New "stun" skill effect

Mooooooooo - Lost City

so barbs have gotten a stun effect from their upgraded skill that cannot be prevented by anti stun, foritfy, or be purified/badged.

It's likely that bm's drake bash upgrade will also be the same effect since the description is similar.

does anyone feel that is kind of game breaking? especially if it is true for bm's stun. (barbs fine since they had not much cc before and the stun is not 100%). They basically added something that overrides all the previous game mechanics. Antistun: avoid all movement debuffs? nope.

thoughts?

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

i think wizzy skills and sins have an equally strong skill this time too b:surrender
more love to seekers plz

Mooooooooo - Lost City

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

i think wizzy skills and sins have an equally strong skill this time too b:surrender
more love to seekers plz

a 30s cd 3 second normal stun 66% of the times with damage slightly less than a pyro + a gush (since it's 2 separate hits) is equally strong to a stun that cannot be prevented by anti stun or purified?

for comparison, barb's stun is 6s cd and bm's stun 15s cd, and those are special stuns not the normal one wiz got.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

a 30s cd 3 second normal stun 66% of the times with damage slightly less than a pyro + a gush (since it's 2 separate hits) is equally strong to a stun that cannot be prevented by anti stun or purified?

for comparison, barb's stun is 6s cd and bm's stun 15s cd, and those are special stuns not the normal one wiz got.

despite it being an irritating skill, if i had to choose which class to have this skill, (aka the lesser evil) id choose the barb to have it, because they arent exactly the class you would be seeing go offensive 100% of the time.

If your expecting a full DD to have a skill like this..... o.o

Mooooooooo - Lost City

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

despite it being an irritating skill, if i had to choose which class to have this skill, (aka the lesser evil) id choose the barb to have it, because they arent exactly the class you would be seeing go offensive 100% of the time.

If your expecting a full DD to have a skill like this..... o.o

and as I said I'm more or less ok with barbs having it since it's not 100% for them even though bypassing previous game mechanics is terrible design. I'm more concerned about how overpowered BMs would be with this skill. they are already the tankiest class with the most CC and adding a 7.5 second unpreventable unbreakable stun that they can use every 15 seconds would be very broken.

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear

I'm just speculating but I think that "Paralyse" status give a different status from "Stun". So, all the new skills with "Paralyse" will do the "Paralyse" status. It got a different icon from stun as well. So... under this assumption, its likely that Drake bash would also evade the anti-stun.

Also, one of the new archer archer skill got "freeze"... dunno if it will be like a occult ice freeze or the immobilisation freeze or the new freeze status that can be found in the 2nd room of flowsilver that turns you into a block of ice and amps damage as well.

edit: mighty swing description is still stun. its just the new applied status is paralyse

XXHotXx - Morai

you cant really compare the brokeness of new mighty swing with the retardedly **** wizard frost flame

seriously i am demon and i want my demon emberstorm back, this skill doesnt do anything of what it is in its description

i feel like being scammed from the npc lol,
i traded my demon emberstorm that has 129032893712 useful uses in both pve and pvp

for a skill that doesnt do the damage as described, the CC mechanic is not as described and the CCs doesnt last and doesnt reduce movement speed as described

seriously fix it or tell me how to get my demon emberstorm back

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

and as I said I'm more or less ok with barbs having it since it's not 100% for them even though bypassing previous game mechanics is terrible design. I'm more concerned about how overpowered BMs would be with this skill. they are already the tankiest class with the most CC and adding a 7.5 second unpreventable unbreakable stun that they can use every 15 seconds would be very broken.

but isnt that the skill that needs the opponent to actually be a certain length away? id find that a pretty hassle during a mass pvp session

WannaBM - Archosaur

A wizzy and a seeker complaining about a barb and BM skill. Sounds like a good thing.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

A wizzy and a seeker complaining about a barb and BM skill. Sounds like a good thing.

bad pandas should go bald >:E

Mooooooooo - Lost City

I wouldn't mind as much of a buff to other class if they don't do it in a way that screws up/bypass normal game mechanics

Adroit - Lost City

Yeah, I'm not a fan of all of these exceptions. The barb stun is going to be obnoxious, but I think still manageable.. if bms get a 7.5 second unstoppable stun that cannot be purified that they can use every 15 seconds.. that would be absolutely stupid. Almost as stupid as psychics being able to stun you through ironguard.. at least that nonsense has a cooldown worth mentioning.

