Sage archer

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Since you are so secure in yourself... are you one of those who are secure enough to roll over when a bully picks on you? Just going to stand there and be the guy's morning work out? It seems you are defending yourself find with words... only to fail when it comes to action.

There are all kinds of people in this world, and different people succeed different ways. Responding to a bully in kind is certainly a way to handle that situation, but it's not the only one. And even if it were, I've got news for you. This is a video game. This is not any representation of real life, and if it were, it wouldn't be this kind of spartan-style social darwinism that apparently existed in your junior high or whatever.

If you want me to elaborate any further on that, it'll have to be in PM form, because this is clearly off-topic.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't click on random links. And there is no point for me to critique anything... you are doing all the work for me. When people ask for help... they generally want to make the BEST of what they have. Not make the WORSE of what they can. Considering you said you can afford r8 and choose not to... not sure you'll find many people who purposely nerf themselves.

Oh they're rare, I'll grant you that. But they exist. Some people understand that you get way more mileage out of an MMO when you don't try to rush to the top and be god.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Anyone can call themselves skilled.... but it only really counts if someone else consider you to be skilled. I have yet seem a skilled player without top shelf and highly refined gear. And as I said before and will continue to say... you can be the most skilled player in the game but as long as you are dealing three digit damage... you might as well suck. Nothing say humiliation like NOT being able to kill an afk sleeping target.

EDIT: Let me ask you this... since we are on the same server... and we have seem each other in game. Would you consider yourself to be more skilled then... say me? Or since you are so "secure" with yourself... which of the other r9 archers would you consider yourself to be more skilled?

I've never played with you, so how could I judge how skilled you are? Not that I'm going to arrange any kind of run with you to test that theory, because (a) I can't be arsed, and (b) I really don't give a **** how skilled you are. I take you at your word that you have skill because you appear to be intelligent in most other respects. If you wanted to lie to me about that, that's your prerogative... it makes no difference to me.

Either way, it's an irrelevant question. Skill is not something that's defined relative to your peers, and certainly not by the standards of gear. I consider myself fairly skilled - by no means the best, but more than able to hold my own in instances by any reasonable standard of my class's role (and no, I do not count "deals comparable damage to r9 and/or 5aps" as a reasonable standard). I use my stuns/freezes, my debuffs, my aoes, at the appropriate times and without taking aggro in any circumstance, except when it's advantageous (e.g. to save the cleric). And in case you're wondering, yes - I can certainly steal from almost any non-aps tank, even with my build. On the rare occasion that I mess something up on a run (e.g. bad/accidental pull or whatever), I own up to my mistake. That's all I would ever ask for from anyone else... to do their job and to admit and learn from any mistakes. I do not judge anyone by whatever arbitrary standards have become the norm from whatever sale PWE's done this week. And if someone else expects that of me, I don't have to run with them.

Now by your logic, I wouldn't be getting any runs at all with my mindset, because nobody would deliberately "nerf themselves" or tolerate other people in squad doing the same. And to that, I'd have to say that my friendlist and faction contacts prove you wrong just by virtue of their existence. I've never had much trouble getting a squad for any run I cared to do, and that includes Nirvana.

But please, go on painting everyone with the same brush you'd judge by. It's honestly pretty entertaining. :P

snufalufaguss wrote:

Full NPC gear squad as is straight from NPC {vs} Illusion Lord: Armageddon

Who would win?

Actually, I'd love to try that sometime and see how close it would come. It'd be a fun experiment. :P

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Skill is not something that's defined relative to your peers, and certainly not by the standards of gear. I consider myself fairly skilled - by no means the best, but more than able to hold my own in instances by any reasonable standard of my class's role (and no, I do not count "deals comparable damage to r9 and/or 5aps" as a reasonable standard).

This nice to consider yourself "fairly skilled"... because I am sure no one else would. And I don't compare my archer against 5aps players... that's reserved for my sin. I compare my archer to other archers that fight with/against me. Unlike you... I measure my ability by comparing to that of my peers.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Now by your logic, I wouldn't be getting any runs at all with my mindset, because nobody would deliberately "nerf themselves" or tolerate other people in squad doing the same. And to that, I'd have to say that my friendlist and faction contacts prove you wrong just by virtue of their existence. I've never had much trouble getting a squad for any run I cared to do, and that includes Nirvana.

I don't believe that I said you'll never get ANY runs. But I will say that my character have MORE earning potential then you. Regardless if its the number of runs or speed of runs. End of day... I'll be pulling in more coins.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But please, go on painting everyone with the same brush you'd judge by. It's honestly pretty entertaining. :P

Whats wrong with holding others to the same standard that I hold myself?

Sint - Harshlands

kiyoshi's answer is once again...

cs moar, go sage.

Sages are better "when you outgear the vast mayority of your opponents". That's an empty statement. If you vastly outgear your opponent, you 1shot your opponent. Ergo, culti doesnt matter. Your choice is not BETTER. It simply doesnt matter wich culti you chose. Or how skilled you are, since kiyoshi so likes to claim he is skilled.

Quilue - Sanctuary

It's just that given the same ****ty gears, a Demon is comparatively better equipped to take a better-geared opponent down than a Sage.

