Demon QS (not as great as I thought)

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Comments

  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Windshield is addicting. You think 35 energy is nothing. If you use it more than 2 times.. Your absolute domain is down.

    QS just a skill you can spam anytime. And doesn't affect your survivability.. i mean an archer with genie/pots on cooldown = an easy target.

    http://pwcalc.com/8e76f64700f59576

    This is your sage ^ Raw passive adds

    http://pwcalc.com/8f6d5687a789aa3b

    This is your Demon ^ Raw Passive adds

    Sage passive increases 700 more damage at +12.

    I rarely spam metals on bms with magic narrow.. You actually deal same damage just with normal atacks.
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  • Noveriot - Heavens Tear
    Noveriot - Heavens Tear Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I feel like Kedge is bringing us back onto the topic.
    We arent talking about sage v. demon, were talking about how the OP sees Wind Shield as a way to replace Demon QS so he/she can follow the sage path, which seem so appealing to him/her.

    Basically, if youre spamming Wind Shield youll be taking away from other genie skills which is much more important to your survival than the increase in dmg. It is established that hitting faster = faster kills, the reason why we have so many 5.0 BMs and what not farming Nirvana, but you cant kill if youre dead because you couldnt AD and what not.

    Were not talking about sage mastery, base dmg, or anything of that sort. Its about either going sage, and using your genie to give you a speed buff, or going demon and having a spammable skill that relieves your genie of an extra skill spam.

    This is why QS is considered so OP, because you can get the inc. attack speed without wasting valuable genie stamina and youre not triple sparking just to hit someone faster.

    /thread.
  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Noveriot - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Well, lets say youre fighting an R9 BM, with 20k HP? Say you pew pew and you use your increased sage stunning arrow for like... 3k? Probably more considering you have your own R9 weapon, right? Then you do your Lightning Shock, 6k? Then you hit your Thunderous Blast and crit them for 12k? Oh snap, you just killed them over their charm D:

    This is why I post.. Demon and Sage damage.

    I think wind shield is good when target less 30% and you just want to deal fast damage..

    Wind shield also less atack speed than QS.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »
    You know that BMs always magic marrow sage archers? They know you cant pin them down with Demon Quick Shoot so its rather safe to Marrow. You will not be hitting any dream numbers like 12k with Thunder Blast. Full or party full R9 BM with highly refined ornaments will still have around 14-15k metal defenses left after you used Thunder Shock. Its about as effective as trying to kill AA users with Thunder Blast.

    In that situation you do way more damage with Sage Take aim >.<

    <3 I said this what 3 threads ago? Glad somone actually has pvp experiance/can read

    @ yahoo....nobody mag marrows on demon archers
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    http://pwcalc.com/8e76f64700f59576

    This is your sage ^ Raw passive adds

    http://pwcalc.com/8f6d5687a789aa3b

    This is your Demon ^ Raw Passive adds

    Sage passive increases 700 more damage at +12.

    I rarely spam metals on bms with magic narrow.. You actually deal same damage just with normal atacks.

    I see a 464-626 physical damage advantage and a 265-373 fire damage advantage (before attack levels and before defenses). So that's like a 729-999 advantage on damage range, or net +4.7% damage (or a +24% bonus, if you use percents like PWE uses in most skill descriptions)... But of course everything gets complicated by the other things going on.

    And, yes, if you have a rank 9 bow, you should probably be using normal attacks on marrow'd BMs to try and increase your odds of a purge. Ironically, your metal attacks work better on unbuffed mages than on marrowed blademasters (but mages can soak one or two attacks with their elemental shell, so you need to be careful with this one).

    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    <3 I said this what 3 threads ago? Glad somone actually has pvp experiance/can read

    You were talking about using demon bell to offset your physical damage reduction from magic marrow, (but sage archers can do things to stop you from doing that, in an extended battle).
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

    You were talking about using demon bell to offset your physical damage reduction from magic marrow, (but sage archers can do things to stop you from doing that, in an extended battle).

