Wizards VS Psychics

Adroit - Lost City · May 2010

Atherous - Sanctuary wrote: »

okay so since a phy can literally sit there and wait for us to kill ourselves with their buff, there is very few ways we can get around this and so far this is the only method i like.

1st use a stun (whisper works the best)

2nd use undine

3rd stun again FoW will do

4th if you have could eruption on your genie, spark, if not skip this b:surrender

5th use elemental shell (this is the most important step and one of the only ways to survive step 6)

6th and finally use blade tempest

nuff said..... dead and Q.Qin fishy b:victory

whisper is sleep, not a stun
FoW is a seal, not a stun

Lets look at how to counter your strategy.. in no particular order
#1. Domain
#2. Have decent gear
#3. use expel (on the psy or the wiz)
#4. earth vector
#5. psychic will
#6. white voodoo
#7. moving out of range (holy path or dropping if the fight is in the air etc)
#8. apoth pots

I'm boring myself with this post, but lets just say the list goes on and on.

Bloop - Harshlands · May 2010

WHY do we have these discussions where anything can happen and a billion different possibilities. I just don't get it.

Shadowvzs - Lost City · May 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

How is that different to what I just said? All you did was add in sparks and genie skills which applies to every class. Everything else you suggested was basically some combination of FOW, sleep, sutra, undine followed by nukes. All you really have to consider is how much extra buffing/debuffing from skills/genie/pots/spark you need before you nuke them with your ultimates depending on how strong your target is.

have alot variantion and combination this just examples but same in psyhic :P i can say taht too u allways use black white voodoos soulburn etc, so ur class skills XD (could be weird when i do with my wizz a hf+headhuntb:laugh)

Astrohawke - Lost City · May 2010

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

have alot variantion and combination this just examples but same in psyhic :P i can say taht too u allways use black white voodoos soulburn etc, so ur class skills XD (could be weird when i do with my wizz a hf+headhuntb:laugh)

I don't see any variation. You sleep/seal, you debuff then you nuke. Every combination you listed does that. And if you think all psychics do in PvP is black voodoo and soulburn then you either have not fought any competent psychics or you are just assuming and actually have no idea what you're talking about.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · May 2010

well a Psy with white voodoo on won't hurt anyone. Can't be hurt, but won't hurt either.

now, there are a gazilion combinations, actions and counter-actions. There is no combo to rule them all. But we have a seal/instant sleep. If it works, good, if not - kite and come back later. Psy's are more like clerics, you need to work around buffs/debuffs the same way you need to work around sleeps/debuffs/IH stack on clerics. Takes diff strategy, but around the same lines.
Psy weren't made to kill arcanes, there are already 3 other classes holding all the cards for doing that .

Shadowvzs - Lost City · May 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

I don't see any variation. You sleep/seal, you debuff then you nuke. Every combination you listed does that. And if you think all psychics do in PvP is black voodoo and soulburn then you either have not fought any competent psychics or you are just assuming and actually have no idea what you're talking about.

y u have right, seal/sleep and nuke... if target is a fatal idiot who wait till u kill him and dont do nothing or 20lv lwoer or without any pot/mana/genie(=> a lame) XD

in any other case they do any feedback XD

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

y u have right, seal/sleep and nuke... if target is a fatal idiot who wait till u kill him and dont do nothing or 20lv lwoer or without any pot/mana/genie(=> a lame) XD

in any other case they do any feedback XD

It's all about strategy and good timing. Nothing else.

Astrohawke - Lost City · May 2010

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

well a Psy with white voodoo on won't hurt anyone. Can't be hurt, but won't hurt either.

now, there are a gazilion combinations, actions and counter-actions. There is no combo to rule them all. But we have a seal/instant sleep. If it works, good, if not - kite and come back later. Psy's are more like clerics, you need to work around buffs/debuffs the same way you need to work around sleeps/debuffs/IH stack on clerics. Takes diff strategy, but around the same lines.
Psy weren't made to kill arcanes, there are already 3 other classes holding all the cards for doing that .

