Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

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  • Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So what... you expect to run around with quickshot always on? Unless they change the game... its 50% chance. What about the other 50% that it doesn't proac? Waste of 1s channel and .6s cast if it doesn't proac.

    Pretty sure (when quickshot doesn't proac) sage can fire off AT LEAST 1.5 arrow in the time it takes demon to fire off 1 quickshot. +50% damage (20k) > +2.5k damage... if you really want to play this game.

    Right because a 3 second CD skill with a 50% proc is soooooooo hard to activate?

    But if you insist 10% crit boost + 100 attack levels > 1/42 damage boost.

    OMGZ
    I give up on beign a blademaster. Gonna go wave my tranny **** around and pew pew.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Right because a 3 second CD skill with a 50% proc is soooooooo hard to activate?

    Fighting against another top archer... you really think you'll have the chance for a 2nd go at quick shot? Standing battles between +12 archers doesn't last long... especially when there is an 8% chance of purge.
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    But if you insist 10% crit boost + 100 attack levels > 1/42 damage boost.

    Sure... lets go with stun/sharp arrow. Still depend on who fires first. A 4.5 second stun from a sage will just as easily end a battle as a 10% extra crit demon stun.

    Before we continue... I have to ask. Do you even have access to the gear/skills that you are basing your argument on? Or are we going in to another whole I can calculate the damage and scenario thing?
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Something to keep in mind with sage stun vs demon stun. Both stuns can be resisted with an anti stun skill. Actually archer stuns don't even have to be resisted, the shot could miss or the stun can simply fail. No matter what demon keeps the extra crit while the sage stun is just a dud.
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Something to keep in mind with sage stun vs demon stun. Both stuns can be resisted with an anti stun skill. Actually archer stuns don't even have to be resisted, the shot could miss or the stun can simply fail. No matter what demon keeps the extra crit while the sage stun is just a dud.

    Yes... I think it should be obvious that demon stun is superior against someone immune to movement debuffs, where sage stun is superior against someone without immunity. Also, genies have given people new forms of immunity.

    Also, generally speaking, for 1v1, I think sage advantages (of higher base damage, longer range and, in some cases, slightly faster skills) cater to quick battles, and demon advantages seem to cater to extended battles. A sage cannot beat an equivalently geared demon's dps when the demon has time to get going, but a demon needs to get that time, somehow.

    And I think this point of view fits with comments about how when gear gets good enough it does not matter which cultivation you chose. (When you have a weaker weapon, combat will tend to last longer.)
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yes... I think it should be obvious that demon stun is superior against someone immune to movement debuffs, where sage stun is superior against someone without immunity. Also, genies have given people new forms of immunity.
    That assumes the attack hits/procs, obviously. I think the general point being made above is that because an archer's stun can be resisted, can fail to proc, or can miss completely (nothing sucks more than using stun on a robe and seeing miss pop up), that diminishes the power of sage's in a way when compared to demon since unless cancelled or interrupted, demon's crit buff will always come up when you use stun.
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Also, generally speaking, for 1v1, I think sage advantages (of higher base damage, longer range and, in some cases, slightly faster skills) cater to quick battles, and demon advantages seem to cater to extended battles. A sage cannot beat an equivalently geared demon's dps when the demon has time to get going, but a demon needs to get that time, somehow.
    Except... that makes little sense given the (mis)conception that Sage archers are for better survival. After all, if your skills are geared for defense and the like, a drawn-out battle benefits you more. Plus considering that most sage skills seem to be more about extending your own resources/survival time/effect time compared to demon's short bursts of certain effects, a longer battle is supposed to favor a sage via attrition. Of course, the problem with that being that with lower-end gear, sage doesn't have the raw damage needed to bypass charms... or the burst damage needed to race them.
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And I think this point of view fits with comments about how when gear gets good enough it does not matter which cultivation you chose. (When you have a weaker weapon, combat will tend to last longer.)
    Nah. When you're at that point in time gear-wise, you can run around without a cultivation (or with just the third spark/associated skill) and still rack up the kills easily. Essentially, sage has always been able to shine only when you get to a point where the gear is such a huge impact that nothing else really matters (See: this trainwreck as a prime example)
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Anfisa - Lost City wrote: »
    @Vindis: Your wizards have gush which they spam, glacial snare with the best slow, hailstorm, and even BIDS for a slow. If the barb got out of their range, he probably got out of yours too unless you are positioned a lot further back than them. Also its not like wizards have blink or holy path to catch up. For your excess of chi and considering the barb is the only one left in this case, why not triple spark and use metal?