When you hit like 700 on someone, 6% more base damage is not going to help, longer stun is not going to help, STA might help though. You will most likely just tick charm endlessly until you get your *** kicked.

More crit might help, a chance for faster attack speed might help, and I've experienced that many times when I killed much better-geared opponents when I had the TT90+5.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This nice to consider yourself "fairly skilled"... because I am sure no one else would. And I don't compare my archer against 5aps players... that's reserved for my sin. I compare my archer to other archers that fight with/against me. Unlike you... I measure my ability by comparing to that of my peers.

I don't believe that I said you'll never get ANY runs. But I will say that my character have MORE earning potential then you. Regardless if its the number of runs or speed of runs. End of day... I'll be pulling in more coins.

Right, because I totally need more coins to support the OP gear habit I don't have. Glad we're on the same page, then. >_>

I get what runs I need, help a couple guildies out to the extent that I can, and beyond that I don't care. Doing cube on 2-3 characters per day and some light merchanting on a catshop character easily covers every expense I require, including the occasional frivolous one (fashion/dye, vanity pet, etc.). So please, do tell me what I'd use all your unnecessary coins for... dying all my fashions emo-black? XD

And as far as skill goes... I just said in my last post that I have quite a few people who believe it. So if you're just implying that I have dozens of imaginary friends, I don't think we have anything left to discuss.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

kiyoshi's answer is once again...

cs moar, go sage.

Sages are better "when you outgear the vast mayority of your opponents". That's an empty statement. If you vastly outgear your opponent, you 1shot your opponent. Ergo, culti doesnt matter. Your choice is not BETTER. It simply doesnt matter wich culti you chose. Or how skilled you are, since kiyoshi so likes to claim he is skilled.

I don't recall every telling anyone to charge zen... but I do recall telling people to get their gears. Since I no longer play competitively anymore... let me shine some light on how the real skilled people accumulate their wealth.

Date Source / Destination Status / Details Amount ZEN Balance (ZEN)
2009-02-24 Perfect World Transfer Heavens Tear -5300 0
2009-02-24 Paypal completed $50.00 +5300 5300
2008-12-11 Perfect World Transfer Heavens Tear (pve)-5300 0
2008-12-11 Paypal completed $50.00 +5300 5300
2008-09-11 Perfect World Heavens Tear (pve) -2000 0
2008-09-11 Paypal completed $20.00 +2000 2000

That's my entire PWI wallet history... total of $120 USD charged... with a bonus of 600 zen given. Actually... I can only take credit for $110 of those charges. The first $20 was split between Kevlor (or whatever his name is). We were both in Rad... and at that time we both wanted a freaking panther... and $20 was the smallest amount we can charge.

At my peak competitiveness... there are very few people (cser or not) who has the same caliber of gear as me. And I don't recall getting any new gear/refines since my retirement date (in sig) which is a good half a year ago... yet I still out gear a good portion of the population. Finally... even with my current gear level... I have no problem dropping another r9 or two for my alts.

Skilled people isn't going have to worry about money... cause they are wanted in everything and cash more or less falls in to their lap. It's only those wannabe skilled people who are crying that everyone and their dog has OP gear.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And as far as skill goes... I just said in my last post that I have quite a few people who believe it. So if you're just implying that I have dozens of imaginary friends, I don't think we have anything left to discuss.

Was that before or after what happened in room 11 a few days ago?

Vindis - Dreamweaver

@Miugre: I think you can possibly be skilled based upon several viewpoints you hold, but your gear really does limit your usefulness. A better geared archer who is terribly unskilled would DD more with normal hits. I understand your viewpoint of not wanting to be in the exact same gear as everyone else. It is an ideal way to be unique, but with r8 recast coming out I think there will be a bit more variety towards endgame gears. And yes, TT99 would help you out abit. Surprisingly, your defenses are not that bad for TT90 gold (I wouldn't know about pre 99 gold TT gear. Molds-->TT90green-->r8/TT99gold is how I had my toon mapped out from 70+.) Your sharding is interesting, but I understand the desire to shard mana especially if you do not use mp charms (I had a mp hat until I got my warsoul so I do miss my extra mp pool saving my charm ticks).

@Kiyoshi: Is it your opinion that only those with r9 are skilled? Just curious. If yes, Would you consider all r8s or lesser of all classes unskilled by default?

@Quilue: Total agreement. If I had no plans for end game gear I myself would probably have went demon just for the spark alone though I had sage pre-determined to synergize with my wizard brother long before I even created this archer. Demon is definitely more bang for you buck.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Kiyoshi: Is it your opinion that only those with r9 are skilled? Just curious. If yes, Would you consider all r8s or lesser of all classes unskilled by default?

Yes... for archers... any active archer without the offensive damage to kill and/or the defense to live cannot be considered skilled. If that means r9... then let it be r9. To even be consider for judgement/measurement... the said person more or less HAVE to stay alive long enough to actually do something. If I can faceroll and one shot him... would you consider that person to be skilled? Or on the reverse... if i can afk for a drink during a battle... come back still alive... can the person attacking me this whole time be considered skilled? Or better yet... if a self proclaimed skilled player (who is fully buffed) logs at the very sight of a self rated average player (who only have level 4 barb hp buff)... is that still skill?

