk levels would easily break 40k (forgot my exact dmg and atk level). Now do you see the problem?

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Soloing entire squads

Whats your point... I can one shot an entire guild if you place them all within a 12m radius of an center point. Nevermind that they are all level 9x with **** refines. That being said... I doubt you can solo any squad that I am in.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

snufalufaguss wrote: »

That is a pretty bold claim for having less than 8k hp buffed. I doubt this would happen against factions like Regen, Spades, or any other of the top factions that have organized TW.

I could see it against a faction like Renegades where they have kamikaze level 70 players coming at you though.

My TW experience comes from being in InTandem vs. mostly Bootycamp and EQ. Afterwards it comes from being in Kindrid vs. , Bootycamp, Tempest and EQ.

And no (I assume Dsholder?), Against Renegades I probably could not get a kill since they only fielded around 14 players when I did go and I didn't bother to show up for those TWs after the first one (TW is generally right after work for me lol).

Additionally, HP matters very little if I happen to barely get hit (Still have 7.9k buffed :P). Hooray for stunlock and kiting \o/.

@Kiyoshi: The point of my previous paragraph (the one you quoted) was to provide input as to how a r8 sage archer can do well, even with a lack of purge and atk/def lvls, seeing as Aizza asked about a good r8 sage archer build. I don't see any other r8 sages on these forums :P. So I provided a build and examples from my most recent TW, just to say it is possible to defeat several opponents at once with r8 gears and provide a context. Frenzy ftw. Kiting ftw. Tactics ftw! And no, I probably can't solo you, especially since you are sage. However, I can definitely do a lot of damage to anyone in the amount of time that Aim Low and Sage Stun pin someone down (4.5+8-chan time for aim low/stepping back to dead zone, Sage Spark+Frenzy+Jones). After that its just basic kiting and then stepping in when I sense hesitation . Take em out 1 by 1.

Additionally, Soloing =/= One shotting. Its more like, defeating several players in the course of a minute or 2 by yourself :P. And yes, I was targeted :P. I don't consider tab+autoattack on busy opponents a challenge. I know for sure I at one point survived, a barb, a sin, 2 archers, a veno and a psy. There might have been a cleric, I can't remember since anyone that is r8+5 give or take a refine or 2 is generally a 2-3 shot if I crit and many casters are still one shots. How was I surviving? *points to kiting, charms, crabs, WoG, Shell, stunlock and sage range*

snufalufaguss

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Additionally, HP matters very little if I happen to barely get hit (Still have 7.9k buffed :P). Hooray for stunlock and kiting \o/.

HP matters a lot if you are talking about soloing a good squad. If you were attacking me, my squad would know very quickly. If you managed to kill me, you will still have been put in their sights by now. If you continue to try and solo my squad, you will be annihilated with little effort. With your HP and defenses you will be killed in one or two shots. Not saying you can't solo a squad. I imagine if the right situation is present it is possible. I am just saying that it isn't something you can do at will.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

snufalufaguss wrote: »

HP matters a lot if you are talking about soloing a good squad. If you were attacking me, my squad would know very quickly. If you managed to kill me, you will still have been put in their sights by now. If you continue to try and solo my squad, you will be annihilated with little effort. With your HP and defenses you will be killed in one or two shots. Not saying you can't solo a squad. I imagine if the right situation is present it is possible. I am just saying that it isn't something you can do at will.

I suppose. I generally end up just soloing the right side defense squads if my faction is doing a center or left rush. And I am generally the one being targetted by 4 or 5 ppl since I kill a bunch on my way up the paths.

And realistically, yes it is easy to prepare for a threat you know well. However, many people expect me to lone suicide them or they rush because they have superior numbers. When I kite and take out their melees because they over extend their reach, their casters/cleric are easy 2-3 shots. Any archer ever should have experienced something like this. Also, you underestimate my use of the word kiting. Anyone that strays too far from the rest of the squad is immediately dead and I am still at a safe distance ready to fight the next idiot dumb enough to try anything. (Normally the BM goes down first or the Veno, then a sin tries to gank, tank him, pew pew the psy/archer, get the cleric, and turn on the sin finally lol). Or an archer will rush out toward me, trying the same strat I employ. Lo and behold I stunlock in deadzone and 2-3 shot them. I mean, the stuff I am saying isnt that rare. Kite until aim low/stun cooldowns, if the enemy squad is coordinating well, break their coordination. If they chase me long enough, they will lose their formation and once that happens and I can get afew seconds alone then its game over for them. In a different styled example, many times have I run up on squads, killed the cleric, kited, then killed the bm and archer. Then went back for the remaining DDs that didnt take notice of me immediately :P. Simple flanking ftw! Nixes are still a ***** tho, I honestly started to prioritize Venos over Clerics for that reason alone lol.