    Let's not forget I also have chi to spare on alacrity or I can use holy path. Many times a barb has attempted to make a break past our towers towards the base (probably in an attempt to get the defense to collapse inward). If I can run up, Aim low one, frost the other, stun and TS nuke the aim low'd one, then hopefully someone else can get the other in that time. Others will react as well, but generally my range and awareness allow me to react quicker, especially since my main job (robe killer) tends to finish fast. IF I can solo a barb and let my wizzy hold the frontline then it is better, especially since there is generally 2 archers to a squad (Archers are so abundant on DW lol).

    And yes, I may have an excess of chi, but I am also thrifty with it. If I can nuke a barb with Frost-->TS-->LS then I have used less chi than an Aim Low-->TS-->LS and much less chi than a 3 spark. Aim Low is still free to use if I need to use it. Im pretty sure Ive only 3 sparked once or twice in a TW (3 spark is pretty much a big stunlock me plz sign lol). If anything I would waste 3 sparks on a WoG+BoA or 3 aim lows.

    You aren't always with a wizard and sometimes your wizard is dead or occupied (Sins seem more likely to gank my brother than I, though he has better defenses selfbuffed...). Yes, if a caster is nearby I will likely just TS a barb and move on (as previously stated), though if TS and LS are on cooldown and the barb has low hp, I will shoot frost because it does hurt.

    Also, not sure about your server pop, but Wizzy is one of the most needed classes for every TW faction here on DW (not sure about Regen; I can only speak for factions I have been in and factions I have went against).
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  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    you guys are all noobs, should sage vicious arrow a sin if they are trying to stealth.

    not only do you apply a DoT that will knock them out of stealth due to damage (theorycraft ftl). you get an additional chance of draining enough mana to force the sin out of stealth!

    double win.

    and like seriously, so noob, vicious arrow ftw!
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So what... you expect to run around with quickshot always on? Unless they change the game... its 50% chance. What about the other 50% that it doesn't proac? Waste of 1s channel and .6s cast if it doesn't proac.

    Pretty sure (when quickshot doesn't proac) sage can fire off AT LEAST 1.5 arrow in the time it takes demon to fire off 1 quickshot. +50% damage (20k) > +2.5k damage... if you really want to play this game.


    Trying to keep this as relevant as possible...

    Consistently high damage isn't something an archer leans towards. Sometimes you simply can't out DPS a high HP targets charm.

    As an archer you want to be within range for as little time as possible. While sage could deal more damage than a demon archer spamming quickshot the demon archer can kite until QS procs.
  • Anfisa - Lost City
    Anfisa - Lost City Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Let's not forget I also have chi to spare on alacrity or I can use holy path. Many times a barb has attempted to make a break past our towers towards the base (probably in an attempt to get the defense to collapse inward). If I can run up, Aim low one, frost the other, stun and TS nuke the aim low'd one, then hopefully someone else can get the other in that time. Others will react as well, but generally my range and awareness allow me to react quicker, especially since my main job (robe killer) tends to finish fast. IF I can solo a barb and let my wizzy hold the frontline then it is better, especially since there is generally 2 archers to a squad (Archers are so abundant on DW lol).

    And yes, I may have an excess of chi, but I am also thrifty with it. If I can nuke a barb with Frost-->TS-->LS then I have used less chi than an Aim Low-->TS-->LS and much less chi than a 3 spark. Aim Low is still free to use if I need to use it. Im pretty sure Ive only 3 sparked once or twice in a TW (3 spark is pretty much a big stunlock me plz sign lol). If anything I would waste 3 sparks on a WoG+BoA or 3 aim lows.

    You aren't always with a wizard and sometimes your wizard is dead or occupied (Sins seem more likely to gank my brother than I, though he has better defenses selfbuffed...). Yes, if a caster is nearby I will likely just TS a barb and move on (as previously stated), though if TS and LS are on cooldown and the barb has low hp, I will shoot frost because it does hurt.

