Bms vs. Barbs -Major Respect Lack

Asmathi - Sanctuary

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Spoken like a true archer, who believes everyone hits like he does.

I usually have a solution to squad members like you - after 3 tries taking back aggro from you, I let you have it.

If you're that 133t, then you can handle it. If you can't, then the cleric can rez you later.

RedMenace
\deeply, *deeply* disappointed I won't be able to squad with you
\\Stay Classy

And barbs such as you are the reason I carry along Multiflavor Jiaozi. b:thanks

Skimi - Dreamweaver

i prefer bms over dd classes in BH because of aoe skills
<33333333 axe bms
less chance for me to steal agro with healing and so much easier to heal than low hp dds

SultryShade - Dreamweaver

Hasukurobi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The difference between Barbs & BM's is largely speed of kill vs. HP. Barbs have more HP and that in the end can make them survive a bit easier but BM's deal more damage which makes the fight shorter and makes them have to take less damage in the end.

For bosses who use bad Debuffs and hit really hard (especially if your cleric is too fail to purify you properly) then a Barb is required. Otherwise a BM can handle anything just as well if not better and if you have a tiny squad then a BM is way better than a slow to kill Barb.

The other problem is people are WAY too familiar with Axe BM's who are not by any stretch the best of them. They miss a lot, their damage is slow come, and they lose aggro because of it. They also do not have much in the way of truly outstanding support skills specific to their class. The one thing they have is the ability to grab and hold multiple targets via AoE but even this is not that superior to a Fist Master who hits with every strike.

Fist Masters can hold Aggro better than ANY class hands down (NO ONE steals Aggro from my Fist Master even if they are 5 levels my superior & crit (this applies to Archers & Wizards also)). Their DPS is top notch and they can do a fair bit of AoE as well so they cannot be counted out. Their high Crit rate + High attack speed = Massive DPS and they can dodge a LOT of physical blows.

Pole Masters & Sword Masters can nab enemies at range and deal with Kiters far better than Axe Master or Barbs any day. Pole Masters can bleed their enemies to death and knock down their Defense Power while Sword Masters can smack down the enemies Attack Power.

The problem is the same one that always arises...People do not KNOW what you are capable of. All they KNOW is that they were told "You need a Barb for this!" and all they can do is blindly follow that advice. I remember having having a lvl 58 Barb tank Gargantuakongking when everyone told us that was impossible but with 4 Clerics miracles can happen LOL. It is just a matter of adjusting a squad to properly fit the circumstances.


BTW, To OP: You would of course have creamed everything in FB 51 lol. At this point I would be surprised if you cannot solo it.


I go through the same BS as a Fox Veno...Until they realize that unlike the Mage Venos they do not have to Res me every 5 seconds in the FB and I can effectively pin down two enemies without assistance. (And supplement myself as the Tank if need be)

Alright I have some things to say to this post before I go on topic.

1) I am a fist BM so I know what I'm talking about.

2) Cocky much?

3) I lol so hard at axe BMs who think they can hold aggro from me.

4) Fist BMs cannot hold better AoE aggro than an axe BM that is properly geared and built (dual misty rings or rings with good accuracy bonuses, whichever is better, and more than just bare minimum dex in their build), to say otherwhise is fairly ignorant imo.

5) Otherwhise I believe I agree with everything else you said.

Now on topic.

1) They were morons to not keep you, as long as you can see that there shouldn't be any problem.

2) Do what I do, if they say you aren't good enough, prove them wrong. In the earlier days of sanctuary Fist BMs were considered the worst of the worst, if you were a fist BM no one wanted you. I made one anyway, I made it through the levels and I showed them what a proper fist BM could do. (I do not claim credit for the growing number of fist BMs on servers now, though I hope I helped enlighten people)

3) On the subject of BMs tanking, there are two things that make all the difference: A) knowing how to play your class Having a good cleric (and other party members who know how to hold back when necessary) Then of course good gear isn't a bad thing either.

