Proving that 5aps isn't broken

Wizziie - Harshlands · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

The limit to aps is 5, the limit to -ch is 0

I'll use veno as an example since that is my primary toon

atk rate
Claw - 1.43 /s
Venomous - .4/s

Claw is already 3-4x faster.

Now something pertinent here is that 4aps is considered "perma spark (eruption)" which increases atk rate by 25% (demon) making 4.0 similar to 5, (or the advantage -int or eruption dwindles after 4aps). For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume that if the devs balanced other things; then they balanced the benefit of spark eruptions also (aside from the loss of gain after 4.0). Considering this; I think it's more fair to compare to 4.0 since mages appear to have better skills to gain chi while not in battle. Claw started at 3-4x faster and ends effectively 4-5x faster.

0ch may be far reaching. Channeling doesn't get exponential gains and it's not as limited (we have -ch ornaments with potential of -18ch ea). We can get close to and obtain 0ch via RB, pots, and another Cleric skill.

How hard per hit? -Deicide (most common weapon for -int) starts off at a mere 498-673 while something like Dragonhunt Axes start at 646-1508, and the Dragonhunts refine much better. I think it's clear to say that to get 5.0: you must take a big hit in patk (also to note here is that lower atk/hit at same dps increases repair cost). The Neon Purgatory (comparable mage weapon) starts at Magical attack: 914-933. Sure, matk doesn't refine as good, BUT we get weapon atk multiplied in our skills: +500% weapon atk for many Wiz AoE's, +300% for Veno Nova, +100% for Venemous etc.

BMs, and Assassins seemed to have better dps from the start, and 5.0 (or 4) keeps them at their rough % advantage which helps them tank. If there is a problem with 5.0 and their superior dps/ hardiness: then there was a problem from the start!

There is no problem really. They have and always had an advantage at 1-1 but it comes with disadvantages. When a mage refines their weapon: it benefits both AoE and 1-1. A 4/5.0 BM would want to use multiple weapons or focus on one (high cost with refining or limitation). Mages are able to kill w/o getting hit or even before a 5aps can reach the target (KS): Mages can focus more on matk than def/ hp. Mages have much lower repair bills (savings that can go back into character). Mages can range tank with full power (get hit much lighter/ less frequently with mag only).

Not sure about this, but something maybe worth considering since a lot of people consider wizards UP: Imagine 1 wiz in a 4x 5aps squad with Frost Blade alone.:

With a base matk of 16k: that's 4k per hit *20/s or 80,000 raw dps just for the buff alone?

Balanced or not. Developers should think before implying money making craps in the game. Allot of people alrdy spent allot of money getting themselves to 5.0 aps. Changing that will just **** them over causing even more people to just get sick of the ****. because look at this. Who can kill the 3-1 boss that drop Giant Beast Armour withought good APS? hmmm? Introducing Lunar capes (-0.05 interval) and the 2pc LA and HA and all those opportunities was obviously gonna mean the melee would attack faster. It would be better balanced if say. -chan also effect Cast time. even lowering ti a bit because ou have to stack up to -16% or -24% channeling to see a diff in ur channeling speed. thats what? about 4 pieces of gears? even 1 piece of -interval and u see a diff in attack speed. so they better think of a better way to balance this cause introducing something that so many people put so mch money into then they change it= fked up way to make money

Wizziie - Harshlands · December 2010

Here is a diff idea. Each class go to the class trainer to get their three spark. how about demon spark for wizz's give a highr -%channeling seing the cast time put a limit to their dps and BM's spark give less damage than it does now but same speed, and weap such as claw and fist can ONLY be used for bm's and not by barb,sins and archers. thats a better balance right there (P.S. also removing the ability to 3 spark in stealth didnt do much seing 2 spark +wind shield can still put sins at good damage while keeping 5.0)

Quilue - Sanctuary · December 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ahh I was thinking about the advantage 5.0 people have over non 5.0 members of their own class for that one. Ehh never mind, replace that example with City of Abominations. I don't see many CoA rings out there with a wizard's name on it.

