Sage archer

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  • Reducto - Harshlands
    Reducto - Harshlands Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I think that you should have noted that these DPS numbers are burst dps, and not sustained dps. And Demon has other ways of getting good burst dps numbers (though this particular one has perhaps the least setup penalty, and is most comparable to sage).

    But sustained DPS requires additional work (because you must consider the entire triple spark cycle, including chi gain and the 3 seconds when you do not do anything). And you can manage that cycle in so many different ways.
    yes you are correct, but why do all that since we can easily see that demon already out damages in dps then the sage.. (and if we put crit buffs (from time to time even +10%) then it will be even higher)
    (well as Quilue already replied)
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Since it seems like the majority of player on PWI are idiots. I'll try to give you guys an flow charting regarding selecting cults that even a compete idiot can follow.

    1. Are you an idiot?
    ~ Yes - Go Demon
    ~ No - Move to 2

    2. Did you make a thread on the forum asking for help to pick your OWN cults.
    ~ Yes - Go demon
    ~ No - Move to 3

    3. Will you be the third sage archer on the ENTIRE server? And have an weapon ranked in the top percentile of archers?
    ~ Yes - Go sage
    ~ No - Go demon
    ~ What? - Move to 4

    4. Are you willing to drop 5k gold on your gear only to have it worth 50 gold the next day?
    ~ Yes - You are an idiot. Flip a ****ing coin to determine your cult.
    ~ No - You are useless. Doesn't matter what cult you pick... you will still be useless.

    By the end of question 4... you should hopefully have selected your cult.
    And this sir, lol but it is so true..
  • Eden - Raging Tide
    Eden - Raging Tide Posts: 301 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    all religious discussion aside primarily from pixel demon cult...... demon has much better dmg and dps if only using bow and as pure dex as one can get due to difficulty maxing bow aps.. at that dmg and crit lvl more crit being more beneficial

    otherwise if u use fists at all archers get base 5 aps so fast there no point anymore of using demon if ur base aps is 5 and ur spark obv is 5 max.. going demon for farm incredibly stupid.. make sense to go sage for this for more dmg and survivability... sage get more spark dmg... sage get more dmg from ba ignoring nonsense about demon ba bonus which cant be spammed and waste time on dmg to keep casting...

    skillwise demon get more out of boa so sage isnt class for considering "skills" obv both are

    the sad part is since game is pay2win so many cash point click fails want to give opinions but not based on game knowledge but make self feel better about own choice
  • snufalufaguss
    snufalufaguss Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    laloner wrote: »
    I never said it was hard. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by pointing out shortcomings in your original answer. But really, get over it.

    Don't make yourself seem more important that you really are. You don't matter enough to anyone to have any effect on their feelings.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Eden - Raging Tide wrote: »
    otherwise if u use fists at all archers get base 5 aps so fast there no point anymore of using demon if ur base aps is 5 and ur spark obv is 5 max.. going demon for farm incredibly stupid.. make sense to go sage for this for more dmg and survivability... sage get more spark dmg... sage get more dmg from ba ignoring nonsense about demon ba bonus which cant be spammed and waste time on dmg to keep casting...

    Can you make yourself look even MORE stupid? Good thing you are posting on an alt... instead of your main.

    Sage's base damage is only 3% above that of an demon due to mastery. If we are talking about farming... we can't just look at a single hit damage. If memory still serves demon gains 1% crit from both mastery and blessing. Over the period of 100 hits... the extra 2% crit would statically bring the difference down to 1% with advantage still going toward sage.

    Now lets take spark into consideration. Demon spark's - interval bonus would allow demon to wear 4 piece of r9 armor while sage can only wear three. The 4th piece would give demon an advantage of 10 attack levels. So now we are looking at 1% greater base advantage of sage vs 10 additional attack level of demon.

    Now lets compare fire arrow. Its 10% additional bonus comes out to a miserly ~150 high end un-sparked damage. So the difference now comes out to 1%+150 base damage vs 10 attack levels. Now tell me... how does sage do more damage.

    While its true that sage will have more defense due to sage spark's 25% defense reductions. Although the overall difference will be less due to demon's ability to wear that r9 top, which itself comes with more hp and additional def levels.

