Sins need a nerf

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  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Sin - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I think if anyone triple spark / occult iced a 100 BM at lvl94, they would drop them. If that BM did it to you, you'd probably drop faster than you dropped him. Just saying b:surrender

    Hmmm its to bad sins dont have some sort of "stealth" that allows them a 100% shure first stun, or a 50% stat dodge skill if that fails.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Sin - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I think if anyone triple spark / occult iced a 100 BM at lvl94, they would drop them. If that BM did it to you, you'd probably drop faster than you dropped him. Just saying b:surrender

    that screenshot may not have been the best example, but sins are disgustingly OP. It's not really even a debate anymore.. even the bad sins are starting to realize how OP their class is.
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  • SugarPrinces - Sanctuary
    SugarPrinces - Sanctuary Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    when i first saw this topic, for some reason i thought of nerf toys, specifically padded swords.. and sins runnin around whackin ppl with nerf swords & dggers.. lol i needs sleep i think..
  • Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear
    Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Like the +11 r9 sin on our server that Maze steps - ironguard - auto attack 1 person - forced stealth when there's 4 other people to hit while under ironguard, 7 times in a row.

    right?
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  • Sin - Raging Tide
    Sin - Raging Tide Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Hmmm its to bad sins dont have some sort of "stealth" that allows them a 100% shure first stun, or a 50% stat dodge skill if that fails.

    Ever Heard of Expel or Absolute Domain? You should try it out b:laugh. I've seen BM's get out of sticky situations easy before against sins. And not just BMs either. People that actually know how to PvP and have good experience and skills fighting sins.
  • misssang
    misssang Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »
    They do. That's not even a debate anymore, it truly isn't. At this point even Sins joke about how OP they are.
    Sins are the best class in the game for PvE and PvP. Every other class in the game is balanced where they might be good in PvP, but excellent in PvE. And others are excellent in PvP, but just alright in PvE.
    An example would be wizards. Obviously we're excellent in PvP (especially mass PvP) but we're a joke in 90% of all instances in the game.
    Another example would be Blademasters. They're excellent in PvE with 5aps, but they aren't that great in PvP. I know there's good PvP Bms, but rarely can equally geared bms beat an equally geared caster.

    But then you have sins. They may not be the best in mass PvP, but they dominate 1v1 (with the possible exception of r9 +12 psychics). And then they have 5aps and BP, which makes them a force in PvE.

    Basically, Sin is the class you play if you want to play PWI on easy mode.


    So what is there to do?
    The sins need some form of nerf.

    Now I don't really know how to nerf them in PvE, so let's look at PvP and their skills.

    Tackling Slash- deal some extra damage, paralyze the opponent, and gain 50 chi? Are you kidding me? A paralyze skill on any other class would cost chi, probably a spark. Why is this one giving chi? Make this skill take 25-50 chi, not give it.

    Focus Mind/Tidal Protection- skills that give you a 25/50% chance to avoid any damage/status ailment respectively. They have no drawback. No chi cost and the cooldowns are fairly low. Not sure how to nerf these, just know that they're OP.

    Stealth- PWI is the only game I know of where stealthing not only has zero drawbacks, it rewards you with a spark. Originally the mp cost was obviously meant to be a balancing factor, but that's out the window. Between mantou, cleric buffs, and mana potions mp cost is a nonfactor.
    A simple way to nerf stealth used in other games is to give a large speed debuff to Sins while they're in stealth.
    It won't stop them from running from fights, but it makes it harder for them to stealth gank someone, force them to use up their AD/Apoth, restealth, and kill them after it wears off.
    Another way to nerf stealthing would be to freeze all cooldowns while the sin is in stealth. A lot of sins will force stealth, hover around their target until everything is cooldowned, then just try again.

    Deaden Nerves- survive a killing blow by getting back 20% hp. Makes a charm bypass impossible. Only balancing factor is the long cooldown, which atm is a joke since Sins can go into their own personal safe zone (stealth) until the cooldown is over.
    To nerf it, I'd say to make it paralyze the sin for 4seconds on activation.