    Actually the post was about tanking high refined sage archers with mag marrow and demon bell as they have no 0 cost damage boost for their physical DPS forceing them to rely on metal spike when a HA class is refined to a similar grade as their weapon.

    Its a pretty common tactic as it takes a while to break charm even w/o the bell proc with phys hits on a non R9 sage targeting a non R9 bm unless you burn geni/3 spark/ blood vow and all of those have either a long cooldown or a heavy requirement makeing them easy to counter.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Actually the post was about tanking high refined sage archers with mag marrow and demon bell as they have no 0 cost damage boost for their physical DPS forceing them to rely on metal spike when a HA class is refined to a similar grade as their weapon.

    If demon quickshot works, sage spark should also work.

    Specifically: stun, triple spark, something to get a bit of chi, aim low, ...

    And, if that fails because of absolute domain, do it again during genie cooldown

    Meanwhile, there are other things a sage can do to disable your demon bell (sage venomous being an example of one of them, though that only works when you do not know what to expect or when you are not coordinated enough and do not have a mana charm equipped).
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If demon quickshot works, sage spark should also work.

    Specifically: stun, triple spark, something to get a bit of chi, aim low, ...

    And, if that fails because of absolute domain, do it again during genie cooldown

    Meanwhile, there are other things a sage can do to disable your demon bell (sage venomous being an example of one of them, though that only works when you do not know what to expect or when you are not coordinated enough and do not have a mana charm equipped).

    Yes, respond with a counterarguement that was already stated in my post what part of "unless you burn geni/3 spark/ blood vow" was unclear?

    Moveing on.So your going to 3 spark then use a 1 spark skill wasteing all of your chi at once for a setup the target can geni/apoc out of? Then ofc you have no sparks, for antistun, vs a blademaster. Then your going to blow all your geni energy on AD.

    *hops off flyer counts to 15 and comes up to gut your now totaly vulnerable archer like a fish*

    Or on the ground>leap/bhodi>OI in the gap between spark and aim low (standing still on the ground with a bm within 30 meters? Ya thats a 3 second close on a flyer/run skills. less with leaps or holy path)

    So blow 399 chi your genis energy both your control skills and AD cooldown for a chance to kill if the bm totaly ignored your 7-10 seconds of setup or fire demon QS and hope for a proc. Yup, sage is totaly even here.

    Sage venomus can be countered by a single MP pot while also getting a full mp bar, 5k mp food ftw. Seriously nobody mp drains in pvp because its damn near useless.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yes, respond with a counterarguement that was already stated in my post what part of "unless you burn geni/3 spark/ blood vow" was unclear?

    So, ok, yes, you probably did say something like that... my memory for arguments from weeks ago in other threads is not all that precise.
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Moveing on.So your going to 3 spark then use a 1 spark skill wasteing all of your chi at once for a setup the target can geni/apoc out of? Then ofc you have no sparks, for antistun, vs a blademaster. Then your going to blow all your geni energy on AD.

    If we are talking about TW? If we were talking about TW my answer would be "No, I would do no such thing".

    But if we are talking about random gank-style pvp, where nothing much else is happening? In that context the I think that only way to waste skills is by not using them.
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    [*hops off flyer counts to 15 and comes up to gut your now totaly vulnerable archer like a fish*

    Silly blademaster!

    b:chuckle

    First off, you have not addressed how you are going to do this in a stun/freeze combo.

    Second off, those are not my only skills and abilities.
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Or on the ground>leap/bhodi>OI in the gap between spark and aim low (standing still on the ground with a bm within 30 meters? Ya thats a 3 second close on a flyer/run skills. less with leaps or holy path)

    This might work, do you want to try it?
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So blow 399 chi your genis energy both your control skills and AD cooldown for a chance to kill if the bm totaly ignored your 7-10 seconds of setup or fire demon QS and hope for a proc. Yup, sage is totaly even here.

    Sage venomus can be countered by a single MP pot while also getting a full mp bar, 5k mp food ftw. Seriously nobody mp drains in pvp because its damn near useless.