    EDIT: The PvP aspect of things. The only way for sage to succeed is to be able to vastly out gear 99% of their opponent... or have a harem of venos as support. Sadly my veno harem isn't anywhere near the number it should be... so I have and still can out gear the VAST MAJORITY of my opponents. Now the question for all those wannabe sage archers out there... can you?
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Reducto - Harshlands wrote: »
    yes you are correct, but why do all that since we can easily see that demon already out damages in dps then the sage.. (and if we put crit buffs (from time to time even +10%) then it will be even higher)

    If you are not going to work out the best full cycle for demon and the best full cycle, you do not know if sage dph balances demon burst damage over the course of the cycle nor do you know how big of a difference you get if they do not.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If you are not going to work out the best full cycle for demon and the best full cycle, you do not know if sage dph balances demon burst damage over the course of the cycle nor do you know how big of a difference you get if they do not.

    Spark>claw>spark>claw

    Not seeing the differance in sage and demon here or do archers actually swap to bow for something other than ranged burst dps these days?
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Since it seems like the majority of player on PWI are idiots. I'll try to give you guys an flow charting regarding selecting cults that even a compete idiot can follow.

    1. Are you an idiot?
    ~ Yes - Go Demon
    ~ No - Move to 2

    2. Did you make a thread on the forum asking for help to pick your OWN cults.
    ~ Yes - Go demon
    ~ No - Move to 3

    3. Will you be the third sage archer on the ENTIRE server? And have an weapon ranked in the top percentile of archers?
    ~ Yes - Go sage
    ~ No - Go demon
    ~ What? - Move to 4

    4. Are you willing to drop 5k gold on your gear only to have it worth 50 gold the next day?
    ~ Yes - You are an idiot. Flip a ****ing coin to determine your cult.
    ~ No - You are useless. Doesn't matter what cult you pick... you will still be useless.

    By the end of question 4... you should hopefully have selected your cult.

    I hate to agree with you but...I agree with you. b:surrender


    Srsly though if you can't afford gear/skills then demon inherently gains the edge with demon spark being much more useful before acquiring the proper armors a sage needs. One must out gear.

    In the end an archer plays like an archer and you still use the same skills endgame albeit for different reasons. Demon stuns for stun and more crit. Sage stuns for long stun. Demon QS for more aps. Sage QS for chi gain.

    I'm sage. I DD hard. I have 38% crit. Would I have made a good demon archer as well? Yes. Would I DPS harder as a demon archer? Yes. In the end its more down to gears/skill level rather than cultivation. I personally enjoy a longer stun amongst other things.
    Ring Engraving/Amulet Carving Guide - pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1174451

    Retired from PWI.

    b:bye
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Wow, this has actually become an interesting discussion (PVP trolls aside).

    @laloner, as you may have guessed by now, succeeding in PVP does not rely so much on culti as on your gear. The harsh truth is that if you want to do serious PVP, you will need to drop a very large amount of time and/or real-life money on it. Whenever I give anyone advice, I assume they are not in that category. -_-

    Therefore, I'll answer the only question you asked that's relevant to PVE:
    I have some questions that I've never seen answered despite the tons of threads on this subject. One is are sage archers better at soloing in PVE? Seems like better defense would make that so, curious about it.
    It really depends on what you mean by "soloing." On standard mobs/killquests/etc., neither culti will have any problems - it just depends on your playstyle (demon being more unpredictable with the crits/microbuffs/etc., sage being more straightforward). If you are referring to soloing instances, tanking with high-aps fists, etc., I cannot help you as I personally consider that a ridiculous thing for any archer to be doing. Conventional wisdom would hold that sage is better for this purpose, but only if you're prepared to drop a lot of money on the required gears.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you are referring to soloing instances, tanking with high-aps fists, etc., I cannot help you as I personally consider that a ridiculous thing for any archer to be doing.

