Sins need a nerf

TheDan - Sanctuary

KrittyCat wrote: »

I want a star...

Dang...I am bored...

Don't have you 2x drops to attend to? My spark macro button keeps my character busy, while I study for exams tomorrow... Yeah, did I mention tomorrow?

krittycat

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Don't have you 2x drops to attend to? My spark macro button keeps my character busy, while I study for exams tomorrow... Yeah, did I mention tomorrow?

I'm moderating on my phone, because the internet and cable in my area (Verizon) got knocked out by a storm this afternoon....sucks, eh?

And good luck on your exams tomorrow.b:bye

Lesthar - Heavens Tear

I wondered about something for a while... Have there been any true class rebalancing since PWI was made?
I doubt a bit about it since people complain about archers getting too much aggro in instance, no thanks to critical rate and barbs not enough (the irony, since they are the historical tankers) and that shashins massacre everything in sight (it should be counterbalanced by the fact they are top squishy, but it seems that well, they are still OP for most people here; I don't know about that part since mine is still lv 40 right now).
Wait, these days, even the formerly so-called most cheapo class (venoes) are totally devalued, from what I've read (Hercs becoming ****?). And BMs become OP now...

And stuff concerning other classes I don't need to cover here, mostly because I just read titles about that kind of subjects here, the extensive calculations about demon spark, R9 damage, 5aps and other refined and sharding on stuff found in packs bore me to no end.
What the heck happened?

That said, if there is any patch regarding skill tweaks, I am sure major/massive QQ, trolling and ragequitting will ensue. It's really sad it has to come to that everytime around here in this game.

Yadda, yadda...

Dralighte - Harshlands

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Show me a Sin that can do this, then maybe I will consider Sins overpowered.

and I'll answer with this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CUMEb5lNIU
EDIT: I'm far to be the first to post that link xD

Evict - Heavens Tear

Dralighte - Harshlands wrote: »

and I'll answer with this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CUMEb5lNIU
EDIT: I'm far to be the first to post that link xD

HT has a BM that solos Harpy at each respawn. What's your point?

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

HT has a BM that solos Harpy at each respawn. What's your point?

Like I said earlier, Bms are good PvE characters but not that good at PvP.
Sin is amazing at both.

Try a diff approach, because this whole "sins aren't actually OP" thing you got going isn't working out.

We've already established they are OP, so try coming up with an argument that doesn't fall into that category.

Okeano - Harshlands

Evict (or anyone), if you don't think Sin is OP, you are kidding yourself.

Alnnestasia - Dreamweaver

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

People like you who say "it hasn't changed yet, therefore we shouldn't try" are the type that let companies like PWI get away with whatever they want.

I made a thread about the TW changes about a month after they were released and people said that it was a waste of time, but obviously mine and dozens of other threads all culminated into something that got PWIs attention.

So there.

You do realize that PWI likely changed TW rewards because of the release of Guild Bases, and not because you asked them nicely? It is the same reason they wiped the map, actually. Clearing the map gave a lot of smaller factions time to hold a territory and build up some coin for a base. On -some- servers the map will turn one color sooner than later, but two to three weeks gave the smaller factions that didn't start near large TW powerhouses time to get some coin.

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Show me a Sin that can do this, then maybe I will consider Sins overpowered.

Wizards can't go into stealth to escape dying or to get chi. They are visible as the enter range, channel their spell, and if their spell fails to kill.

Assassins are invisible on approach, invisible as they start their combo (depending on the combo they are using), stun lock you in place to stop you from retaliating, and then turn invisible if they fail to kill you. Sometimes even if they do kill you; just to get easy chi.

Can you hit four mil? No. But you can cripple, if not kill, most people in a matter of seconds without any indication it is coming or when you leave.

I'll take the wizard, thanks.

I wondered about something for a while... Have there been any true class rebalancing since PWI was made?

In short, no. Genies have been altered a few times, but there haven't been any major balance patches for classes. The original six were, actually, balanced. At higher levels archers take aggro more than barbs simply because archers hit harder. Not unbalanced per se, since an archer drawing aggro on boss they can't tank has a simple solution. To stop shooting. Since, to be perfectly honest, increasing a barb's crit rate won't do much good; and increasing aggro on abilities would only affect late game. Barbs don't do damage, and Archers do. So, if an archer is doing too much damage, it is their fault and not the barb's.

BMs becoming OP is due to equipment and not the class itself. Back when most BMs were Axe/Hammer or all-spec, BMs were just like all the other classes. The stacking of -interval made them OP simply because they have skills that compliment fists, not because any individual skill is broken. The actual problem is a mechanic, not a skill or skill set. Venomancers being outclassed (Which would be the first I've heard of it) is probably due to the tendency of most venos to play as a magic DD with a pet, and not to make use of all of their skills. In terms of soloing, the ability of Venos has not gone down, the ability of Sins is far higher. If any imbalance exists, it is because Sins are too good as opposed to Venos being to weak.