Its one thing to pick your battles.... understandable for miugre not wanting to fight me due to his gear disadvantage. But its another for him to come on here proclaiming himself to be "skilled" by living in a bubble... when in reality anyone outside of the said bubble can steam roll him.

Lets face it... it doesn't take a lot of brain power to play an archer in PvE. To say one is skilled at PvE archer is like saying one is skilled at breathing. Its not skills when everyone can do it.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes... for archers... any active archer without the offensive damage to kill and/or the defense to live cannot be considered skilled. If that means r9... then let it be r9. To even be consider for judgement/measurement... the said person more or less HAVE to stay alive long enough to actually do something. If I can faceroll and one shot him... would you consider that person to be skilled? Or on the reverse... if i can afk for a drink during a battle... come back still alive... can the person attacking me this whole time be considered skilled? Or better yet... if a self proclaimed skilled player (who is fully buffed) logs at the very sight of a self rated average player (who only have level 4 barb hp buff)... is that still skill?

Its one thing to pick your battles.... understandable for Miugre not wanting to fight me due to his gear disadvantage. But its another for him to come on here proclaiming himself to be "skilled" by living in a bubble... when in reality anyone outside of the said bubble can steam roll him.

Yeah there are obvious gear advantages between the 2 of you. I personally rank skill amongst equally geared players. r9 is far superior to all other gear, but I feel a skilled player can be quite capable of defeating a better geared opponent like how a r8 can defeat a Nirvy player. I imagine r8 recast will make things more interesting, though r9 will still be far and away superior.

And no, I think if you can afk charmed tank someone then that person cannot be considered skilled. Perhaps they can in their gear/level range, but to that extent it mostly cements the fact that you are too heavily outgearing them for them to pose any (significant) threat at all. I suppose you would have to toy with them to even see a glimpse of skill in a one shot, but on an archer skill is pretty hard to detect I suppose (class is kind of basic after all).

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And no, I think if you can afk charmed tank someone then that person cannot be considered skilled. Perhaps they can in their gear/level range, but to that extent it mostly cements the fact that you are too heavily outgearing them for them to pose any (significant) threat at all.

So... that person can be skilled... compare to who? We're all playing the same game and in the same level range. What do you want me to say... that he is considered skilled in the botton ten percentile? Yea... good for him that hes more skilled then a whole 9 archers. Maybe no one will figure out that there is 90 more archers out there better then him? Last I check... there are events that break down by level... don't believe there is event that have gear classes. Hes not a big fish in a small pond... we're all swimming in the same freaking ocean.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I imagine r8 recast will make things more interesting, though r9 will still be far and away superior.

Now I do wonder... with the introduction of r8 recast. Should I recast my +12 r8 bow... or wait for the introduction of r9 recast and recast my +12 r9 bow. The choices....
/sarcasm

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So... that person can be skilled... compare to who? We're all playing the same game and in the same level range. What do you want me to say... that he is considered skilled in the botton ten percentile? Yea... good for him that hes more skilled then a whole 9 archers. Maybe no one will figure out that there is 90 more archers out there better then him? Last I check... there are events that break down by level... don't believe there is event that have gear classes. Hes not a big fish in a small pond... we're all swimming in the same freaking ocean.



Now I do wonder... with the introduction of r8 recast. Should I recast my +12 r8 bow... or wait for the introduction of r9 recast and recast my +12 r9 bow. The choices....
/sarcasm

We know you have r9 lol. It was meant that others that do not have r9 can get r8 recast which is better than r8. I shouldn't need to explain that so I won't bother.

As for the TT90 gold thing. Compared to level 90s his gear is quite nice. I suppose I compare more off of gear level and not so much off of actual level. I meant if say tt90 gold was fighting tt90 gold geared players then they could be skilled or whatever. Its similar to how you can be skilled vs other r9 archers or whatever. Again, not alot to explain there.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Was that before or after what happened in room 11 a few days ago?

You'll have to refresh my memory on what exactly happened "a few days ago." Either way, it must've been pretty godly if it magically made all my friends disappear when it happened.

Oh wait, they're still here? ...huh. >_>

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Miugre: I think you can possibly be skilled based upon several viewpoints you hold, but your gear really does limit your usefulness. A better geared archer who is terribly unskilled would DD more with normal hits. I understand your viewpoint of not wanting to be in the exact same gear as everyone else. It is an ideal way to be unique, but with r8 recast coming out I think there will be a bit more variety towards endgame gears. And yes, TT99 would help you out abit. Surprisingly, your defenses are not that bad for TT90 gold (I wouldn't know about pre 99 gold TT gear. Molds-->TT90green-->r8/TT99gold is how I had my toon mapped out from 70+.) Your sharding is interesting, but I understand the desire to shard mana especially if you do not use mp charms (I had a mp hat until I got my warsoul so I do miss my extra mp pool saving my charm ticks).

It's accepted by most as fact that a comparatively OP gear set will negate most, if not all, advantage given by skill. It's like if a Lv90 archer dueled a Lv70 archer... the 70 may be more skilled, but the 90's raw DPS advantage more than makes up for it even in the presence of all other factors.

