Bms vs. Barbs -Major Respect Lack

Bladecutter - Sanctuary · September 2009

he said "Barbs are no tanking class WITHOUT US" he means that our buff helps a lot, 60% more phy def is not something you can ignore xD

Mazzie - Dreamweaver · September 2009

I am a firm believer that killing spawns is good mitigation and protection. I have worked with Barbs and with BM's and I find the combination of BM and Barb a great one. Especialy if you have a cleric for support or a Veno for buffs.

BMs should be respected. They are the DPS version of a fighter.

Rubix - Harshlands · September 2009

Kyna - Lost City wrote: »

... or maybe the barb didn't have a charm on him and couldn't hit the bm because his accuracy sucked... I swear you guys never think of this stuff...

Charm might have been an issue but seriously, accuracy for a barb fighting any type of BM isn't a problem. Either the bm ganked him, the barb sucked, barb had **** gear, or just didnt have a charm or genie lol.

possibly the entire incident was fabricated; who knows. until i see a screen shot of that happening i dont believe it (unless the above conditions are true).

but yes. accuracy isnt a problem on a decent geared barb

Rillien - Heavens Tear · September 2009

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

The problem is so many BM's don't know their class that we're kinda given a bad name =/

^^This. Maybe it's cuz BM is such a jack-of-all trades type of class, but in my experience a LOT of BMs do not know how to play. Whether it's thinking they can take on an excess number of mobs or running ahead of the group to round up and AOE things to death, I often see a lot of BMs who try to take on too much. As a cleric, it can cause a lot of headaches.

I'm not saying they can't tank, or that every single BM sucks. I have quite a few on my friendslist who know how to save a party wipe through a combo of stuns and off-tanking that's just brilliant. That being said, there are a lot lot lot of BMs out there that just don't know what they're doing b:surrender

shlomo2 · September 2009

DarkSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Perhaps but would I rather have a BM who I have to sit there and hold back my damage and take longer to kill the monster or have a barb that unless I actually try to steal aggro I don't have to hold back?

All it takes to steal aggro from a BM is a good series of crits.

did you know a BM may draw much more aggro than a barb does?

1. i'm not considering refining
2. i'm not considering different levels
3. i'm not considering alpha male

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · September 2009

Kyna - Lost City wrote: »

Sometimes you can't always come across a barb, so what do you do? You make the best with what you have, and that means a lot of times you go in with a BM tank. A pro squad doesn't have any problems with this. Having to hold back is much better than causing your party to wipe or not getting anything done at all because you kicked your BM tank out of the squad. When I play my cleric I do tend to prefer a barb tank, ;D but as a pro cleric I have absolutely no problem healing a BM for the same job so long as it gets done.

I think you are taking his comments out of context.

The original assertion was that one cannot steal aggro from a BM.

DarkSniper replied saying that he can. He did not say that he should, nor did he say that he goes around purposely stealing aggro. He simply stated that he is able to.

Then someone replied saying it is the responsibility for DDs should hold back on damage. This statement does not have any logical bearing on DarkSniper's statement. DarkSniper was saying what he *can* do, not what he *should* do.

DarkSniper replied saying he prefers Barbs over BMs because he does not have to hold back as much on damage. Nowhere did he say that he would kick BMs out of party or not accept BM tanks. He is merely stating his preference.

Then you insult him for stating a preference, which I happen to share. He did not insult the Blademaster class. He did not say he rejects Blademasters from his party. He just stated a preference.

There is nothing wrong with having a preference, as long as you are reasonable about it. While I prefer to have a Barbarian as the tank, that does not mean I will exclude Blademasters or other classes. If it can be done, fine. If it can be done more efficiently, even better. But I will take what I can get.

For everyone telling me lvl 80 Blademasters can tank FB69, thanx. This will speed up my search for a BH squad.

Kyna - Lost City wrote: »

As a DD it is your responsibility to make sure that you don't out aggro the tank. Bottom line.

No. Bottom line is to deal as much damage as possible. The phrase "as possible" implies you do not do anything to hurt the party. Otherwise, it's not "possible" to complete the goal.

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear · September 2009

Rillien - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That being said, there are a lot lot lot of BMs out there that just don't know what they're doing b:surrender

TBH there's alot of every class that doesnt know what they are doing

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver · September 2009

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

TBH there's alot of every class that doesnt know what they are doing

Yup. I've seen 5X cleric keep spamming himself with IH and Wellspring instead of the tank (cleric was not under attack), and denies that he was self-healing when the tank dies. I mean ok, you can't see the IH some how, but the giant purple beam from the sky that hits your head every time you Wellspring...

