New "stun" skill effect

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  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    freygin wrote: »
    For Demon BMs, with a 7.5 seconds duration unpreventable and unbreakable stun, a bm with full chi bar can stun then triple spark and still have 4.5 seconds time left to do whatever his evil heart desire with his now amped damage and brutally dealing massive damage to the hopeless victim, if that's still not enough, he can add more damage using Frenzy, Extreme Poison, Tangling Mire b:surrender

    Maybe the only counter to this stun is expel, but we can't put it together with faith/belief unless we throw holy path.

    If the BM triple sparks hes completely ****.
    He'd be more likely to stun, dragon, poison, and hit a couple times.

    As far as I know, you can still use domain, expel, tree of protection, and tons of other counters to prevent damage. You just can't move or attack during that time.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Purify would be a desirable trade for any barb or BM in TW...so remove foot from mouth.

    Classes that rely on physical damage have zerk and purge because otherwise their damage would suck too bad to kill anybody. Casters get more damage per stats and have more stats to allocate for damage. In addition, they don't need to deal with 2 ( or 3 depending on class) party buffs like physical damage dealers do.

    With the new passives, purge is going to be even less effective. Ditto for zerk. On the other hand, it would make Purify that much better.
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  • Mooooooooo - Lost City
    Mooooooooo - Lost City Posts: 377 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Purify would be a desirable trade for any barb or BM in TW...so remove foot from mouth.

    Classes that rely on physical damage have zerk and purge because otherwise their damage would suck too bad to kill anybody. Casters get more damage per stats and have more stats to allocate for damage. In addition, they don't need to deal with 2 ( or 3 depending on class) party buffs like physical damage dealers do.

    With the new passives, purge is going to be even less effective. Ditto for zerk. On the other hand, it would make Purify that much better.

    pretty sure cata barbs would not rather get purify in exchange for casters getting a huge damage boost. If they are pulling, they can't even run away or the cata will stop doing damage, but yes it would let them get to crystal more easily.

    I agree that purify is OP in certain instances such as NW flag capture. However for pk in general where the goal is to kill the opponents, while Adv zerk and spiritblack hole individually might not be as good as purify, I believe having access to both more than makes up for it since I don't imagine most bm, barb, sins would think the trade is desirable. People seem to underestimate how good purge is (even more so now that everyone can use those buff boxes). In pk with small number of people, if only one side is able to purge, then it's essentially a full buffed vs self buffed fight for a good amount of the time.

    Yeah obviously the suggested trade is hypothetical, but it's just to show that the other weapon procs are still comparable in usefulness to purify especially when classes have access to multiple. Yeah so you say melees have less damage so they get a damage boost proc and a purge proc. I could say casters lack mobility and they got a mobility proc. Both I think are overcompensations.
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  • freygin
    freygin Posts: 737 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Purify is OP, spark is OP, zerk crit is OP, purge is OP, opStun is OP, now that every class has OPness then no class is actually OP. b:chuckle


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  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    can seekers get a purify proc on weapons? :3 pwess
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  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I don't think there is anyone at all that wouldn't gladly trade their purge or zerk for purify, further more I would rather my AA opponent had zerk or purge than purify.
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  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I don't think there is anyone at all that wouldn't gladly trade their purge or zerk for purify, further more I would rather my AA opponent had zerk or purge than purify.

    I for one wouldn't want that. (AA ppl getting purge/zerk) It is already way too easy for an caster to alca pwn a under-geared melee as it is... and if they were to get GOF or Spirit Blackhole on their weapon... that would NOT be fun for the melees who are struggling as it is now.

    Still I do think the purify proc is far more oped than the GOF, or Purge proc. (I mean how many times have you seen a video of a melee, or archer soloing 20 vs 1 in nw? I certainly haven't seen a single one.)
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  • Hafnium - Lost City
    Hafnium - Lost City Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I don't think there is anyone at all that wouldn't gladly trade their purge or zerk for purify, further more I would rather my AA opponent had zerk or purge than purify.