    I am getting confused -- I do not understand where absolute domain comes into this? Ok, yes, if I use my genie to gain chi, my genie would be on cooldown, but if I do that, I should be giving you no gap between stun and aim low. Or I could settle for double spark, which still gives me a dps boost higher than demon quickshot, and ensures that there will be no gap between my stunning arrow and my aim low. (Of course, lag could mess me up, if it gets bad, but it could be causing problems for you also.)

    And, yes, its about 7 seconds between when I start channelling stunning arrow and when I finish casting aim low, though the exact details vary based on circumstances. (But I am not sure where you get 10 seconds from). Meanwhile, my stunning arrow will have cooled off before my spark ends. And, if I let you get your anti-stun going I may need to kite you for a while.

    And, you are right: in an ideal world, nobody would care about mp drain. But we already know that "perfect world" was meant sarcastically...

    Then again, none of this is how I normally approach combat -- it was a theoretical exercise for a theoretical situation (the setup where you were using demon bell and magic marrow and I was using my old +5 weapons).
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So, ok, yes, you probably did say something like that... my memory for arguments from weeks ago in other threads is not all that precise.



    If we are talking about TW? If we were talking about TW my answer would be "No, I would do no such thing".

    But if we are talking about random gank-style pvp, where nothing much else is happening? In that context the I think that only way to waste skills is by not using them.

    Um, thats the point of my arguements, TW is just shooting targets at a little less than random till you die on an archer.

    Silly blademaster!

    b:chuckle

    First off, you have not addressed how you are going to do this in a stun/freeze combo.

    Second off, those are not my only skills and abilities.

    2 second gap before aim low = a lot of fall time

    This might work, do you want to try it?

    To be honest in map pvp the "drop and lol" tactic works almost every time while OI+Leap is abotu a 3/4 chance. I like how you suggest that the lower chance idea would work.

    I am getting confused -- I do not understand where absolute domain comes into this? Ok, yes, if I use my genie to gain chi, my genie would be on cooldown, but if I do that, I should be giving you no gap between stun and aim low. Or I could settle for double spark, which still gives me a dps boost higher than demon quickshot, and ensures that there will be no gap between my stunning arrow and my aim low. (Of course, lag could mess me up, if it gets bad, but it could be causing problems for you also.)

    You have no sparks no antistun and a bm in 30 meters... At this point its AD or get yourself stuned, the long cast time of wings wastes a lot of sparked time and gives a nice chance to drop.

    And, yes, its about 7 seconds between when I start channelling stunning arrow and when I finish casting aim low, though the exact details vary based on circumstances. (But I am not sure where you get 10 seconds from). Meanwhile, my stunning arrow will have cooled off before my spark ends. And, if I let you get your anti-stun going I may need to kite you for a while.

    Haard to kite when your stuck in an aim low animation

    And, you are right: in an ideal world, nobody would care about mp drain. But we already know that "perfect world" was meant sarcastically...

    No, even in PW nobody cares

    Then again, none of this is how I normally approach combat -- it was a theoretical exercise for a theoretical situation (the setup where you were using demon bell and magic marrow and I was using my old +5 weapons).

    Anything with a setup of more than a single skill AND a spark cost had better kill the oponent in my mind, otherwise its just wasteing resources.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Anything with a setup of more than a single skill AND a spark cost had better kill the oponent in my mind, otherwise its just wasteing resources.

    Well.. that's just it... the set up time for quickshot is same time that aim low needs.

    That said, quickshot has a 3 second cooldown.

    Then again, resources were never an issue, other than cooldowns1. And, perhaps I needed to have higher damage -- I had 305 dexterity which meant mine was a bit low.

    But I never ever came close to running out of chi in our experiments. And my big issue was getting stun locked -- I would need a different genie for that even if I did not change my build.
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    You guys 1v1'd? I wanted to watch :(
  • /Yahoo/ - Lost City
    /Yahoo/ - Lost City Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    This thread has kind of gone way off the original topic and becoming one of those hypothetical pvp fights :o

    The only real counterpoint I've read is that wind shield takes up energy that could be better used for other things and that demon qs has the potential for higher burst damage.

