Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    truekossy wrote: »
    On a side note, 40k HP cata build barbs that are sharded pure jades are perfectly logical assuming +12 refines: http://pwcalc.com/32ec343021fe1a0d

    Carry on. b:cute

    And note that with purge proc and sage sharpened tooth, that barb has 19047 health. (Edit: oops, wrong, dumb, careless -- i cancelled all his buffs in pwcalc but i cannot purge true form. 26303 health)

    In principle, I can hit 14 times with my bow (edit: give or take a shot), during a charm cooldown, and that could include every metal attack and sage frost arrow. So, if I had the full 10 seconds, I would need to average 1360 damage per shot... (edit: an average of something near 1879 per shot) I might even be able to kill him without sparking? Clearly, though, triple spark would make this much easier.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    With Purge and Sage STA that barb has 26k hp :o
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Lets talk about things that are actually important for archers...
    1) does bigger breast size decrease dexterity/combat effectivness? does the distraction factor make up for decreased manuverability?
    2) are all male archers really ***? and if so can they just stormrage eachother?
    3) does full r9 make my butt look overly large?

    seriously the above topics seem just as relevant as the previous month of posts. Can you all please stop diarrheating over the archer forums. b:fatb

    cultivation can be switched easily, it would actually take less time to level a new archer to 104 then doing the damn chrono to swap (ofc ud have to do the chrono on new char as well). Just roll sage, realize your character sucks, reroll demon. Or roll demon, realize you suck anyways, and your only saving grace is your full r9+12 in which case you could pick neither cultivation and still faceroll a decent amount of the server w/ auto attack. (seriously if you foundd the past month of posts to be useful start practicing or delete character please)

    what is the point of arguing with idiots? Those who believe them are also (being) idiotic. leave them to suffer in eternal faildom. Those who suffer due to inexperience will eventually (hopefully <_<) gain enough experience to make their own decisions.

    /inb4omgcontradiction

    edit: I mean just imagine that im a young lvl 1 starry-eyed nubile baby archer. I end up leveling too fast and go zOMG demon vs sage?! bumbumbumbaaaaa! archer forums to the rescue! convenient sticky.... *reads*...

    Holy ****! wtf is this! Online text based dungeons and dragons?! In response to theoretical enemy x performing Y action I choose to respond w/ wtffail which SHOULD instant win! but due to gear differential of sagerange^#ofhiddenvenomancer enemy is victorious! QQQQQ must cashshop moar!

    If I was a new archer more then likely I just wanted to crit like a mother****er die like a lemming and have hot elf x elf action! Instead I see all these "pro" archers bikering about...uhm?... WHAT THE **** are we even ARGUING ABOUT?!
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Ruvi's so cute when she gets worked up b:heartb:heartb:heart
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Refining Simulator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/refiningsimulator.html (don't use IE)
    Genie Calculator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/geniecalculator.html - (don't use IE)
    Socket Calculator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html
  • Anfisa - Lost City
    Anfisa - Lost City Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I think this thread can be ended now. And Ruvi's 3 important factors need their own threads made. b:cute
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    It wont end tho, because archers like to argue, and when there is no new material around here to discuss, they seem to come back to these topics D:
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    I like Ruvil's topics more.

    However, this thread has recently become a nice source of entertainment for when I need a good laugh.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    well played >.>

    @ Kiyoshi: So what your saying is that you really have no support for anything you say aside from "Ihasrank9bow" Your argueing that archers dont kite, ever, even vs other rank 9's that can one shot them. Thats like saying "I dont need to take cover I can stop this bullet with my face"

    Every player with half a brain kites in pvp when its needed even meles.

