Proving that 5aps isn't broken

tweakz · December 2010

The limit to aps is 5, the limit to -ch is 0

I'll use veno as an example since that is my primary toon

atk rate
Claw - 1.43 /s
Venomous - .4/s

Claw is already 3-4x faster.

Now something pertinent here is that 4aps is considered "perma spark (eruption)" which increases atk rate by 25% (demon) making 4.0 similar to 5, (or the advantage -int or eruption dwindles after 4aps). For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume that if the devs balanced other things; then they balanced the benefit of spark eruptions also (aside from the loss of gain after 4.0). Considering this; I think it's more fair to compare to 4.0 since mages appear to have better skills to gain chi while not in battle. Claw started at 3-4x faster and ends effectively 4-5x faster.

0ch may be far reaching. Channeling doesn't get exponential gains and it's not as limited (we have -ch ornaments with potential of -18ch ea). We can get close to and obtain 0ch via RB, pots, and another Cleric skill.

How hard per hit? -Deicide (most common weapon for -int) starts off at a mere 498-673 while something like Dragonhunt Axes start at 646-1508, and the Dragonhunts refine much better. I think it's clear to say that to get 5.0: you must take a big hit in patk (also to note here is that lower atk/hit at same dps increases repair cost). The Neon Purgatory (comparable mage weapon) starts at Magical attack: 914-933. Sure, matk doesn't refine as good, BUT we get weapon atk multiplied in our skills: +500% weapon atk for many Wiz AoE's, +300% for Veno Nova, +100% for Venemous etc.

BMs, and Assassins seemed to have better dps from the start, and 5.0 (or 4) keeps them at their rough % advantage which helps them tank. If there is a problem with 5.0 and their superior dps/ hardiness: then there was a problem from the start!

There is no problem really. They have and always had an advantage at 1-1 but it comes with disadvantages. When a mage refines their weapon: it benefits both AoE and 1-1. A 4/5.0 BM would want to use multiple weapons or focus on one (high cost with refining or limitation). Mages are able to kill w/o getting hit or even before a 5aps can reach the target (KS): Mages can focus more on matk than def/ hp. Mages have much lower repair bills (savings that can go back into character). Mages can range tank with full power (get hit much lighter/ less frequently with mag only).

Not sure about this, but something maybe worth considering since a lot of people consider wizards UP: Imagine 1 wiz in a 4x 5aps squad with Frost Blade alone.:

Breathe an icy breath onto a squad member's weapon allowing giving their normal attacks
extra Water damage equal to 40% of your base magic attack.

With a base matk of 16k: that's 4k per hit *20/s or 80,000 raw dps just for the buff alone?

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · December 2010

The problem is when it comes to squading. Casters, as most players, want to have a spot in a dungeon squad instead of doing grinding (or zhening, whatever) alone/in a group. And because they aren't as valuable in dungeons like TT or Nirvana, they will QQ.

Frostblade isn't a squad buff, so even if it was working as you described, people could just ask a wiz to buff them before going in. Some Frostblade talk: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=899942

Vorhs - Lost City · December 2010

I didnt read all the long wall of text since i once calculated that mages got around 1/3 dps of an aps character by accurate calculations.

All i have to say is that the description in frostblade skill is totally wrong, as every good mage should know.

it adds 40% of the weapon patk of the target.

imagine a claw with 700 patk (average +6 deicide).

it means it adds 40% of 700 alias 280 dmg to each single hit, alias 280/4 = 70 dmg on nirvana bosses (with the usual "?" level reduction)

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · December 2010

that's not a proof, that's a mess:
quotes like "there is no limit to -chan" (forgeting about -cast that the limit is 0),
pvp concerns,
a wizard buff while u claim that u will use a veno as an example (some say that the description of frostblade is incorrect) [btw u talk about frostblade assuming a 5aps party; wizzie buff bot outside nirvana?],
random stuff like aoes (who cares about aoes, have u seen any instances that make money that require aoes?)

if you really want to make a proof calculate the following:

