Bms vs. Barbs -Major Respect Lack

Legendadry - Harshlands

actually i prefer barbs to tank over me, i dont want to eat that repair cost b:chuckle. As far as pvp goes BM's can deal out some Nasty DD and are most needed for barbs to pull catas anyway. (stun and gun) So i have no problem letting a barb tank over me, i'm not the one who's going to pay 40k to repair armor b:pleased

Hecklar - Sanctuary

Kay, time to end this nonsense, Here's why we want barbs, and not Bms, because of the buffs, a Phys buff, doesn't Help you against anything other then Phys attacks, right? Hp buff helps against every Kind of attack. A barb has about.. I dunno at higher levels 3000-10000 more hp then a Bm does, that means Greater Survivability, to ANY attacks, that's Magic OR Phys, because of his Hp. A Bm just has His phys Defence, and in some cases, It's not necessary for barbs to be tanking everything, like Phys bosses, but hmm, lets Look at Krimson for a moment.. can you tank that yet? cause a Barb your level can. You are a Sub Tank, a Second Rate tank, a tank that is your last resort, and Trust me, I'm not trying Krimson with a Bm, unless he has at least the same amout of Hp as a level 80+ Barb. Ps, in that Fb you mentioned in your first post, you should of had no problem with tanking and it was sillf for them to Kick you for that, Heck, I can tank that Fb now, and 59, and the first boss in 69, all the 79 bosses, and probably some of the 89 bosses, but that's largely thanks to the Clerics, and my Stealing aggro >.<b:chuckle

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver

Cenminator - Dreamweaver wrote: »

jewel doesn't have a magic atack, just a phys def debuff that stacks which is why alter phys is the reason bm is better(in my opinion) tank for jewel then a barb

Nah, Jewel hits too freakin hard for a BM's HP. One miss purify and b:bye. Doubt any normal 6X BM can tank it, but 6X barbs can. They have Shapeshifting Intensity for pdef.

Hecklar - Sanctuary wrote: »

Here's why we want barbs, and not Bms, because of the buffs, a Phys buff, doesn't Help you against anything other then Phys attacks, right? Hp buff helps against every Kind of attack. A barb has about.. I dunno at higher levels 3000-10000 more hp then a Bm does, that means Greater Survivability, to ANY attacks, that's Magic OR Phys, because of his Hp. A Bm just has His phys Defence, and in some cases, It's not necessary for barbs to be tanking everything, like Phys bosses, but hmm, lets Look at Krimson for a moment.. can you tank that yet? cause a Barb your level can. You are a Sub Tank, a Second Rate tank, a tank that is your last resort, and Trust me, I'm not trying Krimson with a Bm

Exactly. Tanking **** for quests your level other than pure physical with marrow is dangerous at best. Tanking is HP, HP, HP. Even if we have 100% more mag or phy def than Barb, which we don't, that won't cut the dmg we take by half. In places where we'd get 1 hit if we take more dmg than our HP, no matter how many IH's are on us, a Barb with twice as much HP will have 50% HP left after the hit gets IH back up right away.

Cenminator - Dreamweaver

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Nah, Jewel hits too freakin hard for a BM's HP. One miss purify and b:bye. Doubt any normal 6X BM can tank it, but 6X barbs can. They have Shapeshifting Intensity for pdef.





Exactly. Tanking **** other than pure physical with marrow is nonsense. Tanking is HP, HP, HP.

my 71 cleric solo healed a 68 bm with 3400 hp for jewel. the bm died the first 2 times cause he didn't listen to me and use alter marrow physical, the third time he finally started using it and it went without any problems at all. all you have to do is know your class and know your mobs/bosses and a bm can be an awesome tank.

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver

Cenminator - Dreamweaver wrote: »

my 71 cleric solo healed a 68 bm with 3400 hp for jewel. the bm died the first 2 times cause he didn't listen to me and use alter marrow physical, the third time he finally started using it and it went without any problems at all. all you have to do is know your class and know your mobs/bosses and a bm can be an awesome tank.