    And seriously if you have that much trouble with bm's...lol

    Kiting is something I do when I was 8x/9x and am trying to get a nix stuck behind a hill/tree. Whats the point to kite now when anything I point to drop in 1-3 shots?
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And note that with purge proc and sage sharpened tooth, that barb has 19047 health. (Edit: oops, wrong, dumb, careless -- i cancelled all his buffs in pwcalc but i cannot purge true form. 26303 health)

    Lets me get this straight... according to to fresh I shouldn't leave my "fight up to luck." referring to my 40% crit rate when fighting against other archers... and yet I can rely on my 8% purge rate when fighting against barbs.
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    In principle, I can hit 14 times with my bow (edit: give or take a shot), during a charm cooldown, and that could include every metal attack and sage frost arrow. So, if I had the full 10 seconds, I would need to average 1360 damage per shot... (edit: an average of something near 1879 per shot) I might even be able to kill him without sparking? Clearly, though, triple spark would make this much easier.

    That barb has 93 def levels... which more of less cancels out all my attack levels. Even buff-less its p.def is 85% and mdef is 63%. I won't be surprised if my crits didn't even hit 4 digit damage. And yet... you are already planning for almost 2k in damage per shot. But congratulation... your math did something that not even +12 100 attack level archers can accomplish.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Slight mistake on the calc now that I've checked the link. It has jades in weap where (unless you're really dedicated to defense levels for whatever reason), no sane person would do it. So you can drop 4 defense levels (though you could essentially add those back by putting on an upgraded cube/warsong neck and belt).
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Lets me get this straight... according to to fresh I shouldn't leave my "fight up to luck." referring to my 40% crit rate when fighting against other archers... and yet I can rely on my 8% purge rate when fighting against barbs.

    I do not understand your question, so I think you must be thinking about something that I do not remember reading.

    But: of course your 40% crit rate will kick in frequently where your 5% (or whatever) purge rate will be rare! But I would not rely on your crit hitting (for example) 10 times in a row, where one purge can result in (for example) 10 purged hits in a row.
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    That barb has 93 def levels... which more of less cancels out all my attack levels. Even buff-less its p.def is 85% and mdef is 63%. I won't be surprised if my crits didn't even hit 4 digit damage. And yet... you are already planning for almost 2k in damage per shot. But congratulation... your math did something that not even +12 100 attack level archers can accomplish.

    Yes, he would have 63.4% damage reduction on your frost arrow and for the fire damage portion of your attacks. And, if you use thundershock, he would have 51.3% damage reduction on your metal attacks.

    And, if you have anything left on your genie, you might also be able to increase your damage somewhat.

    Anyways, when computing odds of delivering enough damage against him, you really need to include not only your damage range, but your crit chance, your miss chance, and every other factor you can quantify...

    And if you have an 0.83 attack rate, I think you could be able to hit him roughly 11 times in 9 seconds? I am assuming here that you use zooming thunder and a carefully designed macro. (This is one of the times when your DoT attacks can be worthwhile, since they only take 0.6 seconds under zooming thunder and they count like a normal attack.) 8 of those would be skill attacks (9 if you include take aim cancelled), 3 of them would be metal attacks. So, yes, a lot of them would be physical attacks and would hit for 14.5% damage for the bulk of their damage.

    But i have not worked through the math for you: I do not know what setup you would use.
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Rawr.

    Thanks, I was far too lazy to yell at everybody for circle-jerking on my thread.

    Clearly almost everything worth covering at the moment has already been discussed, it's nice to see some more activity but we aren't really doing anything but arguing semantics on topics that have almost no relevance to a bigger picture. We are at what, 70 pages? That's a lot to read through, please try and keep wall-o-texts limited to something worth it or else people won't even bother trying to read the last dozen pages.


    Edit: I want to re-visit my last couple sentences. Anything and everything should be discussed, but try and relate it to something more fundamental to an archers attributes such as damage or survival. That way someone reading this thread for information can actually weigh it properly. Also, tl;dr is a nice little abstract for someone skimming through.

    tl;dr explain at the end of your wall of text how this relates to a fundamental archery quality.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    truekossy wrote: »
    Slight mistake on the calc now that I've checked the link. It has jades in weap where (unless you're really dedicated to defense levels for whatever reason), no sane person would do it. So you can drop 4 defense levels (though you could essentially add those back by putting on an upgraded cube/warsong neck and belt).

    There is 2 people on HT (that I know of) with jades in their weapon... and even more with stage 3 cube neck/belt.
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    But i have not worked through the math for you: I do not know what setup you would use.