TZoner - Raging Tide

WTH is the point of anti stun buffs or pots if they dont prevent stuns

Spell_Caster - Raging Tide

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

you cant really compare the brokeness of new mighty swing with the retardedly **** wizard frost flame

seriously i am demon and i want my demon emberstorm back, this skill doesnt do anything of what it is in its description

i feel like being scammed from the npc lol,
i traded my demon emberstorm that has 129032893712 useful uses in both pve and pvp

for a skill that doesnt do the damage as described, the CC mechanic is not as described and the CCs doesnt last and doesnt reduce movement speed as described

seriously fix it or tell me how to get my demon emberstorm back

I feel you. I tested the new wiz skill and the demon version is no really reflecting what it says. I did 40 tries and it stunned like 5 times only. That is not 60% or i am very unlucky. The animation is long and my hailstorm procs much more often.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

and as I said I'm more or less ok with barbs having it since it's not 100% for them even though bypassing previous game mechanics is terrible design. I'm more concerned about how overpowered BMs would be with this skill. they are already the tankiest class with the most CC and adding a 7.5 second unpreventable unbreakable stun that they can use every 15 seconds would be very broken.

I agree with the cooldown/unguarenteed bit, but imho I think it would be scarier for a barb to be using it at any given time... since they actually have the ability to stand and get near others thanks to their shields, meaning their stun has a lot more potential to come into play and wreek havoc for you oped casters soloing 20 people.

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

I wouldn't mind as much of a buff to other class if they don't do it in a way that screws up/bypass normal game mechanics

They basically 'fixed' something by adding in something that I must admit is very arguably a tad bit overpowered... it does seem a bit ridiculous that a stun can't be removed if it lasts so long.

THOUGH in our defense... how hard is it for a melee to counter act the countless stuns, sleeps, seals, etc coming from every which direction while in mass pvp? Its impossible to stop them 100% of the time. Not to mention how hard it is for most melees to live long enough to even use it.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Yeah, I'm not a fan of all of these exceptions. The barb stun is going to be obnoxious, but I think still manageable.. if bms get a 7.5 second unstoppable stun that cannot be purified that they can use every 15 seconds.. that would be absolutely stupid. Almost as stupid as psychics being able to stun you through ironguard.. at least that nonsense has a cooldown worth mentioning.

I would add one major thing to that... RANGE... + the fact that there is far more casters out there than melee... I think it would/will still be far harder to avoid the stun of a ranged/caster than the stuns of a melee... especially when the melee often can't stand up/stun everyone in sight at a ridiculous rate.

Now if every melee was in end game gear, and was able to stand up to an absurd amount of damage... I would be a lot more likely to agree outright that it isn't balanced (EDIT: meant balanced at all one single bit!)... but since a lot of melees can not... it will remain to be my opinion. (I am not saying its completely balanced... but hopefully it will bring a bit of balance back into the game.)

Also lets not forget if the stun does work like you all fear... you all can still tank us assuming the new skills doesnt allow melees to actually damage/kill a caster up close. (which I dont know one way or the other) Oh and melee skills CAN miss... have enough dex to make us miss... or just rely that your defenses is enough to keep you all alive which in most cases I am sure it will. EDIT: (Something that adroit has pointed out before with GOF... if it werent for that proc he can tank a bms stun all day long, still an unremovable/unpreventable stun on him.. could eaisly allow others to come in and do the owning... which might just bring bms back into being a support/happy with being a support.) It should aslo cut back drastically of the uselessfulness of that purify proc. (Assuming bms actually come back to the class for nw)

--- Yes I am aware just becuase something has it weaknesses it doesn't mean it isn't oped. ---

Still I feel this update is to try to make melees a bit happier/not feel like their role was completely ruined by the purify proc.