That's cuz wizards don't bother going. People picking up is just as important as people DDing, and gear doesn't affect that. I see rings with a certain Veno's name on it, no? (and no she's not 5.0 jeezus)

Qui hun, if your squad has 4 or 5 +10 5.0 people in it already Steel will die in 15seconds. There are almost no bosses in the game that 5.0 isnt extremely effective against. Bosses don't really run around when they are surrounded by mellee. Maybe you are thinking about the first stage of nix boss in nirvana but that dies in 20 seconds anyway...

If a 5.0 squad is going to be taking extra casters first is a cleric and next comes a veno. There is no case where frostblade will be more effective than veno amp and wizzies dont even have hercs.

Not necessarily. Steel can be horrifically unpredictable, and once he 5.0s or does his stun your spark cycle is done. Then it's a very slow and painful process to take him down, in which I assert that a ranged DD with good gear is no worse off than one of your +10 5.0s. Of course you would rather take a veno than a wiz, but still, a good wiz isn't bad when you have good melee DD already. Remember this screen shot?

http://www.fotorola.com/uploads/deb1f78612.jpg

What about Emp's right-off-the-bat seal and melee ranged AOE stun?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · December 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not necessarily. Steel can be horrifically unpredictable, and once he 5.0s or does his stun your spark cycle is done. Then it's a very slow and painful process to take him down, in which I assert that a ranged DD with good gear is no worse off than one of your +10 5.0s. Of course you would rather take a veno than a wiz, but still, a good wiz isn't bad when you have good melee DD already. Remember this screen shot?

http://www.fotorola.com/uploads/deb1f78612.jpg

What about Emp's right-off-the-bat seal and melee ranged AOE stun?

Well ya those can have some random rare deadly combos but it's not worth building a squad around something that happens 5% of the time.

The vast majority of the time 5aps can take down a boss quickly and I don't see how a wizard is going to be at all beneficial the other 5% of the time. Is a wiz supposed to be a backup tank or something? If we wanted a backup tank we'd bring barb and not a wiz.

prof · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

The limit to aps is 5, the limit to -ch is 0

already wrong. it's -95%.

tweakz wrote: »

Now something pertinent here is that 4aps is considered "perma spark (eruption)" which increases atk rate by 25% (demon) making 4.0 similar to 5, (or the advantage -int or eruption dwindles after 4aps).

to archers, it is. maybe sins. not warriors.

tweakz wrote: »

For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume that if the devs balanced other things; then they balanced the benefit of spark eruptions also (aside from the loss of gain after 4.0).

there is no loss.

tweakz wrote: »

Considering this; I think it's more fair to compare to 4.0 since mages appear to have better skills to gain chi while not in battle. Claw started at 3-4x faster and ends effectively 4-5x faster.

what?

tweakz wrote: »

0ch may be far reaching.

0 channeling would mean you have no channeling items. ie: as slow as possible.

tweakz wrote: »

Channeling doesn't get exponential gains and it's not as limited (we have -ch ornaments with potential of -18ch ea). We can get close to and obtain 0ch via RB, pots, and another Cleric skill.

-100% channeling from potions, yes. not 0, 100. all the cast is still in-tact.

tweakz wrote: »

How hard per hit? -Deicide (most common weapon for -int) starts off at a mere 498-673 while something like Dragonhunt Axes start at 646-1508, and the Dragonhunts refine much better. I think it's clear to say that to get 5.0: you must take a big hit in patk (also to note here is that lower atk/hit at same dps increases repair cost). The Neon Purgatory (comparable mage weapon) starts at Magical attack: 914-933. Sure, matk doesn't refine as good, BUT we get weapon atk multiplied in our skills: +500% weapon atk for many Wiz AoE's, +300% for Veno Nova, +100% for Venemous etc.

neon purgatory is an axe. rest of this chunk is useless.

tweakz wrote: »

BMs, and Assassins seemed to have better dps from the start, and 5.0 (or 4) keeps them at their rough % advantage which helps them tank. If there is a problem with 5.0 and their superior dps/ hardiness: then there was a problem from the start!