Kyna - Lost City · September 2009

Rubix - Harshlands wrote: »

Charm might have been an issue but seriously, accuracy for a barb fighting any type of BM isn't a problem. Either the bm ganked him, the barb sucked, barb had **** gear, or just didnt have a charm or genie lol.

possibly the entire incident was fabricated; who knows. until i see a screen shot of that happening i dont believe it (unless the above conditions are true).

but yes. accuracy isnt a problem on a decent geared barb

I beg to differ xD

I got chased all the way across the swamps by a level 9x barb when I was only level 6x and he hit me a total of 2 times before he finally gave up to go kill a more squishy target.

I checked his gear in town too. It was nice stuff. -_- he attacked me while I was fighting a mob and I managed to finish that off before he hit me too.

Kyna - Lost City · September 2009

And dealing as much damage as possible, is yeah, dealing as much as possible without out aggroing your tank...

Which means bottom line is it's still your responsibility to watch your damage dealing....

And maybe I jumped the gun a little bit ... sorry.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · September 2009

Kyna - Lost City wrote: »

And dealing as much damage as possible, is yeah, dealing as much as possible without out aggroing your tank...

Which means bottom line is it's still your responsibility to watch your damage dealing....

And maybe I jumped the gun a little bit ... sorry.

No problem. This thread has a lot of potential to spiral out of control

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary · September 2009

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As I barb, I know that my life depends on the rest of my squad, not just me alone.

But surely not for FB51 at your level, though? I really can't imagine dying in FB51 as a lvl. 70+ barb.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That said, I've been partywiped more often by BM's who thought they can tank and archers "only there for the crits" more than any other reason.

I've had near-wipes thanks to BMs who run in and try to pretend they're Barbs, then panic and run towards the squishies. I've had to Roar/Flesh Ream and lure a half-dozen or so mobs away from a pile of dead bodies on more than a few occasions thanks to this.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · September 2009

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yup. I've seen 5X cleric keep spamming himself with IH and Wellspring instead of the tank (cleric was not under attack), and denies that he was self-healing when the tank dies. I mean ok, you can't see the IH some how, but the giant purple beam from the sky that hits your head every time you Wellspring...

Maybe he hit Ctrl-F9 because he had trouble with graphical lag.

Kephras - Heavens Tear · September 2009

First, regarding the "accuracy" comments by Rubix:
-BMs have one of the highest evasion bonuses, per point of dex. A sword, and ESPECIALLY a claw or fist BM can be damn impossible to hit.
-Barbs get a pretty good accuracy bonus, per dex: but how many barbs do you know pump dex? AFAIK it's common practice to cap at 60. 80 if you're a 'hybrid'. Misty Forest rings are a lot cheaper now, but still too pricy to be considered "standard" gear by most.
For the record, I have 123 dex in standard gear, +Misty ring, my accuracy is over 1500, and I still miss more frequently than I'd like.
/thread hijack - this is about BMs tanking, anyhow.

Secondly: BMs can tank, but their ability to hold aggro makes them less desirable for the role. The OP's comments about how we (barb tanks) are "nothing without BMs" (paraphrasing) is way off the mark, but given the frustration of the situation I chalk it up to simple ranting. Having said that I prefer to run with at least one BM to help catch fast mobs, strays, AOE clusters, or aid in emergencies (such as a bad pull). If they have a habit of rushing ahead thinking an instance is the same as solo AOE grinding, I'd just as soon kick them out - don't want or need that kind of reckless insanity.

In short I don't think it's class inability that's a BM's stigma - it's the seeming "Invincibility Complex" you as a class seem to have.

XylolyX - Heavens Tear · September 2009

As a barb I gotta say I've got respect for the BMs. My job is to hold the boss's attention while my DD's kill him. I've held aggro while a Wizzie crit'd for 30K, yet lost it on another run when an archer spiked a 20K damage. I lose it all the time when tanking for 8X BM friend when he unleashes the dragons. (shouldn't happen again now that I have the alpha male genie skill!)

@OP: BMs can tank, and I respect them for being a good 2nd option for tanking. But it also depends upon their build, their equips and the composition of the squad...as well as the level boss that the squad is killing.

Every class has it's strengths and weaknesses, but for a compromise of DD and tank ability, the BM is probably the most usable class in any squad.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · September 2009

XylolyX - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As a barb I gotta say I've got respect for the BMs. My job is to hold the boss's attention while my DD's kill him. I've held aggro while a Wizzie crit'd for 30K, yet lost it on another run when an archer spiked a 20K damage. I lose it all the time when tanking for 8X BM friend when he unleashes the dragons. (shouldn't happen again now that I have the alpha male genie skill!)