^Long wall of txt style train of thought

snufalufaguss

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

(Normally the BM goes down first or the Veno, then a sin tries to gank, tank him, pew pew the psy/archer, get the cleric, and turn on the sin finally lol

I guess all these players are just standing around talking about their fashion or something while you are picking them off? Or are they TWing and using genie/apo/defensive skills and coming after you?

Also, in the top factions, they don't let just any sin TW. They will no doubt be hitting you with +10 G13 nirvy at least or maybe rank 9. How you going to tank that?

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Additionally, HP matters very little if I happen to barely get hit (Still have 7.9k buffed :P). Hooray for stunlock and kiting \o/.

Sage archers get hit just as much as demon. That extra 2m isn't going to do **** in any type of pk with more then a few people.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Kiyoshi: The point of my previous paragraph (the one you quoted) was to provide input as to how a r8 sage archer can do well, even with a lack of purge and atk/def lvls, seeing as Aizza asked about a good r8 sage archer build. I don't see any other r8 sages on these forums :P. So I provided a build and examples from my most recent TW, just to say it is possible to defeat several opponents at once with r8 gears and provide a context. Frenzy ftw. Kiting ftw. Tactics ftw! And no, I probably can't solo you, especially since you are sage.

r8 sage is only good until you run in to an r9. My r8 was +12... and yet I jump on the r9 bandwagon after my first tw with an r9 as my opponent. My r8 armor also is of higher refine then yours... although my are dots... but regardless i know i have at least 1k more hp then you with that gear. even with all of that... i still won't make claims that i can solo an entire squad of equal caliber. its really misleading for any archer to mention that s/he can solo an entire squad. No archer in existence can solo an entire squad of equal gear/refined opponents... unless by solo you mean they come at you one at a time.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

However, I can definitely do a lot of damage to anyone in the amount of time that Aim Low and Sage Stun pin someone down (4.5+8-chan time for aim low/stepping back to dead zone, Sage Spark+Frenzy+Jones). After that its just basic kiting and then stepping in when I sense hesitation . Take em out 1 by 1.

Its already mention that its next to improbable for an sage archer to lock another archer in that 2m dead range advantage. anything less... they will hit back. its no doubt you can deal damage. but considering that i double your damage with same crit rate. coupled by the fact that on some robes... a couple of my shots doesn't even break the 2k barrier. your statement that you can deal a lot of damage just isn't true in today's world anymore.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Additionally, Soloing =/= One shotting. Its more like, defeating several players in the course of a minute or 2 by yourself :P. And yes, I was targeted :P. I don't consider tab+autoattack on busy opponents a challenge. I know for sure I at one point survived, a barb, a sin, 2 archers, a veno and a psy. There might have been a cleric, I can't remember since anyone that is r8+5 give or take a refine or 2 is generally a 2-3 shot if I crit and many casters are still one shots. How was I surviving? *points to kiting, charms, crabs, WoG, Shell, stunlock and sage range*

1. you have 7k hp... even buffed to 8k. thats not going to stand up against 2 simultaneous archers attacks. Whatever you are pulling off on the first guy... his buddy can do the same to you. Just doesn't work unless you out gear 1 or both of them.
2. sage's range advantage or kiting for that matter of fact is completely useless against a sin with a quarter of a brain.
3. +7 r8 bow isn't going to kill a level 100 barb (even if he has +5 gear) with half a brain in 10 seconds. especially if he has friends.