1)single target DPS of a 5aps*
2)single target DPS of a mage*
3)multiple target DPS of a 5aps (for 10,20,30 mobs)
4)multiple target DPS of a mage (for 10,20,30 mobs)
5)maximum coins/h of a 5aps
6)maximum coins/h of a mage

for 5-6 u will want to calculate something like:
t = (target hp)/DPS + interval between targets (luring mobs to aoe, teleporting in nirvana etc)
coins/h = (value of target's drops)/t

to calculate the value of the drops use the formula:
value = Sum of all (drop value) * (chance to drop%)

or you can just make a poll and see that 5aps classes can easily make ~6mil/h while mages make less than 1mil

all in all, the only thing that this thread proves is that you are not an archer

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver · December 2010

Frost Blade buff actually DOESN'T use magic attack to determin the damage it adds, of the caster, OR the recepiant. IIRC it works like Blazing Arrow, adding a % of weapon damage onto the attack in elemental damage. Did some testing actually whacking mobs with my weapon on my Wiz, and needless to say, 12% of 3-4K added onto my weapon would be nociable (test mobs I hit for 400-550 damage without it, and not a whole lot more with it). Would expect at least 2-300 more damage, didn't ever get to 600 damage with it on.

Also, I think a big problem with -chan is there's not a whole lot of gear with it that also has good defenses/other adds, unlike -int.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · December 2010

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Also, I think a big problem with -chan is there's not a whole lot of gear with it that also has good defenses/other adds, unlike -int.

imho the big problem with -chan is that it doesnt affect casting time (making it useless for class like psys too). even wizzies cant get a lot of dps even with max -chan.

i agree that the reason that -int chars can actually solo is that they dont sacrifice their defenses too much.
making a lot of coins to afford g11+ gems and huge refines is another reason ofc

IF -chan was -chancast at around -60%chan we would have perma-sparked mages.
(and need a TON of +aggro ornaments for barbs; provocative dresses perhaps? troll outfits? rofl)

TrueJustice - Harshlands · December 2010

0ch may be far reaching. Channeling doesn't get exponential gains and it's not as limited (we have -ch ornaments with potential of -18ch ea). We can get close to and obtain 0ch via RB, pots, and another Cleric skill.

I have never even seen gears with 2x -6% channeling.
You are talking like 3x -6% gears are available for everyone.

Mages are able to kill w/o getting hit or even before a 5aps can reach the target (sin is hiding anyway and blademaster uses lvl 11 marrow which makes them tough) (KS): Mages can focus more on matk than def/ hp. (glass cannons still suck in pvp >.<) Mages have much lower repair bills (savings that can go back into character). (5aps toons make much more $ in tt/nirvana than a wizard can save through low repair bill)

Not sure about this, but something maybe worth considering since a lot of people consider wizards UP: Imagine 1 wiz in a 4x 5aps squad with Frost Blade alone.:
Quote:
Breathe an icy breath onto a squad member's weapon allowing giving their normal attacks
extra Water damage equal to 40% of your base magic attack.

With a base matk of 16k: that's 4k per hit *20/s or 80,000 raw dps just for the buff alone?

Frostblade doesn't work like that.
Imagine your base magic attack is 12k and you buff a lvl 1 sin with Frostblade.... he would do 3000+ with a single hit =.=

You only proved that you lack knowledge. And 5aps makes this game unbalanced.

Meyki - Sanctuary · December 2010

b:surrender we have been trolled

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · December 2010

Meyki - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:surrender we have been trolled

eh, it was fun; sometimes i rickroll myself b:avoid

tweakz · December 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

The problem is when it comes to squading. Casters, as most players, want to have a spot in a dungeon squad instead of doing grinding (or zhening, whatever) alone/in a group. And because they aren't as valuable in dungeons like TT or Nirvana, they will QQ.

Casters are better in Warsong and comparable in other areas if they are as invested and well built. We just lack the propaganda like "exponential gain, capped, 5.0" etc. A good caster will get recognized and have opportunities from reliable people based on that. Dispelling the misconception that 5aps changes much may help as well.

As a veno, I could blame other venos for our lack of demand. Simple things like Amp timed with others like Ironwood, Tangling Mire or Extreme Poison can boost a squad's effectiveness dramatically. Most venos I've seen in action are a waste of squad space; when even a poorly equipped one can contribute to major gains. 5aps is no brainer: It's just hard to be 5aps and fail / lazy.

tweakz · December 2010

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

or you can just make a poll and see that 5aps classes can easily make ~6mil/h while mages make less than 1mil

I can make much more than 1m per hour in more ways than one as a caster.

all in all, the only thing that this thread proves is that you are not an archer

I out dps most archers I squad with 1-1 w/o pet as veno.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

imho the big problem with -chan is that it doesnt affect casting time (making it useless for class like psys too). even wizzies cant get a lot of dps even with max -chan.

