Bms vs. Barbs -Major Respect Lack

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  • DRI - Dreamweaver
    DRI - Dreamweaver Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    And you can use them all on single character?!?Too much switching...
  • Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear
    Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    DRI - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    And you can use them all on single character?!?Too much switching...

    Yes can use them all on a single char.. A GOOD Bm isnt just a one trick pony and has skills from all the weapon paths
  • BladesFury - Heavens Tear
    BladesFury - Heavens Tear Posts: 154 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    DRI - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    And you can use them all on single character?!?Too much switching...


    BMs are possibly the most versatile class in PW. yea we can switch them fast. shadowless kick can be done weaponless and the rest can be done if u put the weapons on a hotkey. and u can switch anytime once the skill has been casted.

    for shadowless kick is almost instant, u unload weap, press hotkey for shadowless and once the channeling starts u can change to ur weap. once animation finishes woala, ur weap is back.

    while i agree that Barbs are the tanks, it doesnt mean that we BMs cant do a good job tanking too. Our steam strike builds threat (aggro) and we have alpha male
  • Heartstone - Dreamweaver
    Heartstone - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,338 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    SilentWisp - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    As a cleric I personally hate Barbs as a tank 9/10 times, especially without a BM around. Barbs might have more hp but without the bm's defense buff its just squishy. Which in turn makes the clerics job of healing all that hp a lot of work. Its a lot easier to heal better defended low hp, than poorly defended high hp.

    we'r same pdef as bm in tiger .. shapeshifting itensity.. and 89+ with Sage shapeshift. = 120%. lvl 10 is 60% ( same as bm bell). im 13,4k pdef unbuffed tiger atm with mdef orna..( got the sage shapeshift) 19,3k fullbuffed. 16,3k without bm buff. sure bm buff is okay. but not that much difference after 16k lol
    I'm sorry for misspelling / mistyping and grammar b:surrender

    102 - Archer - Heartz
  • BladesFury - Heavens Tear
    BladesFury - Heavens Tear Posts: 154 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Heartstone - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    we'r same pdef as bm in tiger .. shapeshifting itensity.. and 89+ with Sage shapeshift. = 120%. lvl 10 is 60% ( same as bm bell). im 13,4k pdef unbuffed tiger atm with mdef orna..( got the sage shapeshift) 19,3k fullbuffed. 16,3k without bm buff. sure bm buff is okay. but not that much difference after 16k lol

    thats true after u have gotten past lv 89. before that though, 60% less when lv 10 shapeshift is quite a lot as compared to 120% when in sage shapeshift.
    I suppose Silent was refering to Barbs before 89?
    im not sure how this shapeshift works so i may be wrong though
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Why on earth do fist and pole BM's always have to take digs at Axe BM's and prove themselves superior. This thread isn't even about Axe BM's, it's about comparing tanking abilities with barbs... -.- I also fail to see how your double sparked sword crit is higher than the best possible double sparked axe zerk crit. You'd need more than double the average DPS...



    /Thread

    I am not dissing Axe BM's. The damage is higher because sword skills do more damage than axe skills do. Axes have more base damage and generally speaking most Axe BM's have more strength but the skills of a sword BM make their attacks more powerful. The only down side is that they just get a single target with all but their ultimate.
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    My point was, try to out-dps a mage, archer or cleric. It's NOT gonna happen.

    My level 84 cleric tempest crit for 72k in bh with stacked amps. Try to get near that. >>

    I never claimed I could out DPS either. :O Nor do I see how that is relevant.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Cenminator - Dreamweaver
    Cenminator - Dreamweaver Posts: 160 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    the only tank better then a good bm is a "good" barb (which are very few). a bm can tank everything in this game with the right build, biggest advantage of a bm tank is they aren't afraid to let the charm tick once in a while as Falls said previously. a bm can tank their own fb's at the level they get them all the way up, with the exception of polearm boss in 70 maybe. would like to know if any bm has tanked that at 70 and lived, i couldn't and i think i made a pretty good bm. tanked my own 79 with a lvl 70 cleric, quit saying bm's can't tank they are awesome tanks. and all the dd's who want to just go all out, gtfo and waste 2 hours finding a competent barb, too much whining from all you noobs.
  • XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver
    XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver Posts: 505 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Part of the problem with us BMs is that we're not considered as effective as other classes DD-wise, and sub-par for tanks. So we're always underrated in teams, and generally replaced by something that seems to do more damage, or a barb or veno with herc.