5.0 in pve is not overpowered, as it's the exact same as the archers who have been 5.0 for years before this gear was released. the reason 5.0 was balanced before is because archers have no useful skills with claws, making it possible to deal with it. wrs, and sins, can stun lock, permenantly, while hitting 5.0. this is where it's broken.

tweakz wrote: »

There is no problem really. They have and always had an advantage at 1-1 but it comes with disadvantages. When a mage refines their weapon: it benefits both AoE and 1-1. A 4/5.0 BM would want to use multiple weapons or focus on one (high cost with refining or limitation). Mages are able to kill w/o getting hit or even before a 5aps can reach the target (KS): Mages can focus more on matk than def/ hp. Mages have much lower repair bills (savings that can go back into character). Mages can range tank with full power (get hit much lighter/ less frequently with mag only).

the only time this is useful is in delta, or doing hh and zhenning ligers for speed.

tweakz wrote: »

Not sure about this, but something maybe worth considering since a lot of people consider wizards UP: Imagine 1 wiz in a 4x 5aps squad with Frost Blade alone.:

With a base matk of 16k: that's 4k per hit *20/s or 80,000 raw dps just for the buff alone?

frostblade doesn't work that way.

did you pull all of this out of your *** or what?

half of the classes excel in dph and the other excel in dps. those dps classes will ALWAYS be favoured for farming because they DO MORE DAMAGE OVER TIME. they are considered FARM CLASSES for a reason. go play a server that isn't filled with carebears like pwi and you'll know this ****.

Born_Free - Harshlands · December 2010

Error 404: Problem with OP thread.

APS was NEVER supposed to reach over 3.33---> EVER.

And that is just one of the reasons why it's broken. Everybody knows an APS character can make almost 6 mil on a charmed TT run alone, while it takes hours for a Wizard or other caster to zhen it. I won't even go into how almost every single Nirvana squad calls for an APS BM to come join squad....or how many times by 101 barb was denied passage because.....he's not an APS barb. <--THAT grinds my gears, I won't lie.

APS has taken away the 'job' from the Barbarian Class-- this is a positive and a negative, positive being that squads no longer have to spam for a barb, and negative because now....the Barbarians have pretty much been reduced to nothing more than a DD class with a ****load of HP that just happens to have the ability to take aggro.....which, they can't do because the cleric who is healing the damn APS character will scream at you for making them switch targets. (As if it were that ****ing hard.)
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the REAL reason why I retired my barb in Dreamweaver--- APS addiction. That's also why I retired my cleric in HT. It's no longer worth playing them because....hardly anybody needs those classes because....
Everybody and their mother's cousin's aunt's doctor's plumber's nephew's boyfriend's sister's father's third uncle twice removed has APS now.

Can you name any bosses 5.0 ISN'T effective against? Go on, name ten.

I won't care to go into how almost every robed class is now a oneshot due to the stealth/APS combo of Assassins. You see Tweakz, you wouldn't know that because.....you have an APS veno, and not an APS Assassin. Roll Harshlands sometime. I want you to meet Okeano. Or StretchIt. Or Dollie. Or the thousands of other APS Assassins who have yet to take the time to find me ingame to kill me. I won't get into how many there are on other servers--the thought scares me.
So it's pretty much broken PvP too. Add Rank 9 to the formula. And NOW you know what all the fuss is about.

Better yet, add stunlock into it. And then the Assassin's ability to freeze you. You see, Archers were never complained about because....they NEED the rapid fire because they're squishy as ****. Not to mention....Archers can't use claws like a Blademaster can. Not even close.
BLADEMASTERS AND ASSASSINS DO NOT NEED THAT ADVANTAGE. They NEVER did. They should have NEVER gotten APS to begin with. It was simply an oversight that our lazy developing team decided to overlook, once again thinking we weren't intelligent enough to figure out just how many boo-boos there were in their system. Players figured it out, took advantage of it, and now, it's a problem.

Like I always say, it's never a problem until it's your problem, and when it is, it's a huge problem. It's not YOUR problem tweakz because....you're an APS Venomancer. (Oi vey, is it getting that bad that a caster class has to resort to APS just to keep up with the Jones's, or to look cool? Maybe you were just bored?)
So you have no idea just how completely broken APS is.

You ever roll a non-APS class before? Try getting it to 50 sometime on a PvP server. Hell, don't even go that far, just hit 30 and walk around silver pool, or West Archosaur. Maybe then you'll see the full prospective of just how stupid you sound defending APS.

I fully agree with Prof on this one....you seriously need to pull that thing you call a head out of your ***.

prof · December 2010

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

APS was NEVER supposed to reach over 3.33---> EVER.

on the cn forums 4 years ago there was a very large debate about how archers hit 4.0 and 5.0 with rank armour using fist. it spanned about 1,500 pages, at 30 post per page. in the end it was determined a valid factor of the game as it isn't very useful in a pvp environment - and the pvp is what this game is.

the new devs they got a little over a year ago ****ed everything up.

Evict - Harshlands · December 2010

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

Everybody and their mother's cousin's aunt's doctor's plumber's nephew's boyfriend's sister's father's third uncle twice removed has APS now.

b:chuckle New signature for me.

Also, great post.

tweakz · December 2010

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

APS was NEVER supposed to reach over 3.33[/COLOR]---> EVER.

-Source? - Gotta check these things because what followed after this was a bunch of nonsensical inaccurate ranting.

*for the record: I have no aps toons. I started a sin, got to ~L62 and quit it w/ 0 -int. My casting classes are doing fine. =P

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · December 2010

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

Error 404: Problem with OP thread.

APS was NEVER supposed to reach over 3.33---> EVER.

What supports this? Sure, there haven't always been enough -int gears to get over it with BMs but those have been added once in a while. However the cap has always been 5.00 aps.

Born_Free - Harshlands · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

-Source? -

Anybody who was here almost three years ago can tell you that BM's were never supposed to reach 5.0. APS was something only archers were supposed to get. It was an advantage made specifically for THEM, because unlike Blademasters, they were easy to kill, had no stunlock, and couldn't run away nearly as fast from a fight.
Blademaster 5.0 was a mistake. Nothing more. Nothing less. They were never supposed to reach higher than 3.33, and any moron who was here during that time period can tell you that.

The only reason why Assassins have 5.0 is simply because they're a rewrite of Blademasters themselves, with a few additional tweaks and a new hairdo. Different skill names, different look, a couple of flashy animations and Harry Potter's invisibility cloak, but the same problem.

I find it ironic how someone trying to prove APS isn't broken wasn't even around before it became such a problem.
But like I said, it's never a problem until it's YOUR problem, am I right?

You want to know why so many other classes can get APS now?
It takes money. (No, PWE GREEDY!? TELL ME IT'S NOT TRUE! OH GOD! b:cry)

You still haven't answered my question Tweekie.....can I get a quick list of any bosses that 5aps isn't effective against?

tweakz · December 2010

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

Anybody who was here almost three years ago can tell you that BM's were never supposed to reach 5.0. APS was something only archers were supposed to get.

Blah blah blah.. -Source? "anybody" didn't make the game. b:chuckle

Sekmeth - Raging Tide · December 2010

Close to 4 aps sparked was possible for BM even before packs sale, though much harder. Only items that came last 2 years were -int tome and -int legs, weapons, TT99 sets, lunar robe were in game long time before that.

And I think a lot of the people overreact about APS. Mages mad about not getting into Nirvana? Sorry is nirvana impossible w/o aps? No, it just takes more time. So why dnt non aps people make nirvana squads? Because they want other APS ppl to go with them. How does that sound coming from people who QQ all the time.

Also APS is not hard to combat in pvp. Yes sins can go stealth, but stealth is not invincibility, u can aoe a npc/mob to drop sin out of stealth, if u in team with other sin in tw u can see hidden enemy sins and also there is a apo medicine to see stealthed people i think. Also 5 aps in a psy might not be wise or risk killing yourself if not paying attention. Yeah BM have alter marrow and wiz has earth shield, trust me a wiz can get much more pdef than a BM can get mdef.

Also another point is that a lot of the high level mats on market come from 5 aps doing fast TT. No aps would mean less mats, increase in price of mats. That would not really be beneficial and would probably discourage a lot of ppl who haven't reached end game to quit and making the game resume only about rank8/9.

The last Rank sales have even the field a bit, still aps are best dps, but there will always be a class OP in something, venos were long time hated for being OP at soloing, not it's APS. People always have to blame something to have a reason to QQ.

b:bye

Traz - Dreamweaver · December 2010

ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »

The point is to show how mages are in a disadvantage in endgame PvE.

I disagree, there is no disadvantage it's an illusion based on "best DDs = more damage dealt in xx time" image that everyone has in their head. So it's not even a by numbers thing it's more of the perception of what a mage can do for a squad. Blame that on all the ppl world chatting for only 4.0+ not the 4.0+ people.

There are plenty of mages that have gotten all they wanted in this game and more... how you ask? Because they know plenty of people and those people know them. They have networked and showed to people they are good at what they do so there is no hesitation for invites or offers to get all the squads they want.

If you feel that you should be able to do the same DD as a -int person and that's going to just magically fix the problem you're wrong. Sorry, but you picked he wrong class. There are differences in classes for a reason and that's just another difference. I'd like to see a -int person hit my barb for 48k in TW.... yeah not happening. There are difference in each class all have their strong points learn to love them or reroll.

The only thing truly broken is barbs not having the choice in controlling the aggro (which is their 'job'), it's on the highest DD in the squad now.

hahahahahahah1 · December 2010

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I disagree, there is no disadvantage it's an illusion based on "best DDs = more damage dealt in xx time" image that everyone has in their head. So it's not even a by numbers thing it's more of the perception of what a mage can do for a squad. Blame that on all the ppl world chatting for only 4.0+ not the 4.0+ people.

There are plenty of mages that have gotten all they wanted in this game and more... how you ask? Because they know plenty of people and those people know them. They have networked and showed to people they are good at what they do so there is no hesitation for invites or offers to get all the squads they want.

If you feel that you should be able to do the same DD as a -int person and that's going to just magically fix the problem you're wrong. Sorry, but you picked he wrong class. There are differences in classes for a reason and that's just another difference. I'd like to see a -int person hit my barb for 48k in TW.... yeah not happening. There are difference in each class all have their strong points learn to love them or reroll.

The only thing truly broken is barbs not having the choice in controlling the aggro (which is their 'job'), it's on the highest DD in the squad now.

First you state how high aps is not broken. Then you continue on to say its only broken against barbs. Seeing as you are a barb yourself. Guess it is true, one can only understand what has one experienced. Therefore there is no point in arguing since people will be stuck in their bias no matter what the other person says. So basically this thread will affect nothing other than pointless talks b:bye

toliman · December 2010

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I disagree, there is no disadvantage it's an illusion based on "best DDs = more damage dealt in xx time" image that everyone has in their head. So it's not even a by numbers thing it's more of the perception of what a mage can do for a squad. Blame that on all the ppl world chatting for only 4.0+ not the 4.0+ people.

There are plenty of mages that have gotten all they wanted in this game and more... how you ask? Because they know plenty of people and those people know them. They have networked and showed to people they are good at what they do so there is no hesitation for invites or offers to get all the squads they want.

If you feel that you should be able to do the same DD as a -int person and that's going to just magically fix the problem you're wrong. Sorry, but you picked he wrong class. There are differences in classes for a reason and that's just another difference. I'd like to see a -int person hit my barb for 48k in TW.... yeah not happening. There are difference in each class all have their strong points learn to love them or reroll.

The only thing truly broken is barbs not having the choice in controlling the aggro (which is their 'job'), it's on the highest DD in the squad now.

Each class defend himself ?

Can you imagine World chat messages like:
"LF Wizard -chan 50% for Nirvana squad ..." ?

I can't.

But like to see Wizard which do multiple blows of boss, like real modern autocannon...

WnbTank - Archosaur · December 2010

toliman wrote: »

Each class defend himself ?

Can you imagine World chat messages like:
"LF Wizard -chan 50% for Nirvana squad ..." ?

I can't.

But like to see Wizard which do multiple blows of boss, like real modern autocannon...

It`s actually literally impossible to hold aggro from 4aps with axes, you cant do it more than few seconds while they are sparking. Now barbs simply wont be able to tank, mages can still DD, simple as that and for that -int is broken aggto wise. I have tried it with 330ish str & R8 wep +6, demon true form(no dmg reduction), demon axe & hammer mastery, demon flesh ream. Thing is, I still couldnt hold aggro from those toons that arent even permaspark but close to like 3.33sparked. That my friend makes barbs useless, what good is tank that cant tank? Oh yeah, that sage sin with r8 daggers +3(?), 2aps, literally sht on me aggrowise, he had to put some lowbie daggers on not to pull aggro all the time, now we are talking dps that is 2x over that, kinda tells story how useless barbs are endgame, going axes.

Ps. I`m actually sparked 3.33aps barb myself, 4aps when I farm TT3-2 few more times for my LA ornaments. I`d have lot to lose would they change it but I tell you, -int gear has broken game PvE wise and with genies, PvP wise too.

toliman · December 2010

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

It`s actually literally impossible to hold aggro from 4aps with axes, you cant do it more than few seconds while they are sparking. Now barbs simply wont be able to tank, mages can still DD, simple as that and for that -int is broken aggto wise. I have tried it with 330ish str & R8 wep +6, demon true form(no dmg reduction), demon axe & hammer mastery, demon flesh ream. Thing is, I still couldnt hold aggro from those toons that arent even permaspark but close to like 3.33sparked. That my friend makes barbs useless, what good is tank that cant tank? Oh yeah, that sage sin with r8 daggers +3(?), 2aps, literally sht on me aggrowise, he had to put some lowbie daggers on not to pull aggro all the time, now we are talking dps that is 2x over that, kinda tells story how useless barbs are endgame, going axes.

Ps. I`m actually sparked 3.33aps barb myself, 4aps when I farm TT3-2 few more times for my LA ornaments. I`d have lot to lose would they change it but I tell you, -int gear has broken game PvE wise and with genies, PvP wise too.

Totally agree:

1. Barbs can't hold agro of squad of DDs with high dps.
2. -int gear has broken game (at high levels).

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · December 2010

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

You still haven't answered my question Tweekie.....can I get a quick list of any bosses that 5aps isn't effective against?

There are actually a few...
1) The Haunted Headless in Abaddon (phys immune, 5.0 might still be more dps with wood apoth / DBB)
2) Soul Hunter world boss (high phys attack but does 0 damage against ranged tank)
3) Primal Fear in Lunar Glade (it can't be properly attacked in mellee)
4) Almost every boss in a level 2 PVE TW (except right gate boss I guess)
5) Eyes of the Krimson Beyond (it will kite mellee)

Heh nothing worthwhile.

NightRage - Raging Tide · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

I'm bad at math, I don't realize that there IS a hard cap on channeling, and getting anywhere remotely close is near impossible.

Neato.

Naivety - Harshlands · December 2010

prof wrote: »

already wrong. it's -95%.

to archers, it is. maybe sins. not warriors.

there is no loss.

what?

0 channeling would mean you have no channeling items. ie: as slow as possible.

-100% channeling from potions, yes. not 0, 100. all the cast is still in-tact.

neon purgatory is an axe. rest of this chunk is useless.

You have officially declared yourself stupid and now have 0 reputation by me as an intelligent. Axe. Lol.

5.0 in pve is not overpowered, as it's the exact same as the archers who have been 5.0 for years before this gear was released. the reason 5.0 was balanced before is because archers have no useful skills with claws, making it possible to deal with it. wrs, and sins, can stun lock, permenantly, while hitting 5.0. this is where it's broken.

the only time this is useful is in delta, or doing hh and zhenning ligers for speed.

frostblade doesn't work that way.

did you pull all of this out of your *** or what?

half of the classes excel in dph and the other excel in dps. those dps classes will ALWAYS be favoured for farming because they DO MORE DAMAGE OVER TIME. they are considered FARM CLASSES for a reason. go play a server that isn't filled with carebears like pwi and you'll know this ****.

charlimit

Wizziie - Harshlands · December 2010

thats how PWI has gotten. they do something to make money (alrdy know what will happen) then they take it out and use something to distract us. E.G. this same 5.0 issue. interval wrist and FC fist and 2pc HA and LA bonus were around for a long time. then boom. Lunar claws in packs, cape and tome, then what next? Nirvana with interval. THEY SAW THIS COMING. now they are gonna change it when Mystic and Seekers come out to distract us.
They better hope they dont pi ss off all those people who build a char, lvl it to 100 and 5ap +12 their TT 100fists for the purpose of farming. or even more people gonna quit. cause New class with same old bullshyt dont make the game any more funb:angry

tweakz · December 2010

hahahahahahah1 wrote: »

First you state how high aps is not broken. Then you continue on to say its only broken against barbs. Seeing as you are a barb yourself. Guess it is true, one can only understand what has one experienced. Therefore there is no point in arguing since people will be stuck in their bias no matter what the other person says. So basically this thread will affect nothing other than pointless talks b:bye

I was stealing aggro from barbs with a pure mag VENO long before 5 aps came along.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

Blah blah blah.. -Source? "anybody" didn't make the game. b:chuckle

I'm still more and more convinced, that you know NOTHING about the game especially before pack era. NOBODY except archers couldn't get 5APS. Also archer JUST with rank 8 armor. And without packs gathering reputation would take years. So? You do better if you shut up.

Regenbogen - Lost City · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

I was stealing aggro from barbs with a pure mag VENO long before 5 aps came along.

just 4 the lulz try stealing aggro from a 5aps barb b:laugh

WnbTank - Archosaur · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

I was stealing aggro from barbs with a pure mag VENO long before 5 aps came along.

Such a valid argument that provides nothing into convo. Veno, barbs can still fight for aggro and maybe hold it. Stealing for few hits doesnt mean venos are some OP dps class, making -int inferior. Thing is, when it comes to aps ppl, barbs can only pull aggro for while they are having their spark animation, no matter what they are doing, `cept clawing themselves. And also, I`m talking about TTs, where dmg delt is lower, thus making barbs job easier. Pulling aggro off barb on FBs/random bosses, no biggie, every class should be able to do it, on TTs, only aps ppl can.

I doubt you have ever squaded with aps toon, even the ones w/o permaspark, cheapsters on 3.33aps sparked, will deal such a massive dps no mage class compare. Sure, some debuffs provide more to squad dps after certain limit on dps has been passed, though for that you need those aps on squad, thus making whole argument of mages usefulness invalid. Would you argue aps aren`t broken, one might say how squads w/o aps manage things those aps squads do and compare. Now we are sidetracking into world of "is 5th 5aps better than veno/mage in (name your instance)?" That isn`t arguing 5aps isnt broken, quite the opposite as on that scenario, first 4 spots would be reserved for 5aps toons.

KandyKItty - Heavens Tear · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

The limit to aps is 5, the limit to -ch is 0

I'll use veno as an example since that is my primary toon

atk rate
Claw - 1.43 /s
Venomous - .4/s

Claw is already 3-4x faster.

Now something pertinent here is that 4aps is considered "perma spark (eruption)" which increases atk rate by 25% (demon) making 4.0 similar to 5, (or the advantage -int or eruption dwindles after 4aps). For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume that if the devs balanced other things; then they balanced the benefit of spark eruptions also (aside from the loss of gain after 4.0). Considering this; I think it's more fair to compare to 4.0 since mages appear to have better skills to gain chi while not in battle. Claw started at 3-4x faster and ends effectively 4-5x faster.

0ch may be far reaching. Channeling doesn't get exponential gains and it's not as limited (we have -ch ornaments with potential of -18ch ea). We can get close to and obtain 0ch via RB, pots, and another Cleric skill.

How hard per hit? -Deicide (most common weapon for -int) starts off at a mere 498-673 while something like Dragonhunt Axes start at 646-1508, and the Dragonhunts refine much better. I think it's clear to say that to get 5.0: you must take a big hit in patk (also to note here is that lower atk/hit at same dps increases repair cost). The Neon Purgatory (comparable mage weapon) starts at Magical attack: 914-933. Sure, matk doesn't refine as good, BUT we get weapon atk multiplied in our skills: +500% weapon atk for many Wiz AoE's, +300% for Veno Nova, +100% for Venemous etc.

BMs, and Assassins seemed to have better dps from the start, and 5.0 (or 4) keeps them at their rough % advantage which helps them tank. If there is a problem with 5.0 and their superior dps/ hardiness: then there was a problem from the start!

There is no problem really. They have and always had an advantage at 1-1 but it comes with disadvantages. When a mage refines their weapon: it benefits both AoE and 1-1. A 4/5.0 BM would want to use multiple weapons or focus on one (high cost with refining or limitation). Mages are able to kill w/o getting hit or even before a 5aps can reach the target (KS): Mages can focus more on matk than def/ hp. Mages have much lower repair bills (savings that can go back into character). Mages can range tank with full power (get hit much lighter/ less frequently with mag only).