I can believe a good archer can take any of those down one at a time (or in manageable pairs). There is no ****ing chance for an archer to take all of them down at the same time... unless you outgear them. I have more or less double your hp and double your damage. If that squad gets the jump on me with my guards down... i am not so sure i can walk out alive. There are 3 classes with stuns... 2 classes with debuffs. if i can ****ed by sleep... its going to be an uphill fight even if i survive the veno/genie/cleric debuff triple sparked tempest.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Fairly good Kiyoshi post

I think you overestimate the skill level of the average pve player. I don't feel like busting out a Fleuri like D&D post, so I won't. Soloing an entire squad? It is doable pending mistakes and overconfidence/hesitation when events happen. Some players seem to panic when their barb suddenly drops dead or their cleric goes down. It happens. Like I said, I don't fight the best of the best I suppose, my job is to take out the defense and flank their main force. And positioning yourself so you can pick off one person without getting hit and then escaping so you can do it again in afew seconds with Aim Low is not overly hard, especially when a barb or something will rush you, letting you already pick them off away from their squad. Divide and conquer. Given, if I get attacked I still have manageable escapes, but it is very rare as of late that I get caught by 2 or more opponents and am unable to immune pot or holy path to back up. I suppose I don't really attack per se, as much as I just zone an area and kill anything that tries to take me out or force our line back. Sometimes I move my zone up, I have no qualms about brief retreats to lure someone to chase me. Some chase, some don't and thats when a squad gets separated and destroyed. Need I say that I don't need to kill everything in TW, but if I can stop and halt an entire squad, or what is basically a squad (could have been 6+ randoms for all I know, they were coordinating somewhat at various points though). Perhaps my refines and gear is just godly in non-r9 TWs where my factions main force is attacking the left gate and I am at the right/center.

And in today's world in DW, most non r9s have worse armor than me or on par armor, many do have higher refined bows, but many also have +10 deicides and +4 r8 bows, they have -int/chan capes and -int/chan ornas pending class and they don't pvp aside from TW. I imagine most even lack base tactics from squad based FPS games or any actual duel practice. I have had extensive practice against sins. Many are dumb enough to blindly rush because that is what works in pve most of the time. All I have to do is take a few steps back and destroy them. Then advance when the next guy pauses. If I spot 6 people advancing I am a going to flank and take out the Veno or Cleric first and possibly another DD before they even notice I am on them. I try to always be at max range and come from the side that is safest without getting hit.


I mean, I'm not that great and I know it. And your arguments with me keep digressing from my original point, r8 can be effective. You have to know what fights you can win and what you can't. You need to choose your openings. If I run into a r9 and I try to fight them and can't defeat them, bet your *** I will wait on back up or kite and attack again when they are distracted. I can't always win, but its better than being a tab one shot and blindly rushing into death. Hooray for logical thought .

@_bloodrain_: This wall of text is for you (mostly for Kiyoshi but yea) old school like its June or something lol.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I can believe a good archer can take any of those down one at a time (or in manageable pairs).

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And positioning yourself so you can pick off one person without getting hit and then escaping so you can do it again in afew seconds with Aim Low is not overly hard, especially when a barb or something will rush you, letting you already pick them off away from their squad. Divide and conquer.

As per my post... there is no doubt an archer can kill any single one of those on a 1v1 (charmed pk) fight. Which your post seems to echo. But when you said you can solo an entire squad... that usually imply that you took on a whole squad of 6 at the same time. While its the same amount of kills at the end... a 1v1 and 6v1 fight is very different.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If I spot 6 people advancing I am a going to flank and take out the Veno or Cleric first and possibly another DD before they even notice I am on them.

Yea... that's not going to happen to a semi coherent squad. You are suggesting that you can take out half of the squad before they even notice? The only real way for that to happen is by one shots... and we're back at the gear difference. I think most top tier TW squads draw the minimum at 10k hp, 25 def levels, and 100 attack levels.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As per my post... there is no doubt an archer can kill any single one of those on a 1v1 (charmed pk) fight. Which your post seems to echo. But when you said you can solo an entire squad... that usually imply that you took on a whole squad of 6 at the same time. While its the same amount of kills at the end... a 1v1 and 6v1 fight is very different.

Agree. I suppose I meant several 1v1 thru 3v1s then I guess, broken up in a short time span (like 2 minutes tops since it doesnt take long to kill someone, I suppose if I kite for a charm tick then it counts as a new fight even though I am still actively in combat? Either way, I agree, end result is 1 remains and the others are dead. Probably much more apparent and often if r9)

Yea... that's not going to happen to a semi coherent squad. You are suggesting that you can take out half of the squad before they even notice? The only real way for that to happen is by one shots... and we're back at the gear difference. I think most top tier TW squads draw the minimum at 10k hp, 25 def levels, and 100 attack levels.