    These parties don't realize we provide an extra 60% PDef to the party, that we can AOE and AOE stun, interrupt enemies, lower enemy chan time, off-tank, and I'm missing some - of course, depending of your build and the workarounds you can figure out.

    However, when it comes to tanking, we're not always tanking because we want to. It's sometimes because the BM player does a better job than the barb player. When I team up with barbs around my level (I'm 81) I expect them to outtank me. I expect to off-tank, and not main tank. So when I see myself being able to hold aggro and not die while the barb doesn't know WTF he's doing or doesn't BOTHER with it, there's a problem and it's not class-related, it's user-related.

    Oh I can tank just fine up to FB79 with one cleric... except Polearm 69/70 where with 2 clerics I might pull it off (I'd need to try, anyone suicidal enough? lol). I do more than my share of tanking in my faction, mostly because I'm the highest meleer and people have grown to run with me in FBs, BHs, etc. And even in BH, unless it's in 69 and implies Polearm, you can bet I'll be tanking... because I can, not always because I want to. Because I can't rely on people or I can't find them.

    Charms are made to tick, by the way. I expect mine to tick when I'm aggroing 15 mobs while I AOE grind, but not when there's 2 clerics busy DDing in a FB59.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Due to constant PMs: I'm not German, sorry folks D:
  • Legorend - Heavens Tear
    Legorend - Heavens Tear Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Oh I can tank just fine up to FB79 with one cleric... except Polearm 69/70 where with 2 clerics I might pull it off (I'd need to try, anyone suicidal enough? lol). .

    I've soloed healed a full FB69/70 with a lvl 85 BM tank before. b:victory
    But he did have 7k hp without barb buffs though, that probably helped us out haha
  • MystiMonk - Sanctuary
    MystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Part of the problem with us BMs is that we're not considered as effective as other classes DD-wise, and sub-par for tanks. So we're always underrated in teams, and generally replaced by something that seems to do more damage, or a barb or veno with herc.

    I wouldn't say that all depends on what weapon you use sword,poleblade or fists the other aoe.I would say you are more flexible that way.Barbs can only use 2 weapons.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Oh I can tank just fine up to FB79 with one cleric... except Polearm 69/70 where with 2 clerics I might pull it off (I'd need to try, anyone suicidal enough? lol). I do more than my share of tanking in my faction, mostly because I'm the highest meleer and people have grown to run with me in FBs, BHs, etc. And even in BH, unless it's in 69 and implies Polearm, you can bet I'll be tanking... because I can, not always because I want to. Because I can't rely on people or I can't find them.

    Charms are made to tick, by the way. I expect mine to tick when I'm aggroing 15 mobs while I AOE grind, but not when there's 2 clerics busy DDing in a FB59.

    An 86 tanked it for me the other day, it might have even been in the squad I was in with you, had 2 clerics though I believe. Too bad I took aggro on Polearm at 1%. It was the first time I had a BM tank in uhh... 25 levels so, aggro was... different. Still shocked I managed to outaggro any tank really though on that.
  • XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver
    XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver Posts: 505 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    An 86 tanked it for me the other day, it might have even been in the squad I was in with you, had 2 clerics though I believe. Too bad I took aggro on Polearm at 1%. It was the first time I had a BM tank in uhh... 25 levels so, aggro was... different. Still shocked I managed to outaggro any tank really though on that.

    I remember a run where a 86 BM tanked it, or partially tanked it or something... I had a 87 or 90 BM tank it as well, we had two clerics and the BM still managed to die.

    But I remember doing a run with you very, very recently. Didn't we have a barb in it and we had another BM with us, and all 3 of us were sharing aggro at one point... settled for the other BM 'cause he had more dex than I did and landed crits more often, or something along the lines.