SS or it didn't happen. b:avoid

I've also seen a 6X BM approach jewel then gets 1 hit... b:shocked

Legendadry - Harshlands

BM's can tank yes, just as long as they aren't that pure dex and str build, and dont cap their vit at 50. Alot of BM's cap at 50 but imo your gonna need more than that for def and health. I'm lvl 72 now and i have 72 vit w/ no adds and 95 w/ adds. I'm not pumping anymore in it lol till maybe high 8x. but point is dont go full dex and str if ur u a bm

Cenminator - Dreamweaver

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »

SS or it didn't happen. b:avoid

I've also seen a 6X BM approach jewel then gets 1 hit... b:shocked

won't be any screen shots but any good bm can tell you that a bm can easily tank jewel

Paigrande - Harshlands

This thread is getting really pointless... Barbs nd venos r the only classes that can tank effectively while BMs can tank when u dont hav neither a veno with herc or a barb. BMs were made to do melee dmg and keep targets stunned( since they hav so many stun skills, at least axes BMs do). Now arguing about whether BMs can tank or not its really stupid, every class can tank at sum points nd it all depends on when or which mobs they r tanking.

Legendadry - Harshlands

Paigrande - Harshlands wrote: »

This thread is getting really pointless... Barbs nd venos r the only classes that can tank effectively while BMs can tank when u dont hav neither a veno with herc or a barb. BMs were made to do melee dmg and keep targets stunned( since they hav so many stun skills, at least axes BMs do). Now arguing about whether BMs can tank or not its really stupid, every class can tank at sum points nd it all depends on when or which mobs they r tanking.

actually BM's have 3 Stuns pre lvl 89. Roar of pride (AoE stun 10 meter wide, 6 seconds caped) Aelonin blade which has 50% to stun for 3 sec if maxed, and Drake Bash, wich lasts for 6 sec if maxed. Regardless of path BM's can use all 3 stuns, they just have to make sure they have axes in inventory to use drakes bash.

Nasrath - Sanctuary

Cenminator - Dreamweaver wrote: »

won't be any screen shots but any good bm can tell you that a bm can easily tank jewel

Yup, i can solo jewel even b:laugh
10.4k hp unbuffed ftw b:victory

VVhy - Sanctuary

Hasukurobi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

For bosses who use bad Debuffs and hit really hard (especially if your cleric is too fail to purify you properly) then a Barb is required. -
Lies, I tanked fb69 with a 79 cleric and 73 cleric.
The other problem is people are WAY too familiar with Axe BM's who are not by any stretch the best of them. They miss a lot, their damage is slow come, and they lose aggro because of it. They also do not have much in the way of truly outstanding support skills specific to their class.
What you smokin? Im an axe bm with plenty of accuracy and HF= pure own. So how can you say our damage is slow to come? Youve been playing with too many fail bm's

VVhy, Dominance Faction Leader

Kniraven - Lost City

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How many pure mage bosses are there? How many bosses do not melee when you are up close? None that I can think of. Then if so, which bosses do you Magic Marrow and which you don't? You Magic Marrow on bosses with physical and magic attack, like Jewel?

O_o umm... Jewel doesn't use a magical attack dude... You're supposed to use marrow physical on it;and Yeah I've tanked Jewel. Also, I do use alter marrow magical on bosses that do both physical and magical damage (Quianji/Drake). Physical attacks do less damage in general than magic attacks in PW. A cleric can easily make up for the extra phy damage.

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that ummmm no. The dmg Drake Bash can do at times 4 and amp from HF is... yeah...

Sorry I must have misread. There are swords with zerk too btw O_o
Also, Axe Bm's tend to (not all) lack in dex which either causes them to
A. Miss a lot and do less dps.
or
B. Get mistys instead of crit or phy-atk rings which gimps their damage slightly imo (Granted you have to have a set for fighting archers).

The modifiers on sword attacks have greater damage than those on axes too. Which makes up for the lower base weapon damage.