    I'm not gonna talk about if I'd trade, or how strong purify is in large scale pvp..
    However, have you seen moooo's damage? if he had zerk, a gush zerk crit could hit me 23k self buffed (with magic marrow on).. it would be horrible
  • Vedovis - Lost City
    Vedovis - Lost City Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Oh nick was that really necessary? how very mature of you. once again, longwinded ranty lecture about stuff COMPLETELY unrelated, just like your poopy damage. I despise you, you hate me, great f:cute

    I'm happy for barbs that got this new stun - they lack a supply of CC skills which this now makes up for but BMs.. eh. Regular BMs don't need this sort of stun - the ones that do are endgame blademasters, of which there aren't many, and only when dealing with endgame casters. you said so yourself~

    I'm not gonna 'switch classes' to one thats apparently worse off than my current according to you. thats stupid :3

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  • XXHotXx - Morai
    XXHotXx - Morai Posts: 1,246 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Why melees only complain about purify being op as if its the only weapon proc given out. Adv zerk and spirit blackhole are extremely good too, and bm, barb, sins can get both of them. Id gladly trade purify for zerk on my r9 weapon and spirit black hole on a sub weapon if melees get purify on weapon and no spirit blackhole. Do you think that would be a desirable trade?

    ^this

    considered new passives and new flame barrier imagine a wizard with zerk and 50% crit rate... prolly hitting 10-15k every undine gush on any endgame char... and it would make purify complete obsolete on their targets

    consider also adv zerk is near wat 20% chance while purify is 8%

    but we are going totally OT,

    i might have found a counter to that new paralyze debuff, but i am not sure cause it happened in tw and i need somebody to test\confirm it
    i could notice that if you wear arcane defense, new mighty swing (being a melee skill\attack) right after this debuff will trigger arcane knockback purify canceling the debuff leaving you on the ground for just a fraction of a second

    but must be confirmed i am really not sure about it and sceptic
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  • Clergywoman - Raging Tide
    Clergywoman - Raging Tide Posts: 262 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Aeliah basically said everything there is to say about this unblockable skill that has no downside..
    ..there goes my dream to challenge and defeat TheDan after a possible server merge in a 1v1. b:surrender

    but this thread - like any thread that asks to fix a bug, glich, abuse, ****, imbalance - is a pure waste of energy. we can talk till we are blue in the face, NOTHING will be done unless (by sheer coincidence) the chinese pw community will also ask for a correction. the last days, weeks, and months are testament to the sad realization that no one 'up there' is listening to us.

    p.s.
    i would trade purify for purge or zerk in a heartbeat!
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  • Toddloveleah - Harshlands
    Toddloveleah - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I think someone said can we should be quiet about how bm has the lowest damage in the game? How about we don't be quiet about it.

    I heard some people saying something about zerk crits well thats great but there arent more r9rr clerics, mystics and pretty much any other class other than bm for no reason.

    BM's have the lowest damage output unless you just aren't built to fight a physical class.

    Procs, purify and all that took away the only thing a bm really did have which was stunlock.

    You can't argue the facts above they are just facts.

    Barb is at least somewhat desirable to play due to the classes tankyness, having a few stuns and abilities to switch forms to get defenses and/or speed.

    What makes someone want to play a bm? To be the token DG guy? Heck no that sucks.

    Will having a stun that can't be blocked or purified or proc'd or w.e change that. Nope.

    So save the QQ.
    Aeliah basically said everything there is to say about this unblockable skill that has no downside..
    ..there goes my dream to challenge and defeat TheDan after a possible server merge in a 1v1. b:surrender

    but this thread - like any thread that asks to fix a bug, glich, abuse, ****, imbalance - is a pure waste of energy. we can talk till we are blue in the face, NOTHING will be done unless (by sheer coincidence) the chinese pw community will also ask for a correction. the last days, weeks, and months are testament to the sad realization that no one 'up there' is listening to us.

    p.s.
    i would trade purify for purge or zerk in a heartbeat!
    p.p.s
    happy new year b:victory

    Thats just so easy to say. Every class wants to QQ about their class until they play a different one. What does zerk crit do when you get stunned and can't stun the other person due to purify or proc? Nothing. So once again save the QQ
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    consider also adv zerk is near wat 20% chance while purify is 8%

    Where the hell do you get your numbers from? Purify was tested to be 12% w/ 4 space room for error.
    I could just as easily claim it was 16% =_=
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  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Purify on r8r is ~8% while purify on r9rr is ~14%. I believe it was Adroit that tested this? Or one of the other female 105 mages running around on these forums.
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  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Purify on r8r is ~8% while purify on r9rr is ~14%. I believe it was Adroit that tested this? Or one of the other female 105 mages running around on these forums.

    Both Adroit and I did separate tests and got similar results.
    That's correct.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Let's just put it this way...barring the occasional 3 stars, zerk and zerk crits have been around since lv 70 near the start of the game. It was part of the original balance the devs introduced to the game. How the hell are you going to claim to me that robes needed the mobility of Purify to kill HA? Like they couldn't kill anyone for all of the 4 (?) years before the R999 update or something?