@OP: BMs can tank, and I respect them for being a good 2nd option for tanking. But it also depends upon their build, their equips and the composition of the squad...as well as the level boss that the squad is killing.

Every class has it's strengths and weaknesses, but for a compromise of DD and tank ability, the BM is probably the most usable class in any squad.

Its not the dragon so much my friend as the fists. Just wait until i get demon spark...b:chuckleb:pleased

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver · September 2009

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

I've had near-wipes thanks to BMs who run in and try to pretend they're Barbs, then panic and run towards the squishies.

LOL fail is fail. One of the main sign of bad BM, take over aggroed mobs to squad rather than sprint away and die to save the squad.

Paigrande - Harshlands · September 2009

BMs can b used as secondary catapults... Now barbs are the best class in game for tank nd mainly cuz they got high hp nd agro skills, although BMs r useful cuz they r used for stun when party is getting atked by several mobs, etc, etc but Barb certainly r one of the class with the highest use along with the clerics

Barbs are good at pk nd jus noobs say otherwiseb:victory

P.S. Shapeshifting intensity from sage barbs gives 120% more phy def so u cant say barbs dont hav phy def

XylolyX - Heavens Tear · September 2009

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Its not the dragon so much my friend as the fists. Just wait until i get demon spark...b:chuckleb:pleased

The rate you're leveling, we might be getting our Demon/Sage sparks at the same time. b:angryb:laugh

But yeah those fists are crucial.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear · September 2009

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

But surely not for FB51 at your level, though? I really can't imagine dying in FB51 as a lvl. 70+ barb.

I've had near-wipes thanks to BMs who run in and try to pretend they're Barbs, then panic and run towards the squishies. I've had to Roar/Flesh Ream and lure a half-dozen or so mobs away from a pile of dead bodies on more than a few occasions thanks to this.

I didn't mean FB51 in particular, but FB and TT runs in general.

RedMenace

DarkSniper - Lost City · September 2009

Kyna - Lost City wrote: »

Spoken like a true noob.

As a DD it is your responsibility to make sure that you don't out aggro the tank. Bottom line. Sometimes you can't always come across a barb, so what do you do? You make the best with what you have, and that means a lot of times you go in with a BM tank. A pro squad doesn't have any problems with this. Having to hold back is much better than causing your party to wipe or not getting anything done at all because you kicked your BM tank out of the squad. When I play my cleric I do tend to prefer a barb tank, ;D but as a pro cleric I have absolutely no problem healing a BM for the same job so long as it gets done.

Spoken like a true idiot.

Let me put this in terms you can understand.

If a Barb is tanking I can go balls out with my damage and do everything in my power to kill the boss as fast as possible which BTW, is what I'm supposed to do.

If a BM is tanking then I have to let him get a head start, take breaks from doing damage, basically spend twice as long killing the boss so I dont take aggro.

There was that simple enough for you?

shlomo2 · September 2009

DarkSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Spoken like a true idiot.

Let me put this in terms you can understand.

If a Barb is tanking I can go balls out with my damage and do everything in my power to kill the boss as fast as possible which BTW, is what I'm supposed to do.

If a BM is tanking then I have to let him get a head start, take breaks from doing damage, basically spend twice as long killing the boss so I dont take aggro.

There was that simple enough for you?

Let me put this in terms you can understand:

1. only fail archers lack dmg to steal aggro from barbs.
2. Blademasters MAY have more aggro than barbs. doesn't mean every noob does.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · September 2009

DarkSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Spoken like a true idiot.

She already apologized...

Asmathi - Sanctuary · September 2009

shlomo2 wrote: »

Let me put this in terms you can understand:

1. only fail archers lack dmg to steal aggro from barbs.
2. Blademasters MAY have more aggro than barbs. doesn't mean every noob does.

I hate to tell you this, but only a fail barb can get aggro stolen by a Archer, even a Pure Archer. I have excellent gear, everything either Legendary, or TT70 gear, and am a Pure Dex Archer. My barb buddy, who is level 74, can prevent me from taking aggro very well. Though I have been in TT or FB where the Barb tanking couldnt keep aggro, even though they were 8X-9X.

Myralis - Sanctuary · September 2009

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

TBH there's alot of every class that doesnt know what they are doing

To be honest..... YES!

