Sins need a nerf

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Wizard is interchangeable with cleric/veno/mystic/archers.

I'm sorry you think so, but I'm not high enough APS to twitch everything to death in 2 seconds so maybe I noticed a difference. Clerics die the easiest, generally.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

At full +12 refines, sins still have the advantage over psychics in a 1v1 situation.

Depends more on who's playing the characters at that point, although a Sin will always have the advantage of avoiding battle to begin with.

Bladesaber - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

At full +12 refines, sins still have the advantage over psychics in a 1v1 situation.

For the most part i would agree.

I saw a full rank 9 +12 sin and psy go at it and the defining factor was buffs and stealth.

If the sin got stealth off he would usually win, if he didn't psy would.

If the psy had Soul of Retaliation on the psy would win because the sin would kill himself.

The sin v psy thing is complicated cause it changes player to player, some are just people that don't know how to play their class, some are extremely skilled. It all depends on who gets the first shot(s) off and what follows after that.

Longknife - Harshlands

It's obvious the devs typo'ed on the chi amounts regarding sin skills.

Headhunt is supposed to give two sparks when it's casted, not take them away.

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

It's obvious the devs typo'ed on the chi amounts regarding sin skills.

Headhunt is supposed to give two sparks when it's casted, not take them away.

That's not the only place where they messed up. Throatcut is actually supposed to take negative 2.4 seconds to cast, such that upon using the skill, the game warps space-time to go back in time to one-shot the target.

Honestly, though, most of the suggestions I've seen about balancing the class would leave Sin woefully broken (and not in the good way). The closest "duct-tape-it-till-it-works" fix that I can think of is to give Earthguard enough detection levels to detect Sins their same level, and to give Seekers better protection against status effects, so that the EG would become something of a natural predator towards Assassins. It wouldn't fix 1v1 PVP against Sins for the old classes, though; for that, the best fix would probably be more class-specific Genie skills that purify stuns and silences/reflect a heinous amount of damage for a short time/grant detection levels.

Coupled with some sort of balanced debuff for Sins in stealth (movement debuff is the most balanced suggestion I've seen so far, and is common in a great many other games, MMOs or not), I'd think these changes would go a long way in balancing Sins.

Why, as a Sin, do I care? Because I'm not that good at PVP, and as much as I love my Sin, my ability to get better at PVP is stagnating because Sins are simply good enough at it that I don't have to stay on my toes. The only people who give my Sin any trouble are the heavy cash shoppers that **** everyone else anyway, and as soon as I get 5 APS and +10 daggers, the only real people I see being a problem are the heavy CSing Psys. That's not what I want. I want to learn to be a better Sin.

Bioturn - Heavens Tear

The main thing I have with sins is they really shouldn't have BP. That's the main point of it all. Are you saying they are vampires, who can steal the life of those they attack? They are Assassin's, who are known directly for killing from the shadows, using any means necessary. How about instead of BP, give them a weapon buff skill, that imbues their weapon with poison, and deals 5% extra damage, at the cost of 1% crit rate? Heck, even just make it so the weapon buff gives their daggers bleed infliction. You know it would be more fair, and at least that would make them closer to an equal class to the rest.

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

Bloodpaint stays. Non-negotiable. (Just give it to archers, too, whether they're using a bow or not.)

Evict - Heavens Tear

Bioturn - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Heck, even just make it so the weapon buff gives their daggers bleed infliction. You know it would be more fair, and at least that would make them closer to an equal class to the rest.

It would have to do Nix Bleed damage and be stackable.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The closest "duct-tape-it-till-it-works" fix that I can think of is to give Earthguard enough detection levels to detect Sins their same level, and to give Seekers better protection against status effects, so that the EG would become something of a natural predator towards Assassins. It wouldn't fix 1v1 PVP against Sins for the old classes, though; for that, the best fix would probably be more class-specific Genie skills that purify stuns and silences/reflect a heinous amount of damage for a short time/grant detection levels.