    Zerk doesn't overcompensate for melees lack of damage, it merely makes it possible. Even sins, with all of that damage, still need to debuff to kill endgame players.
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  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited January 2014

    Where the hell do you get your numbers from? Purify was tested to be 12% w/ 4 space room for error.
    I could just as easily claim it was 16% =_=

    If you're going to go around claiming a +/- margin of error of 4% allows you to claim that it's really a 16% proc rate, then you also cannot correct or dispute his claim that it's an 8% proc rate. After all 8% is the observed proc rate of the r8r weapon, and you did observe a 4% margin of error. Which means in all actuality it could very much be that that 8% is the actual proc rate. In fact given that they share a proc I'd argue that his 8% proc rate is far more likely than your 16% figure. You shouldn't call people on their numbers if they fit within your parameters as acceptable just because they don't lean toward the opinion you hold. It discredits your credibility to analyze the proc objectively. Just saying.

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  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    If you're going to go around claiming a +/- margin of error of 4% allows you to claim that it's really a 16% proc rate, then you also cannot correct or dispute his claim that it's an 8% proc rate. After all 8% is the observed proc rate of the r8r weapon, and you did observe a 4% margin of error. Which means in all actuality it could very much be that that 8% is the actual proc rate. In fact given that they share a proc I'd argue that his 8% proc rate is far more likely than your 16% figure. You shouldn't call people on their numbers if they fit within your parameters as acceptable just because they don't lean toward the opinion you hold. It discredits your credibility to analyze the proc objectively. Just saying.


    That was my point... obviously...
    Durrrrr
    I didn't make the claim it was 16%. I stated that making such a claim would be equally accurate.


    and no, they don't share a proc they just share a name, much like "Berserk" and "Sacrificial Strike" used to. There was a separate margin of error for the r8r weapon & a large sample.
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  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited January 2014

    That was my point... obviously...
    Durrrrr
    I didn't make the claim it was 16%. I stated that making such a claim would be equally accurate.


    and no, they don't share a proc they just share a name, much like "Berserk" and "Sacrificial Strike" used to. There was a separate margin of error for the r8r weapon & a large sample.

    Where the hell did you get your numbers from implies that it is a wrong number. Tone isn't conveyed on the internet, so I didn't think it was sarcastic. Either way, point still stands. If his observation is that it's 8% and that falls within the margin of error, then he's not necessarily wrong. The margin of error is there to account for any observation errors.

    It's the same proc it's just different percentage rates. It should probably have a different name as those do to make this more clear. It makes a large difference in a fight.

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  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Where the hell did you get your numbers from implies that it is a wrong number. Tone isn't conveyed on the internet, so I didn't think it was sarcastic. Either way, point still stands. If his observation is that it's 8% and that falls within the margin of error, then he's not necessarily wrong. The margin of error is there to account for any observation errors.

    It's the same proc it's just different percentage rates. It should probably have a different name as those do to make this more clear. It makes a large difference in a fight.

    It isn't wrong, but it is the lowest possible result and so picking it arbitrarily to support your claims without any explanation is dishonest.
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  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Well... interesting experiment.

    I kicked around for a while on a non-PWI server where no purify proc was in place, and on that particular server, with conditions nearly identical to here (same lvl cap, gears, etc), melees are very, very very strong. DPS is outrageous there... in fact the worst problem that server has is dps... wait for it... BARBS. Almost nothing can kill dps barb, while the dps they have on -int fists chews through everything effortlessly.

    Purify proc was put in place to counter dps. I've always said I wouldn't mind if the proc *rate* was a bit lower, but the proc is there for good reason and should stay. EDIT: Yeah my #s agree with Adroits for purify proc chance. r8r is roughly 7%, r9rr is roughly 12-14%. But that isn't what this thread is about is it.

    The new barb (presumably new bm) stun affects *everybody*. Think of how much archers rely on anti stun to avoid cc. Nobody, nobody at all can avoid this skill. It gives barbs, a class that isn't supposed to have *too* much control, the benefit of tons of control combined with tons of survivability AND tons of damage. And speed. Etc.

    Again: the skill has too many pros and not enough cons. Change how it works, or change the requirements (up chi requirement, up the cooldown, etc).
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  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Well... interesting experiment.

