Demon QS (not as great as I thought)

angellicdeity wrote: »

This argument is flawed.

For you to have this attack rate as a bow archer says you dont have full rank 9 or comparable G15 nirvana. Full rank 9's will deal more amounts of damage than you will with the extra attack levels gained from a full set, as well as have higher defenses.

Yes?

For that experiment i was using a +5 R8 bow, and Joshcja was using low quality gear also. So, yes, not only was I not using full rank 9, I was using absolutely no Nebulous gear.

Supposedly, we were testing whether demon bell meant that I could not break through his defenses. He was saying that demon stun plus demon quickshot too dangerous for him. And his point there -- that demon quickshot's increased crit chance still worked when he had anti-stun up -- has truth in it. But demon stun plus demon quick shot would take longer than the time he needed to close from out of range and stun. And the test setup we were using (with no apothecaries) meant that I only had a chance to anti-stun his rush once every three minutes (or longer if he did not time his attack for precisely when alacrity went off cooldown).

So, from my point of view, mostly we were just wasting time, and not testing anything useful.

angellicdeity wrote: »

You must be fully decked out in interval gear (HH99 ornaments, OHT crafted, etc) of lower grade.

Yes, I was wearing full interval gear.

angellicdeity wrote: »

Basically with all gears equal Demon Quickshot is what makes BM's more cautious.

This concept of yours conflicts with the things he was telling me.

Also, to repeat: my second win used no normal attacks (and no R9 gear, and low refines, and low dexterity, and I had no damage increasing genie skills). And, yes, he was not sufficiently cautious then. But keep in mind that I never approached perfection, either -- I was a comedy of errors.

Specifically: he was chasing me, I used an anti-stun skill (I forget which one I used, but I only have 2) and let him catch up to me. I was using sage winged pledge, and he had neither demon bell up (I believe he forgot about that in the chase or maybe it would have put him further behind me -- keep in mind also that the chase allowed my genie to cool down) nor physical marrow. He might have had magic marrow up. I do not think I sparked because he always left when I sparked.

Edit: Meanwhile, if you have a rank 9 bow, I think you would use very different tactics. If his defenses were too high to end the battle easily, then instead of trying to stun him with one of his buffs down, I think you would be trying to purge his buffs. If you are using normal attacks (or instant take aim) kiting will be much easier than if you are using stunning arrow (or aim low). In part, of course, the attacks themselves are quicker. But, also, cooldowns are much easier to manage. And you do not have to worry about cancelling (which was a big problem for me, since hitting escape was not cancelling my attack).

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

the only think i really want to comment on is this:

A lot of demon archers do not exceed 1.05 even with demon quickshot, according to fleuri. That archer would be 4aps with deicide. How many lvl 100 demon archers are not 5aps?

That's a good point, many demon archers are 5aps sparked, which means they have a 0.95 attack rate with a rank8 bow (1.36 attack rate with quickshot), and a 0.90 or 0.85 attack rate with various other bows (1.3 or 1.24 attack rate with quick shot).

But, even there, if you are counting the total attacks that a person could land on Joshcja during his exposure time, how does that work out? He uses leap back and leap forward to come in (so 2.13 seconds to approach a demon archer and holy path to leave, which is another 2.13 seconds of exposure). And, I was not using any apothecaries, which means that every other battle I had one opportunity to attack for the full 4.3 seconds (actually 4.5 seconds since I am sage -- though through in some additional time for decision making and ping and attack cancels). This meant that his smack could always have been cool when my alacrity was, but lets ignore that..

Or he used falling to leave. I do not know how long that takes to get 32m distance?

If you have 4.3 seconds and demon quickshot and you have 5aps demon gear how many attacks can you land on him in 4.3 seconds? Me, when I had that much time, I could land 4 attacks.

And please do not talk about stunning him. When he was not stun immune and I could attack him, he died. Afterward he told me he used some apothecaries, which made me mad -- they were probably vacuities, but maybe they were something else, idk.

If he jumps and runs in, and your alacrity is on cooldown, you should be able to kite him pretty well. if he runs in with bodhi on him, you'll obviously have some more trouble.

You count exposure time as the total time it would take him to enter your range and get back out of it. In such a short interval, i'm fairly certain a sage archer does better(more dmg) than a demon archer, at least with normal shots. Starting off with quickshot, at max interval, would take too much time, and even if it procs, the next shot would probably hit him when he's already in your minimum range.