NOTE: I am not saying that swords are better than axes. They aren't. They are just another weapon on the BM skill tree. I am however saying that they are much better for 1 vs 1 fights (Pvp/Pve) and for tanking imo (Best combined with fists [fists are best tanking weapon]. Fists for holding aggro and gaining chi, swords for atk debuff). Axes are better for AoE, TW, DD'ing, and Party Pvp.

Aya__ - Heavens Tear

I dont get these ppl from OP at all... my best friend plays BM and we can do our bh in fb51 together, just two of us are enough, although we welcome others ofc - with me healing she can tank both fushma and wyvern - and shes 67 now.. once bm 86 did fushma for me - he asked me for rb to speed things up and other cleric in squad dd and healed, not very often too, fush went down in no time... and T didnt need heals for mobs in fb at all and didnt want me to pull them either (i can with genie skill) - and if i really insist on doing something and not just running after him and collecting drops then i can dd but should be careful and wait till he aoes ...
im not sure about bossess like krimson, i think you really need barb for these, but most physical bossess can easily be tanked by bms... and bhs with bms always go fast, lol, sometimes even too fast... ok, i admit i feel safer with barb tanking if bm is my level because i can steal aggro on unlucky crit, but if i pay attention im ok most of the time... form OP i couldnt steal aggro even if i wanted to
so ppl dissing bms are just plain stupid... bl jerks and thats it, besides - do you really want a squad of ppl who have no idea what bm can and cannot do and how to play in squad with bm? they would only have wasted your charm or even gotten you killed, so you are better off without them imo...

Kniraven - Lost City

Aya__ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I dont get these ppl from OP at all... my best friend plays BM and we can do our bh in fb51 together, just two of us are enough, although we welcome others ofc - with me healing she can tank both fushma and wyvern - and shes 67 now.. once bm 86 did fushma for me - he asked me for rb to speed things up and other cleric in squad dd and healed, not very often too, fush went down in no time... and T didnt need heals for mobs in fb at all and didnt want me to pull them either (i can with genie skill) - and if i really insist on doing something and not just running after him and collecting drops then i can dd but should be careful and wait till he aoes ...
im not sure about bossess like krimson, i think you really need barb for these, but most physical bossess can easily be tanked by bms... and bhs with bms always go fast, lol, sometimes even too fast... ok, i admit i feel safer with barb tanking if bm is my level because i can steal aggro on unlucky crit, but if i pay attention im ok most of the time... form OP i couldnt steal aggro even if i wanted to
so ppl dissing bms are just plain stupid... bl jerks and thats it, besides - do you really want a squad of ppl who have no idea what bm can and cannot do and how to play in squad with bm? they would only have wasted your charm or even gotten you killed, so you are better off without them imo...

qftb:dirty

XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver

Aya__ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I dont get these ppl from OP at all... my best friend plays BM and we can do our bh in fb51 together, just two of us are enough, although we welcome others ofc - with me healing she can tank both fushma and wyvern - and shes 67 now.. once bm 86 did fushma for me - he asked me for rb to speed things up and other cleric in squad dd and healed, not very often too, fush went down in no time... and T didnt need heals for mobs in fb at all and didnt want me to pull them either (i can with genie skill) - and if i really insist on doing something and not just running after him and collecting drops then i can dd but should be careful and wait till he aoes ...
im not sure about bossess like krimson, i think you really need barb for these, but most physical bossess can easily be tanked by bms... and bhs with bms always go fast, lol, sometimes even too fast... ok, i admit i feel safer with barb tanking if bm is my level because i can steal aggro on unlucky crit, but if i pay attention im ok most of the time... form OP i couldnt steal aggro even if i wanted to
so ppl dissing bms are just plain stupid... bl jerks and thats it, besides - do you really want a squad of ppl who have no idea what bm can and cannot do and how to play in squad with bm? they would only have wasted your charm or even gotten you killed, so you are better off without them imo...

QFT.

Oh and... Krimson died by me and a single cleric, lv66. I love my usual cleric, hehe. Actually, when I got Krimson done for quest, it was a BM and a single cleric as well.