    I kicked around for a while on a non-PWI server where no purify proc was in place, and on that particular server, with conditions nearly identical to here (same lvl cap, gears, etc), melees are very, very very strong. DPS is outrageous there... in fact the worst problem that server has is dps... wait for it... BARBS. Almost nothing can kill dps barb, while the dps they have on -int fists chews through everything effortlessly.

    Purify proc was put in place to counter dps. I've always said I wouldn't mind if the proc *rate* was a bit lower, but the proc is there for good reason and should stay. EDIT: Yeah my #s agree with Adroits for purify proc chance. r8r is roughly 7%, r9rr is roughly 12-14%. But that isn't what this thread is about is it.

    The new barb (presumably new bm) stun affects *everybody*. Think of how much archers rely on anti stun to avoid cc. Nobody, nobody at all can avoid this skill. It gives barbs, a class that isn't supposed to have *too* much control, the benefit of tons of control combined with tons of survivability AND tons of damage. And speed. Etc.

    Again: the skill has too many pros and not enough cons. Change how it works, or change the requirements (up chi requirement, up the cooldown, etc).

    no you mean you rerolled to another (official server) and made equal geared toon without r9rr wep and pk'd b:chuckle or you went to PWBR/RU where r9rr isn't as common
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  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Well... interesting experiment.

    I kicked around for a while on a non-PWI server where no purify proc was in place, and on that particular server, with conditions nearly identical to here (same lvl cap, gears, etc), melees are very, very very strong. DPS is outrageous there... in fact the worst problem that server has is dps... wait for it... BARBS. Almost nothing can kill dps barb, while the dps they have on -int fists chews through everything effortlessly.

    Purify proc was put in place to counter dps. I've always said I wouldn't mind if the proc *rate* was a bit lower, but the proc is there for good reason and should stay. EDIT: Yeah my #s agree with Adroits for purify proc chance. r8r is roughly 7%, r9rr is roughly 12-14%. But that isn't what this thread is about is it.

    The new barb (presumably new bm) stun affects *everybody*. Think of how much archers rely on anti stun to avoid cc. Nobody, nobody at all can avoid this skill. It gives barbs, a class that isn't supposed to have *too* much control, the benefit of tons of control combined with tons of survivability AND tons of damage. And speed. Etc.

    Again: the skill has too many pros and not enough cons. Change how it works, or change the requirements (up chi requirement, up the cooldown, etc).


    In this server we do not have those issues because we DO have purify proc. Howevef, they overdid themselves w/ purify + holypath + antistun.

    This skill is to compensate on a server that DOES have that proc.

    Barbs, the skill does not have a 100% chance and even when stunned you can still use domain, expel, ToP, etc. You can prevent damage, you just can't prevent loss of movement.

    Blademasters, the skill costs 1 spark & 15 second cooldown. Again, you can expel, domain, etc. Just can't move.
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  • opkossy
    opkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited January 2014

    Barbs, the skill does not have a 100% chance and even when stunned you can still use domain, expel, ToP, etc. You can prevent damage, you just can't prevent loss of movement.

    Domain = 3 min cooldown and kills your genie. Meanwhile barb can just try again directly after and now you won't have a genie.
    Expel = Barb CCs you via poison fang anyways. GG
    ToP = lol. Burns genie and won't save you from anything major unless you're using it to force a charm tick. Not exactly a widely used skill tbh.

    The simple problem for the barb version is it has too many advantages.

    Pretty much spammable, never misses, bypasses anti-stun, costs no chi, will immobilize if stun fails? At least the BM's version has a significant chi cost. This, on the other hand, is just overkill.
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  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    OPKossy wrote: »
    Domain = 3 min cooldown and kills your genie. Meanwhile barb can just try again directly after and now you won't have a genie.
    Expel = Barb CCs you via poison fang anyways. GG
    ToP = lol. Burns genie and won't save you from anything major unless you're using it to force a charm tick. Not exactly a widely used skill tbh.

    The simple problem for the barb version is it has too many advantages.

    Pretty much spammable, never misses, bypasses anti-stun, costs no chi, will immobilize if stun fails? At least the BM's version has a significant chi cost. This, on the other hand, is just overkill.