From what joshcja is saying, he apparently expects archers to stun him, quickshot him and then stand there shooting while he flies/sprints into their range and stuns them.

Also, Demon Aim Low stuns from time to time. Stun > QS > Aim Low > pew pew would get 7-8 shots in, with nearly 50% critrate. Chances of all that happening, though, are only slightly above 11%.

However, in my personal experience using quickshot to kill bms does in fact work (also on bms who are not mediocre, rare as they are) Once you get a bm properly set up to use quickshot (i.e. stun the guy while he's falling, quickshot, follow up with take aim if qs procs) It works amazingly well.

_______________________________

In group pvp, it's also the best DDing you can do against people who dont have overwhelming physical defense. We can probably all agree that quickshot, if it procs, gives you the highest dps you're going to get on an archer, unless your target's phys dmg reduction doubles his mag dmg reduction value. I also use it to waste a psychic's skill reflect.

I thought Demon QS was more noticeable in larger scale PvP, where you have people (hopefully) inflicting longer stuns/freezes for you and you can just shoot.

I think the best time for QS to work is probably when a BM is below you and near ground level, so he can't drop out of range quickly, and he can't float up quickly either. Even if the BM drops and takes half damage, continued shooting can have a good chance to proc purge so it's not all that useless to keep shooting.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

1st off.. Bms with decent gear (nv/rank9) and high refines will most likely kill you or be hard to kill.

Yes, yes... but I mostly fight in TW, where a BM with full rank 9+11 gear was easier to kill than Josh was 1v1, wearing low quality gear. Granted, I use different gear myself in TW (I use a different weapon and I wear +hp ornaments instead of interval/pdef ornaments). But we are also talking different kinds of hard to kill. People mostly cannot afford to stunlock me in TW and when they do stun me me they usually cannot afford to kite me and come back when my anti-stun has worn off. That totally changes the flow of battle and sometimes gives me the upper hand even if I were being ganked by multiple blademasters.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

2nd off.. They have lots of crow control and 5.0 makes things fall apart easy. If they know how to leap and stun, its pretty much over.. Specially when they run occult ice and other stuff like that. Some even use the anti metal genie skill.

Yes, if we are talking 1v1, where I am worthless, and if we are talking him using apothecaries when I am not using apothecaries, and if we are talking me with a genie which was not built for 1v1? Yes, totally -- that was HARD.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

3rd off.. Qs is not meant to be a miracle skill that kills all classes. Like i have said before.. all demon archers brag of it cause its pretty good and does make killing X person easier.

Yes, its a good skill, but it's a skill that needs something like six or seven seconds of uninterrupted attacks before it pulls ahead of sage. In essence, when it procs, you get an extra attack, and that extra attack arrives at the end of its duration. But if you have channelling gear it might get better. It probably gets better with full rank 9 armor -- you might get 2 extra shots then?

Edit: Here is an attempted comparison of sage with interval tome and full rank 9 gear (0.83 attack rate) with demon with the same kind of gear. I am assuming that they are both also wearing their general's badge, which gives them -13% channelling, so quick shot takes 0.87 seconds channelling time. I am also assuming that normal attack consists of 0.4 seconds after the attack (we have a maximum attack rate of 2.5 attacks per second, I believe?) and that the rest of our normal attack time happens before the attack. This means that if quickshot procs the first normal attack will occur 1.31 seconds after starting the quickshot, and the quickshot proc ends 6.87 seconds after starting the quickshot.

Numbers are time, in seconds, from the start of the attack sequence.

Sage, 7 attacks:
0.8 2 3.2 4.4 5.6 6.8 8

Demon, 8 attacks (proc'd):
0.87 1.31 2.5 3.7 4.89 6.08 7.27 8.46

Does anyone feel like checking my math, and my assumptions?

The bold attacks are attacks where the timing is has been accellerated because of the quickshot proc. (I am also assuming that you just have to start your attack during the accellerated attack rate proc to gain advantage from it.)

That said, note that the demon gains an initiative advantage on the first normal attack, when quickshot procs. And for all that people in forums dismiss sage initiative advantages, I think that initiative is a big deal. Initiative advantage winds up being time when you cannot be attacked.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

4th off.. E-fights scenarios are kinda lame.. You can come up with any scenarios possible.. but unless you actually practice it in real PVP. (Not Tw) Theres no much to talk about.