There was a few close calls, if I didn't have TOP I'd have simply sutra'ed more wisely. 2 deaths: cleric was on ground and got in his AOE by mistake; she forgot to purify me once, I didn't hit TOP or sutra fast enough so I died. She admitted it was a strain to keep looking for debuffs, but that she was getting used to it. It's very similar to tanking Jewel, just less forgiving if there's a SNAFU, and Krimson has more HP >_>. With 2 clerics with a decent purify level, it would have been easier. Or if I had fists.

I do feel safer with a barb tanking. I know I can't keep aggro if wiz/archers DD all out, and I have to remind them often. But if I can do the job, why would I waste time trying to get a decent barb, since a lot of the barbs I teamed up with can't keep aggro from lower-leveled DDs? If there's anything people who team up with me knows, wasting time is something that I hate. If I can leeroy in, survive, make sure my party survives and kill the mobs, I will...

Babysmasher - Lost City

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

A barb can only keep aggro by spamming his aggro skills, and even then will lose aggro to a same level BM if they don't hold back.

I dont agree with that but what ever.

They a stupod noobs for not taking you there is nothing wrong with bms and they tank fine. yes a barb can hold aggro better but most cases there is no need to have one. bms work just fine with aoes. b:victory

Kimmahri - Harshlands

XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

QFT.

Oh and... Krimson died by me and a single cleric, lv66. I love my usual cleric, hehe. Actually, when I got Krimson done for quest, it was a BM and a single cleric as well.

yeah BMs can tank krimson too , but diff is Barbs can do so earlier on(i tanked him for my own quest) and from around 7x on, we can do it with fewer extra costs like high level shards in equip, ToP(yeah 1 ToP=almost 1 perfect stone >.<),HP pots (mp burns really fast so you'll always have to use those xD). of course we cannot kill him as fast as a BM could hence get some nasty repair bills, but doesnt compare to the extra costs aforementioned.

Originally Posted by Telarith - Sanctuary
A barb can only keep aggro by spamming his aggro skills, and even then will lose aggro to a same level BM if they don't hold back.

not quite. most times i run BH with 2 BM friends, one axe other fist.axe one is 3 levels lower and fist 1 higher. i use flesh realm at the beginning of battle and again whenever they spark and never lose aggro to the axe one and to the fist one i lose only when he crits many times. i ran BH 69 with a level 8x BM and Veno and against gaurnob i used flesh realm very spareingly(every 10-15 secs more or less).
archers are a diff matter though,when i ran BH69 with a level 91 archer i used flesh realm and lost aggro to archer immediately till he equipped fists xD

Paulita - Dreamweaver

Legendadry - Harshlands wrote: »

actually BM's have 3 Stuns pre lvl 89. Roar of pride (AoE stun 10 meter wide, 6 seconds caped) Aelonin blade which has 50% to stun for 3 sec if maxed, and Drake Bash, wich lasts for 6 sec if maxed. Regardless of path BM's can use all 3 stuns, they just have to make sure they have axes in inventory to use drakes bash.

Not to be off topic but I believe you need an axe for Drakes bash, Aelonin and roar are good to use with any weapon though

LadyofReal - Heavens Tear

I have tanked EVERY fb except 99, even before the release of genies. A good BM can maintain agro without an issue and good DDs will watch their damage output based on the level and class of the tank. I have stolen agro from herc venos my same level and above, I have stolen agro from barbs on TT bosses. I am primarily an axe BM but I do have some dex so I don't miss anywhere near as much as a pure axe build does. But I have experienced the so called lack of respect given to BMs who offer to tank, but honestly, I think if any class gets trashed more than all, it is the veno.

Yuufa - Heavens Tear

personally, i dont like BM's as tanks, esp on my lvl content (8x on 5b59 i have no issue with that situation) BM's have too much agro generation, and often steal it from barbs, or the barb and bm play tug-o-war with the mobs *and on boss fights that makes healing a pain in the a$$ as ironheart stacking is what provides healing, its hard to stack IH when the mob focus changes so much.