And Im fine with BMs tanking fbs and all. No problems there.
But people sometimes really got no clue what a class can do...

shlomo2 · September 2009

Asmathi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I hate to tell you this, but only a fail barb can get aggro stolen by a Archer, even a Pure Archer. I have excellent gear, everything either Legendary, or TT70 gear, and am a Pure Dex Archer. My barb buddy, who is level 74, can prevent me from taking aggro very well. Though I have been in TT or FB where the Barb tanking couldnt keep aggro, even though they were 8X-9X.

I disagree. They're not fail barbs but vitality barbs for safer tanking. The archers I used to play with had good refined weapons and steal aggro easily with skills. Some were pure dex archers, some had vit added.

Asmathi - Sanctuary · September 2009

shlomo2 wrote: »

I disagree. They're not fail barbs but vitality barbs for safer tanking. The archers I used to play with had good refined weapons and steal aggro easily with skills. Some were pure dex archers, some had vit added.

I hate to tell you this, but my barb buddy is a Vitality Barb, who has more hp in human form than some level 8X Barbs in Tiger Form. As for the Refine on my weapons, I have +5 on my Wind and Clouds, also have Bracers of Blood Moon, which has -0.10 attack speed, so I hit even faster than most Archers.

Hasukurobi - Heavens Tear · September 2009

The difference between Barbs & BM's is largely speed of kill vs. HP. Barbs have more HP and that in the end can make them survive a bit easier but BM's deal more damage which makes the fight shorter and makes them have to take less damage in the end.

For bosses who use bad Debuffs and hit really hard (especially if your cleric is too fail to purify you properly) then a Barb is required. Otherwise a BM can handle anything just as well if not better and if you have a tiny squad then a BM is way better than a slow to kill Barb.

The other problem is people are WAY too familiar with Axe BM's who are not by any stretch the best of them. They miss a lot, their damage is slow come, and they lose aggro because of it. They also do not have much in the way of truly outstanding support skills specific to their class. The one thing they have is the ability to grab and hold multiple targets via AoE but even this is not that superior to a Fist Master who hits with every strike.

Fist Masters can hold Aggro better than ANY class hands down (NO ONE steals Aggro from my Fist Master even if they are 5 levels my superior & crit (this applies to Archers & Wizards also)). Their DPS is top notch and they can do a fair bit of AoE as well so they cannot be counted out. Their high Crit rate + High attack speed = Massive DPS and they can dodge a LOT of physical blows.

Pole Masters & Sword Masters can nab enemies at range and deal with Kiters far better than Axe Master or Barbs any day. Pole Masters can bleed their enemies to death and knock down their Defense Power while Sword Masters can smack down the enemies Attack Power.

The problem is the same one that always arises...People do not KNOW what you are capable of. All they KNOW is that they were told "You need a Barb for this!" and all they can do is blindly follow that advice. I remember having having a lvl 58 Barb tank Gargantuakongking when everyone told us that was impossible but with 4 Clerics miracles can happen LOL. It is just a matter of adjusting a squad to properly fit the circumstances.

BTW, To OP: You would of course have creamed everything in FB 51 lol. At this point I would be surprised if you cannot solo it.

I go through the same BS as a Fox Veno...Until they realize that unlike the Mage Venos they do not have to Res me every 5 seconds in the FB and I can effectively pin down two enemies without assistance. (And supplement myself as the Tank if need be)

Redmenace - Heavens Tear · September 2009

Asmathi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I hate to tell you this, but only a fail barb can get aggro stolen by a Archer, even a Pure Archer. I have excellent gear, everything either Legendary, or TT70 gear, and am a Pure Dex Archer. My barb buddy, who is level 74, can prevent me from taking aggro very well. Though I have been in TT or FB where the Barb tanking couldnt keep aggro, even though they were 8X-9X.

Spoken like a true archer, who believes everyone hits like he does.

I usually have a solution to squad members like you - after 3 tries taking back aggro from you, I let you have it.

If you're that 133t, then you can handle it. If you can't, then the cleric can rez you later.

RedMenace
\deeply, *deeply* disappointed I won't be able to squad with you
\\Stay Classy

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · September 2009

Your on a newer server with a way higher rate of completely new players that grow up with each other. Unlike the old servers you will not have AS much experienced players knocking sense into some noobs, the population is just too small.

At least on sanctuary ive not seen things like this. For us BM can be a seconday tank if he can survive HP wise. Most of them stack on attack so usually dont have a chaos of a problem with aggro everywhere. The wizzy and the archer also have common sense not to go all-out. They are well liked.

Bms vs. Barbs -Major Respect Lack

Comments

Categories