If Kiyoshi and I were to duel with just NPC gears, that'd be more interesting :P He'd probably still win, at least the first couple of times, just because I'm not very practiced at PVP (and I have never suggested otherwise). But it'd still be an interesting match.

Since you brought it up, I took the liberty of modifying my build to TT99 just to see how much my defenses would really be brought up. Check my current build versus this TT99 build with the same shards. Assume the tt99 build has 1% more crit than it actually does, because I had to swap out the tome to a +10 Str one to equip my helmet in that build... in my current build, the 90 gold bracers are helping me with that.

My pdef in the 90 build is 45% and my mdef is 49%... in the 99 build, pdef increases to 48% but mdef stays the same. XD The difference is even smaller with cleric buffs (55/60 versus 57/60) and adding sage BM buff narrows it to 65% vs. 66%. I gain about 800 HP and a negligible bow aps increase from the 99 build, but other than that everything pretty much stays the same. Very interesting. o.o

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes... for archers... any active archer without the offensive damage to kill and/or the defense to live cannot be considered skilled. If that means r9... then let it be r9. To even be consider for judgement/measurement... the said person more or less HAVE to stay alive long enough to actually do something. If I can faceroll and one shot him... would you consider that person to be skilled? Or on the reverse... if i can afk for a drink during a battle... come back still alive... can the person attacking me this whole time be considered skilled? Or better yet... if a self proclaimed skilled player (who is fully buffed) logs at the very sight of a self rated average player (who only have level 4 barb hp buff)... is that still skill?

Its one thing to pick your battles.... understandable for miugre not wanting to fight me due to his gear disadvantage. But its another for him to come on here proclaiming himself to be "skilled" by living in a bubble... when in reality anyone outside of the said bubble can steam roll him.

Lets face it... it doesn't take a lot of brain power to play an archer in PvE. To say one is skilled at PvE archer is like saying one is skilled at breathing. Its not skills when everyone can do it.

Are you saying I logged when I saw you at some point? I'm sure that's happened once before. And yeah, that is picking my battles. I have no interest in fighting you anyway (except maybe in the NPC gear scenario I described earlier), so why on earth would I stay there to be steamrolled? It's not like I don't have two other characters to cube with while I wait. I still don't really give a **** if you kill me with your sin or whatever, but that's not going to stop me from exercising a little self-preservation if given the opportunity.

And I think you and I have both met plenty of completely idiotic PVE archers, so that "breathing" comment isn't gonna fly.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

We know you have r9 lol. It was meant that others that do not have r9 can get r8 recast which is better than r8. I shouldn't need to explain that so I won't bother.

You are making a lot assumptions that people who can't afford r9 can afford r8 recast. Last time I checked... the recast system isn't out yet... and hence we don't even know the actual cost. As far as rumor goes... it require some sort of base quest that can only be activated three times a week. For all you know the cost to recast r8 is the same as buying an r9... just like how no one get recast nirvana bows anymore... cause it cost the same as an r9. And secondly... sure if someone recast an r8... they'll be better then an un-recasted r8. But what if I recast my r9... the gap is still going to be there... so essentially nothing will change.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As for the TT90 gold thing. Compared to level 90s his gear is quite nice. I suppose I compare more off of gear level and not so much off of actual level. I meant if say tt90 gold was fighting tt90 gold geared players then they could be skilled or whatever. Its similar to how you can be skilled vs other r9 archers or whatever. Again, not alot to explain there.

I can't even be sure that his gear is better then my gears two years ago. My TT90 set has a minimum refine of +5... not sure if his is even that high. But yes... his gear could be considered decent for a level 90 TWO years ago... maybe even top grade if it has decent refines. Sadly... last time I checked... he is level 100... NOT 90. And we're in year 2011... NOT 2009. And really? You are going to talk about him fighting level 90 archers as an level 100 archer?

You yourself is an level 100+ archer. If you can't beat another level 100+ archer (r9)... are you going to go beat up an level 90 archer and call yourself skilled? I consider myself average due to the overall archer population... or should I say that I am a god compare to all those level 90 archers?

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If Kiyoshi and I were to duel with just NPC gears, that'd be more interesting :P He'd probably still win, at least the first couple of times, just because I'm not very practiced at PVP (and I have never suggested otherwise). But it'd still be an interesting match.

How is that going to be interesting? I have a passive hp of 2.6k. an npc xbow should have an upper end damage of 8k. thats 4k pvp dmg on a crit... and ~3k taken damage. Any dex archer will drop on a crit... and no one will live through a stun (assuming no genie). Is that skills?

At least in r9 pk... archers have 10k+ hp and deal ~2k damage to each other. The battle can last longer then the time it takes to fire off 2 arrows. Where timing and maybe teamwork actually matters.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I gain about 800 HP

For someone who has 5k hp... a gain of 800 hp it self is a lot.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And I think you and I have both met plenty of completely idiotic PVE archers, so that "breathing" comment isn't gonna fly.