And more on topic;

A lot of Sins I know on DW admit their class is overpowered, which would make this the first MMO where people who play an overpowered class admit to it being overpowered. Some, such as the Sin I quoted above, don't think that way because of the common rationale of 'if we're overpowered, why not play a sin?'. Maybe some of us preferred the game before the RT expansion, and perhaps even the old dev team. The Earthguard are nicely balanced with, perhaps, a few issues but not as much as Sins. I don't PK much, but at Orchid Temple there are almost all sins, a few archers, and maybe some BMs. Which constitutes the majority of classes than tend to APS stack.

I would be fine with an alteration to the stealth mechanic itself; and ignoring the other skills a Sin has. The only reason I particularly care about stealth is because being in a squad with a sin that just runs past everything and only helps on bosses (in which they don't watch that they are doing, get aggro, and die because they have no idea how to control their aggro) is rather annoying. That, perhaps, is more due to the degradation of player skill found in Pub squads more than the class itself though.

Of course, just because a class is overpowered, doesn't mean it will be nerfed. It would be nice; but I'm not holding my breath. Threads like this actually get more annoying than sins do, personally.

Omea - Lost City

KrittyCat wrote: »

Would the Seeker skill Heart Shatter stack with those debuffs?

As long as the fish used a skill to hit 1 mil.

Evict - Heavens Tear

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Like I said earlier, Bms are good PvE characters but not that good at PvP.
Sin is amazing at both.

Try a diff approach, because this whole "sins aren't actually OP" thing you got going isn't working out.

We've already established they are OP, so try coming up with an argument that doesn't fall into that category.

Nowhere in my posts did I say that Sins aren't OP. I stated that the heavy cashshopping/merchanting Sins are the example you're using to back up your claims. You're level 96, how do you know anything about endgame Sins in PK/PvE? You've listed four skills that are decent to kind of OP; every class has them, yet you've made it out as though if it's just Sin skills that're godlike. You've said Sins are super OP 1v1, what stops you using a Detection Pot 1v1? I know from first hand experience that not every Sin that hits 100+ is a machine, heck, most are glass cannons, so why do you continue to protest against something that only affects a minority of the class?

If you're going to bring up an old, unoriginal topic, you should contrast the subject instead of providing one-sided views.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Class changes? Sins could triple spark from stealth before, and...HELLO 5 chi/hit for BM and sins.

I think the Devs overcompensated for a suck class, because sins suck balls on paper. You have a class that does no elemental damage, is melee range, has no cheap disable, and wears light armor...

This can't be right...we ****ed up big time and this expansion is going to be fail! Let's give them so much crit rate it's stupid - Power Dash canceling

Ways to prevent from being 1 shot - Tidal Protection, Deaden Nerves

A LOT of ways to recover from failed attacks - massive chi gain on various abilities, including forced stealth

A lot of ways to prevent heavies from retaliating (because physical attacks suck against heavy armor) - stun, seal, sleep all on 1 class

A lot of ways to prepare for an attack - buffing, double sparking from stealth

More spike damage - Wolf Emblem, Chill, God of Frenzy/Berserk on weapon

and that's how we have sins today.

//ayne - Harshlands15

Guys, you do realize they are called Assassins.
They're supposed to get the job done and leave, google it if you want.

When you hire an Assassin or whatever do you want them to keep trying 5 times do get the job done, or in real life, pay and assassin to die on the job?
No, they're supposed to have the upper advantage, I think this was PWI's intention.

vristion

"You're level 96, how do you know anything about endgame Sins in PK/PvE? "

Wait...am i missing somthing here? There is a magical place people that are engame goto?

People of ALL levels deal with engame sins if they are part of a TW faction, or on a PvP server...wth

vristion

//ayne - Harshlands wrote: »

Guys, you do realize they are called Assassins.
They're supposed to get the job done and leave, google it if you want.

When you hire an Assassin or whatever do you want them to keep trying 5 times do get the job done, or in real life, pay and assassin to die on the job?
No, they're supposed to have the upper advantage, I think this was PWI's intention.

Your are right.... But since you want to use a "real" assassin as part of your argument. A real assassin would have to plan out his attack with the most precise meassures to prevent the smallest of flaws.. Which could mean days-weeks-months of planning... So if we were to make these assassins as "real" as your argument, then we should put a 24 hour cool down on stealth, a week cool down on tele stuns. and a Month cool down on force stealth.

Evict - Heavens Tear

vristion wrote: »

"You're level 96, how do you know anything about endgame Sins in PK/PvE? "

Wait...am i missing somthing here? There is a magical place people that are engame goto?