Would I prefer a barb to tank? Heck yes. Is one always available? No, and BMs are the next best bet in a lot of cases (excepting of course mag bosses such as manta)

Redmenace - Heavens Tear

SultryShade - Dreamweaver wrote: »

3) On the subject of BMs tanking, there are two things that make all the difference: A) knowing how to play your class Having a good cleric (and other party members who know how to hold back when necessary) Then of course good gear isn't a bad thing either.

Would I prefer a barb to tank? Heck yes. Is one always available? No, and BMs are the next best bet in a lot of cases (excepting of course mag bosses such as manta)

If people could just do this, then barbs wouldn't have any problems keeping aggro, and the whole party is happy.

Or people can continue to make it a "Mine is longer" contest, and party wipe from Massive Ego Poisoning.

RedMenace

\not all barbs know what they're doing
\\not all archers are arrogant clowns , nor BM's all kamakazi
\\\but they all exist, and they all are sure the others are one

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Mizorie - Lost City wrote: »

only thing you need to tank as a bm is unmmm that agro genie skill, cant remember it atm.

Other then that your fine i think unless you have archers or wizards activily trying to steal agro your fine.

darn im that wizard trying to steal aggro by sutra spamming b:laugh
also I WOULD SO TAKE A LEVEL 8X in my BH. instead of a similar leveled barb. ^.^

and this: Redmenace - Heavens Tear
"\not all barbs know what they're doing"
so true I was in BH39 with 3 barbs... 3 level 54,55,55~!! and all 3 couldn't hold aggro. my god that was the epic fail. Theres 2 mobs so 2 barbs go for one and the 3rd barb goes for another I cast 1 sandstorm on the mob being attacked by 2 barbs and it heads straight for me.. I run around the barbs so they can regain aggro.. they...never....did.... died 4 times total until we finally got a 8X archer to tank for us. xD actually more like he soloed it for us.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Asmathi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I hate to tell you this, but only a fail barb can get aggro stolen by a Archer, even a Pure Archer. I have excellent gear, everything either Legendary, or TT70 gear, and am a Pure Dex Archer. My barb buddy, who is level 74, can prevent me from taking aggro very well. Though I have been in TT or FB where the Barb tanking couldnt keep aggro, even though they were 8X-9X.

pretty much depends on how much ream and other aggro skills the barbs are using. If your careful enough to watch the barb, you can see some spam less ream.... A good barb can rotate at least 3 of their aggro skills(genie included) constantly while each of them cool down.

Asmathi - Sanctuary wrote: »

And barbs such as you are the reason I carry along Multiflavor Jiaozi. b:thanks

And players like you are why the forums are so amusing, I keep all the laughable quotes:
"First, all classes usually +12 their Level 95 Weapons" -Asmathi


Thats like sayin anyone who can outdmg barb aggro and stupidly keeps on doing it, its still the barbs fault.

If their stupid enough to keep on doing it i keep IH on barb and ignore them. Theres a saying in old asia, "Stupid cant be cured unless they die."

Accelerated - Sanctuary

Less reasons for you to waste equipment endurance and charm, sounds good to me b:thanks.

Don't strain yourself, they weren't worth your repair costs anyhow b:laugh.

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

also I WOULD SO TAKE A LEVEL 8X in my BH. instead of a similar leveled barb. ^.^

Now to think about it, 8X BM would go though the mobs faster than 8X barb so it'll make up for the "longer" time during the bosses.

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary

Wow that sucks...i love fb 51...its like a giant aoe fest...seriously i need to try lureing the first boss to the 2nd boss and killing both at the same time...or mabye all 3 bosses he he...and other mobs...bwahaahhahaa. Yeah you could easily chainsaw the entire fb...those people must of been incredibly stupid if they thought they needed a barb. There are alot of circumstances where barbs can be scarce, in some cases its easier to find a capeable bm or herc veno to handle the tanking job, because yes, bms are capable tanks for alot of bosses/situations.