Well, again I play on DW and not in the top factions so very few r9s in my battles. Even so, its not like I try to solo the enemy faction. I'm just a key DDer and I do what I am supposed to do, kill people. I'm sure amongst the list of names to look for in my faction, but I doubt I am as high of priority as a r9 archer or wizard or BM. I suppose most of the stronger players in a faction rush the center, so yeah, I am generally either in the air or well away from most enemies on the out side paths, so maybe I just miss out on all the r9 fun :P.

If I crit an Aim Low it is often enough damage to kill an opponent, I still regularly one shot people with similar or slightly higher gear. Ticking a charm with Aim Low and then Stunning at the end of it after backing out of attack range will still give me enough time to kill someone stronger than me. I can imagine it is only easier to kill with a Purge bow and more attack levels.

Random aside, is it true TW on PvP servers is far more heavily air focused as opposed to how it is land focused on DW?

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

b:chuckle Oh yes, how fun it was to read those pro-sage culti/anti-archer 5.0 essays from you Vindis

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

e, is it true TW on PvP servers is far more heavily air focused as opposed to how it is land focused on DW?

^ as for this I would think it varies from TW to TW. But I would not be surprised if it were true. Due to more world PvP experience on PvP servers, they are probably much more ready and willing to take it to the air, as they are likely to be used to air PvP. Whereas in PvE servers, many people do not even realize that pvp can happen in air, they may not even know it to be an option if they are inexperienced.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:chuckle Oh yes, how fun it was to read those pro-sage culti/anti-archer 5.0 essays from you Vindis



^ as for this I would think it varies from TW to TW. But I would not be surprised if it were true. Due to more world PvP experience on PvP servers, they are probably much more ready and willing to take it to the air, as they are likely to be used to air PvP. Whereas in PvE servers, many people do not even realize that pvp can happen in air, they may not even know it to be an option if they are inexperienced.

Yea I fly at max height alot and just destroy people. I heard that on DW particularly not many people fly compared to other servers. More flying in bigger fac fights, but tbh more than 50% of everyone on both sides is on the ground just doing a middle rush lol.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yea I fly at max height alot and just destroy people. I heard that on DW particularly not many people fly compared to other servers. More flying in bigger fac fights, but tbh more than 50% of everyone on both sides is on the ground just doing a middle rush lol.

btw, I think you guys got me playing this game again >_>

Idk if thats a good thing or a bad thing yet xD

Quilue - Sanctuary

The air to ground damage reduction pretty much assures that fighting on the ground would be more dominant...because the cats are on the ground. Air squads are just for fighting clerics and enemy air squads mostly, because clerics like to float in the air to heal so they are not bothered by heavies (BMs, barbs) on the ground as much.

If you try to attack air clerics from the ground you basically have to move directly below them and be up in the enemy's faces ie: not a good idea. That's why you have air squads.

Alternatively you can just barrage whoever is being stacked and with luck, the cleric gets hit too. Lol.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

The air to ground damage reduction pretty much assures that fighting on the ground would be more dominant...because the cats are on the ground. Air squads are just for fighting clerics and enemy air squads mostly, because clerics like to float in the air to heal so they are not bothered by heavies (BMs, barbs) on the ground as much.

If you try to attack air clerics from the ground you basically have to move directly below them and be up in the enemy's faces ie: not a good idea. That's why you have air squads.

Alternatively you can just barrage whoever is being stacked and with luck, the cleric gets hit too. Lol.

In general air targets are really soft targets that otherwise won't make the cut against ground forces in a given TW. While I spend most of my time on the ground... when I do take to the air its not out of the realm of possibility for me to clear out half of enemy air forces. With the current armor defense its not really sense-able to be up in the air when targeting ground forces. So essentially there is no reason for any heavy DDs to be in the air other then a quick cleric sweep once in a while.

devotion

What? People don't pvp in the air? That's pretty sad... it's well known that any ranged class should bring the fight to the air. Your kiting potential is severely limited when you fight on the ground. I don't actually remember any large pvp battles I was in that took place on the ground besides in YKD and those battles were simply determined by the number of BMs. I'd consider it mandatory that archers always get off the ground in pvp.