I see what you did there!

b:chuckle

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

5th off.. Mass PVP doesnt really matter what class you are.. What matters is, what gear you have.

Ok. So, I have all +5 armor (except my sky demon's pearl is +4 and my rings are unrefined), and I sometimes can survive assassin ganks from level 102 assassins (not always! sometimes they get me) and +10 weapons. Granted this is TW, but... for example, last friday there were only four of us: myself and another blademaster from my faction and two assassins from the other faction. I managed to kill both of the assassins right about the time they killed the blademaster, after being stunned. I do not think I could have done that solo, and I do not think that that situation could ever have happened in 1v1.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

6th off.. Be Sage or Demon. Either way, you will need rank9 nowadays. b:thanks

*sighs* I cannot disagree with you on this issue.

Vasilisk - Harshlands wrote: »

QS is not "OP", idk who told you this. Demon QS just one of the best PVP skill for archer. And 2 more attack - it's awesome, awesome addon, if your opponent not barb, lol.

QS gives you one extra attack, for every case I have examined.

I speculated that it might be two extra attacks, but I cannot find any practical cases where its two extra attacks.

During the early stages of the quick shot proc it's an "early attack" which is matched a fraction of a second later by sage. If you can keep attacking for the whole quick shot proc time, it turns into an extra free attack. Also, if the battle ends early it might be an extra free attack, or it might not, depending on precisely when your shooting stops.

Finally, when quickshot does not proc, a similar sort of "early attack" advantage goes to the sage archer. I think, on average, you do get higher total DPS from quickshot (but I have not worked through the math to prove it so), but I believe that your total DPS advantage works out to something smaller than a free attack every 10 seconds.

The problem is that if you are wearing any sort of interval gear, quickshot's base speed is the speed of the slowest crossbow shot. With channeling rings it becomes the speed of a slow bow shot. So when your quickshot does not proc you have still taken longer to shoot than a sage with interval gear will have taken.

In some battles, like when you are fighing 1v1 and you both engage in not-very-conclusive kiting of each other, the proc rate on quickshot can be not too big of a deal. In this kind of situation, quite often on a failed proc the battle does not end and you can just try again. However, in other kinds of battles, where time matters, the proc rate on quickshot can become a significant issue.

Vasilisk - Harshlands wrote: »

Also. Lightning Strike never miss - that this means? - You can deal damage to other archer after his Condor.

Yes, that is nice. I happen to have another way to do that, but it does have its limitations. That said, so far the limitation on that mode of damage delivery has hurt me far worse when fighting another sage archer than when fighting a demon archer. And demons have Lightning Strike! Anyways, no, I am not going to spell out how I am doing this -- its limitations are quite real and I like that most of you apparently do not know how I can fight.

Vasilisk - Harshlands wrote: »

If you are using QS as starter skill, it's can turn to 2 free attacks.

I am not sure if you are telling me the truth.

If you give me a pwcalc url for the archer, I can run the comparison between sage normal attack and demon quickshot proc followed by normal attack and see if your claim holds up.

Or if you have observations which show my assumptions about how normal attack work to be wrong, perhaps you could give us the details of your observations? (I would like to have enough detail to be able to attempt to reproduce your observations.)

Or, if you want to do the math yourself, could you give us your timings for the attack sequences?

Meanwhile, note that when you use quickshot you fall behind sage archer normal attack, the proce makes up for that but on average, in the cases I inspected, you do not gain a full attack. (You gain a full attack when you both ignore the chance of quickshot not procing and when you also are able to continue attacking for either the full amount of time or when the combat ends on a demon attack.)

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I am not sure if you are telling me the truth.

If you give me a pwcalc url for the archer, I can run the comparison between sage normal attack and demon quickshot proc followed by normal attack and see if your claim holds up.

Or if you have observations which show my assumptions about how normal attack work to be wrong, perhaps you could give us the details of your observations? (I would like to have enough detail to be able to attempt to reproduce your observations.)

Or, if you want to do the math yourself, could you give us your timings for the attack sequences?

Meanwhile, note that when you use quickshot you fall behind sage archer normal attack, the proce makes up for that but on average, in the cases I inspected, you do not gain a full attack. (You gain a full attack when you both ignore the chance of quickshot not procing and when you also are able to continue attacking for either the full amount of time or when the combat ends on a demon attack.)