    Also, not sure about your server pop, but Wizzy is one of the most needed classes for every TW faction here on DW (not sure about Regen; I can only speak for factions I have been in and factions I have went against).

    Alacrity seems a bit of a waste to use as a holy path due to CD, but idk how soon you need to be somewhere. Also, why no mention of TB? And of course 3 spark is a sign that says "please stun and kill me now" but we are talking about defense where a barb has broken through the front lines so it would be safe. If other people also got through then you should be killing them first. On our server, the factor guilds have plenty of wizards and physics, or at least enough not to have a sage archer use frost arrow to pretend to be a wizard. It just feels like there are so many targets other than barbs for you to be focusing on.
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Anfisa - Lost City wrote: »
    Alacrity seems a bit of a waste to use as a holy path due to CD, but idk how soon you need to be somewhere. Also, why no mention of TB? And of course 3 spark is a sign that says "please stun and kill me now" but we are talking about defense where a barb has broken through the front lines so it would be safe. If other people also got through then you should be killing them first. On our server, the factor guilds have plenty of wizards and physics, or at least enough not to have a sage archer use frost arrow to pretend to be a wizard. It just feels like there are so many targets other than barbs for you to be focusing on.

    I suppose, though on DW (the land of the fail; r8+10 wep; +2-4 armor) its pretty easy to kill someone. I'm having abit of trouble properly expressing my role in TW properly, especially since I believe most (good) sage archers have abit of a different playstyle than the typical archer. And this was of course referring to defending, where I really just deal with their first 2 or so pushes. I mean, yes other things die first (also said previously), but if the barb is left alone Im not going to just stand there and do nothing. Sage frost is useful, its not TS, but it is some nice damage, more than any phys based attack should do to a heavy. Sometimes TS/LS is on cooldown from nuking a BM or a plumed cleric, or a wizard.

    Oh and I didnt consider TB because I wouldnt really consider an aoe on a single target, though now that I have the sage version (faster chan) I should at least try it out in a similar situation.
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  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

    Oh and I didnt consider TB because I wouldnt really consider an aoe on a single target, though now that I have the sage version (faster chan) I should at least try it out in a similar situation.

    Does this mean you wouldn't STA a barb if no one else is in aoe range?
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Does this mean you wouldn't STA a barb if no one else is in aoe range?

    No lol, I always open with STA on a barb. I often forget its an aoe though unless Im in an aoe mindset. I tend to focus more on single target damage and control skills in TW. I would especially STA a barb if they had invoke up. If the barb is nearly dead though I wouldn't bother.
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  • Anfisa - Lost City
    Anfisa - Lost City Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I suppose, though on DW (the land of the fail; r8+10 wep; +2-4 armor) its pretty easy to kill someone. I'm having abit of trouble properly expressing my role in TW properly, especially since I believe most (good) sage archers have abit of a different playstyle than the typical archer. And this was of course referring to defending, where I really just deal with their first 2 or so pushes. I mean, yes other things die first (also said previously), but if the barb is left alone Im not going to just stand there and do nothing. Sage frost is useful, its not TS, but it is some nice damage, more than any phys based attack should do to a heavy. Sometimes TS/LS is on cooldown from nuking a BM or a plumed cleric, or a wizard.

    Oh and I didnt consider TB because I wouldnt really consider an aoe on a single target, though now that I have the sage version (faster chan) I should at least try it out in a similar situation.

    You only argument against triple spark was that you would get stunned. I acknowledged that the barb is the only thing left, so I am saying it is safe to do so as there is no one to stun you. From there you can just use your more powerful metal attacks. But meh, everyone plays differently.
    Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    No lol, I always open with STA on a barb. I often forget its an aoe though unless Im in an aoe mindset. I tend to focus more on single target damage and control skills in TW. I would especially STA a barb if they
    had invoke up. If the barb is nearly dead though I wouldn't bother.

    Actually STA when they are almost dead can be worth it depending on when their charm is gonna tick. Very situational, but it deserves a mention.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    Trying to keep this as relevant as possible...

    Consistently high damage isn't something an archer leans towards. Sometimes you simply can't out DPS a high HP targets charm.

    As an archer you want to be within range for as little time as possible. While sage could deal more damage than a demon archer spamming quickshot the demon archer can kite until QS procs.

    Kiting is no longer an option for many... myself included. Consider that even 15k hp archers can easily get one shotted by some random wiz wielding an r9. And I have seem full r9 archers get critted over 10k by other r9 archers. Kiting is more often then not escaping at this time of age. If you can't kill an opposing r9 before he turns his attention to you... might as well consider yourselves dead... or just run.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    . might as well consider yourselves dead... or just run.

    b:chuckle Thats Kite!~
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  • Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiteing is useless because people hit hard?

    ...

    ...

    ...

    Well thats full on **** backwards.
    I give up on beign a blademaster. Gonna go wave my tranny **** around and pew pew.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    b:chuckle Thats Kite!~

    By run... doesn't mean you come back to the same target.
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Kiteing is useless because people hit hard?

    ...

    ...

    ...

    Well thats full on **** backwards.

    Really... if i can one shot you... how do you expect to kite me? As an archer... i have the longest consistent dd range in the game. The demon archers that actually need to use quick shot on me will barely have over 10k hp at best. If i can crit up to 10k... how would you propose the said demon archer to kite me until he can use quick shot again (assuming the first time it didn't proac)? If i have him selected... there is no freaking way he'll hit me again before i fire off at least one shot (very well could be a kill shot). If i am distracted... then there is no point in kiting or anything is there.

    If the guy have you selected... its not possible to kite him when he has a longer range. and its not efficient to kite him when he can one shot you.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Simple. I attack you to gain your attention, then kite like no tomorrow to keep you distracted as my veno harem (or whatever other type of backup I may have) attacks you. Should you switch your attention to one of them, I immediately return to attacking you.

    Granted, this won't work if you have backup too, but that's one of the great things about pulling stuff outta nowhere.
  • Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    By run... doesn't mean you come back to the same target.



    Really... if i can one shot you... how do you expect to kite me? As an archer... i have the longest consistent dd range in the game. The demon archers that actually need to use quick shot on me will barely have over 10k hp at best. If i can crit up to 10k... how would you propose the said demon archer to kite me until he can use quick shot again (assuming the first time it didn't proac)? If i have him selected... there is no freaking way he'll hit me again before i fire off at least one shot (very well could be a kill shot). If i am distracted... then there is no point in kiting or anything is there.

    If the guy have you selected... its not possible to kite him when he has a longer range. and its not efficient to kite him when he can one shot you.

    I would assume the other archer also had +10 refined and sharded rank 9 gear and could take a hit or 2 then geni out of stun/imune.

    You've been fighting too many veno hoards.
    I give up on beign a blademaster. Gonna go wave my tranny **** around and pew pew.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Archer vs archer battles are pretty lame. Between miss, crit, and purge it's all random. If the gear is the same luck will matter more than cultivation.
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I would assume the other archer also had +10 refined and sharded rank 9 gear and could take a hit or 2 then geni out of stun/imune.

    You've been fighting too many veno hoards.

    Full +10 r9 armor archer would give about 10k hp (not counting shards)... and like 25 (est.) def levels. +12 r9 bow with 95 (est.) attack level could still one shot from full hp. I don't think you'll see r9 archer kiting each other... if one run... its running for good (or running until they see back up).

    And archer don't really kite against robe classes... if you can't kill them... there is really no point in kiting considering the damage they can do to you while you are on the run. With every last robe and their dog sporting holy path... kiting isn't much of an option anymore.

    Lets not even talk about kiting against 40k hp barbs or sins... there is just absolutely no point here. Unless your goal is to just harass the barb... since we all should agree getting a kill is not a possibility.

    So whats left... BMs? Any half brain BM isn't going to let you out run him on regular skills. So it all comes down to who has the longest holy path chain (alacrity). Which brings us back to the point... if you can't kill them the first time around... what make you think you can kill them the second time around?

    And regarding your reply. I am probably the only archer on HT with a 90% chance to remove stun (as far as I know). And cause of my dex genie... I also have the longest single holy path timer. If i can't kill someone during the first go... and got stunned in return. Yea... I can genie out... apoc immune... and holy path out. But really... with my genie drained and apoc timer on cool down. Chance are I won't be able to live through a second go at the same target.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Full +10 r9 armor archer would give about 10k hp (not counting shards)... and like 25 (est.) def levels. +12 r9 bow with 95 (est.) attack level could still one shot from full hp. I don't think you'll see r9 archer kiting each other... if one run... its running for good (or running until they see back up).

    Ya no sanc has full +11-+12 DoT drakeflamed archers and in map pvp the competent ones kite each other like mad and time imune pots/skills for the time they're in range.

    And archer don't really kite against robe classes... if you can't kill them... there is really no point in kiting considering the damage they can do to you while you are on the run. With every last robe and their dog sporting holy path... kiting isn't much of an option anymore.

    Yes you should not kite the class with less range than you that can also one hit you on a crit. The only threat here should be wizzies with their cursed blink @_@

    Lets not even talk about kiting against 40k hp barbs or sins... there is just absolutely no point here. Unless your goal is to just harass the barb... since we all should agree getting a kill is not a possibility.

    The barb will eventually drop on a crit chain+purge, the sin, GL with that.

    So whats left... BMs? Any half brain BM isn't going to let you out run him on regular skills. So it all comes down to who has the longest holy path chain (alacrity). Which brings us back to the point... if you can't kill them the first time around... what make you think you can kill them the second time around?

    Fly up, accelerate, look your untouchable. Oh and on the ground you cna antistun longer than the bm so your going to stun+freeze them first, then have geni, then have antistun again. Seriously your jokeing right?

    And regarding your reply. I am probably the only archer on HT with a 90% chance to remove stun (as far as I know). And cause of my dex genie... I also have the longest single holy path timer. If i can't kill someone during the first go... and got stunned in return. Yea... I can genie out... apoc immune... and holy path out. But really... with my genie drained and apoc timer on cool down. Chance are I won't be able to live through a second go at the same target.

    So your server is full of crappy players who dont geni and your bad at edge walking

    My old bm would drop in and out of 30 meter ranges with only 1 antistun and a mele range. Words cant even decribe how much easier it is to do the same with a real ranged class.

    (seriously I laughed at your bm comment)
    I give up on beign a blademaster. Gonna go wave my tranny **** around and pew pew.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    truekossy wrote: »
    Simple. I attack you to gain your attention, then kite like no tomorrow to keep you distracted as my veno harem (or whatever other type of backup I may have) attacks you. Should you switch your attention to one of them, I immediately return to attacking you.

    In my experience, that can work even when you have backup, if your side has a better idea of how to conduct this kind of battle than the other guys, or if your side's skills are better suited to this approach.

    I have been on both the winning and losing sides for this kind of thing.
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Archer vs archer battles are pretty lame. Between miss, crit, and purge it's all random. If the gear is the same luck will matter more than cultivation.

    Personally, I can tell the difference between fighting a sage archer and fighting a demon archer, by the way combat goes. Specifically, the approach that works best for me against demons tends to make me fail against sages.

    Mind you, you outclass me, both offensively and defensively.
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Lets not even talk about kiting against 40k hp barbs or sins... there is just absolutely no point here. Unless your goal is to just harass the barb... since we all should agree getting a kill is not a possibility.

    Ok... barbs can be temporarily invincible, so we should just give up and not kite out of range and not wait for their turtles or whatever else to wear off? I learn all sorts of things here in the forums!
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ok... barbs can be temporarily invincible, so we should just give up and not kite out of range and not wait for their turtles or whatever else to wear off? I learn all sorts of things here in the forums!

    Unlike you... I can't fist a 40k hp full jade barb to death with a +5 claw ALONE.
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ya no sanc has full +11-+12 DoT drakeflamed archers and in map pvp the competent ones kite each other like mad and time imune pots/skills for the time they're in range.

    Full dot twin drake archer should be doing 3-6k average damange on non jade light armor. Considering the gear... its fair to assume they have at least 12-14k hp from armor refines. Archer on archer has about a 20-25% miss rate on each other with average accuracy and evasion. So it'll take about 3-4 shots on average to kill each other. Unless each of the archer started the fight at max possible range... the fact of trying to kite (unless immuned) can give your oppoinent that extra shot which could very well end the battle. And if you are immuned... won't it make more sense to use the immune time to actually try to make the kill?

    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The barb will eventually drop on a crit chain+purge, the sin, GL with that.

    I can pull off maybe 10 regular attacks or 4 metal chains on a good day before charm cools down. That'll require me to do at least 4k damage per regular or 10k per metal. Pretty sure I can't crit a full jade barb with regular hits for 4k per... even if i can... the chance of me critting 10 times in a roll is 0.01%. And even if the barb is purged... not sure my metal can even do 10k crits... even if I vow and genie amp him. This is just assuming the barb is standing there. Factor in half a brain for him... its just not possible with a single archer alone.

    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Fly up, accelerate, look your untouchable. Oh and on the ground you cna antistun longer than the bm so your going to stun+freeze them first, then have geni, then have antistun again. Seriously your jokeing right?

    How about this... since you have an archer. Go try that with a decent named BM on your server. And then come back and tell me how it works out. Or if you are a BM... do you really expect something like that to work on you?
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Unlike you... I can't fist a 40k hp full jade barb to death with a +5 claw ALONE.


    Full dot twin drake archer should be doing 3-6k average damange on non jade light armor. Considering the gear... its fair to assume they have at least 12-14k hp from armor refines. Archer on archer has about a 20-25% miss rate on each other with average accuracy and evasion. So it'll take about 3-4 shots on average to kill each other. Unless each of the archer started the fight at max possible range... the fact of trying to kite (unless immuned) can give your oppoinent that extra shot which could very well end the battle. And if you are immuned... won't it make more sense to use the immune time to actually try to make the kill?

    Way to pull a fleuri and try to make this into turn based pvp! And last I checked yes saying "entering range only under imune" means your trying to kill under imune :o and unless the archer is special ofc you start from max range...


    I can pull off maybe 10 regular attacks or 4 metal chains on a good day before charm cools down. That'll require me to do at least 4k damage per regular or 10k per metal. Pretty sure I can't crit a full jade barb with regular hits for 4k per... even if i can... the chance of me critting 10 times in a roll is 0.01%. And even if the barb is purged... not sure my metal can even do 10k crits... even if I vow and genie amp him. This is just assuming the barb is standing there. Factor in half a brain for him... its just not possible with a single archer alone.

    It kinda is since a barb cant have 40k hp and full JoSD's they cap at about 30k with jades and full +12 +10 jade is more like 20k


    How about this... since you have an archer. Go try that with a decent named BM on your server. And then come back and tell me how it works out. Or if you are a BM... do you really expect something like that to work on you?

    Unless bm's magicly have the ability to stun while moveing yes, It forces the bm to open with OI lets you get the first stun in any matchup and lets you badge+drop away for even more kiteing, any 1/2 decent archer will be near untouchable vs mele in the air

    Seriously you should just wed fleuri already
    I give up on beign a blademaster. Gonna go wave my tranny **** around and pew pew.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Way to pull a fleuri and try to make this into turn based pvp! And last I checked yes saying "entering range only under imune" means your trying to kill under imune :o and unless the archer is special ofc you start from max range...

    So its turn based pvp because I know the extent of an archer's damage... and its ability to survive? Any decent archer is going to be able to tell you how much damage he can deal against each of the respective armor/builds and how much damage he can take from various weapons. Unlike you and fleuri... I actually know how much an r9 bow hits against other archers... and how much the same r9 bow will hit against light armor... no need for me to calculate anything.

    Kiting in an archer vs archer battle is pointless period. Nothing gets accomplished. a Lucky crit can end the battle before anyone realize whats going on.

    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It kinda is since a barb cant have 40k hp and full JoSD's they cap at about 30k with jades and full +12 +10 jade is more like 20k

    Care to find me an archer that can actually solo a cata barb?

    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Unless bm's magicly have the ability to stun while moveing yes, It forces the bm to open with OI lets you get the first stun in any matchup and lets you badge+drop away for even more kiteing, any 1/2 decent archer will be near untouchable vs mele in the air

    And any archer in the air will not be able to kill a BM thats on the ground. And any BM smart enough will not be chasing an archer in the air.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So its turn based pvp because I know the extent of an archer's damage... and its ability to survive? Any decent archer is going to be able to tell you how much damage he can deal against each of the respective armor/builds and how much damage he can take from various weapons. Unlike you and fleuri... I actually know how much an r9 bow hits against other archers... and how much the same r9 bow will hit against light armor... no need for me to calculate anything.