The aoe of a bm helps to speed up everything, and their pdef buff is useful for a squad. I like to have a squad with both a barb and a bm, the bm helps the barb keep all the mobs aggroed away from the clerics, as well as kill large groups of mobs faster and more efficiently. A blademaster can even help the barb cancel a boss given they know their fist cancel move, and can save squads with myriad sword stance. Heavens flame is of course another perk to having a bm, then lots of stuff dies faster. Then of course there is aoe stun, which is great to help get things under control, aoe knockback...the list goes on, but the moral of the story is a bm is a great asset to have.

Most people know bms for their cookie cutter style of play...but there is so much more to a bm than just axes...its too bad bms arent known for their skill in everything else they can do...4 weapon trees...axes is one of them, just 1/4 of the full potential.

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wow that sucks...i love fb 51...its like a giant aoe fest...

b:laughb:victory Mobs are lined up in walls for us to AoE.

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »

seriously i need to try lureing the first boss to the 2nd boss and killing both at the same time...or mabye all 3 bosses he he...and other mobs...bwahaahhahaa.

ROFL. I need to try that. b:dirty

Aadi - Lost City

I guess I never really got the BM hate because I've always played in a scarcity of barbs. Even in my faction now, the highest level barb is low 6x, and the highest level BM is 8x. I've taken to assuming that if a barb can tank it, a BM can tank it, simply because of the way I learned to play.

I assume they learned to play as "Barbs are tanks", period, and can't think for themselves to find another tank.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary

Aadi - Lost City wrote: »

I assume they learned to play as "Barbs are tanks", period, and can't think for themselves to find another tank.

IMO, there are 4 basic types of players: Tanks, Clerics, DDs, and skill-spammers.

If you've got people who belong to any of the first three groups then you can pretty much make any party work because people know what they are doing and respect and understand each others' roles and limitations. But it's that fourth group of people, who run around attacking things willy-nilly, thinking they're a valuable member of the party when in reality they're mostly just a liability, that's the problem.

To them, they expect the Barbs to save them with their aggro skills, the Clerics to save them with their heals/rezzes, and the DDs to save them by killing the mobs that are attacking them. When those kinds of players are involved, that's probably where Barbs have an advantage over BMs. I can run in, aggro everything, and survive, thus saving the party from the actions of a bad player. If I never had to do this, however, then a BM should be able to do my job just as well, if not better.

Heartstone - Dreamweaver

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

A barb can only keep aggro by spamming his aggro skills, and even then will lose aggro to a same level BM if they don't hold back. In fact, only way a good BM loses aggro, is if a barb uses their aggro grab skills.

laugh at that. I dont even need to use aggro skill if dd is below 90 example ( unless good refine). bad refiend TT90 wep = need very very few fleshs...
unless fists in human i can keep aggro from bm too unless higher..


-- anyway topic..
its pretty lame u not were accepted as 8x bm.. freaking god u can just aoe all of it xD.

shlomo2

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

IMO, there are 4 basic types of players: Tanks, Clerics, DDs, and skill-spammers.

If you've got people who belong to any of the first three groups then you can pretty much make any party work because people know what they are doing and respect and understand each others' roles and limitations. But it's that fourth group of people, who run around attacking things willy-nilly, thinking they're a valuable member of the party when in reality they're mostly just a liability, that's the problem.

To them, they expect the Barbs to save them with their aggro skills, the Clerics to save them with their heals/rezzes, and the DDs to save them by killing the mobs that are attacking them. When those kinds of players are involved, that's probably where Barbs have an advantage over BMs. I can run in, aggro everything, and survive, thus saving the party from the actions of a bad player. If I never had to do this, however, then a BM should be able to do my job just as well, if not better.

cool. didn't know barbarians could tank mantavip.

Heartstone - Dreamweaver

mantavip is not hard at all for barb. just way easyer for caster lol. seen 60 barb do manta with 2 clerics.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary

shlomo2 wrote: »

cool. didn't know barbarians could tank mantavip.