I actually have not meet any archer that CAN NOT do what they are suppose to do. Its really not rocket science to throw **** at other ****.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I can't even be sure that his gear is better then my gears two years ago. My TT90 set has a minimum refine of +5... not sure if his is even that high. But yes... his gear could be considered decent for a level 90 TWO years ago... maybe even top grade if it has decent refines. Sadly... last time I checked... he is level 100... NOT 90. And we're in year 2011... NOT 2009. And really? You are going to talk about him fighting level 90 archers as an level 100 archer?

You yourself is an level 100+ archer. If you can't beat another level 100+ archer (r9)... are you going to go beat up an level 90 archer and call yourself skilled? I consider myself average due to the overall archer population... or should I say that I am a god compare to all those level 90 archers?

You could just click the damn links, you know. You can see just by hovering over them that it's just pwcalc. >_> My armors are +3 and I have a base vit of 50, which equates to about 5100 HP (oh, and just to really blow your mind... I have 15 magic, largely because I'm too lazy to restat it and barely care to begin with).

A completed set of r9 gear on a reasonably skilled player would still kill me quickly, but that's because it would all be +12d and most likely packing JoSDs just to further ensure that its owner could never be killed by an average weapon. So don't talk as if the level of the gear matters... at least not nearly as much as you think it does. Even with Nirv armor (which has the same resists as r9, btw) I'd only get about 6% damage reduction and about 100 HP versus my current build with the same refines and shards.

Any way you slice it, a "good" PK build in this day and age is completely dependent on CS items (whether its owner personally CSs or not). That's why PK is about 99% dead to me.

EDIT: Oh, NOW you replied to me. XD Guess I'll wait for your next one then.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Full Nirv also offer +5 atk lvls and +10 def lvls, as well as -0.05 int. Or +10 atk lvls if you choose to equip both sets. Also, I suppose gear doesn't matter if you don't refine, since grade of armor only matters if you...refine.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

A completed set of r9 gear on a reasonably skilled player would still kill me quickly, but that's because it would all be +12d and most likely packing JoSDs just to further ensure that its owner could never be killed by an average weapon.

So holding down the normal attack key is now considered to be "reasonably skilled"? You really have a low thrush-hold for what is consider to be skills.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Full Nirv also offer +5 atk lvls and +10 def lvls, as well as -0.05 int. Or +10 atk lvls if you choose to equip both sets. Also, I suppose gear doesn't matter if you don't refine, since grade of armor only matters if you...refine.

Exactly my point, aside from the extra atk/def lvl thing, which I'll grant you. But r9 armor also cannot exist without someone having CS'd the ingredients, and often someone else buying said ingredients from the person who CS'd.

And y'know what, that's fine. If you want to spend ungodly amounts of coin on your e-peen suit, that's your prerogative. But don't pretend it represents your skill. Kiyoshi's argument basically boils down to "skilled players are wanted in squads, therefore they get more coin, therefore r9 becomes accessible to them... ergo, no skilled player would be without r9." The point that Kiyoshi consistently misses like a champ is that just because it's accessible doesn't mean everyone would want it.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How is that going to be interesting? I have a passive hp of 2.6k. an npc xbow should have an upper end damage of 8k. thats 4k pvp dmg on a crit... and ~3k taken damage. Any dex archer will drop on a crit... and no one will live through a stun (assuming no genie). Is that skills?

At least in r9 pk... archers have 10k+ hp and deal ~2k damage to each other. The battle can last longer then the time it takes to fire off 2 arrows. Where timing and maybe teamwork actually matters.

I was talking about duels. Are you talking about TW, or maybe multi-man open PK? Either way, I'd still say an NPC-gear fight is more interesting than a r9 fight. It focuses more on the class skills and also on the individuals' builds (for instance, your 3k attack wouldn't oneshot me). But multi-man PK is a science all on its own, even if it's compromised by gear gaps. That's probably the only reason TW is still interesting, after all. But it's quite different from, say, ganking someone in cube with a sin. I challenge you to tell me where the intrigue is in that match-up.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

For someone who has 5k hp... a gain of 800 hp it self is a lot.

Not disagreeing with that, but also remember that 99 gold has vit bonuses out the *** when compared to other endgame sets. Again: 90 gold = 5.1k HP, 99 gold = 5.9k HP, but 1st stage nirv = 5.2k HP. That's part of the reason I'm getting it for my sin and my barb.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I actually have not meet any archer that CAN NOT do what they are suppose to do. Its really not rocket science to throw **** at other ****.

I am so not going to debate this point with you. If you really think all an archer does in PVE is "throw **** at other ****," then I really will start to question which one of us has the skill here.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote:

So holding down the normal attack key is now considered to be "reasonably skilled"? You really have a low thrush-hold for what is consider to be skills.

Not sure how you pulled that conclusion from my post, but it sounds more like how a r9 would win than a lesser-geared person would.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I was talking about duels. Are you talking about TW, or maybe multi-man open PK? Either way, I'd still say an NPC-gear fight is more interesting than a r9 fight. It focuses more on the class skills and also on the individuals' builds (for instance, your 3k attack wouldn't oneshot me). But multi-man PK is a science all on its own, even if it's compromised by gear gaps. That's probably the only reason TW is still interesting, after all. But it's quite different from, say, ganking someone in cube with a sin. I challenge you to tell me where the intrigue is in that match-up.