    I don't think you get it. Soloing instances and tanking is not just aps alone. There are sins who can out damage me... but instead would get one shotted by a boss. A decent bow archer would have no problem soloing over half of the bhs. Throw in a bb... every bh can do duo by a bow only archer. Even nirv won't be a problem... it just takes a long while longer.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I don't think you get it. Soloing instances and tanking is not just aps alone. There are sins who can out damage me... but instead would get one shotted by a boss. A decent bow archer would have no problem soloing over half of the bhs. Throw in a bb... every bh can do duo by a bow only archer. Even nirv won't be a problem... it just takes a long while longer.
    Half of which BHs? Let's assume you're referring only to BH51+ since you mentioned BB, and a cleric won't have it until then. In which case,

    BH51: Archer tanking Wyvern under BB = lolcursed. Archer tanking Wyvern under IH/Purify = probably crushed under the weight of his normal attacks without BB active. Could be doable with two clerics, but that's beside the point.

    BH59: Okay yeah, but that's only because anyone can tank BH59 under BB, and archers are still the worst people for the job because those bosses do magic at range, making an arcane tank more sensible. Sins also have the LA problem but they'd probably outdamage you.

    BH69: See BH51 with respect to pole/nob. <_<

    BH79: See BH59. >_>

    BH89: Alright I've never tried to tank that one myself, maybe it's doable, I rather doubt it unless we're using a very conservative definition of "decent."

    BH Aba/SoT: I can hardly imagine. o.O

    I haven't done the other BH100s as of yet but I'm told they're significantly harder than Aba/SoT, so I'm going to count them among the "no"s.

    Yes, okay... technically speaking you can solo/duo any BH, even unwined, as long as you've got a Zeal and offensive amounts of free time (and that assumes all bosses are soloable by a bow archer). But then you'd still take the longest time of any class on actually killing the boss because a good portion of BH bosses are melee (and we're talking about a bow archer, not a fist archer). Show me a bow archer who has that amount of time to devote to his BH, and I'll show you a man who needs to get off his *** and get a job. XD
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    *shivers in antici- pation*

    This thread will soon involve veno harems. I sense it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Half of which BHs? Let's assume you're referring only to BH51+ since you mentioned BB, and a cleric won't have it until then. In which case,

    BH51: Archer tanking Wyvern under BB = lolcursed. Archer tanking Wyvern under IH/Purify = probably crushed under the weight of his normal attacks without BB active. Could be doable with two clerics, but that's beside the point.

    BH59: Okay yeah, but that's only because anyone can tank BH59 under BB, and archers are still the worst people for the job because those bosses do magic at range, making an arcane tank more sensible. Sins also have the LA problem but they'd probably outdamage you.

    BH69: See BH51 with respect to pole/nob. <_<

    BH79: See BH59. >_>

    BH89: Alright I've never tried to tank that one myself, maybe it's doable, I rather doubt it unless we're using a very conservative definition of "decent."

    BH Aba/SoT: I can hardly imagine. o.O

    I haven't done the other BH100s as of yet but I'm told they're significantly harder than Aba/SoT, so I'm going to count them among the "no"s.

    Yes, okay... technically speaking you can solo/duo any BH, even unwined, as long as you've got a Zeal and offensive amounts of free time (and that assumes all bosses are soloable by a bow archer). But then you'd still take the longest time of any class on actually killing the boss because a good portion of BH bosses are melee (and we're talking about a bow archer, not a fist archer). Show me a bow archer who has that amount of time to devote to his BH, and I'll show you a man who needs to get off his *** and get a job. XD

    Who really cares about the BH before 100... I sure don't. Of the five bh 100. Its a joke tanking bh abaddon/sot... each of the final bosses and the fire boss could manage 3-5 ticks on my charm. Water sot and tree boss drops after 2-3 charm ticks. BH metal boss require some timing with wing of grace... still drops after 5 ticks. Any of the bh rb bosses I can easily solo without bb... only need bb for the mobs (considering I can solo dd up to wave 7-8... don't see it as a problem). Only boss that's left is lunar... which I never needed to solo without cleric. And for the record... all bh 100 bosses ARE NOT melee. Well... maybe the warsong fire boss is... but no one really does that anyways.