    Then again I keep mixing groups up. But I know I ran with you and I know a run where another BM and I kept stealing aggro from the barb who was at a higher level than we were.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Due to constant PMs: I'm not German, sorry folks D:
  • MystiMonk - Sanctuary
    MystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    I did forget to say that I don't mind a lower hp BM as long as they have high dmge output and can do so than a Barb.The faster they kill the less healing I or clerics have to do.

    This is not to say I don't respect Barbs
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    ... I steal aggro from barbs all the time, and thats without using my lvl 10 stream strike.
    Also, a BM can easily use the genie skill alphamale and with altermarrows we can tank magic damage bosses much better than a barb can b:scorn

    As for phy bosses, b:surrender yeah a barb is probably better. We can still get the job done though if it's needed b:cool

    EDIT: tothe poster above me, I don't lose aggro to archers when I spam stream strike. Wizards I do though.

    O_o

    First, why do you have level 10 steam strike? Higher level of it doesn't increase aggro.

    As for marrow, it's the other way around. We can tank phy boss no problem, just marrow it, it's the magic and phy ones that kill us. Barb can tank them because they have enough HP to absorb once in a while big magic hits or cancel them. Yeah we have Shadowless but the channel/cast is much longer and you'll have to use it before boss showing channel else it's often too late.

    As for the archers, they were probably good archers that knew how to hold back. Any pure DEX archer of your level can pull aggro from you if they spark.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    I have a 12% crit rate. 3% from gears. and I spike higher with my double sparked sword crits than an axe BM of same level ever will.

    By axes BM of same level you mean ones with zerk-crit on Calamity axes? Try compare your sparked crit to a zerk-crit with Drake Bash after Heaven's Flame and Marrow. This is on topic because it's BMs like you that doesn't realize the advantages and limitations of our class that make us look bad.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • Poseidon - Heavens Tear
    Poseidon - Heavens Tear Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Im not sure if this have been mentioned cause have no time to read every post but they prefer a barb because they can keep aggro. Im a bm myself, was doing quinzi and a cleric stole my aggro. FLAME AWAY!
  • Shinobi_ - Lost City
    Shinobi_ - Lost City Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    yes i have to say barbs are better tanks wen they are the same lvl with or without bm and cleric buffs but i think that with bm and cleric buff they will own.....and wen i see a lvl 80x bm and they're red i run =.= unless it my friend xD cause i know they can own.BM DO MASSIVE DAMAGE!!!!!!!!
  • Dustinmurphy - Harshlands
    Dustinmurphy - Harshlands Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    today I tanked most of BH39 till lvl 65 veno stole my aggro but owell who ever says BM's suck can kiss my sweet assb:laugh
    If anniversary pack threads keep getting made I'll keep trolling them until there isn't anymore!b:bye
  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    We had in BH 79 run stygean 3 BM, 1 veno 1 cleric and me and we didn't have any problem with this run. Then 1 BM and veno left from squad and we continued to kill Linus and another bosses. Just with 2BM, cleric and me. And also we didn't have any problems. So BM are not bad tankers. I just need to use low damage skills when they tanking, because of agro. That all.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Lolite - Heavens Tear
    Lolite - Heavens Tear Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    lol Their loss. We had a lvl83 bm tanking Gaurnob (forgive the spelling) in BH69 run with only one cleric healing her. She was doing fine although her charm did activate for a few times.

    There are a lot of good bms who know how to play this class and even tank as good as a barb against bosses.

    Don't get too upset because people kicked you out of the squad or did not wish help from you. Meh, you get more time for yourself then ^.^
    Moved to WoW b:bye
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    O_o

    First, why do you have level 10 steam strike? Higher level of it doesn't increase aggro.

    As for marrow, it's the other way around. We can tank phy boss no problem, just marrow it, it's the magic and phy ones that kill us. Barb can tank them because they have enough HP to absorb once in a while big magic hits or cancel them. Yeah we have Shadowless but the channel/cast is much longer and you'll have to use it before boss showing channel else it's often too late.