On the contrary, a psy with white voodoo can still dish out some decent damage because their DoTs aren't reduced by attack level reductions. i.e. torrent, sand trap, soulburn and the bleed from red tide all still maintain their full damage while having great defense to turtle. When you stack these DoTs, you would be surprised at the accumulated damage.

But I agree with you, psychics are not the best robe killers and they're probably not meant to be. I've found a lot of trouble fighting clerics in particular because there is no real way around that 20+ second sleep + tempest (for some reason soul of retaliation doesn't reflect the sleep). However, when fighting wizards, I have a much easier time especially given that psychic will directly counters BT, taking out their main robe killing skill. Then it's just a matter of who stuns who and who hits who and in that department, I usually come out on top because my spells are faster to cast.

Paimage - Harshlands · May 2010

a few days ago I basically killed myself trying to kill a psychic cuz he was reflecting alot of dmg and had alot of hp, when I noticed I was in the ground without knowing what happenedb:laugh Yes my HP sucks for my lvl :P

Koolaid - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

On the contrary, a psy with white voodoo can still dish out some decent damage because their DoTs aren't reduced by attack level reductions. i.e. torrent, sand trap, soulburn and the bleed from red tide all still maintain their full damage while having great defense to turtle. When you stack these DoTs, you would be surprised at the accumulated damage.

But I agree with you, psychics are not the best robe killers and they're probably not meant to be. I've found a lot of trouble fighting clerics in particular because there is no real way around that 20+ second sleep + tempest (for some reason soul of retaliation doesn't reflect the sleep). However, when fighting wizards, I have a much easier time especially given that psychic will directly counters BT, taking out their main robe killing skill. Then it's just a matter of who stuns who and who hits who and in that department, I usually come out on top because my spells are faster to cast.

Psychic dots are pretty weak, even though it is a fact they are stronger than the wizard dots, but it's just a less weaker dot. Note the soul damage is physical, also a fact, and damage of dots is slightly reduced in white voodoo(not by much but it is). They will never crit and can be purified(elemental shell. luck plays its part too). Well is a pretty nice way to tick a charm though, I'll give them that.

The only real damage a psychic can do in white voodoo is cast a soulburn and hope the target does some form of cast/attack. Very hard to miss the very flashy and big purple animation of soulburn >.>, not to mention long channel time. Makes it useless in a 1v1, unless your target has never seen a psychic.

My conclusion about a psychic vs wizard is that it would be a never ending fight if psychic is in white voodoo. Wizard will most likely win if psychic switched to Black voodoo but you never know(stone barrier, glacial embrace will always make 1 side of the psychic attacks skill tree useless). It's all about the skill of the player. Both classes seem ok

centennial · May 2010

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

well a Psy with white voodoo on won't hurt anyone. Can't be hurt, but won't hurt either.

now, there are a gazilion combinations, actions and counter-actions. There is no combo to rule them all. But we have a seal/instant sleep. If it works, good, if not - kite and come back later. Psy's are more like clerics, you need to work around buffs/debuffs the same way you need to work around sleeps/debuffs/IH stack on clerics. Takes diff strategy, but around the same lines.
Psy weren't made to kill arcanes, there are already 3 other classes holding all the cards for doing that .

lol...
you need like +10 atk levels to make a difference, and even then, it's minute.
Psychics are dumbed down Werefoxes without pets and with flashy skills.
whoo.

Astrohawke - Lost City · May 2010

Koolaid - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Psychic dots are pretty weak, even though it is a fact they are stronger than the wizard dots, but it's just a less weaker dot. Note the soul damage is physical, also a fact, and damage of dots is slightly reduced in white voodoo(not by much but it is). They will never crit and can be purified(elemental shell. luck plays its part too). Well is a pretty nice way to tick a charm though, I'll give them that.

The only real damage a psychic can do in white voodoo is cast a soulburn and hope the target does some form of cast/attack. Very hard to miss the very flashy and big purple animation of soulburn >.>, not to mention long channel time. Makes it useless in a 1v1, unless your target has never seen a psychic.