Not sure about this, but something maybe worth considering since a lot of people consider wizards UP: Imagine 1 wiz in a 4x 5aps squad with Frost Blade alone.:

With a base matk of 16k: that's 4k per hit *20/s or 80,000 raw dps just for the buff alone?

chu ignit. L2domatt

Born_Free - Harshlands · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

I was stealing aggro from barbs with a pure mag VENO long before 5 aps came along.

Either that barb didn't know how to go into kitty form and use Roar, or he was level two.
Long before 5aps huh? So you must have been around a while, am I right?

....you obviously weren't. Those of us who came before the pre-Aps addiction know how it was before then, and most of us will tell you it was 150% better before everybody and their mom had 5.0. (Especially those who originally rolled Archers in Beta. I'm sure they miss those days where they actually got to use their bows.)
If you were from that time period, you'd know just how stupid you sound trying to defend one of the most broken things in this game.

Have you even stepped foot in a PvP server? I have to wonder. I wanna see that Venomancer of yours take up Kitamura from LC sometime. When that 5aps level 105 Assassin pops out, oneshots you, and then vanishes before you can even figure out where the hell she came from, maybe you might have some kind of fathoming of just how broken APS really is. I can promise you, you won't stand a chance.

You see, nobody ever calls for -chan casters because......we simply don't need it. It's not a real requirement for us. You don't see Nirvana squads screaming for -chan Clerics. Ever. I defy you to find ONE.
So why should every single physical damage dealer have to rely on Aps? It's not right for those without, and it's simply too big an advantage for those with it, save for the archers.

And exactly how many people play archers these days? FAR fewer than before, when APS was specifically for them. Because Archers needed it. They still need it. The problem is, they have to keep up with Blademasters and Assassins. So they get overlooked. And those who played Archers roll the aforementioned classes just to get some action.

Those who say Aps isn't broken are either from the post-APS era, are biased and have a full APS character, simply have no idea what they're talking about, or are merely very gullible. Take your pick Tweakz.

Might as well take Krimson off Aster....if your tank is an Assassin, all it has to do is stick freeze on it, and the kiting is over.

The others I'll agree with; not sure about the right gate boss though.

TigerLily - Lost City · December 2010

Born_Free - Harshlands wrote: »

Have you even stepped foot in a PvP server? I have to wonder. I wanna see that Venomancer of yours take up Kitamura from LC sometime. When that 5aps level 105 Assassin pops out, oneshots you, and then vanishes before you can even figure out where the hell she came from, maybe you might have some kind of fathoming of just how broken APS really is. .

This doesn't make sense o.o

What does getting 1 shot have to do with 5.0 aps? Getting 1 shot comes from spike dmg and thats not related to dps what so ever.

Even if someone like Kitamura had less aps than a cleric you still get 1 shoot, thats the benefits of having a +12 weapon b:chuckle.

Traz - Dreamweaver · December 2010

hahahahahahah1 wrote: »

First you state how high aps is not broken. Then you continue on to say its only broken against barbs. Seeing as you are a barb yourself. Guess it is true, one can only understand what has one experienced. Therefore there is no point in arguing since people will be stuck in their bias no matter what the other person says. So basically this thread will affect nothing other than pointless talks b:bye

A person doesn't need 5.0 to keep aggro from a barb so it's not the 5.0s that are the issue. Hell any sin at 3.33 can easily steal aggro from me and I have TT100 +5 with 2 perfects while they have TT80 or rank 8 daggers unrefined (at 2.86). Sorry but to spend 550m on a nirvana weapon or 200m for garnet gems and +10 a rank 8 weapon just so I can keep aggro from 3.33s and still not be able to for 4.0 is so useless anyone would agree. Barb skills are to blame not the 3.33+ as stated in my last post. Hate the skills and people perception of who they 'need' in squad not the actually -int players themselves. They put in a hard cap of 5.0 but they didn't make barbs aggro skills strong enough to handle those types of players. Fail on developers not players.

Proving that 5aps isn't broken

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