    All suggestions for nerfs are just first thoughts, and I don't think they're the 100% be all end all solutions.
    If you have a better one, suggest it.
    I also don't think every single one needs to be implemented. We don't want to kill off sins, just nerf them.
    The what? I realise this is my 'first' post on the forum but not my first account as I lpayed way back... but I have to disagree..


    Wizzard is great for PVE and PVP too, so that doesnt make sence!

    You just have to learn to play against them.. Why dont you understand that? Yes, I know, You are prolly currently playing longger then me, but I played for over 2 years back on a different account, and I can fairly say they are not. Do kknow that I played on chinese version.


    You might as well nerf every caster cclass for being great at nuking, as well as assasin then >< so disagreed
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    @all those that say you just need to learn your class to fight sins.. Ignorance is bliss.
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  • Magicsaber - Dreamweaver
    Magicsaber - Dreamweaver Posts: 727 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    misssang wrote: »
    ...
    Wizzard is great for PVE and PVP too, so that doesnt make sence!
    ...

    You might as well nerf every caster cclass for being great at nuking, as well as assasin then >< so disagreed

    Can Wizard solo Nirvana already ? b:shocked

    May be this is why half of top 210 are Assassins, because they are useless (look at PWI Rankings) ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    @all those that say you just need to learn your class to fight sins.. Ignorance is bliss.

    I typically agree...

    However...

    A Psy has a good chance at killing a Sin, stun, stealth, and all.

    An R9+12 Psy with SoS on will most likely silence the Sin when the Sin pops on the Psy. If the Psy pops AD, or expel, they most likely will be able to oneshot the Sin when the stun wears off. And for the whole deaden thing... Psy can do 2-3X the Sins total HP with one shot, most likely, so if deaden kicks in and the Sin has 20% HP left (or goes to full from a charm), they suddenly... Are dead on the second shot.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
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    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
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  • Sin - Raging Tide
    Sin - Raging Tide Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Can Wizard solo Nirvana already ? b:shocked

    May be this is why half of top 210 are Assassins, because they are useless (look at PWI Rankings) ?

    Who ever said wizzards can't solo nirvana? b:chuckle
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I typically agree...

    However...

    A Psy has a good chance at killing a Sin, stun, stealth, and all.

    An R9+12 Psy with SoS on will most likely silence the Sin when the Sin pops on the Psy. If the Psy pops AD, or expel, they most likely will be able to oneshot the Sin when the stun wears off. And for the whole deaden thing... Psy can do 2-3X the Sins total HP with one shot, most likely, so if deaden kicks in and the Sin has 20% HP left (or goes to full from a charm), they suddenly... Are dead on the second shot.

    Psychics probably have the best chance vs a sin other than another sin.. but I'm hearing the sins still hold the advantage. The seal is nice, but remember the chance is cut in half or a third because of tidal.. and there are always genie skills like will surge, faith, domain etc that can get by that (not to mention immune pots). You should also keep in mind that not all sins are aps.. r9 dph sins can have some pretty awesome survivability. You can watch a few of MageFizban's videos to get a rough idea of what end game psy vs sin is really like.
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  • Magicsaber - Dreamweaver
    Magicsaber - Dreamweaver Posts: 727 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Sin - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Who ever said wizzards can't solo nirvana? b:chuckle

    misssang wrote: »
    ...
    Wizzard is great for PVE and PVP too, so that doesnt make sence!
    ...

    You might as well nerf every caster cclass for being great at nuking, as well as assasin then >< so disagreed

    Wizards are superior then ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sin - Raging Tide
    Sin - Raging Tide Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Wizards are superior then ?

    For sure. 1 sage BIDS will 1 shot every boss at the same time with a TT60 magic sword. b:shocked
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Sin - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Ever Heard of Expel or Absolute Domain? You should try it out b:laugh. I've seen BM's get out of sticky situations easy before against sins. And not just BMs either. People that actually know how to PvP and have good experience and skills fighting sins.

    Your mentaly tarded if you actually beleive that.