You know. I keep wonderign why your finding average DPS in a situation where only burst damage matters.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

It doesn't matter how long your first hit takes, what matters is how much damage you can deal during its 6s of quicken, because that is what counts in whether someone's charm gets to tick in time or not. That's why it doesn't make sense counting Quickshot's channel time.

Remember the days before Jone's Bless + cheap rank? +10 Lunar Bow, 14k base damage, scores 3 digits on well-geared, fully buffed wizards no lie.

There is almost no way in hell you can kill that wizard if you just auto attack unless you can get off a Purge. To have Demon Quickshot proc combined with increased crit from stun or STA means you're at a much better position to blow through that wizard's charm in time. That was the value of being Demon and having Demon Quickshot.

This is what sage archers don't understand. The argument that "my sage interval > demon quickshot interval" really doesn't matter. For sage interval to be greater means you sacrificed gear slots for lower-grade and resistance interval gear.

They like to use the argument that sages use different gear end-game to be effective... Well last I checked full rank 9 damage provides the same benefit regardless of being demon or sage. The only thing demons have going for them are skills which give them potentially MUCH higher burst damage.



And this becomes important when facing other people decked out in full rank 9 sharded with Jades an fully refined. Rank 9 for archers isn't a magic ticket to becomming overpowered like it is for assassins.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually, I imagine you would have figured that out if you had bothered to read everything in my post.

Anyways, I mentioned DPS because I was responding to someone that thought quickshot gives 2 extra attacks. And, since the only way I can think of to get 2 extra attacks from quickshot is to have it proc twice in sequence, I acknowledged that potential interpretation of his point: he could be sort of right if we were talking about DPS.

Meanwhile, DPH is a form of burst damage. And, quickshot's chance of giving you an extra attack can only be a decisive factor in a battle where you already had a plausible chance of succeeding.

No I mean every time you mention QS you go on aout its cast time.

Isnt it pretty wonderfull that demon QS can focus roughly 10 seconds of damage into the 6 second burst after it procs? Stacked with crit procs and debuffs you can fit a lot more damage into the 10 second gap that is charm cool down (STA+EP+10% crit at 60% aim low and tick with QS for example).

Isnt the most common timeing for burst damage skills right at 51-60% hp? (At least for experianced pvpers) In pvp/TW the only "time" that matters is, time to close/time till closed on, and charm tick.

So try considering it as "focused dps" rather than "raised dps"

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

No I mean every time you mention QS you go on aout its cast time.

0.6 seconds? yes? do you think we can ignore that?

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Isnt it pretty wonderfull that demon QS can focus roughly 10 seconds of damage into the 6 second burst after it procs?

If you can get that full six seconds something else is going on. Either your opponent is being clumsy or you are using control skills or something. But, even then, that cast time means you had 5.4 seconds to launch your attacks and best case you will be getting 7 seconds of damage.

And, typical case, you lose half of an attack (because attacks are lumpy, though the exact amount of an attack you lose depends on some other specifics.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Stacked with crit procs and debuffs you can fit a lot more damage into the 10 second gap that is charm cool down (STA+EP+10% crit at 60% aim low and tick with QS for example).

Now you are starting to mix apples and oranges. And we could sort them out but I am not convinced that you would read my attempt to do so, so... I will just mention that I think you are paying attention to some issues while ignoring others.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Isnt the most common timeing for burst damage skills right at 51-60% hp? (At least for experianced pvpers) In pvp/TW the only "time" that matters is, time to close/time till closed on, and charm tick.

Yes, no, sometimes. This approach is a good one but it's oversimplified and not always relevant.

Meanwhile, for the last 2 TWs, I have apparently killed no one.

b:chuckle

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

The point remains that QS with stacked effects will focus more damage into a 6 second burst than any other abilkity short of 3 spark and can be effectivly amped for even higher DPS allowing kills on targets you would never be able to down otherwise or simply createing a threat profile high enough that the oponent must take certain actions or conserve resources to counter it.

Now you are starting to get into numbers....

And you might even be right, for a six second burst. But unless you work out the specific numbers you do not actually know if you are right.

Edit:

Superficially: quickshot winds up having a ceiling of 16% dps increase for a six second attack sequence. or a 30% dps increase ceiling for a 5.4 attack sequence. Meanwhile, on the sage side you get several percentage points of extra damage on every shot and a better debuff against a high health opponent's maximum health, and a few fraction of a second advantages (which may or may not add up to 0.6 seconds).