    I am not sure what kind of pathetic weapon you are carrying around... but each boss maybe takes me a minute more (at the most) then a sin. After my first spark cycle... at least 1/3-1/2 of the boss hp is gone. And since my archer doesn't do bh without his in game veno wife. On a good day... most bosses don't last 3 spark cycles. And yes... my archer (with a veno) can chain 3 triple sparks.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Who really cares about the BH before 100... I sure don't. Of the five bh 100. Its a joke tanking bh abaddon/sot... each of the final bosses and the fire boss could manage 3-5 ticks on my charm. Water sot and tree boss drops after 2-3 charm ticks. BH metal boss require some timing with wing of grace... still drops after 5 ticks. Any of the bh rb bosses I can easily solo without bb... only need bb for the mobs (considering I can solo dd up to wave 7-8... don't see it as a problem). Only boss that's left is lunar... which I never needed to solo without cleric. And for the record... all bh 100 bosses ARE NOT melee. Well... maybe the warsong fire boss is... but no one really does that anyways.

    I am not sure what kind of pathetic weapon you are carrying around... but each boss maybe takes me a minute more (at the most) then a sin. After my first spark cycle... at least 1/3-1/2 of the boss hp is gone. And since my archer doesn't do bh without his in game veno wife. On a good day... most bosses don't last 3 spark cycles. And yes... my archer (with a veno) can chain 3 triple sparks.
    And so it again comes down to our definitions of "decent." Yes, maybe a high-geared bow archer could solo/tank instances, but a high-geared BM or Sin could do it far faster, so any way you slice it, archers are pretty much the worst tanks.

    Of course, my definition of "decent" doesn't entail +10 refines, R8/9 gears, or for that matter being permacharmed as an archer. Obviously yours does, so you can get your standard "non-factor" rant out of the way now. :P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    A lot of the time if you do range tank on bosses the boss uses their aoe attack which would be a pain for the rest of the squad. A lot of squads would have trouble with peachblossom and hellfire with a range tank. There isn't any issue with the other BH100 bosses though.

    Also I don't think any BH is worth 5 charm ticks lol. 5 charm ticks costs me 200k which eats the majority of the BH reward.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Refining Simulator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/refiningsimulator.html (don't use IE)
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    And so it again comes down to our definitions of "decent." Yes, maybe a high-geared bow archer could solo/tank instances, but a high-geared BM or Sin could do it far faster, so any way you slice it, archers are pretty much the worst tanks.

    Of course, my definition of "decent" doesn't entail +10 refines, R8/9 gears, or for that matter being permacharmed as an archer. Obviously yours does, so you can get your standard "non-factor" rant out of the way now. :P

    I think its already established that I don't care if you or anyone else is a non-factor. After all... I need people like you to make me a factor. Or else we'll all be communists... LOL.

    No **** decent geared sin/bm can do it faster. My sin can probably do it faster then my archer. But with you and everyone else believing that you need aps to solo anything in this game. I am stating that a decently geared bow archer can do the same with maybe an extra minute of time.
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    A lot of the time if you do range tank on bosses the boss uses their aoe attack which would be a pain for the rest of the squad. A lot of squads would have trouble with peachblossom and hellfire with a range tank. There isn't any issue with the other BH100 bosses though.

    Also I don't think any BH is worth 5 charm ticks lol. 5 charm ticks costs me 200k which eats the majority of the BH reward.

    No doubt boss aoes like crazy with me tanking. I would warn the squad... but that still doesn't stop 1/3 of them dropping at fire boss the last time I charm tanked it. Then again... I warned them... so its not really my problem. Sure 5 ticks is costly... but I will only charm tank when my in game wife is there too. The problem is... I play the game maybe 30 minutes for when I do get on. I am not going to wait a whole 20 minutes for a cleric.

    If you are looking purely from the cost saving point of view. With 2 characters there... the 10 subs alone from caster token turn in would easily recover the 200k of my charm cost. And keep in mind that 5 (at the most) ticks is if I am doing it absolutely alone (and slowed by the bh abaddon boss). While most of the time I insist the veno stay safely outside of aoe distance since shes a walking one shot with 5-6k hp. If she would even amp or ironwood the boss... that'll cuts down on a charm tick. And if i can get 4 randoms in the squad... they'll cut down another tick or two.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Spark>claw>spark>claw

    Not seeing the differance in sage and demon here or do archers actually swap to bow for something other than ranged burst dps these days?

    Ok, but if you are doing 5aps triple spark, sage gets a better damage fire buff, and demon may or may not get +2% crit (is that ranged only? i am not sure) and the dps comparison based on increased attack rate for demon was meaningless, and assassin is a better cultivation than archer.