    As for the archers, they were probably good archers that knew how to hold back. Any pure DEX archer of your level can pull aggro from you if they spark.



    By axes BM of same level you mean ones with zerk-crit on Calamity axes? Try compare your sparked crit to a zerk-crit with Drake Bash after Heaven's Flame and Marrow. This is on topic because it's BMs like you that doesn't realize the advantages and limitations of our class that make us look bad.

    1. Stream Strike is level 10 because while the aggro effect does not increase, more DPS does increase aggro. I max all my moves that I am actually going to use.

    2. I can tank mag bosses my level with alter marrow. You can't..? Phy dmg attacks don't usually do near the dmg that mag attacks do. Alter marrow magical nerfs my phy def, but because of the lower damage from most mag bosses' phy attacks, I can heal from it pretty easily.

    3. About the archers, idk. Perhaps that is the case, and if it is, then I guess I am lucky enough to work with good people. I still haven't lost aggro to archers my level, and have plenty of times to wizards.

    4. I have a set of axes. I know what they can do. and Yes Calamitys are nice but swords still deal consistently more damage with their skills. The normal attack of axes is higher. I personally double spark as opposed to use an ultimate. DPS is much greater on a single target. However, if I was to use Myriad against Dragons, I would deal more damage than the person using the axes and our debuffs would cancel each other out.


    Lastly, please do not insult me. I do know how to play my class. You can ask plenty of people in Lost City. ty.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Enina - Heavens Tear
    Enina - Heavens Tear Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    I didn't read through all of the post, but I have to admit that personally, I prefer a barb as a tank, too. Only because they are somewhat better at keeping aggro in an equal-levelled squad.

    For general attacking of stuff and wiping out a dungeon of patrols, though, my (and I think most clerics') personal dream is two or three BMs. Can you say Chainsaw Massacre? b:dirty

    I do, however, not follow those who are completely fixed in their ideas, and refuse to let anyone but barbs, clerics and a herc-veno join their squad (plus themselves, of course, so they don't have to do anything). All classes, as I see it, have their purposes. The wizard? One of the higher consistent DPS in the game, and capable of defending themselves for a surprising amount of time in an emergency. Archer? If they are good and knows how to keep their crits under control, they are invalurable in a bossfight. BMs? Send one running down a corridor filled with mobs, and those mobs will just cease existing.
  • Kimmahri - Harshlands
    Kimmahri - Harshlands Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    @ thread creator
    im not against BMs at all, in fact im always teamed up with 2 BMs from my faction and we make a hell of a team in BHs and FBs. i completely agree thats it was very unfair that you got kicked being level 8x and helping a lower level (51 was it?) fb.
    the reason i dont like to team up with BMs i dont know is cause i have been in many situations where the BM decided to step into the frontline(example Krimson or jewel) and the cleric had to divert healing cause he/she got aoed, or in worst case scenario, I had to invoke spirit so that the cleric could rez him/her.and if he/she is charmed even worse(though this holds true to all classesb:sweat). so thats why i refrain to teaming up only with BMs i know.

    ps:kniraven your signature is really coolb:chuckle
  • Aquilonian - Dreamweaver
    Aquilonian - Dreamweaver Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    I freaking love you guys. I have had the pleasure of being in a blamaster army squad on a few occasions. 4 blademaster 1 cleric and me. Although not the most elegant or cautious squads, they just tear a hole through everything they just mow everything down! Fast.

    P.S. Are you guys universally suicidal? cause it seems like its a requisite. Blademasters are crazy!! The ones I know at least...
    "Let's all be reasonable here. PWI hasn't fully kept their word about anything since the "Permanent" Charm Packs. This is just another example. We should be used to it by now." -Isala
  • Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear
    Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Aquilonian - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    P.S. Are you guys universally suicidal? cause it seems like its a requisite. Blademasters are crazy!! The ones I know at least...