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes, your totaly right, I need to go look up numbers to see that the sage archers 2% higher dps base and 4% higher sta make up for the 16-30% boost of QS + the 10% boost of the crit proc

The non QSing archer is totaly better in every way at burstign physical dps.

Your numbers have to be the same kinds of units before you can compare them. And percents without "percent of" are particularly misleading.

So... if you phrase your interval of time precisely, you can get "2 extra shots in the 5.4 seconds of the quickshot proc" that you would not be getting if you were using those 5.4 seconds for normal attacks. But this kind of comparison assumes that you were doing nothing in the time leading up to that 5.4 seconds. In other words, its really only valid when you assume that quickshot has been used.

But I do not think anyone has been suggesting we use sage quickshot.

So that 2 shot bonus of demon quickshot over sage quickshot when the full proc time can be used?

When you get a burst damage comparison of demon vs. sage, you have to allow that sage will probably be in the process of landing a shot when you start your demon quickshot sequence. This is not guaranteed, of course: for example, if if we were comparing unaugmented crossbows with no interval gear then quickshot takes about the same time that a normal attack takes. But most high end archers use bows with interval on them and usually their interval is higher than their channel reduction.

And if your quickshot was when your opponent's charm ticked, and this is just using normal attacks, then a hypothetical demon archer acting like a hypothetical sage archer would have ticked the opponent's charm with a normal attack and have started on the next normal attack before the other demon archer can get out of casting time from quickshot. So you never get a full 30% damage bonus even over another demon archer.

Meanwhile, if our archers were 500 dex archers, and we are talking about a typical battle (where I have made some assumptions about preparation and setup which may or may not be valid for the general case), each sage shot has an 8% base damage advantage over the demon, and demon has an extra 2% crit so that takes the sage dps advantage to about 6.5% (not that dps is entirely meaningful but it's a handy approximation for figuring burst damage over some time interval)

So now you have a specific scenario (archer with 500 dex tick's charm with quickshot, quickshot procs) which by definition happens less than half the time where a demon has something like an 10% dps advantage over the sage. But since we agree that dps is meaningless -- its actual shots that hit that matter -- and that base damage is meaningless -- crits matter too -- we should really narrow this scenario down further. We should pick gear for our archer and we should pick an opponent and their health and their class (they are sitting there for the full quickshot interval just tanking the shots? why would they do that?), and we should pick some likely actions for the opponent to be trying.

If we had enough specifics we could find probability distribution functions for survival of the two opponents in these specific situations.

But that would still be bogus because for this attack sequence to work in typical 1v1 the two opponents both have to have partially discharged genies and their apoth has to be on cooldown, or they have to both be using their genies and apoth cooldowns for other purposes. So we would need to add to our scenarios the abilities which each had which were in cooldown.

That would still bogus for a sage vs. demon comparison because of the implication that the battle that went before would be the same for the two, despite the higher base and slightly longer attack that sage has. Sometimes the two will be faced with battles which have progressed to the same point, but that's only sometimes.

Still, this would be a start, and would be a lot fairer than an utterly imaginary 30% burst damage bonus from quickshot.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ya I've honestly stopped reading your walls of text on this

lets assume the archer would fire 6 shots in 6 seconds, lets add 2

that's not how it works.

archer fires 5 shots in 5.4 seconds, let's add 2, now compare to archer shooting for 6 seconds.

it's good. you are exaggerating its goodness. not my fault you can't read.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wouldent it be an even more exagerated amp at 5.4....

I dont claim the skill omgoneshots or **** everythign that moves. I say it gives roughly 30% damage over the dureation of the attack speed buff at high interval and with skilled use can give 20% added damage over a charms tick.

Thats just how the skill is used and what it does. I would never turn down a no cost no drawback (outside fo buying the skill) 20% damage boost. On that note I cant think of anyone who would turn down a 1% boost to damage at no drawback. Hell my bm is saveing to pay 200-300 million coin for a damn rank 9 ring for a lower damage boost than QS offers.

Unless you can disprove entirely what was said above I dont see the point of this thread.

wait a second because qs (if dont was changed since i was arhcer) dont got 100% rpoc percentage, if u are unlucky u lose ~1+ hit too, when not proc. :P

that chance for +1-2 hit is the cost of the qs, dont matter in group gank but in 1vs1 that time too :P