    In my particular case, i can recoop the energy lost by wind shield in under 12 seconds. No I can't spam it like QS, but it'll definitely be doing a decent amount of damage at 1.11 aps and, what's more, it's 100% guaranteed to proc, which is more useful for charm busting than QS imo
  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    /Yahoo/ - Lost City wrote: »
    This thread has kind of gone way off the original topic and becoming one of those hypothetical pvp fights :o

    The only real counterpoint I've read is that wind shield takes up energy that could be better used for other things and that demon qs has the potential for higher burst damage.

    In my particular case, i can recoop the energy lost by wind shield in under 12 seconds. No I can't spam it like QS, but it'll definitely be doing a decent amount of damage at 1.11 aps and, what's more, it's 100% guaranteed to proc, which is more useful for charm busting than QS imo

    Im done arguing. b:chuckle

    If you feel QS is not an amazing skill go sage, I will just say 90% of the sage archers that i knew before there was "remake culti" changed..

    Only shinzoko, Midnight, AimAce and yoshiki. Only sages that ever stay that way.

    +12 Rank9 with any culti or class really dont matter. Devoted is right b:cute
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You guys 1v1'd? I wanted to watch :(

    We did. He mostly beat me, because I am not very good in 1v1 PvP. I beat him a couple times, because he was rusty. So our final score score was Joshcja 10, Fleuri 2.

    But I was making a lot of mistakes, so I think this mostly reflects our 1v1 skill levels and my general level fatigue and was not very informative about cultivation. Also, I believe I was getting him to use his physical marrow, though I might be wrong about that (and now that I think about that, if he was using his physical marrow that means that I completely forgot about what it was that we were testing). Anyways, I would need a lot of practice (and a different genie) before I could compete effectively with him in that setup.
  • Channman - Lost City
    Channman - Lost City Posts: 491 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    how is QS not good i use it all the time on magic classes and archers(Mainly) but its a great skill to use on any class
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    We did. He mostly beat me, because I am not very good in 1v1 PvP. I beat him a couple times, because he was rusty. So our final score score was Joshcja 10, Fleuri 2.

    But I was making a lot of mistakes, so I think this mostly reflects our 1v1 skill levels and my general level fatigue and was not very informative about cultivation. Also, I believe I was getting him to use his physical marrow, though I might be wrong about that (and now that I think about that, if he was using his physical marrow that means that I completely forgot about what it was that we were testing). Anyways, I would need a lot of practice (and a different genie) before I could compete effectively with him in that setup.

    Really all this arguing of which culti is better, I see as highly hypothetical..idealized even. What matters more are individual circumstances; weapon refine, mastery of the class, preparedness, etc. the outcome of such interactions can not be decided by these kind of generalizations. Individual and situational matters are much more important imo.

    ...i just wanted to watch teh 1v1s :(

    Note: lol yes, this did turn into a culti debate xD
  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    The most influential sage archer on these forums doesn't PK.
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »
    The most influential sage archer on these forums doesn't PK.

    whos that? o.o
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    We did. He mostly beat me, because I am not very good in 1v1 PvP. I beat him a couple times, because he was rusty. So our final score score was Joshcja 10, Fleuri 2.

    But I was making a lot of mistakes, so I think this mostly reflects our 1v1 skill levels and my general level fatigue and was not very informative about cultivation. Also, I believe I was getting him to use his physical marrow, though I might be wrong about that (and now that I think about that, if he was using his physical marrow that means that I completely forgot about what it was that we were testing). Anyways, I would need a lot of practice (and a different genie) before I could compete effectively with him in that setup.