    Not really, but some are.. Just most Bm's know that sometimes to save a party wipe they have to sacrifice themselves or their charm
  • Bastrios - Sanctuary
    Bastrios - Sanctuary Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    BMs are just fine for tanks... the ppl who kick BMs when im in squad with them lose me too its just stupid, BMs can tank and are amazing DDs anywayb:victory
  • ColdSnow - Dreamweaver
    ColdSnow - Dreamweaver Posts: 983 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    I have to admit i prefered barbs as tanks and nothing else but recently i changed my mind completely. I have a Veno (NOT with herc) and BM (Swords and not even Axes) and i prefer to work only with them to tank bosses. Barbs are great but a BM lvl80+ can do a good job as well. Sure i get sometimes agro, but hey..i can get agro at barb as tank as well.

    btw i changed my mind cause once i needed a tank for fb69 and all barbs went on TW. A BM lied to me actualy that he is a barb...but i didnt want to kick him. I was willing to try. Since then i have him on my FL. b:bye
    If i m trolling and spamming on forum...then i cant sleep and need a good laugh
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Kimmahri - Harshlands wrote: »
    -snip-

    ps:kniraven your signature is really coolb:chuckle

    b:victory
    10char
    ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    -snip-

    btw i changed my mind cause once i needed a tank for fb69 and all barbs went on TW. A BM lied to me actualy that he is a barb...but i didnt want to kick him. I was willing to try. Since then i have him on my FL. b:bye

    He said he was a barb, or he said he was a tank? b:scorn There's a difference.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,294 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Reading over the OP's post, tbh it just sounds like QQ because someone was rude to him.
    archalo wrote: »
    Respect people cuz to raise a barbs phys def up to tank level you need both bm and cleric buffs. Barbs aint no tank class without us and if anyone says they rule pvp it's a lie. Bms wont die as fast as barbs proven fact i killed a demon barb while i was at level 81.

    I don't see the reason for OP dissing barbs either. From what I've seen in the thread barbs seem to have a lot of respect for BM's and BM's a lot for barbs. We're both melee classes, you guys are the superior tanks but can DD well if you have to and we're the superior DD but can tank well if we have to.

    Veno's without hercs get the same thing a lot too.
    P.S. Are you guys universally suicidal? cause it seems like its a requisite. Blademasters are crazy!! The ones I know at least...

    Yes, just some have better self restraint than others. Secretly every one of us just wants to charge straight into that fb and mass-aoe the lot :D
    I notice it when I'm in a squad facing 2-3 fb mobs and we decide to let the veno/genie pull and I'm like "Sure, sounds good" but really inside I'm like "aww go on! heal meh and let me aoe them! plz! >_<"
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    1. Stream Strike is level 10 because while the aggro effect does not increase, more DPS does increase aggro. I max all my moves that I am actually going to use.

    Fair enough.
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    2. I can tank mag bosses my level with alter marrow. You can't..?

    How many pure mage bosses are there? How many bosses do not melee when you are up close? None that I can think of. Then if so, which bosses do you Magic Marrow and which you don't? You Magic Marrow on bosses with physical and magic attack, like Jewel?

    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    4. I have a set of axes. I know what they can do. and Yes Calamitys are nice but swords still deal consistently more damage with their skills. The normal attack of axes is higher. I personally double spark as opposed to use an ultimate. DPS is much greater on a single target. However, if I was to use Myriad against Dragons, I would deal more damage than the person using the axes and our debuffs would cancel each other out.

    That's all great. Higher DPS, hits harder with ult blah blah blah, but that's not what you said or what I replied to. You said
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    I have a 12% crit rate. 3% from gears. and I spike higher with my double sparked sword crits than an axe BM of same level ever will.

    I'm just pointing out that ummmm no. The dmg Drake Bash can do at times 4 and amp from HF is... yeah...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • Cenminator - Dreamweaver
    Cenminator - Dreamweaver Posts: 160 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    How many pure mage bosses are there? How many bosses do not melee when you are up close? None that I can think of. Then if so, which bosses do you Magic Marrow and which you don't? You Magic Marrow on bosses with physical and magic attack, like Jewel?QUOTE]

    jewel doesn't have a magic atack, just a phys def debuff that stacks which is why alter phys is the reason bm is better(in my opinion) tank for jewel then a barb
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