    Anyways, you are right -- dps is very context specific and without also identifying the context its just meaningless numbers.
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Correct me if I am wrong, but did a semi-recent patch (post EG's) make it so bosses choose to melee tank a bow archer instead of ranged tank them? Or is that just happening to coincide with my sage winged blessing?

    The following bosses have closed melee range on me while tanking them (pretty sure more have but I am forgetful):

    Wyvern (BH 51)
    Phlebo
    One of the bosses in SoT (Forget which, it was one of the culti bosses not Hellfire)
    Qingzi (Yes I kno, xD)
    Pole or Nob (Again I forget which, I just kind of DD them and maximize dps without caring about dying because I have charm+heals+crabs.)
    Brigand (79)

    Most commonly would be Wyvern since I help my friend's alts with that BH and Phlebo because I have tanked several fbs.


    @Miugre: I'm uncertain of what your definition of "decent gear" is. I have rather poor gear in comparison to most archer's yet my sharding gives me higher defenses than other better geared/higher aps archers. This enables me to tank quite a few instances. Archers are quite squishy which I realized when trying to improve on some other peoples. And I really am curious of your gear if you think r8 is particularly good. I got it because it was cheaper than full TT99 gold.
    Ring Engraving/Amulet Carving Guide - pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1174451

    Retired from PWI.

    b:bye
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Some bosses are simply melee...but I didn't know Brigand and Qingzi was...
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Qingzi still ranges on casters.... Are you sure you weren't simply too close?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Kerona - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Qingzi still ranges on casters.... Are you sure you weren't simply too close?

    possibly? I swear they just close melee though. Like some attack from range and then they come up close when I lower their hp some. Its weird, idk I don't tank enough/often enough to actually test it thoroughly. Lower levels my goal was never to get hit or have aggro xD
    Ring Engraving/Amulet Carving Guide - pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1174451

    Retired from PWI.

    b:bye
  • Elviron - Dreamweaver
    Elviron - Dreamweaver Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Only Brigand and Qingzi are ranged but they do move about now and then. Perhaps you took aggro from a melee who was too close to you.
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Only Brigand and Qingzi are ranged but they do move about now and then. Perhaps you took aggro from a melee who was too close to you.


    Perhaps they do just walk around or maybe they just want to cuddle me because I'm sage/pure bow? I'll have to test it further when I get the time lol.

    Sometimes if I spike really high crits on Qingzi (afew 70k+ if I'm soloing or something) he actually tries to run from me. If I stop he will just run and won't attack me for a while. It's interesting AI behaviour nonetheless.

    sorry for hijacking the thread e.e
    Ring Engraving/Amulet Carving Guide - pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1174451

    Retired from PWI.

    b:bye
  • Elviron - Dreamweaver
    Elviron - Dreamweaver Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Not sure about the sage/pure bow part cos these 2 bosses I actually like using my bow on.

    In fact during BH79s with my old guildies, I used to tank all 79 bosses save for Styg so as to reduce the barb's repair bill and let them have some fun in human form b:chuckle. Besides they always liked seeing me die/getting whacked/etc.
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I think its already established that I don't care if you or anyone else is a non-factor. After all... I need people like you to make me a factor. Or else we'll all be communists... LOL.
    So the moral of the story is, as long as we can define ourselves relative to someone else, our epeens will still be intact? I mean, sure, if an eternal pissing contest is your idea of fun. :P
    Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    @Miugre: I'm uncertain of what your definition of "decent gear" is. I have rather poor gear in comparison to most archer's yet my sharding gives me higher defenses than other better geared/higher aps archers. This enables me to tank quite a few instances. Archers are quite squishy which I realized when trying to improve on some other peoples. And I really am curious of your gear if you think r8 is particularly good. I got it because it was cheaper than full TT99 gold.
    Whether or not r8 is "good" wasn't actually my concern. :P I personally abstain from all r8 gear, because I do not condone the General Summer's Sales and what they represent. Admittedly, part of that is aesthetics, as I don't like to see a million clones of the same character (y'know, the whole r8 wep/top, nirv legs, 99 LA boots/bracers, 99 HA neck/belt, int cape, int tome, warsoul helm deal... boring). But the more important aspect of r8 is that people act like you need it. You don't. I have 5k HP and, to date, I've tried and survived in every instance in the game except for full RB and warsong (and one of the later TT3s, I forgot if it was 3-2 or 3-3... need to get on that >_>). And those I haven't done are the result of me just being lazy rather than not being able to. XD