That's why I showed that the % difference hasn't changed much between starting and best case scenarios. (3-4x faster).

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver · December 2010

TrueJustice - Harshlands wrote: »

I have never even seen gears with 2x -6% channeling.
You are talking like 3x -6% gears are available for everyone.

Isn't there like a 0.03% chance of OHT rings (or 0.1% for neck belt) (if they have 3 add-ons) for all three to be -chan? Which, if i did the math right, would be a 0.0003% for max -chan on the ornaments, not including the chances of actually getting 3 adds on all four to start with.
On a side note, you have a 0.003% chance of getting a scroll of Tome out of Tiger packs.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

I can make much more than 1m per hour in more ways than one as a caster.

I out dps most archers I squad with 1-1 w/o pet as veno.

caster -> veno ? i wasnt really refering to venos when i said mage tbh.
also, i dont mean that u will join a 5aps faction/friend nirvana party.

we are not talking about most archers, we are talking about 5aps archers.

by all means, if u can provide numbers that show that your veno out-dps (single targets) a 5aps archer (using spells, not fists; and i dont consider that the amplify bonus from the whole squad) go ahead and post them plz. i always was fond of venos so rolling one would give me more pleasure than rolling a 5aps.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · December 2010

It's not just 5.0aps, it's 5.0 aps plus the ability to permaspark. Demon spark adds 500% weapon attack, thats the same weapon attack multiple on a wizards Black Ice Dragon Strike. 500% weapon attack bonus not on an ultimate skill but on every attack, at 5 attacks every second.

Anyway 5.0 permasparked is about 9 times more DPS than the base dps of 1.43 aps unsparked you examined. Tell me what -channeling gear is there available that can give a caster 9 times more DPS than their base DPS?

Things would be more even if we are talking about AOEing multiple mobs. The only instance where this is really necessary is Rebirth Delta. Go have fun doing that obsolete instance while the 5aps classes are making hundreds of millions in Nirvana / 3-3 / Lunar Glade / Tiger Event.

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary · December 2010

5.0 barb here.
Soloed FCC in 45 mins.
3-2 in an hour.
All without charm.

Can a caster do that?
Even thought I am 5.0 but I'd be lying if I say it isn't broken PvE.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · December 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's not just 5.0aps, it's 5.0 aps plus the ability to permaspark. Demon spark adds 500% weapon attack, thats the same weapon attack multiple on a wizards Black Ice Dragon Strike. 500% weapon attack bonus not on an ultimate skill but on every attack, at 5 attacks every second.

Anyway 5.0 permasparked is about 9 times more DPS than the base dps of 1.43 aps unsparked you examined. Tell me what -channeling gear is there available that can give a caster 9 times more DPS than their base DPS?

Things would be more even if we are talking about AOEing multiple mobs. The only instance where this is really necessary is Rebirth Delta. Go have fun doing that obsolete instance while the 5aps classes are making hundreds of millions in Nirvana / 3-3 / Lunar Glade / Tiger Event.

well, casters can make coins in the tiger event (oh wait, r8 sale)
it would be a problem for non-int int classes though

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

Casters are better in Warsong and comparable in other areas if they are as invested and well built. We just lack the propaganda like "exponential gain, capped, 5.0" etc. A good caster will get recognized and have opportunities from reliable people based on that. Dispelling the misconception that 5aps changes much may help as well.

TT and Nirvana are the best money makers. A good veno (especially 5 aps b:chuckle) has a decent chance to get in those but for example wizards will have a hard time getting the best squads, for example the ones with 6 sins or such. Everyone can do Nirvana and TT, they just don't like the fact that they can't do it as fast as others.

Roseary - Sanctuary · December 2010

I didn't read everything, but I have a feeling someone somewhere forgot about cooldown on skills. Don't matter how fast you can channel, you're spells still need to cool down.

tweakz · December 2010

Roseary - Sanctuary wrote: »

I didn't read everything, but I have a feeling someone somewhere forgot about cooldown on skills. Don't matter how fast you can channel, you're spells still need to cool down.[/COLOR]

Venomous Cast: 1s, Cooldown: 1s. -Didn't forget: it's not an issue.

Kupuntu wrote:

TT and Nirvana are the best money makers.

The wealthiest BM (5.0) I know told me that it was his catshop that was. IF you're 5.0; you're kinda limited to those rather boring methods it seems.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · December 2010

tweakz wrote: »

The wealthiest BM (5.0) I know told me that it was his catshop that was. IF you're 5.0; you're kinda limited to those rather boring methods it seems.