I'll have to give it a try and get back to you. b:chuckle

But, yeah, that was my point: Barb != Tank. A tank is a role that can be filled by different classes, some better than others depending on the situation. But if you've got bad players that just skill-spam and expect others to save them, they believe Barb = Tank, and not much else.

Rillien - Heavens Tear

Mantavip exists to give wizzies a purpose. Don't take it from them b:chuckle

Cosoc - Sanctuary

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

IMO, there are 4 basic types of players: Tanks, Clerics, DDs, and skill-spammers.

If you've got people who belong to any of the first three groups then you can pretty much make any party work because people know what they are doing and respect and understand each others' roles and limitations. But it's that fourth group of people, who run around attacking things willy-nilly, thinking they're a valuable member of the party when in reality they're mostly just a liability, that's the problem.

To them, they expect the Barbs to save them with their aggro skills, the Clerics to save them with their heals/rezzes, and the DDs to save them by killing the mobs that are attacking them. When those kinds of players are involved, that's probably where Barbs have an advantage over BMs. I can run in, aggro everything, and survive, thus saving the party from the actions of a bad player. If I never had to do this, however, then a BM should be able to do my job just as well, if not better.

^^ big ups - more barbs need to think like this


no offence to barbs but i perfer BM's...
simply cos barbs r in such high demand so bm's are nicer ppl...
barbs tend to boss ppl around more...
i like to be part of a team...
i like to gauge agro and try not to steal it instead of spam my skills to death which imo = boring
+ BM's dragon = me hit hard...
being a mage i big numbers

clevernickname

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

pretty much depends on how much ream and other aggro skills the barbs are using. If your careful enough to watch the barb, you can see some spam less ream.... A good barb can rotate at least 3 of their aggro skills(genie included) constantly while each of them cool down.

And players like you are why the forums are so amusing, I keep all the laughable quotes:
"First, all classes usually +12 their Level 95 Weapons" -Asmathi


Thats like sayin anyone who can outdmg barb aggro and stupidly keeps on doing it, its still the barbs fault.

If their stupid enough to keep on doing it i keep IH on barb and ignore them. Theres a saying in old asia, "Stupid cant be cured unless they die."

i don't normally agree with you, deceptistar, but that last part was spot on. if a DD with +9 weapons decides to demon spark first thing and go all out, it is NOT the barb's fault that the DD takes aggro. just saying.

DRI - Dreamweaver

lol long discussion over simple ware..

ye 80 bm can tank fb51,59,tt1-2,1-2 and that's it!
Me dares ya to try 1-3..

back to the point..agro skills..dont seem to see bm there, they relly on pure dmg and then party is wasted..

can we play our classes pls..

did it with sword bm with 2k hp and me wiz healed, fb51 that is, but realy it was last resort...
and well barbs can do manta lol

DarkSniper - Lost City

I don't know about anyone else but I never stated that it wasn't the DD's fault if he steals aggro from a barb or BM. The point I was making is that it is much easier to avoid stealing aggro when dealing with a barb compared to a BM

Michael - Harshlands

at level 80 a BM can tank

TT 1-1, 1-2, 1-3 (all bosses), 2-1, 2-2 (not forshura)
FB 19,29,39,51,69 (if you have a purify cleric + charm),79

its all dependant on the build of the character and how the player can adapt to what he faces, if you are a poor player you cant adapt quickly and handle what it going to happen. If you are a good player you can adapt very quickly and handle whatever happens on the fly.