Coupled with some sort of balanced debuff for Sins in stealth (movement debuff is the most balanced suggestion I've seen so far, and is common in a great many other games, MMOs or not), I'd think these changes would go a long way in balancing Sins.

I agree with you on all of this

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

I agree with you on all of this

Only real problem with the genie skill ideas is that stun/silence purifies effective enough to counteract Sins would destroy BMs, and damage reflect abilities on melee attacks would catch BMs, Barbs, and Clawrchers too. The reflect damage could probably be coded to only reflect dagger damage (and would be restricted from Psys, since they're already a beast if properly equipped), but coding a debuff purify that only acts upon debuffs casted by Sin skills would be an utter nightmare and would probably exacerbate server lag (since the servers would have to recall how a status effect arose, rather than discarding that information after "Sin skill > Debuff" code ran).

A genie-based detection level skill is probably the most balanced (given that detection level apo is an utter joke as per its exclusivity to certain territories, and its shared timer with other, more useful apo), but shouldn't be the only buff to older classes.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Only real problem with the genie skill ideas is that stun/silence purifies effective enough to counteract Sins would destroy BMs, and damage reflect abilities on melee attacks would catch BMs, Barbs, and Clawrchers too. The reflect damage could probably be coded to only reflect dagger damage (and would be restricted from Psys, since they're already a beast if properly equipped), but coding a debuff purify that only acts upon debuffs casted by Sin skills would be an utter nightmare and would probably exacerbate server lag (since the servers would have to recall how a status effect arose, rather than discarding that information after "Sin skill > Debuff" code ran).

A genie-based detection level skill is probably the most balanced (given that detection level apo is an utter joke as per its exclusivity to certain territories, and its shared timer with other, more useful apo), but shouldn't be the only buff to older classes.

See my last post.

And yes, you shined the light on the big problem;
How do we nerf sins without crippling other mele classes?

It's harder than people think. A detection genie skill is always useful though.

And yes you're right: the cost, shared timer, and exclusivity of detection potions make them a joke.

vristion

A simple fix would have been to give seekers a 79 skill/buff that detects sins, and do away with that semi useless self heal spell... seeker could then well..seek out sins...

Adroit - Lost City

As badly as sins do need a nerf, I actually sent frankie a pm a few days ago asking basically if there were any plans be talked about for nerfing. He says he hasn't heard about any plans dealing with class balance, so I can only assume PWE thinks that having a grotesquely OP class will make them more money than balancing the game (and they are probably right). Whining/complaining has very little impact when their wallets are full.

unnknow

Lets take it this way.When were our suggestions heard anyway?

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

We need to approach this differently.

Maybe we should hold international Kill a Sin day to raise awareness for our cause >:D

Jenovadeath - Lost City

b:chuckle yes but the thing is all those grossly geared to the teeth well played sins don't have to charge gold anymore as its too easy to farm coin and buy others gold that can't readily farm it as easily making it to where they don't have to charge zen at all themselves again.

Why would they when they can make 25-100 mil a day farming if they realy wanted too. Yes it does take a bit of coin to get to that point but once there its easy mode never needing any reason to charge zen again.b:surrender

Evil_Guy - Dreamweaver

QQ moar .. just make sin like me and shut up b:bye

i really cant get why all QQ about sins/aps/packs ..b:surrender

lastwarrior85

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

They do. That's not even a debate anymore, it truly isn't. At this point even Sins joke about how OP they are.
Sins are the best class in the game for PvE and PvP. Every other class in the game is balanced where they might be good in PvP, but excellent in PvE. And others are excellent in PvP, but just alright in PvE.
An example would be wizards. Obviously we're excellent in PvP (especially mass PvP) but we're a joke in 90% of all instances in the game.
Another example would be Blademasters. They're excellent in PvE with 5aps, but they aren't that great in PvP. I know there's good PvP Bms, but rarely can equally geared bms beat an equally geared caster.

But then you have sins. They may not be the best in mass PvP, but they dominate 1v1 (with the possible exception of r9 +12 psychics). And then they have 5aps and BP, which makes them a force in PvE.