I was referring to PvE-related money making methods. My mistake.

Anyway... it is possible that there is a better way to make money with, say, grinding. Even if it was superior to Nirvana for most classes people would still QQ; it's not about making money, it's about making money in a squad with a popular method. They heard that Nirvana makes a lot of money and now they can't take it that they can't join fast Nirvana squads.

They could always use that popular way of getting fast squads: ask for 5 aps DDs in WC although they themselves are badly geared/low-aps/caster chars. Leeching at its best, eh?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · December 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's not just 5.0aps, it's 5.0 aps plus the ability to permaspark. Demon spark adds 500% weapon attack, thats the same weapon attack multiple on a wizards Black Ice Dragon Strike. 500% weapon attack bonus not on an ultimate skill but on every attack, at 5 attacks every second.

Anyway 5.0 permasparked is about 9 times more DPS than the base dps of 1.43 aps unsparked you examined. Tell me what -channeling gear is there available that can give a caster 9 times more DPS than their base DPS?

Things would be more even if we are talking about AOEing multiple mobs. The only instance where this is really necessary is Rebirth Delta. Go have fun doing that obsolete instance while the 5aps classes are making hundreds of millions in Nirvana / 3-3 / Lunar Glade / Tiger Event.

This pretty much covers it. Dunno what in their right mind OP was thinking.

/thread

Quilue - Sanctuary · December 2010

Lets really take a look at what a well-geared wizard can do. First of all, Frost Blade's damage contribution is not to be underestimated. Assuming you have 4 claw users at 5.0 with +10 Deicides, that's about 50k raw DPS from each claw user.

lvl 10 Frost Blade applied to each of these claw users adds about 8k DPS, Demon Frost Blade would add about 10k DPS. Without doing anything at all, a Demon Wizard will have contributed 10k DPS already. That effectively doubles the DPS contribution of a Demon Wizard with no -chan and only a +10 R8

Suppose the Demon Wiz has -50 chan, DPS contribution from Pyro + Gush spam really only goes up by 5k, however, now we can explore other possibilities. Pyro + Divine with -50 chan is 35 chi total and 16k DPS, 3 cycles of this means you are ready to single spark. 3 cycles of Pyro + Divine takes 10.9s with -50% chant assuming Demon Pyro and Demon Divine. Since Single Spark takes 1s channel, you are essentially at perma single spark.

That puts the Demon Wiz's DPS contribution to about 20k, add the Frost Blade, and a Demon Wiz can do about 30k total DPS by single sparking and casting Frost Blade to every other party member with +10 weapons. Of course there may be ways to get better DPS with wizards, but this is a sustainable way for an extended period of time, something that fits the situation of DDing at a boss.

Consider the fact that if a boss moves (say ****** Steelation), the DPS of claw users become lowered considerably for a period of time since their spark cycle becomes broken. Although the contribution from Frost Blade is lowered as well, the claw DD themselves are not doing much either. That puts the Demon Wiz with -50% chant at decent footing compared to the claw users.

Now, not everyone has -50% chan, not every party has 4 +10 claw DDs either. The point of my post is that wizards should do what they can, instead of being so defeatist; other people should realize that once they have a fast squad of a few good DDs, additional members can really come out of any class and the run will still be good. Venos can Debuff and Amp, wizards can give Frost Blade, non 5.0 physical classes can contribute in their own ways. You don't need 5 5.0s for fast runs.

foruname · December 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

That puts the Demon Wiz with -50% chant at decent footing compared to the claw users.

In conclusion, level your damn Frost Blade people

Just by looking at weapon damage multiplier:
weapon 100%+demon spark 500%+mastery 60%+barb 30%=690% weapon attack
690%+50% demon frostblade=740% weapon attack with a wizard

The improvement from 740%->690% is only 7.25% (1-740/690).
Which means that for each 5 aps in the party, the wizzy contribution increases by 7.25% of what a 5 aps dd can do if those aps dds do the same damage.

Assuming there are FIVE 5aps dds and NO cleric at all, the wizard would only gain 36.25% of what a SINGLE 5 aps is capable of.
Which means the wizard would need to be capable of doing 63.75% of the damage a single 5 aps can do to be an effective replacement. BUT I don't see how the wizard is capable of reaching even half of that 63.75% with your -chan figures.

Could you post more figures on how you possibly came to this conclusion of "decent footing"?