My conclusion about a psychic vs wizard is that it would be a never ending fight if psychic is in white voodoo. Wizard will most likely win if psychic switched to Black voodoo but you never know(stone barrier, glacial embrace will always make 1 side of the psychic attacks skill tree useless). It's all about the skill of the player. Both classes seem ok

Psychics have the strongest DoTs in the game so if they're still "pretty weak" then I don't know what you think strong is. Their 2 basic DoTs are equivalent if not more in damage than most non-spark skills. The only disadvantage is that it can be purified but how often are there clerics following you to purify you constantly. Elemental shell does nothing to stop it btw. 10% chance is bad enough but it has 30 sec cooldown compared to 15 seconds on the DoTs.

Then there's soul burn and red tide whose damage is based on soulforce and when even the basic geared psychic has upwards of 15k at endgame you can imagine the damage potential even in white voodoo. Don't even talk about a cash shopped psychic.

Another thing about soulburn is that it's more than just a reflect yourself to death spell. It buys you time. Against the **** wizards I've fought, I use soulburn, they kill themselves and go "WTF". Against the good wizards, I use soulburn, they have to wait for it to end and during that time I'm free to spam my spells which I can do a lot of because of fast casting. Just because they know what soulburn does and see it coming doesn't make soulburn completely useless.

Koolaid - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

I have begun to realize just how ignorant I am about soulburn. So I need to ask some fairly ignorant questions:

Do any defenses reduce soulburn damage?

Does absolute domain protect from it?

Defense buffs help reduce the soul damage, but overall soulburn will always hurt really bad. Petrify effect from expel does not protect you, and i haven't tested absolute domain. I would take a guess that it wouldn't either though

Edit: i know you can't attack when expelled. Mainly directed to psychics as they can cast a petrify effect and still attack, using psychic will.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · May 2010

IIRC if you cast any genie skill after soulburn is on you, you will take damage. If you pot, use genie skills, basically do anything except walking, you get damaged. Doesn't matter it's a spark, immunity skill, immunity orb, or w/e.

This is, as far as I know. Someone who tried them all should confirm.

Shadowvzs - Lost City · May 2010

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

IIRC if you cast any genie skill after soulburn is on you, you will take damage. If you pot, use genie skills, basically do anything except walking, you get damaged. Doesn't matter it's a spark, immunity skill, immunity orb, or w/e.

This is, as far as I know. Someone who tried them all should confirm.

the key maybe the genie purify or pots :P

But which defense buffs help?

(For example, does Stone Barrier help? Does Glacial Embrace? Does Elemental Shell? and so on...)

y ele shell could help if u are lucky and proc than 10% cahnce for self puri. ok 3rd spark help too.

Titan_itachi - Raging Tide · May 2010

Lol there was a topic about Soul burn on the general forums i guess u missed it so lets get it out in the open.The following psychic skills cant be purified/purged :-
Soul of Vengeance, Soul of Silence , soul burn , Empowered Vigor and Diminished Vigor .I think the same goes for Soul of Stunning and Soul of Retaliation since they work like the others but i never tried it .The point of this is if clerics purify cant remove Soul Burn what makes you think anything else would?b:chuckle

Koolaid - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

b:chuckle

But which defense buffs help?

(For example, does Stone Barrier help? Does Glacial Embrace? Does Elemental Shell? and so on...)

Ok, that is an interesting guess, but since absolute domain is nothing like expel, I am a bit confused about how you came to that conclusion. (If it does not work, then I would guess that tree of protection would be our best defense against soulburn. But guesses are sort of useless.)

Physical defense will help with soul damage. Earth and Water shields will gimp half of their other attack skills, so Stone barrier will give the best protection against a psychic.

I just made that guess because there have been so many fixes and tweaks to the psychic skills. They may not be functioning the same way as other class skills

Also it's fine IMO if you cant purify Soulburn, since you can just run when it's on you. Hell run when you see the psychic casting it, so very hard to miss. Even doing a distance shrink away will be worth the damage you take when doing it.

This is me seeing things in a 1v1 situation.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · May 2010

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

Can you post the url of that thread?