    Your arguments are valid.
    Though, the immobilize can be escaped.
    I was thinking of Expel as a means to prevent damage not prevent additional CC.
    (I doubt any AA is going to be killed through Expel by a barb even with poison fang)

    If anything is overkill, it's purify.
    It is unnecessary, more so on some classes than others *cough*wizards*cough*

    To be honest, I think you guys are over reacting majorly.
    Nobody has gotten the BM skill yet and I haven't seen anyone get stunlocked by a barb at all the whole update. I've had the skill used on me, my gf, and watched others and tbh it really doesn't seem that huge.
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  • ablabahabla
    ablabahabla Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Your arguments are valid.
    Though, the immobilize can be escaped.
    I was thinking of Expel as a means to prevent damage not prevent additional CC.
    (I doubt any AA is going to be killed through Expel by a barb even with poison fang)

    If anything is overkill, it's purify.
    It is unnecessary, more so on some classes than others *cough*wizards*cough*

    To be honest, I think you guys are over reacting majorly.
    Nobody has gotten the BM skill yet and I haven't seen anyone get stunlocked by a barb at all the whole update. I've had the skill used on me, my gf, and watched others and tbh it really doesn't seem that huge.

    get a barb with the new skill and someone else who can spam a few stuns and you're doomed. u wont be able to escape at all cause u cant use any skills while the barb effect and other people can normal stun u while your stunned by the barb!

    this skill is make barbs the masters of stunlocking in group pvp cause u wont be able to kill endgame barbs that fast and they can just stunlock the major targets for ages which means gg for purify proc.
    Imagine 2 barbs with occult ice on their genie, i wanna see a wiz escape from them its almost impossible unless he gets rly lucky and the barbs are to dumb to time their skills. And in combination with their lvl100 skill they can stunlock u and purge u without havieng any bid troubles nor do they rly have to have good timins as bms need so far to stunlock people. I had some barb with that skill and one with normal sutn on me as bm and i couldnt do anything.

    Ofc u could use fortify to escape the normal sutns but thats what they got occult for it doesnt get affected by fortify. Only way to rly escape the stunlock is faith before the new skill gets u or domain, else your charm gonna get ***** all over and u will get oneshot once u are debuffed.
  • freygin
    freygin Posts: 737 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    R9RR is an endgame weapon, so it deserves to be OP, without it most AAs would be a prey for sins with equal gears and BMs too if they can stunlock. It's kinda fair to break free from a stunlock ocassionally since most AAs don't have anti stun skills, and if it did proc, must be because the attacker is already dealing too much damage. Though I must agree that it's kinda unnecessary for wizzies, they have a lot of escaping skills already with their skillset alone, and they have huge defenses, so let'em tank some damage first b:chuckle

    On a server with less r9rr purify weapon wielders, even a low refined sin with 5 aps can kill most AAs especially cleric, even with better gears. Unlike purify on r8r and r9rr, Gofs/Berserks add-on have the same procs on any weapon (cmiiw).

    About sins new skill with paralyze and barb's new stun that turns to paralyze if stun doesn't proc, does the immobilize also bypass antistun skill/apoth/purify proc?
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Since my testing of proc rate came up and there seems to be a little confusion about it..

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  • opkossy
    opkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited January 2014

    If anything is overkill, it's purify.
    It is unnecessary, more so on some classes than others *cough*wizards*cough*

    To be honest, I think you guys are over reacting majorly.
    Nobody has gotten the BM skill yet and I haven't seen anyone get stunlocked by a barb at all the whole update. I've had the skill used on me, my gf, and watched others and tbh it really doesn't seem that huge.
    Yeah. I don't think anyone who's actually good to begin with has issues with the BM version. It's a good skill and the cost and cooldown make it something very reasonable for the class that needed a way to do its job with all the anti-stun and stun breaking skilled PvPers do nowadays.

    The Barb one suffers the same problem as Purify does, IMO. Using overkill to fix overkill. It'd be one thing if it had some sort of chi cost, an increased cooldown, didn't have the guarantee of a CC going off if the initial failed, could be blocked by antistun (even if it couldn't be purified once it landed since that would also counter purify spell but without making it harder on the 5 classes that don't get access to purify weapons), or well... something like any of those. I mean, the skill could at least have to deal with the natural problem all physical classes have where even when fighting a min dex arcane there's a chance to miss. But nope, instead it has zero drawbacks compared to all its strengths.

    As for the reaction... I think it's somewhat justified to be worried, though some may be exaggerating a bit. I mean, when Purify just became a thing, not ~too~ many people worried about it. Then every caster and their grandma got access to it on top of endgame gears and new skills that made attempting to DPS anyone a joke and suddenly we all realized how ridiculous it was in hindsight.
    (Insert fancy image here)
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    and Purify was probably introduced not because of barbs or BMs but because of sins.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty