Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon)

Quilue - Sanctuary

Fear not! Fantasy R9 Ruvil is here to protect you from forum turned-based PK!

KedgeSniper - Lost City

why would a sin try to force stealth in melee range.. he already got on your face..

I had rather wings of grace < wingspan(demon) for shield and get away.. <<


Or this is a scenario that the sin is 1V3 and he was trying to kill the barb while you Were super smart to run in melee range and stop him from stealth!

P.s. better off open zhen on the sin even if he stealth.. he be a nice target.

Quilue - Sanctuary

At melee range against a sin it would have to be alacrity or a genie skill IMO...WoG will mess you up because of its long channel time of 1s. Any disable will go through before you get to cast WoG in time. I've had this experience many times against clerics and wizards. With melees you have a range advantage, but not when a sin ports into your face.

I remember this PK vid of some BM vs Cheze (think it was Cheze vs Nykage) where Cheze used sleep to prevent the BM's Roar. Sin's sleep only has 0.2s less channel time than Roar, and yet he pulls it off multiple times. With WoG's 1s channel vs Deep Sting's 0.4s chan I think any competent sin would be able to stop it. WoG is really only good used preemptively IMO.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

At melee range against a sin it would have to be alacrity or a genie skill IMO...WoG will mess you up because of its long channel time of 1s. Any disable will go through before you get to cast WoG in time. I've had this experience many times against clerics and wizards. With melees you have a range advantage, but not when a sin ports into your face.

I remember this PK vid of some BM vs Cheze (think it was Cheze vs Nykage) where Cheze used sleep to prevent the BM's Roar. Sin's sleep only has 0.2s less channel time than Roar, and yet he pulls it off multiple times. With WoG's 1s channel vs Deep Sting's 0.4s chan I think any competent sin would be able to stop it. WoG is really only good used preemptively IMO.

b:lipcurl They both cost the same.. But k .. << I had rather faith than any of them anyways(drop from air/move away/immune pot/fap at sins face).. save the spark for either aim low or any of above.

Either way.. pretty dumb for a sin to force stealth in melee range in 1v1 situation. AGAINST AN ARCHER.. cause someone will post.. What about xx class.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

But maybe i'm misunderstanding and you mean something else. Dont think i ever used Winged Pledge and got a "SURPRISE" back when i was sage 2 years ago tho.

I think the nub means that cause of its channel time... it'll still hit the sin AFTER he force stealth. Which is already stupid in the first place.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

They try to force stealth when I am channelling it.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

why would a sin try to force stealth in melee range.. he already got on your face..

This is fleuri we're talking about... hes always backed up by a whole squad of archers and what seems like a horde of venos. The SINGLE attacking sin probably just realize the horde of fleuri fanboys is descending upon him and tries to escape.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is fleuri we're talking about... hes always backed up by a whole squad of archers and what seems like a horde of venos. The SINGLE attacking sin probably just realize the horde of fleuri fanboys is descending upon him and tries to escape.

i loled.. And still.. you havent say why sage benefits better from atack lv than demon or what you meant with it o.O
I see it as a mutual benefit.

Azura - Lost City

I had never seen this guide. I just wanted to say I am jealous of devoted's writing skills. Totally love your style. I bet devoted would be happy to know that even though there are not many new archers anymore the few left mostly go demon b:laugh

(yes, I know the guide is from 2009)

Quilue - Sanctuary

In your example:

http://pwcalc.com/8e76f64700f59576

This is your sage ^ Raw passive adds
Physical Atk.
14618-19702

http://pwcalc.com/8f6d5687a789aa3b

This is your Demon ^ Raw Passive adds
Physical Atk.
14154-19076

Same percentage applied to two different base damage simply yields a different number. Sage gets more raw damage add from attack levels.

Say opponent has no def levels,

90 attack levels add 15444. to the Sage's base damage, but add 14953.5 to a Demon's base damage. So the Sage has 1035.5 more base damage compared to the Demon. That's all there is to it.

Obviously this number will decrease as you fight opponents with def levels.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

In your example:

Same percentage applied to two different base damage simply yields a different number. Sage gets more raw damage add from attack levels.

Say opponent has no def levels,

90 attack levels add 15444. to the Sage's base damage, but add 14953.5 to a Demon's base damage. So the Sage has 1035.5 more base damage compared to the Demon. That's all there is to it.

Obviously this number will decrease as you fight opponents with def levels.

even though.. i understand the main idea your trying to say.. I still find it almost not that huge of a deal (damage wise I still see just 1k advantage).. And that be like 600-900ish more damage depending on whoever you hit.

I know that 100 atack lv against def lv 0 .. Its like having no defense and will receive more damage overall... But I feel 90 atack lv on both sides will not make a difference as 0 atack lv if both are hitting the same target. b:surrender

b:cry Even though i like math.. i hate it sometimes.

truekossy

Think of it this way. Whoever has a higher raw base damage gets their advantage increased by attack level by the same amount.


Say one guy has 100 damage while the other has 200.
At 0 attack levels, 100 vs 200, it's a 100 damage difference. (base difference)
At 50 attack levels, 150 vs 300, it's a 150 damage difference (50% increase)
At 100 attack levels, 200 vs 400, it's a 200 damage difference (100% increase)

As you can see, the higher the attack levels would go, the greater the difference would become. So imagine what would happen if, say, both the archers in your calcs sharded up with 24 DoTs, put on a Jones Bless, and ditched the R8 ring for a Sky Cover. That would give both archers an attack level of 129 and so, whatever base advantage the sage archer had on the demon archer would have to be multiplied by 129% (assuming a 0 defense level target, of course) for your comparison to hold true in your final conclusions.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

why would a sin try to force stealth in melee range.. he already got on your face..

Because he is dying and I am not.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

At melee range against a sin it would have to be alacrity or a genie skill

Genie skill is usually a given. But there are other possibilities.

Remember: I do not 1v1 pk. My "pvp" experiences are mostly TW (and mostly against roughly comparable factions. Getting rolled in 5 minutes means it's over.)

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary

I would be suprised too if a LA class stood there and tanked a interval stacked sin. Ofc I would be suprisded if a man fell 40 storys into the pavement in front of me as well.

Hmmm

Anfisa - Lost City

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is fleuri we're talking about... hes always backed up by a whole squad of archers and what seems like a horde of venos. The SINGLE attacking sin probably just realize the horde of fleuri fanboys is descending upon him and tries to escape.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Remember: I do not 1v1 pk.

Confirmed.

Joking aside, in this case, I'm not sure why the sage version of winged pledge matters. If you are just trying to knock the sin out of stealth right after they force, most skills seem like they would do the same thing regardless of culti. Imo, since this is TW, wingspan would be better as the aoe could knockout other sins that are possibly nearby. And maybe a metal skill would be better in case they get out of the 5 meter range while you're casting. But then again, I'm not sure how skills/attacks affect sins during force stealth cast time, so my points may be invalid.

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary

Anfisa - Lost City wrote: »

Confirmed.

Joking aside, in this case, I'm not sure why the sage version of winged pledge matters. If you are just trying to knock the sin out of stealth right after they force, most skills seem like they would do the same thing regardless of culti. Imo, since this is TW, wingspan would be better as the aoe could knockout other sins that are possibly nearby. And maybe a metal skill would be better in case they get out of the 5 meter range while you're casting. But then again, I'm not sure how skills/attacks affect sins during force stealth cast time, so my points may be invalid.

Unless you stop the channel of stealth the sin will still vanish however w/e skill you are channeling at the time will also finish casting

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Unless you stop the channel of stealth the sin will still vanish however w/e skill you are channeling at the time will also finish casting

This ^

I've successfully BoA'd a sin that stealthed and I ended up killing 2 with it lols.

For sins I typically stick to WoG they try to stun. Then they either force stealth/3spark or I hit them with wingspan. If they stealth start over or detect pot and they die. If 3spark I cancel wingspan, alacrity afew metres away and stun-->TS-->LS. If I have the fortune of catching one out of stealth targeting another opponent its always Stun-->TS. In fact, most things are stun-->TS-->LS lol. Especially in TW (Barbs, Seekers, BMs, end game wizards, clerics with plume shell, sins, other archers). Maybe throw sage frost in there if its a barb.

Anfisa - Lost City

Ok, I guess I should have rephrased it a bit as I knew skill channeling would finish. While they are channeling force stealth, can you target them or does your skill need to start channeling before they do? Also, why use sage frost arrow? I think devoted's point on that is still valid. And since this is TW, why are you targeting a barb?

truekossy

You can target the fish while they're channeling or before. You have to interrupt the channel though to stop them from vanishing.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

truekossy wrote: »

You can target the fish while they're channeling or before.
You have to interrupt the channel though to stop them from vanishing.

I cannot begin to imagine what would be going through an assassin's mind, in tw.

But throatcut takes longer to channel (than winged pledge does).

(And, p.s. I do not always win against assassins. Especially not when they out level me, outgear me, and stalk me. But I do not always lose, either.)

Anfisa - Lost City

Still, why sage winged pledge?

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Anfisa - Lost City wrote: »

Still, why sage winged pledge?

cause Sage is OP. They even have mana burn! Beat that~

truekossy

Anfisa - Lost City wrote: »

Still, why sage winged pledge?

Because since it's spammable, it's one of the better ways for him to try and interrupt the shadow escape channel or get in that extra hit while the sin's trying to stealth. Granted, a smart sin would use a disable or defensive move first to make sure they can survive long enough to shadow escape, but that's not always available/applicable in the TW scenarios Fleuri's used to.

In regular PK, on the other hand, none of that would apply because odds are you'd either be dead, you'd have been far more focused on keeping yourself alive than killing the sin/keeping it from going back to stealth, or the sin would pretty much be dead already.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

truekossy wrote: »

That would be what we call a Yulk.

*goes back to popcorn*

I lol'd.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Anfisa - Lost City wrote: »

Ok, I guess I should have rephrased it a bit as I knew skill channeling would finish. While they are channeling force stealth, can you target them or does your skill need to start channeling before they do? Also, why use sage frost arrow? I think devoted's point on that is still valid. And since this is TW, why are you targeting a barb?

Sage frost is still water damage and, though there are better things to use chi on, I have found myself with an abundance of chi lately. Especially since I tend to be on a defense squad in my new faction.

Quite often I find a barb will invoke through the casters first couple hits, so the barb will be the last one alive in the cata squad (I or others having killed their squadmates). If the barb manages to get out of range of a wizard with a rush (face it Wizzies are slow), frost arrow is still a better slow than Great Cyclone and if Undine is still up it hits pretty hard. I would much rather TS it and move on if I were on an attack squad though. Let the cleric/Wizzy handle it.

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage frost is still water damage and, though there are better things to use chi on, I have found myself with an abundance of chi lately. Especially since I tend to be on a defense squad in my new faction.

Quite often I find a barb will invoke through the casters first couple hits, so the barb will be the last one alive in the cata squad (I or others having killed their squadmates). If the barb manages to get out of range of a wizard with a rush (face it Wizzies are slow), frost arrow is still a better slow than Great Cyclone and if Undine is still up it hits pretty hard. I would much rather TS it and move on if I were on an attack squad though. Let the cleric/Wizzy handle it.

Or you could use aim low on the fuzzy...

Anfisa - Lost City

@true: The channel is only .7 seconds and winged pledge total time is 1.4 seconds, so would have to cast it and hope they force at the right time to interrupt. Once they start the cast time, I would prefer a skill that takes about the same time has their cast to knock them out of stealth afterwards. I guess the spam is decent for damage without the min range half damage ****. Still not seeing the whole "surprise sins" factor Fleuri was talking about. The other points I agree on.

@Vindis: Your wizards have gush which they spam, glacial snare with the best slow, hailstorm, and even BIDS for a slow. If the barb got out of their range, he probably got out of yours too unless you are positioned a lot further back than them. Also its not like wizards have blink or holy path to catch up. For your excess of chi and considering the barb is the only one left in this case, why not triple spark and use metal?

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Because he is dying and I am not.

With your gear it'll be you dying. Pretty sure I have a few thousand more hp than you and the defense level to match. A sin can stealth gank me and kill me before i can hit the domain/expel button.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Genie skill is usually a given. But there are other possibilities.

Remember: I do not 1v1 pk. My "pvp" experiences are mostly TW (and mostly against roughly comparable factions. Getting rolled in 5 minutes means it's over.)

It seems that you are always expecting to have back up while your attacker always come alone. Do you never fight against a full 80 or something.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

i loled.. And still.. you havent say why sage benefits better from atack lv than demon or what you meant with it o.O
I see it as a mutual benefit.

I just look at your calc again... why do you have 55 unused points and no arrows. Put those in and demon comes out to 15980-21297 and sage becomes 16465-21944. Factor in 100 attack level (for ease of calculation)... demon will be 31960-42594 and 32930-43888.

That's a 970-1294 difference with the attack levels... buffs/shards might help this number a bit more. But then again... just how many sage advocates can afford a set of full r9s.

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary

So demons DPS dosent get amplified at all by attack level now?

Pretty sure QS+100 attack levels > 1/42th more max phys attack

truekossy

That's true if it procs. However, I think Kiyoshi's point was about the base difference. Pretty sure it's considered common knowledge that when it comes to DPS and burst damage, demon will win hands down.

That said, sage does have the potential for a good bit higher damage if they can score a high-end crit with a skill that has a weapon% modifier in the damage it deals but that's going into a different topic and would just be arguing semantics at that point anyways.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary wrote: »

So demons DPS dosent get amplified at all by attack level now?

Pretty sure QS+100 attack levels > 1/42th more max phys attack

So what... you expect to run around with quickshot always on? Unless they change the game... its 50% chance. What about the other 50% that it doesn't proac? Waste of 1s channel and .6s cast if it doesn't proac.

Pretty sure (when quickshot doesn't proac) sage can fire off AT LEAST 1.5 arrow in the time it takes demon to fire off 1 quickshot. +50% damage (20k) > +2.5k damage... if you really want to play this game.