    Since you asked, my current build is this. Obviously that build is a bit more eccentric than most... and I'm toying with the idea of going for full lunar nirvana. But even if I did do that, I would still keep all these gears as an "alternate set." Because I maintain that everything in the game PVE-wise can still be done without today's standard gears. Gear can make you OP, but it can't make you competent. A truly skilled player would be "decent" even in NPC gear.

    Other gears I use that are not shown in that build: Soul Crusher, Striker:Glare, Gorenox (green)

    The last time I saw Kiyoshi in-game, he had a partial r9 build. Just to give you an idea of his version of "decent" by comparison. :P
    Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote:
    Not sure about the sage/pure bow part cos these 2 bosses I actually like using my bow on.

    In fact during BH79s with my old guildies, I used to tank all 79 bosses save for Styg so as to reduce the barb's repair bill and let them have some fun in human form . Besides they always liked seeing me die/getting whacked/etc.
    Oh yeah, just about any archer can tank 79. I could do styg under BB, though he'd tick my charm a couple of times if I didn't pot or didn't have a defense blessing on. With the other two, I always volunteered to pull one of the bosses after the other puller already grabbed one, so I could bring it into the range of the other one, STA them both, and then open barrage until one is dead. My pulling genie also has extreme poison on it which was fun to selectively use on each boss while barraging. XD

    (by this, I don't mean that I tanked them both at once - usually someone would out-DPS me on one of them but I'd have the other)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So the moral of the story is, as long as we can define ourselves relative to someone else, our epeens will still be intact? I mean, sure, if an eternal pissing contest is your idea of fun. :P


    Whether or not r8 is "good" wasn't actually my concern. :P I personally abstain from all r8 gear, because I do not condone the General Summer's Sales and what they represent. Admittedly, part of that is aesthetics, as I don't like to see a million clones of the same character (y'know, the whole r8 wep/top, nirv legs, 99 LA boots/bracers, 99 HA neck/belt, int cape, int tome, warsoul helm deal... boring). But the more important aspect of r8 is that people act like you need it. You don't. I have 5k HP and, to date, I've tried and survived in every instance in the game except for full RB and warsong (and one of the later TT3s, I forgot if it was 3-2 or 3-3... need to get on that >_>). And those I haven't done are the result of me just being lazy rather than not being able to. XD

    Since you asked, my current build is this. Obviously that build is a bit more eccentric than most... and I'm toying with the idea of going for full lunar nirvana. But even if I did do that, I would still keep all these gears as an "alternate set." Because I maintain that everything in the game PVE-wise can still be done without today's standard gears. Gear can make you OP, but it can't make you competent. A truly skilled player would be "decent" even in NPC gear.

    Other gears I use that are not shown in that build: Soul Crusher, Striker:Glare, Gorenox (green)

    The last time I saw Kiyoshi in-game, he had a partial r9 build. Just to give you an idea of his version of "decent" by comparison. :P


    Oh yeah, just about any archer can tank 79. I could do styg under BB, though he'd tick my charm a couple of times if I didn't pot or didn't have a defense blessing on. With the other two, I always volunteered to pull one of the bosses after the other puller already grabbed one, so I could bring it into the range of the other one, STA them both, and then open barrage until one is dead. My pulling genie also has extreme poison on it which was fun to selectively use on each boss while barraging. XD

    (by this, I don't mean that I tanked them both at once - usually someone would out-DPS me on one of them but I'd have the other)

    Why do you have mana shards.
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Why do you have mana shards.
    To troll you. :P

    All kidding aside, it actually was partly an aesthetic decision (I didn't want the purple glow/electric effect) and partly "why the hell not." You'll notice I balanced them with other shards. <_>
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So the moral of the story is, as long as we can define ourselves relative to someone else, our epeens will still be intact? I mean, sure, if an eternal pissing contest is your idea of fun. :P

    To be able to defend ourselves... is kinda to be expected of any able being.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Whether or not r8 is "good" wasn't actually my concern. :P I personally abstain from all r8 gear, because I do not condone the General Summer's Sales and what they represent.