For TW it really depends. Back in the day you couldn't fly in TW and those TWs took a lot more skill. Front lines were much more established and a BMs role was paramount. You needed competent BMs with coordinated rushes to ever win a TW. The walls around the bases actually meant something in terms of defense. Every thing was funneled through the gate since getting on top of the wall was shut down by archers. Not to mention you had to see your target since there wasn't tab targetting. A well placed zhen rained a lot of hurt when the archer was hard to target.

Now with flying TW it became pretty chaotic. A normal setup I see is clerics and most venos in the air along with some support from some air archers and a small number of mages for plume shield. BMs still dominate the ground but are less effective now since weapons have become much more powerful and cheaper compared to equivalent armor.

In a coordinated TW your role as an archer should be outlined as offensive/defensive air or ground DD. If your guild doesn't outline your specific role you shouldn't really take to the air as an archer unless you are in your own base. In the lanes a good guild would shut you down if you decided to just fly up and pew some clerics.

snufalufaguss

devotion wrote: »

What? People don't pvp in the air? That's pretty sad...

In TW I usually see archers just standing there like, tab > dead, tab > dead, tab > dead, etc. They depend on their gears more than strategy.

Quilue - Sanctuary

The only times when you can just stand there and tab hit is when

a. the enemy sucks

b. the enemy is confused and disorganized. (usually when their cats die)

c. you lag like **** and must keep max performance on, thereby not seeing anyone to click on.

Most decently geared archers get called out for focus fire, so even the best geared have to hit and run. You should also select your target instead of tab hitting unless the above scenarios are happening, because you should prioritize your targets; otherwise you'll end up wasting time on heavies while their clerics stack their cat barbs.

When you tab target you select the closest opponents first, so it's not really a good idea.

Reifeil - Archosaur

It depends on how you build your sage archer...
Demon does shine, But demon and sage archers dueling in 1 vs 1 is mainly a dead lock... =.=

Demon spark and Sage spark usually end up in a dead lock in duels...

Been in a few annoying but fun.

Demon = Cheeper to get skills easier to get 5 aps
Sage = Expensive but harder to build a really good stable sage archer.

^ thats my veiw.

And please look up the skills and chose what you want and not what other people say...
I don't regret being sage, i love it

But yeah, either way Sage and Demon (arguments is a load of bull **** to me, i see them both with their own pros and cons...)

J_Voorhees - Heavens Tear

Well it depends on what you are planning to do with your archer. That is the first thing.
I see pros on sage side but also many cons.

Lets start with bosses and stuff. On bosses demon archer does more damage on fists/claws and on bow. You got to think twice tho, do you want to survive easier when you hit the boss for 5 aps, or do you want to do more damage?

So here is the thing, when you are with a 5 aps sin in squad, you wont get agro at all. So no point here for a 5 aps sage archer. On demon you will do more damage, at least if you do it right. I spark for example, switch to bow, use stun arrow for 10% more crit, switch back to fists, and attack with a crit rate of 51% @ 5 aps. That deals a lot damage, and you will steal agro from BMs with better and higher refined fists/claws than you have.

For PvP part. Since it really seems like you have to get rank9 to throw a shining light in tws. i cannot tell you which path is better.
When i was tw-ing pre rank 9 hype, I think i put out some decent damage as demon archer. Got a decent amount of kills and that is it, i was never in a tw guild who build up some strategy, we were there for the fun and killed stuff and tried to hit their crystal lol. So i dont know which cultivation works better for strategies.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Air squads in TW were more important back when the nix mattered. An air veno used to be able to kill people on the ground but now air squads can only kill other people in the air.

Clerics are still up there so you can't ignore it. Also it's good to go into the air to hop over the wall. You aren't going to be able to win TW with air dominance, you need boots on the ground.

snufalufaguss

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

you need boots on the ground.

Rick Perry supporter?

laloner

J_Voorhees - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I spark for example, switch to bow, use stun arrow for 10% more crit, switch back to fists, and attack with a crit rate of 51% @ 5 aps.

Whats the math on this? If channel+cast is 2.1 seconds then you are using 14% of your 15 second triple spark not doing damage. A 10% increase in crit rate produces a 10% increase in damage per second. I must be missing something because I don't see the advantage.