People of ALL levels deal with engame sins if they are part of a TW faction, or on a PvP server...wth

OP is from a PvE server, his kill count is 20x and at 96, you wouldn't usually participate in PvP against high end cashshoppers/merchanters. Also, OP is talking about Sins in 1v1, TW is very different.

vristion wrote: »

Your are right.... But since you want to use a "real" assassin as part of your argument. A real assassin would have to plan out his attack with the most precise meassures to prevent the smallest of flaws.. Which could mean days-weeks-months of planning... So if we were to make these assassins as "real" as your argument, then we should put a 24 hour cool down on stealth, a week cool down on tele stuns. and a Month cool down on force stealth.

The amount of time it takes to farm a 5.0 set and then earn the money to shard and refine said gear.

Lesthar - Heavens Tear

Alnnestasia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In short, no. Genies have been altered a few times, but there haven't been any major balance patches for classes. The original six were, actually, balanced. At higher levels archers take aggro more than barbs simply because archers hit harder. Not unbalanced per se, since an archer drawing aggro on boss they can't tank has a simple solution. To stop shooting. Since, to be perfectly honest, increasing a barb's crit rate won't do much good; and increasing aggro on abilities would only affect late game. Barbs don't do damage, and Archers do. So, if an archer is doing too much damage, it is their fault and not the barb's.

BMs becoming OP is due to equipment and not the class itself. Back when most BMs were Axe/Hammer or all-spec, BMs were just like all the other classes. The stacking of -interval made them OP simply because they have skills that compliment fists, not because any individual skill is broken. The actual problem is a mechanic, not a skill or skill set. Venomancers being outclassed (Which would be the first I've heard of it) is probably due to the tendency of most venos to play as a magic DD with a pet, and not to make use of all of their skills. In terms of soloing, the ability of Venos has not gone down, the ability of Sins is far higher. If any imbalance exists, it is because Sins are too good as opposed to Venos being to weak.

About archers and barbs: Agreed, but the fact that mobs go 'Oh, stop bulling me!' and run towards the archer to kill him/her, it makes the whole purpose of a support unit moot, akin to cleric aggro (the principle of a support unit is that he/she should remain in the shadows... even if a cleric can arguably be annoyed by monsters a few times because the dungeon exploring is made too easy otherwise).
Of course, an archer is designed to avoid and crit a lot and then deal some big spike damage accompanied with DoTs. But again, if an archer becomes a hindrance and a deadweight, they become useless in instances and their overall population does not progress. I mean, what good is an archer if he/she cannot kill mobs? They are no healers and the evasion buff... Well... you can guess the rest.
And then dungeons should be open to all classes... I'd even say that every class is unique and should have a place in every team, such a concept that is not viable at all right now.

The only way to solve this issue would be to give more aggro rate (in terms of getting and keeping mob control) to barbs. They are indeed the defensive type (and thus making a DD out of one is going against nature and does not last long... I won't even talk about AA or bow-based ones, they are plain parodies made by bored people in my opinion). Survivability and gradual monster destruction is their speciality, reflected in the big repairs they have to deal with at the end of the day. Adding any crit is always nice, but yeah, on a low base, critical hits will still be uncommon (Or they would be too OP).
If instead you reduced the overall damage dealt by an archer, I pray for them on dealing with mobs outside of instances. Unless they are given more basic survivability (independant of added points for build or equipment) or something like that, a less offense-more defense idea which could be an interesting point to think over.

About BMs: Yes, and they are the original owners of fists. Gamers just exploited a legitimate way to be strong, since as you said, skills and mastery are included. The funniest thing is that before that, people were saying that fist was the weakest, dumbest weapon and that every fist master was the laughingstock. It then makes me chuckle that people made a full 180 degrees on the topic and never admitted their change of heart.
By the way, guess why Shashins (my affectionate term for Assassins), Psychics, Mystics and Seekers are weapon type-limited? All because of this madness (and Shashins kill fast enough anyway with their daggers).

About Venoes: This is not a topic coming from me. Trust me, there is even a fresh thread still on page one of the general discussion regarding that. I'd say once again that venoes keep a major role in instances, but since everyone wants to be the biggest killer/damage dealer around and not play on survivability or careful dungeon-crawling... (I am of the latter school btw, so it's why I don't understand instance rushing).
I don't follow masses either, so even if I am called a noob for not going R9, demon spark, 5aps or whatever else, I don't care.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

Set daggers back another 0.1 int, PvE wise solved (ish)

Stealth should have higher penalties. Tired of stealth -> spark -> i expek -> lolstealth -> rinserepeat

Zenorx - Harshlands

Killinator, take a good, hard look at my siggie

ijs

Adroit - Lost City

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

Set daggers back another 0.1 int, PvE wise solved (ish)

Stealth should have higher penalties. Tired of stealth -> spark -> i expek -> lolstealth -> rinserepeat

that would help alot actually, but stealth isn't the only thing that makes sins OP. Would be an excellent start though :P

RouxLouka - Dreamweaver

Let's change stealth into shapeshifter. Instead of disappearing, sins copy another player, mob, or npc. If they can find an invisible mob to copy, then they can do true stealth. You would still be able to select them no matter what.