And bm;s that want to tank magic mobs **** me off hugely. Sure a BM can tank fb magic bosses but what of the cost to the cleric burning charm spamming IHB 10x as much as they would if say a veno or wiz or even myself would if a mdef char tanked it. Sure, you can say "use apoth nub" fine focus powder is great, but the time it takes to farm herbs to make 5 of them is long and with the advent of the BH quests im running the same FB/BH boss 10x a day for guidl and friends. I want time to lvl and not just be a healbot and farmbot the rest of the time

Brael - Dreamweaver

LadyofReal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I have tanked EVERY fb except 99, even before the release of genies. A good BM can maintain agro without an issue and good DDs will watch their damage output based on the level and class of the tank. I have stolen agro from herc venos my same level and above, I have stolen agro from barbs on TT bosses. I am primarily an axe BM but I do have some dex so I don't miss anywhere near as much as a pure axe build does. But I have experienced the so called lack of respect given to BMs who offer to tank, but honestly, I think if any class gets trashed more than all, it is the veno.

I've seen exactly 3 BM's on DW hold aggro well (I took aggro from one, but it was my fault, not theirs). Please teach the ones here. Any other time I've had one tank for me, aggro was worse than with a herc tanking.

Yuufa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

personally, i dont like BM's as tanks, esp on my lvl content (8x on 5b59 i have no issue with that situation) BM's have too much agro generation, and often steal it from barbs, or the barb and bm play tug-o-war with the mobs *and on boss fights that makes healing a pain in the a$$ as ironheart stacking is what provides healing, its hard to stack IH when the mob focus changes so much.

And bm;s that want to tank magic mobs **** me off hugely. Sure a BM can tank fb magic bosses but what of the cost to the cleric burning charm spamming IHB 10x as much as they would if say a veno or wiz or even myself would if a mdef char tanked it. Sure, you can say "use apoth nub" fine focus powder is great, but the time it takes to farm herbs to make 5 of them is long and with the advent of the BH quests im running the same FB/BH boss 10x a day for guidl and friends. I want time to lvl and not just be a healbot and farmbot the rest of the time

Tell the BM they can tank but their charm is going to take a hit, because you can't afford to farm more potions/buy more mana charms for awhile. I've never seen the too much aggro generation though, but I have seen BM's be overly reliant on alpha male. I've actually started hitting every BM I squad with, with bramble for the sole reason of tracking alpha male usage (it kills bramble when it's used). You would be surprised how many of them use it because they want to tank.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Yuufa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

personally, i dont like BM's as tanks, esp on my lvl content (8x on 5b59 i have no issue with that situation) BM's have too much agro generation, and often steal it from barbs, or the barb and bm play tug-o-war with the mobs *and on boss fights that makes healing a pain in the a$$ as ironheart stacking is what provides healing, its hard to stack IH when the mob focus changes so much.

You don't really need charms with pots and using lvled up Celestial Guardian Seal.It works to be about the same.How many times are you casting IH on them as don't need to spam it.

Aadi - Lost City

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

You don't really need charms with pots and using lvled up Celestial Guardian Seal.It works to be about the same.How many times are you casting IH on them as don't need to spam it.

She didn't mention charms or pots in the part you quote so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Also, for higher level instances IH spam is required, especially if aggro is being pulled back and forth. The reason IH works so well is because it's stackable, but when the cleric is forced to switch between two characters to heal, the stacking is much less effective and therefore the healing power is drastically reduced.

Kniraven - Lost City

Yuufa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

personally, i dont like BM's as tanks, esp on my lvl content (8x on 5b59 i have no issue with that situation) BM's have too much agro generation, and often steal it from barbs, or the barb and bm play tug-o-war with the mobs *and on boss fights that makes healing a pain in the a$$ as ironheart stacking is what provides healing, its hard to stack IH when the mob focus changes so much.