    Or before you even work the math... go out and try to kill one of those barbs. On any given server... you are going to have more fingers then archers that will do more damage then me. And I can guarantee none of them will say they can or have single handily killed a cata barb. Even if I manage to 20% genie amp him, 25% vow curse him, 20% sage sharp him... lvl 10 frenzy him... it still won't happen. All he has to do is either apoc, invoke, or genie... and it'll be all over.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Howwwwww did I miss this one. Always late to the party.
    1) does bigger breast size decrease dexterity/combat effectivness? does the distraction factor make up for decreased manuverability?
    2) are all male archers really ***? and if so can they just stormrage eachother?
    3) does full r9 make my butt look overly large?

    Yes.
    sagerange^#ofhiddenvenomancer enemy is victorious

    ^ This is how all PvP should be.
    I am the bone of my harem
    **** is my body and venom is my blood
    I have created over a thousand Venos
    Unaware of fantasy, Nor aware of reality
    Have withstood pain to create many harems
    Yet, those hands will never hold anything
    So as I pray, unlimited Veno works!

    A true work of art. Brought a tear to my eyes.
    For a better idea of what Ruvil means please refer to this picture of Ruvil IRL.

    You put my eye out.

    I had more to say then I saw Qui's masterpiece and spit out my redbull.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Exposing all my mischief b:sad
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Kerona - Sanctuary
    Kerona - Sanctuary Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    :O tl;dr version
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Uriah - Raging Tide
    Uriah - Raging Tide Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    562 dex+Sage Bow Mastery>Demon and fists. Ijs
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Uriah - Raging Tide wrote: »
    562 dex+Sage Bow Mastery>Demon and fists. Ijs

    That's not really an adequate or fair comparison. Purely apples to oranges...
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
    Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray
  • BuCi - Harshlands
    BuCi - Harshlands Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    im denom. wanna see how long ma i playing
  • Sint - Harshlands
    Sint - Harshlands Posts: 579 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    BuCi - Harshlands wrote: »
    im denom. wanna see how long ma i playing

    grats on misspelling both demon and am
  • devotion
    devotion Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    4 digit PW id number ftw b:victory
    I like to rub it in. Enjoying the game?
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=1810092&postcount=6
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3518732&postcount=17
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3986762&postcount=6
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • gyzmos
    gyzmos Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    Only know of terrible archers on lost city and harshlands. Maybe heaven's tear knows how to roll. b:mischievous

    no they dont know how to roll they suck on HT
  • Voirshn - Raging Tide
    Voirshn - Raging Tide Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Just to let you know the scenario I'll tell you I'm full PVE grinder type with surely under 300 BH runs.

    Intro.
    Well I'm finally demon archer with the help of a humble Tales of Beauty. I confess during the 30 initial levels of the game I played rough tanking things due I guess to I never played this game seriously. By about lvl.35 did the maths and noticed the big amount of cash wasted on repairs and pots so restated following this time the path of a relative standard full dex build. Yes I was kinda happy but I was still missing some illusory crit rate in order to pew pew--> mob down.

    Research and Dismemberment (Experiment in itself).
    Once 89 culti was done, I decided to do some experiment consistent in restating again but this time I *on purpose* sacrified my str points in order to get a better crit rate...guess what?
    Worked amazingly! I'm able to grind phys and mag mobs +6 levels over mine. They barely can touch me. Now I feel satisfied! -I yelled- and the happy story longed several days.

    Analysis.
    One day a friend took me to his FB and I was anxious for testing my 'bran new crits' on elite mobs. Well results weren't that satisfactory as expected. At some point inside the instance I remembered Alpha Male genie skill 'cuz my hits surely did a good job lowering mobs HP but if for some -server maths- reason I wasn't able to crit in a 4/10 basis at least mobs could easily lower MY hp pretty fast as well.

    Results.
    I died 3 times.