Lets just say its 1v1 with npc gear. How much hp can you have with npc gear... i doubt its over 4k. You think you can live through a 3.5s stun with 4k hp when you are getting hit for 1k+ non crit? In duels... you would be deal in potentially 2 hits... and pk 3 hits if charmed. Yea... really require a lot skills to see who can fire off the first stun.

And finally... maybe you should stop making assumptions about refined r9 pk... considering you never experienced it before. I... on the other hand... have experienced both r9 and npc armor pk (event hosted by mystic a while back). My average npc gear fight time with any class is under 5 seconds. Any robe class drops with 1 hit (doesn't even have to crit). Light armor drops with a crit... or take aim... or stun w/follow up. non barb heavies can be dropped with a single metal crit. This type of **** doesn't happen with refined armor. I have fights with other r9 archers that last well pass the 30 seconds mark... and r9 bm that seems to last forever with 6 digit charm burn.

Notice for the amount of fan fare leading up to the npc pk event... there is no follow up? Cause every one is more or less one shot to every one else.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not sure how you pulled that conclusion from my post, but it sounds more like how a r9 would win than a lesser-geared person would.

You said "A completed set of r9 gear on a reasonably skilled player would still kill me quickly". With your 5k hp... any r9 archer (no need to be reasonably skilled) needs to do it hold down a single attack key and wait for the auto select you when you pull off the first hit.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I can't even be sure that his gear is better then my gears two years ago. My TT90 set has a minimum refine of +5... not sure if his is even that high. But yes... his gear could be considered decent for a level 90 TWO years ago... maybe even top grade if it has decent refines. Sadly... last time I checked... he is level 100... NOT 90. And we're in year 2011... NOT 2009. And really? You are going to talk about him fighting level 90 archers as an level 100 archer?

You yourself is an level 100+ archer. If you can't beat another level 100+ archer (r9)... are you going to go beat up an level 90 archer and call yourself skilled? I consider myself average due to the overall archer population... or should I say that I am a god compare to all those level 90 archers?

r8 recast should cost less than r9 in theory solely on the basis it is to be an alternative to Nirvana and r9. If it happens to cost less than r9 then yes, r9 would be far more viable. /r8 recast opinions.

And I just mentioned that I believe skill is generally only comparable with equal or semi equal gears. A lesser geared opponent defeating someone that heavily outgears them could probably also be called skill since it would require tactics. Then again, archer is probably one of the lowest skill requirement classes for pvp. Tab+f1 is really not that difficult. Stun, Aim Low. Metal on HAs etc etc.

And as for myself, I am probably average geared compared to most archers on the server. I have killed r9s in TW, but in a sole one on one without the element of surprise, I probably can't defeat one without the use of at least 4 sparks (Triple Spark+Aim Low since I'm rather certain I can't break through the charm of a full buffed 12k+ hp archer without high crits or extra damage; perhaps when my bow is +10). Picking ones fights is a sign of intelligence ^^.

I find skill vs the same class more difficult to measure compared to skill vs other classes. Like I've been sitting around and watched r8 +10 wep/+6 armor archers have trouble with various sins and then I am able to defeat them handily with lesser gears (Think I was +3 at the time of the example I was thinking of though it may have been when I only had 99 gears). Then again, perhaps I am just advocating experience as a large factor in pvp as it tends to enhance ones skill.

@Miugre: Try upgrading your ornaments in that tt99 build. Mystical Armor Seal is really not that good and Demon Slaughter Belt is actually more useful (unless of course you chose the seal for its +5% mp). If you had the TT99 Lionheart Belt it would provide additional strength, but to be honest, I find difficulty getting your attack high enough to be adequate. Comparing your current build to my own I have trouble offering advice. To be honest I am unsure what ways I could offer advice on improvement other than to change nearly everything and keep improving. Then again, you are content and if you do not desire improvement it is not my place to offer it. I can tell you that my physical attack at 99 was higher than yours is now with a lower level weapon (Broadland+5 w/2 perf garnets), but your defenses are indeed superior and if you were level 90 your gear would probably be top notch as Kiyoshi commented, but you are not 90.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

r8 recast should cost less than r9 in theory solely on the basis it is to be an alternative to Nirvana and r9.

A lot of theories going around here... to bad they are just what they are... theories... and nothing more. How about we have a change of pace here... and take about what is actually possible NOW?

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have killed r9s in TW, but in a sole one on one without the element of surprise, I probably can't defeat one without the use of at least 4 sparks (Triple Spark+Aim Low since I'm rather certain I can't break through the charm of a full buffed 12k+ hp archer without high crits or extra damage; perhaps when my bow is +10).

Anyone can kill an r9... even +5 tt99 venos... you just need enough of them... so its nothing to be proud of. Fully buffed r9 set only having 12k hp... I seem unbuffed robes with more hp. Even with my +12 r9 bow... I can't guarantee that i will score a kill off a fully buffed decked out r9 light armor set even triple sparked. And here you are... theorizing that you can do it with a +10 r8 bow?