Basically, Sin is the class you play if you want to play PWI on easy mode.


So what is there to do?
The sins need some form of nerf.

Now I don't really know how to nerf them in PvE, so let's look at PvP and their skills.

Tackling Slash- deal some extra damage, paralyze the opponent, and gain 50 chi? Are you kidding me? A paralyze skill on any other class would cost chi, probably a spark. Why is this one giving chi? Make this skill take 25-50 chi, not give it.

Focus Mind/Tidal Protection- skills that give you a 25/50% chance to avoid any damage/status ailment respectively. They have no drawback. No chi cost and the cooldowns are fairly low. Not sure how to nerf these, just know that they're OP.

Stealth- PWI is the only game I know of where stealthing not only has zero drawbacks, it rewards you with a spark. Originally the mp cost was obviously meant to be a balancing factor, but that's out the window. Between mantou, cleric buffs, and mana potions mp cost is a nonfactor.
A simple way to nerf stealth used in other games is to give a large speed debuff to Sins while they're in stealth.
It won't stop them from running from fights, but it makes it harder for them to stealth gank someone, force them to use up their AD/Apoth, restealth, and kill them after it wears off.
Another way to nerf stealthing would be to freeze all cooldowns while the sin is in stealth. A lot of sins will force stealth, hover around their target until everything is cooldowned, then just try again.

Deaden Nerves- survive a killing blow by getting back 20% hp. Makes a charm bypass impossible. Only balancing factor is the long cooldown, which atm is a joke since Sins can go into their own personal safe zone (stealth) until the cooldown is over.
To nerf it, I'd say to make it paralyze the sin for 4seconds on activation.


All suggestions for nerfs are just first thoughts, and I don't think they're the 100% be all end all solutions.
If you have a better one, suggest it.
I also don't think every single one needs to be implemented. We don't want to kill off sins, just nerf them.

here's another QQ thread again. mods please close it. the people who complain about sins being overpowered are the ones who cash shop a lot and think they cud beat people by cash shop. learn how to play ur class. i'm not a sin myself and not a cash shopper and i have no problem in pvp against sins. and lastly they are called assassins, hence they shud rule in PvP. As for PVE the ones who can't get to instances are the loners. i'm not an aps class myself and it's easy for me to get to squads because i'm friendly

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

A Sin!

get him!!!!
*grabs pitchfork and torch*

Evil_Guy - Dreamweaver

why do i bother replying ? ..

Adroit - Lost City

Evil_Guy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

to the OP: sins are great in 1vs1 nothing else .. doesnt matter if its pvp/pve just 1 vs 1 so they are useless in mass pvp/pve so its pretty balanced.
QQ on BP ? every class have some buffs if its one of reasons to QQ just make sin on 2nd acc to bp yourself

To the note .. every class can be OP if its played by exp player with epic gear ..
PWe know what they do .. stop the QQ couse u are failers b:thanks

PS: if there wasnt any 5aps bm/sins where will you get cheap mats ? oh venos ofc .. now QQ venos are op they can solo anything .. and we go around the circle

posts like these make my eyes bleed. The stupidity.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Evil_Guy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

why do i bother replying ? ..

LOL i'm just playing with you

I lost interest in this issue a long time ago.
I coexist with my aquatic brethren...aka, I came to terms with sins a while ago.

I'm just bored and trying to amuse myself.

WnbTank - Archosaur

lastwarrior85 wrote: »

here's another QQ thread again. mods please close it. the people who complain about sins being overpowered are the ones who cash shop a lot and think they cud beat people by cash shop. learn how to play ur class. i'm not a sin myself and not a cash shopper and i have no problem in pvp against sins. and lastly they are called assassins, hence they shud rule in PvP. As for PVE the ones who can't get to instances are the loners. i'm not an aps class myself and it's easy for me to get to squads because i'm friendly

Go away troll.

-R8 sin `cause kitty had to cut charging zen.