Also, I am wondering if someone was trying to purge the psychic or purify the psychic's opponent in those tests?

He tried to use triple spark to purify Soulburn:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=703862

Koolaid - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also it's fine IMO if you cant purify Soulburn, since you can just run when it's on you. Hell run when you see the psychic casting it, so very hard to miss. Even doing a distance shrink away will be worth the damage you take when doing it.

Oh yeah, good geared psychic can haz 35k soulforce, uber 50k soulforce. That's 8.7k and 12.5k damage respectively with PvP reduction. Yeah really worth to 1-shot yourself.

Titan_itachi - Raging Tide · May 2010

Thx for finding the soul burn topic i tried to find it but i guess it was buried really deep.Because our skills share cool down they cant be purified/purged also both soul of vengeance and soul of silence remain after death ,However since the chance to silent is low and the reflect effect is poor u cant really complain about it .End of game psychics with high refine which means high soul force would be a real threat though.

Edit: @cholla only Soul of Vengeance reflect physical damage both soul burn and soul of retaliation inflict pure damage heres the skill description

Soulburn Level 10
Range 28.5 Meters
Mana 255
Channel 2.1 seconds
Cast 1.0 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds
Weapon Soulsphere

Requisite Cultivation Aware of Coalescence
Every time the target attacks, it takes damage equals to your Soulforce.
Lasts 8.0 seconds.

Costs one Spark

the damage is equal to soul force which has nothing to do with any defense type

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Titan_itachi - Raging Tide wrote: »

the damage is equal to soul force which has nothing to do with any defense type

I am actually pretty confused about these some people say yes reduction some say no reduction.
Though from playing i think it has reduction . . b:surrender (pvp reduction)
Around mid lv psychic already have at last 5k soulforce ? if no reduction = one shot ?
Vengeance also has reduction i think and eh . . Vengeance damage is coming from Psy soul force . . 8% of the soul force (50k SF = 4000)

Koolaid - Heavens Tear · May 2010

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I am actually pretty confused about these some people say yes reduction some say no reduction.
Though from playing i think it has reduction . . b:surrender (pvp reduction)
Around mid lv psychic already have at last 5k soulforce ? if no reduction = one shot ?
Vengeance also has reduction i think and eh . . Vengeance damage is coming from Psy soul force . . 8% of the soul force (50k SF = 4000)

Don't be confused. The damage has to be 1 of the 6 types, and it is the physical type. It just has to be 1 of them or it wont work. It didn't take me long to figure it out.

Soulburn will never 1 shot anyone around same level >.>. whoever said that. Bad gears is the person's problem not everyone's

Astrohawke - Lost City · May 2010

After PvP and Defense reductions, you're generally looking at 1/8 of the psychic's soulforce in damage. So no, it generally won't 1-shot anyone unless it's a massive CSed psychic with 50k soulforce against someone with average refines and like 5k HP. You still can't happily ignore the attack though. In those 8 seconds, you can afford to sacrifice some HP to do 1 attack and that is usually to disable the psychic for as long as possible otherwise he just has free attacks on you for 8 seconds.

SurferGirl - Dreamweaver · May 2010

i already uploaded it on other post so i thought i should use it here 2 its not that big of a deal just faw random bids on tw but

show me a psy that can do this

and thats just like 2 out of 30 SS's of this kind

Astrohawke - Lost City · May 2010

SurferGirl - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i already uploaded it on other post so i thought i should use it here 2 its not that big of a deal just faw random bids on tw but

show me a psy that can do this

and thats just like 2 out of 30 SS's of this kind

No a psy can't do that. It's already been established that they have lower DPH. Showing off screenshots of high damage hits proves nothing.

On the other hand, in the time it takes to cast BIDS or MS, a psy can cast 2 of its AOEs for similar damage. The difference is, 3 of those require no spark and have short cooldowns and can therefore be spammed at any time while building up chi. The wizard? One aoe every 30 seconds provided you have 2 sparks. So guess who actually ends up providing more damage potential over the course of a TW.