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I find skill vs the same class more difficult to measure compared to skill vs other classes. Like I've been sitting around and watched r8 +10 wep/+6 armor archers have trouble with various sins and then I am able to defeat them handily with lesser gears (Think I was +3 at the time of the example I was thinking of though it may have been when I only had 99 gears). Then again, perhaps I am just advocating experience as a large factor in pvp as it tends to enhance ones skill.

Like I said... what do you want to be called? The most skilled player of the bottom 10 percentile? Oh wait... that miugre... do you want to be known as the most skilled player of the bottom 20 percentile? Seriously... unless you are near the top... it really doesn't matter how skilled you consider yourself to be. There will always be someone bigger and better (skill or gear) that'll come along and smack you around for the fun of it. Then you can be the most skilled archer that gets smacked around whenever that other archer wanted.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Exactly my point, aside from the extra atk/def lvl thing, which I'll grant you. But r9 armor also cannot exist without someone having CS'd the ingredients, and often someone else buying said ingredients from the person who CS'd.

Does it really matter if i or someone else cs'ed my gear? I cs'ed before cause I wanted stuff... and haven't find the need to do it recently (two years). If i am absolutely against gears directly or indirectly related to cs. With the amount of coins I spend... i could easily have a similar set of decked our nirvana gear. But the fact is... with limited storage space in a single character... i am not really good at keeping track of mats... especially if i need a couple hundred to make 1 item. So r9 seems like a much better choice... more so since its better.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Psh with all them chips? I bet you payed someone to open the packs for you. b:chuckle

Eoria - Harshlands

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

my current build

50 vit and 15 mag on an archer? wtf.

Also, MP shards? wtf.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lets just say its 1v1 with npc gear. How much hp can you have with npc gear... i doubt its over 4k. You think you can live through a 3.5s stun with 4k hp when you are getting hit for 1k+ non crit? In duels... you would be deal in potentially 2 hits... and pk 3 hits if charmed. Yea... really require a lot skills to see who can fire off the first stun.

And finally... maybe you should stop making assumptions about refined r9 pk... considering you never experienced it before. I... on the other hand... have experienced both r9 and npc armor pk (event hosted by mystic a while back). My average npc gear fight time with any class is under 5 seconds. Any robe class drops with 1 hit (doesn't even have to crit). Light armor drops with a crit... or take aim... or stun w/follow up. non barb heavies can be dropped with a single metal crit. This type of **** doesn't happen with refined armor. I have fights with other r9 archers that last well pass the 30 seconds mark... and r9 bm that seems to last forever with 6 digit charm burn.

Notice for the amount of fan fare leading up to the npc pk event... there is no follow up? Cause every one is more or less one shot to every one else.

You said "A completed set of r9 gear on a reasonably skilled player would still kill me quickly". With your 5k hp... any r9 archer (no need to be reasonably skilled) needs to do it hold down a single attack key and wait for the auto select you when you pull off the first hit.

So I can be killed by an unskilled r9 archer, then. That just proves my point more, really. I don't care what justification you give yourself, if you win by facerolling, that's not skill.

As for NPC gear events... you're referring to the open-PK event we had on our server a few months back? That one was broken up by unsportsmanlike people, if I remember what I heard correctly. But your point is, unrefined armors make for quick fights even against NPC weapons (if you even assume that either archer crits, which is a fair assumption with NPC gear). Okay. So let's suppose all those NPC armors were +10'd or whatever. That'd last a lot longer, wouldn't it?

It's not that I'm trying to arbitrarily change the standard. My original comment was not so much specifically about NPC gear (that was just the example), but more about a level playing field. Let's make it +5d TT99 gold armors, even. Lots of HP there.

My point is, you can go on and on about PVP skill all you want, but it still rings hollow if your idea of a fight is ganking someone in cube or using them as a "5 chi pot." If you really have skill in PVP, you would have no problem engaging in any evenly-geared matchup rather than just hiding behind your r9 gears and saying "trust me guys, I got these 'cuz I have skill."

And none of this has any effect on PVE. The only similarity between PVP and PVE is that, in both, gear does not equal skill. Gear can be a reflection of skill, as you described earlier, but it is just as often a reflection of other methods (merchanting, CS use, stealing others' stuff, etc). And having gear does not give you skill, either, unless you count facerolling as a skill.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Psh with all them chips? I bet you payed someone to open the packs for you. b:chuckle

It's not really a bad idea. I had friends make rep from tokens for my r8 and then more friends to open chip packs for me when r9 came out.

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

50 vit and 15 mag on an archer? wtf.

Also, MP shards? wtf.

Didn't you know... whats what "skilled" archers do nowadays. Either get with the program... or GTFO.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So I can be killed by an unskilled r9 archer, then. That just proves my point more, really. I don't care what justification you give yourself, if you win by facerolling, that's not skill.

At the end of day... who is going to say its not skills. I once had a sin kill himself on me while I was peeing. Came back to see a bunch of **** about me cheating with bramble. Its a stupid move on my part... but hey... nature calls. Who are you to say that's not skills... I am still left standing while some idiot is dead.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

At the end of day... who is going to say its not skills. I once had a sin kill himself on me while I was peeing. Came back to see a bunch of **** about me cheating with bramble. Its a stupid move on my part... but hey... nature calls. Who are you to say that's not skills... I am still left standing while some idiot is dead.