Abstractive - Archosaur

I know that the fastest way to despair is by comparing one's insides with another's outsides, and I think it's correct to say that if you compare yourself with others you become either vain or bitter.

Get information: Let's make this wild comparison and state that "sins" are autistic. Think about an autistic person. Boy, do they know their numbers. Most are brilliant masterminds and accepted as being extremely difficult to understand and cope with. Their social skills need some fine-tuning, right ? By researching the flaws and qualities of such a person, you'll uncover methods of DEALING with them, either on a personal or general level.

Keep your composure: "God damn it, you killed me again, ugly re*arded sin !!11111" - This is a prime example of emotional breakdown, and it most likely defines your everyday mental state as a person. At the end of the day, no matter how much time, money and dedication you invested in a GAME, it is still...a game. Force yourself into a better state of mind to avoid serious conditions such as cancer.

krittycat

Abstractive - Archosaur wrote: »

I know that the fastest way to despair is by comparing one's insides with another's outsides, and I think it's correct to say that if you compare yourself with others you become either vain or bitter.

Get information: Let's make this wild comparison and state that "sins" are autistic. Think about an autistic person. Boy, do they know their numbers. Most are brilliant masterminds and accepted as being extremely difficult to understand and cope with. Their social skills need some fine-tuning, right ? By researching the flaws and qualities of such a person, you'll uncover methods of DEALING with them, either on a personal or general level.

Keep your composure: "God damn it, you killed me again, ugly re*arded sin !!11111" - This is a prime example of emotional breakdown, and it most likely defines your everyday mental state as a person. At the end of the day, no matter how much time, money and dedication you invested in a GAME, it is still...a game. Force yourself into a better state of mind to avoid serious conditions such as cancer.

In a more formal setting, this would have made complete sense.b:mischievous

Does this mean that sins are now the psycologists of PWI, like archers are the mathematicians?b:shocked

krisnda

KrittyCat wrote: »

In a more formal setting, this would have made complete sense.b:mischievous

Does this mean that sins are now the psycologists of PWI, like archers are the mathematicians?b:shocked

No that's us lowly venos, contemplating the mysteries of the universe while we walk alone with only our pets to aid us.

Samaela - Dreamweaver

KrittyCat wrote: »

In a more formal setting, this would have made complete sense.b:mischievous

Does this mean that sins are now the psycologists of PWI, like archers are the mathematicians?b:shocked

Wait... Sins are the psychologists?
INSTANT REROLL.

Taarloor - Harshlands

SilverCleric - Lost City wrote: »

Show me any class that can do this.... ijs. lol b:laugh

But its not like its easy being able to do something like that though.... lol >_>

pwn'd

Sins r OP, fix them, sick of being killed without a single hit in my dmg log. sick of them bypassing charm with two or 3 hits after it should have ticked, sick of them having stupid life saving skills half of them dont even use coz they dont need to.

Yes its more QQ about sins, but seriously, every guild is overrun with them, they do things NO class should be able to do (like solo harpy wraith ffs?!) and then you get annoying know-it-alls playing these op chars being total dickheads coz they have to stroke their e-peen alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll day.

Fix it plz?

Abstractive - Archosaur

KrittyCat wrote: »

In a more formal setting, this would have made complete sense.b:mischievous

Does this mean that sins are now the psycologists of PWI, like archers are the mathematicians?b:shocked

In a more formal setting, this game would be filled server-wide with 'sins ONLY, and there would be nobody left to complain about them. Although, this particular scenario is unlikely to occur.

Shalandra_ - Sanctuary

Heh, check the AH. Almost nothing but LA armor/token daggers for sale. This game is sin dominant for the most part.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Shalandra_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Heh, check the AH. Almost nothing but LA armor/token daggers for sale. This game is sin dominant for the most part.

o.o i read somewhere that 70% of the servers are sins. doesnt mean that we lack other classes (wait we do..i want kittys back), i mean that almost everyone has an alt sin..thats why 70% of server are sins @_@

not sure if its true tho..