Quilue - Sanctuary · December 2010

Not every boss is stationary all the time, are they? Melee DDs don't always get to DD all the time, do they? To expect a ranged DD to have the same DPS as a melee DD is to expect too much in the first place, isn't it?

Steelation moves (quite frequently), Emperor moves and melee range stuns, even Armageddon moves.

Minister sleeps, all but one of the melee DDs would probably be asleep enough that even if an attentive cleric purifies them as much as s/he can, they will not build up enough spark to permaspark at all.

How about Nirvana bosses? Boss moves every time after seal, Massive-AOE Boss, Anger Woman, and Phoenix forces everyone to move, which ****s up their triple spark as well. You can't take 5 wizards into an instance and expect similar results as 5 -int DDs, but you can certainly replace one of the melee DD with a wizard and expect similar results.

Azura - Lost City · December 2010

Next time I see a thread by twekz I'll just assume is a troll at once.

foruname · December 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not every boss is stationary all the time, are they? To expect a ranged DD to have the same DPS as a melee DD is to expect too much in the first place, isn't it?

Which boss is not stationary when you have an aps squad?

Minister has a huge aoe sleep but also a short-distance aoe, allowing those at close range to wake up while the ranged dds sleep.

If you have ranged dds, the boss will run around even more unless the ranged dd sticks right next to the boss. Ranged dds that avoid steelation sleep are also ones that cause the aps dds to run around much more.

Yes, nirvana bosses disrupt aps dds but that also applies to ranged dds.

Quilue - Sanctuary · December 2010

Unsparked fists are nothing special compared to other weapons, disrupting a spark cycle hurts -int melee DD MUCH more than ranged DD.

Ranged DDs typically don't get slept by Minister until he random aggro DoTs and moves, also, Minister will NOT AOE if tanked by melee, thus no one wakes up unless they get purified. Suffice to say, the ranged DD would stay awake MUCH longer than one of the melee DDs not tanking.

Steelation could go after your cleric to cast his random aggro DoT anyway, unless the cleric wants to stick close and get slept, so Steel will always move.

Besides, Steel can go 5.0 and all your melee DDs have to move.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · December 2010

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

well, casters can make coins in the tiger event (oh wait, r8 sale)
it would be a problem for non-int int classes though

Ahh I was thinking about the advantage 5.0 people have over non 5.0 members of their own class for that one. Ehh never mind, replace that example with City of Abominations. I don't see many CoA rings out there with a wizard's name on it.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Unsparked fists are nothing special compared to other weapons, disrupting a spark cycle hurts -int melee DD MUCH more than ranged DD.

Ranged DDs typically don't get slept by Minister until he random aggro DoTs and moves, also, Minister will NOT AOE if tanked by melee, thus no one wakes up unless they get purified. Suffice to say, the ranged DD would stay awake MUCH longer than one of the melee DDs not tanking. After cleric and veno probably comes another veno lol.

Steelation could go after your cleric to cast his random aggro DoT anyway, unless the cleric wants to stick close and get slept, so Steel will always move.

Besides, Steel can go 5.0 and all your melee DDs have to move.

Qui hun, if your squad has 4 or 5 +10 5.0 people in it already Steel will die in 15seconds. There are almost no bosses in the game that 5.0 isnt extremely effective against. Bosses don't really run around when they are surrounded by mellee. Maybe you are thinking about the first stage of nix boss in nirvana but that dies in 20 seconds anyway...

If a 5.0 squad is going to be taking extra casters first is a cleric and next comes a veno. There is no case where frostblade will be more effective than veno amp and wizzies dont even have hercs.

Traz - Dreamweaver · December 2010

And I still don't give a **** less if it's a problem or not, I never had a problem getting stuff done on my 1.0 barb or 5.0 sin. Start networking instead of ******** on the forums.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary · December 2010

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And I still don't give a **** less if it's a problem or not, I never had a problem getting stuff done on my 1.0 barb or 5.0 sin. Start networking instead of ******** on the forums.

The point is to show how mages are in a disadvantage in endgame PvE.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver · December 2010

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

all in all, the only thing that this thread proves is that you are not an archer

b:chuckle

lets build squads with 4 aps classes 1 cleric and 1 gimp each :O
this way nobody get hurt!

think of your gimp friends, and clerics!
you want a vit barb pulling catas on your side in tw.

its like 2 minutes difference, wow!

uh what was the point of this thread?
i lost it reading everything, duh gimp brain

Proving that 5aps isn't broken

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