    Assesment.
    I'm not gonna discuss the gear involved since thru my looking glass that kind of statements might drive the topic away to another section. My personal experience is as follows:
    54 str and 403 dex = Excellent for grinding (particularly when 2Xdrops), horrible for Instances.
    Please note I'm by no means telling you how to do or not things in game. I'm just sharing my radical experiment in order to continue the topic about demon/sage and archer builds near the end game, so I'd like some feedback.

    Well now gotta get back to farming in order to buy the dam Intermediate Reset.

    b:chuckle b:bye
  • Badazmofo - Dreamweaver
    Badazmofo - Dreamweaver Posts: 407 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Voirshn - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Just to let you know the scenario I'll tell you I'm full PVE grinder type with surely under 300 BH runs.

    Intro.
    Well I'm finally demon archer with the help of a humble Tales of Beauty. I confess during the 30 initial levels of the game I played rough tanking things due I guess to I never played this game seriously. By about lvl.35 did the maths and noticed the big amount of cash wasted on repairs and pots so restated following this time the path of a relative standard full dex build. Yes I was kinda happy but I was still missing some illusory crit rate in order to pew pew--> mob down.

    Research and Dismemberment (Experiment in itself).
    Once 89 culti was done, I decided to do some experiment consistent in restating again but this time I *on purpose* sacrified my str points in order to get a better crit rate...guess what?
    Worked amazingly! I'm able to grind phys and mag mobs +6 levels over mine. They barely can touch me. Now I feel satisfied! -I yelled- and the happy story longed several days.

    Analysis.
    One day a friend took me to his FB and I was anxious for testing my 'bran new crits' on elite mobs. Well results weren't that satisfactory as expected. At some point inside the instance I remembered Alpha Male genie skill 'cuz my hits surely did a good job lowering mobs HP but if for some -server maths- reason I wasn't able to crit in a 4/10 basis at least mobs could easily lower MY hp pretty fast as well.

    Results.
    I died 3 times.

    Assesment.
    I'm not gonna discuss the gear involved since thru my looking glass that kind of statements might drive the topic away to another section. My personal experience is as follows:
    54 str and 403 dex = Excellent for grinding (particularly when 2Xdrops), horrible for Instances.
    Please note I'm by no means telling you how to do or not things in game. I'm just sharing my radical experiment in order to continue the topic about demon/sage and archer builds near the end game, so I'd like some feedback.

    Well now gotta get back to farming in order to buy the dam Intermediate Reset.

    b:chuckle b:bye

    Unless you are fist build (or stating to use fist later) you should be pure dex. Im a fist archer but even in a instance i perfer to use bow unless the mob is pure phys or unless its a mob that has a large amount of hp (bosses excluded). In a instance with elite mobs it really comes down to your squad mechanics and gear, if you have good gear youll be fine, if you have a good squad youll be fine, or if you have decent gear and a decent squad you should be fine... most of the way anyway
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • laloner
    laloner Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2011
    I read through a lot of this and despite the strongly worded threat of being called **** I went Sage.
    AKA PermaSpark, Heartshatter
  • Nifertily - Archosaur
    Nifertily - Archosaur Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Uhm how would you get those paths? :/
    I wish I could really fly..
    It would be so much easier to be with you.

    b:heart
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Nifertily - Archosaur wrote: »
    Uhm how would you get those paths? :/

    You get to choose once you reach level 89.
  • Blackveil - Dreamweaver
    Blackveil - Dreamweaver Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Demon biased much? XD i like sage and alot of my friends are sucessfull sage arcers, both are neither the "best" they both have pros and cons , its just on what your play style is :)
  • Hurrdurr - Lothranis
    Hurrdurr - Lothranis Posts: 1,468 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Blackveil - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Demon biased much? XD i like sage and alot of my friends are sucessfull sage arcers, both are neither the "best" they both have pros and cons , its just on what your play style is :)

    Dreamweaver...sage archers....successful....

    Lucy_Black?
  • Blackveil - Dreamweaver
    Blackveil - Dreamweaver Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Yes ... i know of about 40 who are epic tbh
    No i got my name from black veil brides ... the band :)
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »
    Lucy_Black?
    Blackveil - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Yes

    OH GODS NO KEEP IT AWAY! b:shockedb:shockedb:shocked

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