    My old bm carried a geni with a 100% badge, fortify, AD, adr surge, and lawbreaker. Sins would try to kill it over and over with stealthspam (the record was 84 tries before one of us died) wait...why so long? because the sins would only pop up with a antistun/imune apoc on. Over, and over, and over. Stealthing the second it died. Simply put there is no way for a non sin class to kill a stealthspaming sin without ungodly luck aoeing mobs or a MASSIVE mistake on the sins part. ofc we're not even going into what a skilled sin can do with control skills. Combine the fact that a BM cannot kill a fully refines sin in one stun while a sin can kill a fully refined bm in one stun, 50% stat evade, and the ability to flat out spam spark.

    Nope, there is no way to beat a well played sin even out of stealth more than 10% of the time assumeing equal skill levels, and even a total tard can be virtually unkillable with stealth.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Magicsaber - Dreamweaver
    Magicsaber - Dreamweaver Posts: 727 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Sin - Raging Tide wrote: »
    For sure. 1 sage BIDS will 1 shot every boss at the same time with a TT60 magic sword. b:shocked
    You not know Wizard skills.

    Don't cry, your character is Assassin, so you don't need to think about every other move during the fight.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sin - Raging Tide
    Sin - Raging Tide Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Your mentaly tarded if you actually beleive that.

    My old bm carried a geni with a 100% badge, fortify, AD, adr surge, and lawbreaker. Sins would try to kill it over and over with stealthspam (the record was 84 tries before one of us died) wait...why so long? because the sins would only pop up with a antistun/imune apoc on. Over, and over, and over. Stealthing the second it died. Simply put there is no way for a non sin class to kill a stealthspaming sin without ungodly luck aoeing mobs or a MASSIVE mistake on the sins part. ofc we're not even going into what a skilled sin can do with control skills. Combine the fact that a BM cannot kill a fully refines sin in one stun while a sin can kill a fully refined bm in one stun, 50% stat evade, and the ability to flat out spam spark.

    Nope, there is no way to beat a well played sin even out of stealth more than 10% of the time assumeing equal skill levels, and even a total tard can be virtually unkillable with stealth.

    If your facing a stealth noob sin, Alpha Male is your friend. It will knock it out of stealth within 20 meters. As soon as he stealths, use it, stun him, turn the **** into sushi. Cause his stealth will be in cool down and there will be no escape. Also if you get desperate, there are always detection pots. expensive as hell but useful. Just a tip :)


    Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    You not know Wizard skills.

    Don't cry, your character is Assassin, so you don't need to think about every other move during the fight.

    The joke flew right past you faster than a bullet. b:surrender
  • _Petal_ - Harshlands
    _Petal_ - Harshlands Posts: 499 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    b:lipcurl And to think, I remember people calling us Psychics a useless class. Now we're supposedly the only class that kills Assassins. Sure we could....if all of us were geared like Gorgi or urDian.

    And don't say skill has anything to do with it (although it does for the most part in their cases.) Longknife is one of the best F2P Psychics out there, and he STILL gets rolled by every nabsh*t that has a Sin.

    facerolling 5aps Sin > Skill

    Every single time.


    [/thread]
    They made fun of me because I wasn't a R8 Psychic...and then came third cast. It's not funny anymore.

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    Q_Q
  • Zerasin - Lost City
    Zerasin - Lost City Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    lool wiz ya in lost city i see lots of wizs with complete r9 gears lol b:shocked. and i dunno how the hell they get the money?! r wiz good money makers? OR maybe the only thing they do is get o their sins and start selling frosts and grinding for money. lol here $100 is 100 gold in where i live its 1000SR for 100 gold b:cry. PS the damn currency is $1 > 3.75sr im using paymo and lol when i use 10sr to get 1.24 gold i lose exra 5sr so =15 b:cryb:surrender
  • Tankarei - Dreamweaver
    Tankarei - Dreamweaver Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    IMO sins need no Nerf.
    They're already too weak.
    K they get 150 chi on Rising dragon, 50 on Tackling slash and 200 on the "skill I forggot the name".