    Nope I would however let mag marrow drop at times to see if you were actually watching my buffs.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    age of r9

    more hits = more purgeeeeeeee

    even if the immobilize of aim low fails the added lvl 11 effect can still be applied, seal vs stun. in this instance 3 sec stun would be superior to 5 sec seal, if you were using aim low to stop the movement of your opponent (lol isnt that what immoblizes are for?). ofc this isn't a really common occurance, only bringing it up since I think alot of ppl misinterpreted an earlier argument in thread.

    if a BM mag marrows vs me I will QS them and laugh. if they are a durable target I will qs anyways and hope for purge <_<. if im bored or vs noobo i will ztp spam lightning for fun xD

    anyways if u really dont think qs is that good then dun use it xD. In TW im hiding somewhere qsing people so I normally do get to use most of the buff duration. .95 to 1.33 is nice.

    more off-topic- are there any archer skills that dont purge w/ purge bow? the same way that sage onslaught doesnt zerk for barbs? I instant shoot take aim some times, and I cant remember sonic boom (purge) ever coming out.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Ooh that would be a pain in the *** to test I think. Instant take aim is for the chi anyway no?
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  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »
    age of r9


    more off-topic- are there any archer skills that dont purge w/ purge bow? the same way that sage onslaught doesnt zerk for barbs? I instant shoot take aim some times, and I cant remember sonic boom (purge) ever coming out.

    I know It works on most of the skills that are used on pvp. Take aim/barrage/stun/sharp/metals/aim low.
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Nope I would however let mag marrow drop at times to see if you were actually watching my buffs.

    I mostly was not watching your buffs.

    But after fighting you, I very much doubt that attack rate was the issue. My attack rate in that fight was 1.05 attacks per second. A lot of demon archers will not exceed that attack rate even with quickshot. (Some will, though, of course, .)

    Edit: in retrospect, the big issue was that I was not using apothecaries. When I would anti-stun he would fly away and I found it relatively easy to stay away for a minute or so once he did that. And if he had come back right away, I would have had further anti-stun possibilities. Anyways, since this was a battle of stun vs. anti-stun, I was crippling myself by not using anything from my stack of vacuities. That said, my fumbling did not help either.

    Further edit: Joshcja seems to have been better about stunlocking than any blademaster I encountered on harshlands. Though, to be fair, on harshlands I was fighting lower level blademasters (i pretty much stopped when I hit 89) and yes, level matters. And I had a different skill set there, and lower health there, and those also matter (lower health means stun lock was not such a big issue).

    Also, in addition to using vacuities, cooldowns were a huge issue for these "tests". (And I use scare quotes because we really were not testing the original assertion, which was that sage could not deliver enough damage. Though I suppose my two wins show that I did do enough damage, even though I was a sage with only 305 dexterity. (Further edit: Since one of my two wins used no normal attacks, I think that this means that my interval gear was not needed, either.)) Anyways, I was going back into combat with my 3 minute cooldown skills hot -- and those are important skills for fighting a blademaster, and the no vacutity and inadequate genie issues made them big deals. And, in most of my combats I could not use awaken. I was dying with nearly full chi, but when I had awaken available I was inclined to try different approaches.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ooh that would be a pain in the *** to test I think. Instant take aim is for the chi anyway no?

    It's also for attack rate increase. Even if instant turns out to be 0.2 seconds, that's still a faster attack than most archer normal attacks.
  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »
    whos that? o.o

    Fleuri no?
  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Fleuri no?

    No, Its devoted.
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  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    No, Its devoted.

    LMAO oh how could I forget b:chuckle
  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    No, Its devoted.

    LOL b:laugh
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »
    The most influential sage archer on these forums doesn't PK.
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Fleuri no?

    If I am the most influential archer on these forums, I think that would be because of how I view things rather than anything I have done.

    On the other hand, I do participate in TW, though perhaps that is "not pk"? (And I do have some 1v1 pk experience but its mostly not archer experience.)

    But in a sense you are right -- I play this game to relax, and PK mostly does not do that for me. PK can be an interesting challenge, and worth learning. But I think most people that like it would call PK "exciting" or "challenging" rather than "relaxing". (Someone with no gear that can be improved might find PK relaxing, but I am not that someone.)

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