    Play the way you want... but don't come up with some **** poor excuse for not getting ranked. Last time I got you in cube 32 (with my sin)... your archer has gold tt90 and your sin has green tt gear. Ranked gear aside... you are well within range of tt99.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I have 5k HP and, to date

    With 5k hp... I can't even be sure if you are fully dexed. Archers have around 3.2k passive hp at level 100. I am not convinced that your gear would give 1.8k hp.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    A truly skilled player would be "decent" even in NPC gear.

    Your truly skilled player is what I would call a "5 chi pot". You WILL NOT find skilled player in anything less then r9 gear. Skilled player are well known and are sought after for various runs. And those runs make money... hence skilled player will always have top shelf gear.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The last time I saw Kiyoshi in-game, he had a partial r9 build. Just to give you an idea of his version of "decent" by comparison. :P

    I haven't had partial r9 for over half a year now... so the last time you checked my gear must be ancient.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    To be able to defend ourselves... is kinda to be expected of any able being.
    Or, y'know, we could be secure enough in ourselves to not feel a need to "defend" ourselves by judging other people.
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Play the way you want... but don't come up with some **** poor excuse for not getting ranked. Last time I got you in cube 32 (with my sin)... your archer has gold tt90 and your sin has green tt gear. Ranked gear aside... you are well within range of tt99.
    I've got no damn idea who your sin even is, and I don't particularly care. Half the time I afk in 32 because if someone wants me dead, oh effin' well. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. So I probably came back to find myself in room 1 and didn't bother to even check my log and see what the name was. :P

    I'm certainly able to get tt99, and I plan to do so for my sin as well as my barb. So since we've established that I could easily get r8 if I wanted, then indeed, why don't I? Maybe someone can choose gears for reasons that don't involve trying to be perfect? Nooo, that can't happen.
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    With 5k hp... I can't even be sure if you are fully dexed. Archers have around 3.2k passive hp at level 100. I am not convinced that your gear would give 1.8k hp.
    Yeah, because it's not like I linked my build in my last post or anything. >_>
    *sits back and waits patiently for you to derail the entire thread with a detailed critique of how I'm not pro* :3
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Your truly skilled player is what I would call a "5 chi pot". You WILL NOT find skilled player in anything less then r9 gear. Skilled player are well known and are sought after for various runs. And those runs make money... hence skilled player will always have top shelf gear.
    Skill is independent of gear. >_> Not all skilled players have a desire for OP gears. Is that really so hard to understand?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Or, y'know, we could be secure enough in ourselves to not feel a need to "defend" ourselves by judging other people.

    Since you are so secure in yourself... are you one of those who are secure enough to roll over when a bully picks on you? Just going to stand there and be the guy's morning work out? It seems you are defending yourself find with words... only to fail when it comes to action.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Yeah, because it's not like I linked my build in my last post or anything. >_>
    *sits back and waits patiently for you to derail the entire thread with a detailed critique of how I'm not pro* :3

    I don't click on random links. And there is no point for me to critique anything... you are doing all the work for me. When people ask for help... they generally want to make the BEST of what they have. Not make the WORSE of what they can. Considering you said you can afford r8 and choose not to... not sure you'll find many people who purposely nerf themselves.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Skill is independent of gear. >_> Not all skilled players have a desire for OP gears. Is that really so hard to understand?

    Anyone can call themselves skilled.... but it only really counts if someone else consider you to be skilled. I have yet seem a skilled player without top shelf and highly refined gear. And as I said before and will continue to say... you can be the most skilled player in the game but as long as you are dealing three digit damage... you might as well suck. Nothing say humiliation like NOT being able to kill an afk sleeping target.

    EDIT: Let me ask you this... since we are on the same server... and we have seem each other in game. Would you consider yourself to be more skilled then... say me? Or since you are so "secure" with yourself... which of the other r9 archers would you consider yourself to be more skilled?
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • snufalufaguss
    snufalufaguss Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Gear can make you OP, but it can't make you competent. A truly skilled player would be "decent" even in NPC gear.

    Full NPC gear squad as is straight from NPC {vs} Illusion Lord: Armageddon

    Who would win?

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