Plus psychics are getting another 0 spark lvl 79 aoe skill that slows movement and a 2 spark lvl 100 aoe with almost as high damage as BIDS/Tempest that slows attack speed. So they've got 7 aoes, 4 of which need no chi, 1 needing 1 spark and 2 needing 2 sparks. Personally, I think this is very powerful for TW.

Titan_itachi - Raging Tide · May 2010

Ah well i really hope u still are the top dph class after we get these skills

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=727092

that with sage black voodoo which = attack level increased by 25. These skills might not be completely true but a level 100 psychic with sage black voodoo and that level 100 aoe skill all he need to do is use tide spirit to reduce channeling time and increase magic attack at the same time and then a chi pot u know these pots u cant do anything without since 3 of your aoe need 2 sparks and that level 100 aoe skill b:chuckle .Trust me when a psychic get a screen shot of it in tw i will post it hereb:bye

Titan_itachi - Raging Tide · May 2010

chi pots or spark pots gives the user chi and the best way for a wizard to use sutra then an ultimate skill .This combo was the wizards answer to us whenever we psychics say that wizards have long channel time .Well i guess tide spirit >that level 100 2 spark skill along with sage black voodoo would be our answer when wizards say that they have the best dph.Just in case you dont know DPH =damage per hit .u can use the sutra + ultimate combo if u have full chi and u are sage/demon but u will have to use a random skill to get the 2 sparks for the ultimate skill and how often in tw u get 399 chi?b:chuckle.

Edit: Phew didnt mention theres also genie skills to gain chi like Cloud Eruption and venos can pass you a spark to .

SurferGirl - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

No a psy can't do that. It's already been established that they have lower DPH. Showing off screenshots of high damage hits proves nothing.

On the other hand, in the time it takes to cast BIDS or MS, a psy can cast 2 of its AOEs for similar damage. The difference is, 3 of those require no spark and have short cooldowns and can therefore be spammed at any time while building up chi. The wizard? One aoe every 30 seconds provided you have 2 sparks. So guess who actually ends up providing more damage potential over the course of a TW.

Plus psychics are getting another 0 spark lvl 79 aoe skill that slows movement and a 2 spark lvl 100 aoe with almost as high damage as BIDS/Tempest that slows attack speed. So they've got 7 aoes, 4 of which need no chi, 1 needing 1 spark and 2 needing 2 sparks. Personally, I think this is very powerful for TW.

didnt meant to offend u or anything im just over my head with the whole psy vs wiz BS ppl gotta realize its not 2 wiz's its a wiz and a psy 2 diff things nothing to compare with

and anyway its true u got faw aoes without spark and abit faster. but a bid that can be cast with just 3 sec (chan reduce gear) and have a Huge aoe area is b far better then the psy ones. tho once again psy doesnt meant to 1 shot everything he hit with a aoe

imo psy is weaker then wiz but, its a tricky class resis stuns resis phy dmg relfect dmg base to soul force has chance to silence attker etc etc

btw we also got will of the phoenix as awesome dmg aoe. and hailstorm sage/demon. isnt bad either . also demon Emberstorm is pretty nice, and sage emberstorm dosnt even tick u

and not to even mention DB. we dont lack aoe's ourselfs either

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · May 2010

1 aoe that bypasses charm > 2 aoes that just ticks charm and does a little extra damage, ijs

Sint - Harshlands · May 2010

Wiz has Blade tempest
Wiz has elemental shields
wiz has undine.

Psy has no phy dmg aside from red tide bleed. (that i know of)

aside from that, they look fairly similar.

Shadowvzs - Lost City · May 2010

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

Wiz has Blade tempest
Wiz has elemental shields
wiz has undine.

Psy has no phy dmg aside from red tide bleed. (that i know of)

aside from that, they look fairly similar.

Psy have immune skill, voodoo's and fast skills instead nuker skills (and till lv59 archer/abrb dot the **** dmg and purifiable the psy bleed 1 spark and noon puriable)

i am not against the skill but if need only 1 spark then or more cooldown or puriable pls, or will be more spark cost than 1.

Wizards VS Psychics

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