    Kiting in an archer vs archer battle is pointless period. Nothing gets accomplished. a Lucky crit can end the battle before anyone realize whats going on.

    Right so you leave your entire fight up to luck. fun stuff? I'm shure decent archers dont do everything they can to stack the odds in their favor or move out of range to let charm tick or anything like that (kiteing), they certainly wouldent set up a situation where they could stun 1st or force their oponent to burn their imunes first. they just plant thier feet and fire away!


    Care to find me an archer that can actually solo a cata barb?

    Already said what I'm going tt say on this...lucky crit chain + purge = dead fuzzy


    And any archer in the air will not be able to kill a BM thats on the ground. And any BM smart enough will not be chasing an archer in the air.

    if the bm dosent follow you grats, you just got to cool off all your skills for free and can Sta>aim low>drop to continue the fight at your leisure haveing scored the 1st stun.

    For somone who's thuper pro you tend to overlook really simple and effective tricks. Or are you being intentionaly obtuse for the sake of your ego?

    Your also oddly contradictory, "I'm amazingly geared and can one shot everything!...unless its also rank 9 with similar gear, then I'm either a 1 shot or cant kill it"

    So either your full of **** about your gear, or are full of **** about your skill level, or both.

    inb4Ihavearank9bowandknowwhatI'mdoingandnobodyelsecouldpossiblyhavedoneendgamepvporknowhowtodomath.
    I give up on beign a blademaster. Gonna go wave my tranny **** around and pew pew.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Right so you leave your entire fight up to luck. fun stuff? I'm shure decent archers dont do everything they can to stack the odds in their favor or move out of range to let charm tick or anything like that (kiteing), they certainly wouldent set up a situation where they could stun 1st or force their oponent to burn their imunes first. they just plant thier feet and fire away!

    Looks like I am not the only archer who think luck matters...
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Archer vs archer battles are pretty lame. Between miss, crit, and purge it's all random. If the gear is the same luck will matter more than cultivation.


    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Already said what I'm going tt say on this...lucky crit chain + purge = dead fuzzy

    Yea... you and flerui all can say whatever you guys want. Ever do it yourself... nope. Seem it done... nope. Yea... just a whole lot of assumption and talk.

    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    if the bm dosent follow you grats, you just got to cool off all your skills for free and can Sta>aim low>drop to continue the fight at your leisure haveing scored the 1st stun.

    I may be giving sanc BMs too much credit assuming that they are just as smart as HT BMs.


    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    For somone who's thuper pro you tend to overlook really simple and effective tricks. Or are you being intentionaly obtuse for the sake of your ego?

    Your also oddly contradictory, "I'm amazingly geared and can one shot everything!...unless its also rank 9 with similar gear, then I'm either a 1 shot or cant kill it"

    If I am r9... and I can one shot half of the server. Won't it make sense that other r9 can one shot me... considering I am a 3 vit light armor? Or are you assuming that I am the only r9 on my server?

    A fair assumption is weapon > armor for anyone. If my weapon can't get through someone's armor... chances are their weapon will be even better refined/sharded. If that happens... it is more then likely that their weapon will be able to get through my armor. Its being realistic... not idealistic.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    On a side note, 40k HP cata build barbs that are sharded pure jades are perfectly logical assuming +12 refines: http://pwcalc.com/32ec343021fe1a0d

    Carry on. b:cute
  • Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary
    Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    truekossy wrote: »
    On a side note, 40k HP cata build barbs that are sharded pure jades are perfectly logical assuming +12 refines: http://pwcalc.com/32ec343021fe1a0d

    Carry on. b:cute

    well played >.>

    @ Kiyoshi: So what your saying is that you really have no support for anything you say aside from "Ihasrank9bow" Your argueing that archers dont kite, ever, even vs other rank 9's that can one shot them. Thats like saying "I dont need to take cover I can stop this bullet with my face"

    Every player with half a brain kites in pvp when its needed even meles.

    And seriously if you have that much trouble with bm's...lol
    I give up on beign a blademaster. Gonna go wave my tranny **** around and pew pew.

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