Lesthar - Heavens Tear

RouxLouka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Let's change stealth into shapeshifter. Instead of disappearing, sins copy another player, mob, or npc. If they can find an invisible mob to copy, then they can do true stealth. You would still be able to select them no matter what.

Copy another player? I sense a big mess in PK mode, duel but also people hiding to cause mayhem while another is reported for something he/she did not do.
Who would copy Duke Blacke? I should would not want to. That said, smacking him around a little bit should be fun.

Invisible mobs... like the TT one?

PrettylnPink - Lost City

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Show me a Sin that can do this, then maybe I will consider Sins overpowered.

holy.....b:shocked

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

derp.

Lets use are brain now. Lets see, there are over 30 threads about "QQ" about sins and "suggesting ways to fix it". I don't think another thread will do anything. Anyways, why would a dev search these threads..to look/use anyone's solution. Sins need a nerf or someone can't play they're class? Is this another useless thread or a legit thread?

Just my 2cent b:thanks

Scavenge - Dreamweaver

HAH sins OP it takes a super geared sin to even kill me I just one shot them all the time with arma when they go stealth I aoe them out and arma again they're not neccsairly OP if have of them are tards and just spark spark spark like most do..and for that comment that psychics **** on new classes iS BS notice that orignial classes give them hell with just average gear yet they have to drop 23042934u394523 dollars just to completley OP any of the classes espically on my barb if Im charmed a sin barely ever kills me..I'll be makeing a couple of videos later to prove this matter ^^

RADD_RATT - Harshlands

its not even the demon APS sins you guys should be worried about. wait till a CSing sin actually gets smart and goes full R9 sage. it will go from quikly killing 1 or 2 people then back to staelth.... to BAM did that sage sin just 2 shot everyone in a 10 meter radious? i think he did. i love being sage

enuciable

Scavenge - Dreamweaver wrote: »

HAH sins OP it takes a super geared sin to even kill me I just one shot them all the time with arma when they go stealth I aoe them out and arma again they're not neccsairly OP if have of them are tards and just spark spark spark like most do..and for that comment that psychics **** on new classes iS BS notice that orignial classes give them hell with just average gear yet they have to drop 23042934u394523 dollars just to completley OP any of the classes espically on my barb if Im charmed a sin

barely ever kills me..I'll be makeing a couple of videos later to prove this matter ^^

Lvl 99 501 pk kills, stop farming lower lvls noob


On topic

I agree most everything the OP says except about BM. They are both very good pvp and pve.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

enuciable wrote: »

Lvl 99 501 pk kills, stop farming lower lvls noob


On topic

I agree most everything the OP says except about BM. They are both very good pvp and pve.

lolcarebear

ArmaniEx - Harshlands

I agree, but then again no sense in trying to have a convo on the topic like human beings; there is always an idiot who says things like "stop qqing". No doubt sins have a fair advantage in the game, the pvp bypass thing is something that highly upsets me; and stealth is so much bs being that they can anti stun self buff and we cannot do nothing about it

MAClNTOSH - Dreamweaver

RADD_RATT - Harshlands wrote: »

its not even the demon APS sins you guys should be worried about. wait till a CSing sin actually gets smart and goes full R9 sage. it will go from quikly killing 1 or 2 people then back to staelth.... to BAM did that sage sin just 2 shot everyone in a 10 meter radious? i think he did. i love being sage

Poetic on Dreamweaver.

Sage, full R9, +12 dags, +10(?) armor/accessories, Full sharded DoT.

Alnnestasia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The only reason I particularly care about stealth is because being in a squad with a sin that just runs past everything and only helps on bosses (in which they don't watch that they are doing, get aggro, and die because they have no idea how to control their aggro) is rather annoying. That, perhaps, is more due to the degradation of player skill found in Pub squads more than the class itself though.

Sins that do that should be immediately kicked from the squad, ijs. The only time stealth should be used when in a squad is if you're rushing everyone through (force stealth in a safe area to lose aggro, only advisable if you have really nice gear), if you pull aggro on a boss you can't take more than a couple hits from, or to bypass a few mobs and kill a guardian to open a gate.

Ceiba - Sanctuary

Somebody please tell me that this link is fake, that it belongs to a private server, and than that sin did not soloed harpy wraith b:surrender

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CUMEb5lNIU