    Sins does NEVER reach the real meaning of 5 aps, they must be sparked to be 5 aps. Even Sage BMs are able to reach perma 5aps unsparked.
    Blood Paint is a very kind skill, which serves of nothing on PvP.
    Sins has much evasion. If i wear 2 Misty forests and my accuracy buff, and hit a sin with a sage bestial onslaught, sin is in trouble.
    You wizzie if you use the accuracy reducing skill and evasion ornaments you **** a sin out.
    Deaden nerves doesnt count as a big advantage.

    Sins gathers chi on imobilizing, but barbarians GAINs chi to STUN. Sins spend 1 spark for a telestun which takes lots of time to cooldown or 2 sparks on a good damaged stun that also takes time to load. BM spends only 30 i think to deal a 5s **** AoE stun. Wizzards with 2 sparks can deal a **** stun aoe with a **** Earth Damage and you know that.

    Stop complaining. Game is balanced. Only thing left unbalanced is Psychics agro.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Tankarei - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    IMO sins need no Nerf.
    They're already too weak.
    K they get 150 chi on Rising dragon, 50 on Tackling slash and 200 on the "skill I forggot the name".

    Sins does NEVER reach the real meaning of 5 aps, they must be sparked to be 5 aps. Even Sage BMs are able to reach perma 5aps unsparked.
    Blood Paint is a very kind skill, which serves of nothing on PvP.
    Sins has much evasion. If i wear 2 Misty forests and my accuracy buff, and hit a sin with a sage bestial onslaught, sin is in trouble.
    You wizzie if you use the accuracy reducing skill and evasion ornaments you **** a sin out.
    Deaden nerves doesnt count as a big advantage.

    Sins gathers chi on imobilizing, but barbarians GAINs chi to STUN. Sins spend 1 spark for a telestun which takes lots of time to cooldown or 2 sparks on a good damaged stun that also takes time to load. BM spends only 30 i think to deal a 5s **** AoE stun. Wizzards with 2 sparks can deal a **** stun aoe with a **** Earth Damage and you know that.

    Stop complaining. Game is balanced. Only thing left unbalanced is Psychics agro.

    god our trolls suck these days.
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  • andrewgray
    andrewgray Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Tankarei - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    IMO sins need no Nerf.
    They're already too weak.
    K they get 150 chi on Rising dragon, 50 on Tackling slash and 200 on the "skill I forggot the name".

    Sins does NEVER reach the real meaning of 5 aps, they must be sparked to be 5 aps. Even Sage BMs are able to reach perma 5aps unsparked.
    Blood Paint is a very kind skill, which serves of nothing on PvP.
    Sins has much evasion. If i wear 2 Misty forests and my accuracy buff, and hit a sin with a sage bestial onslaught, sin is in trouble.
    You wizzie if you use the accuracy reducing skill and evasion ornaments you **** a sin out.
    Deaden nerves doesnt count as a big advantage.

    Sins gathers chi on imobilizing, but barbarians GAINs chi to STUN. Sins spend 1 spark for a telestun which takes lots of time to cooldown or 2 sparks on a good damaged stun that also takes time to load. BM spends only 30 i think to deal a 5s **** AoE stun. Wizzards with 2 sparks can deal a **** stun aoe with a **** Earth Damage and you know that.

    Stop complaining. Game is balanced. Only thing left unbalanced is Psychics agro.

    Omg, someone that actually see's what is right front of their face.

    +1 Tankarei
  • theloek
    theloek Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Tankaraei, if lvl 72 really is your highest lvl char.

    You have obvioulsy never experienced the true OP sins with high aps, +10-12 daggers or even ones with genie skills.

    you probably had the right intentions but until you know what youre talking about dont state that sins are not OP because they simple are.

    Im not gonna say why because so many people already showed in this thread.

    I used to like pvp against all classes, but nowadays its mostly sins i duel because they know they're gonna win and those arent fun fights.

    I'm thinking about leaving this game, the only reason i haven't left yet is that i have some very little hope the game is gonna be fun and challenging again. And one of the things that would make this possible is nerf the sins. ( and FC,....etc but thats not what this thread is about).

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