So at the end of the day, you consider facerolling (and the blatant stupidity of others, even) to be your own skill.

I'm not even going to satirize this. It speaks for itself.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So at the end of the day, you consider facerolling (and the blatant stupidity of others, even) to be your own skill.

I'm not even going to satirize this. It speaks for itself.

What else do you expect? Its one thing if I am up against people of my own caliber... but its another if i am crushing a couple of ants. Kind of hard to show any skills crushing an ant... and I don't think anyone really expects me to have a serious expression when crushing something so insignificant. Yea... I may need to have both eyes open and be alert when there is another r9 on my ***. But do you really expect me to pay the same amount of attention when a tt90 archer is coming after me? No. I'll be pouring myself a drink and clicking random buttons with my toes.

You and anyone else of your level... certainly can not expected to be treated with the same as someone who actually pose a threat to me. Just like the president declare doesn't martial law every time some street level thug robs a McDonald.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What else do you expect? Its one thing if I am up against people of my own caliber... but its another if i am crushing a couple of ants. Kind of hard to show any skills crushing an ant... and I don't think anyone really expects me to have a serious expression when crushing something so insignificant. Yea... I may need to have both eyes open and be alert when there is another r9 on my ***. But do you really expect me to pay the same amount of attention when a tt90 archer is coming after me? No. I'll be pouring myself a drink and clicking random buttons with my toes.

You and anyone else of your level... certainly can not expected to be treated with the same as someone who actually pose a threat to me. Just like the president declare doesn't martial law every time some street level thug robs a McDonald.

What I expect is for you to call a spade a spade. If there's no skill in "crushing ants," then don't call yourself skilled for doing it. Some people really don't care if you want to call yourself God's Gift to Archerdom, and you facerolling them does not accomplish anything except deluding yourself into thinking they do care.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What I expect is for you to call a spade a spade. If there's no skill in "crushing ants," then don't call yourself skilled for doing it. Some people really don't care if you want to call yourself God's Gift to Archerdom, and you facerolling them does not accomplish anything except deluding yourself into thinking they do care.

I don't call my big toe skilled for killing ants and ant level things in PWI. I said that I have AVERAGE gear... and even having certain skills to kill other RANK NINE users SOLO. That being said... I'll also freely admit that sometimes instead of me killing them... I also gets killed. It's just how life works... win some lose some. No one should should care what gear that I or any other individual have. After all... belong to someone else. But the second smallest fish shouldn't be self-proclaiming anything when he's only bigger then ONE OTHER FISH.

CRYSTY_III - Sanctuary

sounds like Luke Skywalker is unsure if he wants join to the Dark Side when he is talking to Vader b:chuckle
Follow your heart young jedi warrior b:victory

If you want more critical hit rate go for demon if you want more chi and defense + longer range then go for sage .
Sage will have 14 meters range , and if you get a Xbow with extra 2 meters addon from the weapon, you will have 16 meters ! Same skill for Demon version will grants you 10% accuracy and +1% crit permanent chance - according to ecatomb website ( i dont trust in chances from pwe lol).It is up to you in what you believe/trust lol, in a safety distance or in your luck ? Are you affraid to get closer to mobs or are you a kamikaze style ?
Btw did you saw all the shops near the teleporter in south Archo selling Chi potions ? very expensive b:laugh those are for TW. More chi as a sage might help you to cast powerful skills anytime without Chi powders or potions or even asking always for veno to transfer a spark .
Also read the genie skills , there is a skill which instantly gives you 50 chi if im not wrong , from genie(not sure if its for archer class also i cant remember the name of the genie skill, might be an advanced skill).
If im correct , most ppl chose demon on many classes thats why the demon skills are more expensive than sage .Buying sage skills might be more cheap
My archer will go sage someday bcoz of the skills/relaxing gameplay in pve ,is my choice, my game , i do listen advices as you do too but i dont care if others will be unhappy with my choice lol.
Here you can read the skills and compare between demon and angel , i mean sage lol

http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php

Select Archer then look at the bottom of the page and click on the Demon or Sage menu button to read descriptions.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't call my big toe skilled for killing ants and ant level things in PWI.

Dear Kiyoshi from 12:53,

Allow me to introduce you to Kiyoshi from 9:38:

Kiyoshi from 9:38 wrote:

I once had a sin kill himself on me while I was peeing.
[...]
Who are you to say that's not skills...

So you're implying... what, here? That it takes more skill to take a leak than to use your big toe? 'Cuz either way, those are some pro moves right there.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I said that I have AVERAGE gear... and even having certain skills to kill other RANK NINE users SOLO. That being said... I'll also freely admit that sometimes instead of me killing them... I also gets killed. It's just how life works... win some lose some. No one should should care what gear that I or any other individual have. After all... belong to someone else. But the second smallest fish shouldn't be self-proclaiming anything when he's only bigger then ONE OTHER FISH.

If no one should care about what gear you have, why're you still hiding behind it? I love how your magical new rule conveniently stops right above my gear line, btw. Oh, and the all-caps is doing wonders for your argument. Keep at it, bro. ;]