I like to have barbs but at the same time I dont need one if one isnt available ill make do with what I have. Sometimes a barb is a poor choice for tanking certain things (Shoveals in Lunar glade for instance)

Aggro holding is also entirely dependant on the player I can hold aggro off hercs in HH runs with no issues (as long as the veno turns off bash) this is just off raw DPS and not using any aggro skills. As long as the archers and mages are aware of this they can plan thier skills accordingly (like not triple sparking till after I have). At the same time when im working with a barb I also have to be careful on my dps like any DD class as otherwise I will out aggro him by enough to take the boss repeatedly (which can cause AoE spamming in places like fb99 which isnt recommended as its wasteful for the party). So DD classes control your DD I mean its fun to demon spark 2 times in 30 seconds but even though you can do it you probably shouldnt as you will take aggro however that being said if im in a hurry I will tell the barb ill tank the boss and just have him DD as it dies faster if im going all out.

Maciaveli - Lost City

I TANKED KRIMSON WHEN I WAS 81!! But, I did die when he got to like 5% HP.
Btw, I'm a Veno... (Just had to let that out)

And I doubt a BM can tank a 69.

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver

Michael - Harshlands wrote: »

at level 80 a BM can tank

TT 1-1, 1-2, 1-3 (all bosses), 2-1, 2-2 (not forshura)
FB 19,29,39,51,69 (if you have a purify cleric + charm),79

Not Forshura for both or just 2-2? Forshura of 2-1 hits like 6-7k through BB...

Bladecutter - Sanctuary

Maciaveli - Lost City wrote: »

And I doubt a BM can tank a 69.

i wish i had taken screenshots, ive had more bms tanking 69 that barbs, we do the job just fine <.<

I_missU - Dreamweaver

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »

They are idiots. I'd love see them running around like chickens with their heads cut off when 1 mob in 51 gets away from the barb or when patrols come alone and barb's roar is in CD. 51 is BM friendly since it's not wined and there are patrols everywhere. I tanked 51 in higher 60's. Sure, a same lvl barb will be the better tanker, but if you are 8X then ffs, they are idiots for not taking you. Even more idiotic if they don't have a barb already. Sure, we can't hold aggro as well, but Alpha Male helps and good DD's know how to attack differently depends on the tank.

So u say im not a good DD cuz i steal aggro a lot from u? b:cryb:cry

Q_Q
back to cleric

PS: if i dont get a barb i will choose BM 8x to tank fb51, when im around lv 6x, a 76 lv BM help me with my BH51 and we did great~

KyaWitchclaw - Sanctuary

Seriously, I take help from anyone that is willing to offer it, they are taking THEIR time to help. No one has to help, they make that choice and I fully appreciate it! BMs, Wizzies, Veno's w/o Hercs & Nix are always welcome to help me & the people in my faction. If people are ignorant enough to boot you out or hate on you cause they deem you as a "fail" are rejects and don't deserve your help in the first place. b:victory Thats my opinion haters can hate but that just shows you are an ****, and I have more class ^_~

BratFury - Heavens Tear

At level 65 I did fb 51 with a lvl 94 Fist BM. When I took aggro from Rankar and died I learned right there why people want a barb as a tank. Its b/c that is what they are built for. Its not about your ability to fight. Its about your ability to take, hold, and keep aggro. Bm's were not really meant to be a "tanking" class. Thats like saying clerics were meant to be FAC's.

There is nothing against bms. I like them. Especially those with hot looking dual axes and fast as heck swords. However; I do not see why it would matter with someone doing something such a lower level from them. You would have been more than adequate for that job. But for those of us worried about getting squished, we want someone we know will be able to keep us safe.

As the saying goes, never bring a knife to a gun fight.

Bladecutter - Sanctuary

BratFury - Heavens Tear wrote: »

At level 65 I did fb 51 with a lvl 94 Fist BM. When I took aggro from Rankar and died

lvl 94 fist bm losing aggro from a 65 wizzy? 2 options:

1) youre overpowered and you were hitting it for more than 11k each 2 secs

2) the bm fails at fists and decided to get lvl 1 claws for the job

Nicoal - Dreamweaver

pure dex archer here with 3300hp and i tank fb51 solo. i'm level 89 but that doesn't matter. lol i've tanked everything up to fb69 the last two bosses, which i am yet to do.