And bm;s that want to tank magic mobs **** me off hugely. Sure a BM can tank fb magic bosses but what of the cost to the cleric burning charm spamming IHB 10x as much as they would if say a veno or wiz or even myself would if a mdef char tanked it. Sure, you can say "use apoth nub" fine focus powder is great, but the time it takes to farm herbs to make 5 of them is long and with the advent of the BH quests im running the same FB/BH boss 10x a day for guidl and friends. I want time to lvl and not just be a healbot and farmbot the rest of the time

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

You don't really need charms with pots and using lvled up Celestial Guardian Seal.It works to be about the same.How many times are you casting IH on them as don't need to spam it.

For bosses your own level, you are going to have to spam ironheat continuously anyway (stop for purify every once in a while) regardless of whether it is a Barb or BM tanking.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Aadi - Lost City wrote: »

She didn't mention charms or pots in the part you quote so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Also, for higher level instances IH spam is required, especially if aggro is being pulled back and forth. The reason IH works so well is because it's stackable, but when the cleric is forced to switch between two characters to heal, the stacking is much less effective and therefore the healing power is drastically reduced.

This is why bring two clerics.How nice it would be to have my Protective Spirit,Shielding Hands along with Word of Healing.

Yuufa - Heavens Tear

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is why bring two clerics.How nice it would be to have my Protective Spirit,Shielding Hands along with Word of Healing.

Its clear ive been away too long, whats Protective Spirit, Shielding Hands and Word of Healing? are they skills? I find it hard to believe ive managed lvl 80 and dont know/have/understand those terms.

Squad Buff for celestial Guardian is 10mp regen, *reduced for being in combat* how is that "about the same* as 100mp regen (also reduced in combat) from focus powder?

ALSO *maybe* i dont need to stack IH as much as i do, but when i see a BM tanking something (esp magic mobs as mentioned) i automatically go into overdrive IH spam, as i see the lower HP pool takes a larger % hit from incoming damage compared to a Barb, Admittedly that maybe a result of my own "noobiness" as a healer. but i pride myself on success, and it is my persona opinion to have a barb tanking over a bm, and a wiz/veno tank on magic mobs opposed to either bm or barb.

Aadi - Lost City

Yuufa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Its clear ive been away too long, whats Protective Spirit, Shielding Hands and Word of Healing? are they skills? I find it hard to believe ive managed lvl 80 and dont know/have/understand those terms.

I was thinking that, but then I thought maybe Protective Spirit is Wings of Protection? But Mysti isn't high enough level for that...or it could be Vanguard Spirit. I wasn't going to say anything in case I was the one that didn't know what I was talking about b:chuckle

I checked other version names on ecatomb as well and didn't see them.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

Yuufa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Its clear ive been away too long, whats Protective Spirit, Shielding Hands and Word of Healing? are they skills? I find it hard to believe ive managed lvl 80 and dont know/have/understand those terms.

Squad Buff for celestial Guardian is 10mp regen, *reduced for being in combat* how is that "about the same* as 100mp regen (also reduced in combat) from focus powder?

ALSO *maybe* i dont need to stack IH as much as i do, but when i see a BM tanking something (esp magic mobs as mentioned) i automatically go into overdrive IH spam, as i see the lower HP pool takes a larger % hit from incoming damage compared to a Barb, Admittedly that maybe a result of my own "noobiness" as a healer. but i pride myself on success, and it is my persona opinion to have a barb tanking over a bm, and a wiz/veno tank on magic mobs opposed to either bm or barb.

Google those in bold I can't same the name but nothing about skills.

There is such thing as called over healing especailly if you do have 2 clerics and are healing the same person.

Umeru - Heavens Tear

People who judge classes are not carebears b:cute they not cute like carebears and they must be eating duck feathers to be coming up with that rubbish.

All classes are good b:victory don't let the trolls bother you because they don't know better themselves.

I love squads with any class, so you should realize that there are other people that loves to work together. It have nothing to do with some requirement to squad and work together. Team work is better than having "e-pwnzor" wana-be squad or whatever

_icup - Harshlands

Bm's Vs. Barbs
idc since I have one of both.
FYI...I stole aggro from a barb 2 levels higher then me on my main which is a level 62 axe Bm!