--

Sadly it is really difficult to get the game to be completely balanced... especially when people neglect to mention/think of what most of another class has to go through. (EVERYONE does this... it not just limited to melees... casters/archers/seekers do it too.

Still I do feel we need give it more time to sink in.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Does it go through tidal as well? This is pretty dumb. Archers have to spend a full spark on their anti stun and barbs don't have to spend anything to stun through it.

Adroit - Lost City

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I agree with the cooldown/unguarenteed bit, but imho I think it would be scarier for a barb to be using it at any given time... since they actually have the ability to stand and get near others thanks to their shields, meaning their stun has a lot more potential to come into play and wreek havoc for you oped casters soloing 20 people.



They basically 'fixed' something by adding in something that I must admit is very arguably a tad bit overpowered... it does seem a bit ridiculous that a stun can't be removed if it lasts so long.

THOUGH in our defense... how hard is it for a melee to counter act the countless stuns, sleeps, seals, etc coming from every which direction while in mass pvp? Its impossible to stop them 100% of the time. Not to mention how hard it is for most melees to live long enough to even use it.



I would add one major thing to that... RANGE... + the fact that there is far more casters out there than melee... I think it would/will still be far harder to avoid the stun of a ranged/caster than the stuns of a melee... especially when the melee often can't stand up/stun everyone in sight at a ridiculous rate.

Now if every melee was in end game gear, and was able to stand up to an absure amount of damage... I would be a lot more likely to agree outright that it isn't balanced... but since a lot of melees can not... it will remain to be my opinion. (I am not saying its completely balanced... but hopefully it will bring a bit of balance back into the game.)

Also lets not forget if the stun does work like you all fear... you all can still tank us assuming the new skills doesnt allow melees to actually damage a casters up close. (which I dont know one way or the other) Oh and melee skills CAN miss... have enough dex to make us miss... or just rely that your defenses is enough to keep you all alive which in most cases I am sure it will.

--- Yes I am aware just becuase something has it weaknesses it doesn't mean it isn't oped. ---

Still I feel this update is to try to make melees a bit happier/not feel like their role was completely ruined by the purify proc.

--

Sadly it is really difficult to get the game to be completely balanced... especially when people neglect to mention/think of what most of another class has to go through. (EVERYONE does this... it not just limited to melees... casters/archers/seekers do it too.

Still I do feel we need give it more time to sink in.

Just because there aren't as many melee on your server doesn't mean there aren't on other servers. Also your idea that it is somehow okay for a r9rr +10 immac sharded bm to balance with a maxed out r9rr +12 josd nw upgraded full S set caster is beyond asinine. I'm still reserving judgement as to how the balance is going to be, but I can tell you I'd be pretty unhappy if a single bm with poo gear is able to cancel me out with nothing I could do about it.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Slivaf... once again you conveniently forget that endgame BM's are very, VERY tanky. The 'unable to avoid with fortify' bit I can handle. The 'unable to purify' is EXTREMELY broken, and trying to use the 'but I'm a melee' argument just will not fly. The only way this should be acceptable is if there was a new GENIE skill to counter it. If not, then this un-counterable debuff is broken, on any class that has it. And stunning through ironguard powder is broken on any class as well.

Not picking on the melees Slivaf, but seriously, remember to keep a firm check on reality---heavy armors can get up to 50% more hp, much higher physical defense, and similar magic defense to arcanes (or sometimes higher), and bms in particular have some badass control skills. Barbs have their own quick kill combo just made way way easier by making their stun unavoidable... purge > arma is lame and predictable, but it is also highly effective and hard to block even if you know it is coming.

Also, if the 'paralyze' truly cannot be purified, then isn't this a strange reversal of the anti-aps trend? Because as I see it, if a bm has that skill, they could once again aps targets to death... or, say, work with a triple-sparking sin to aps a target after this 'paralyze' has been used.... yeaaaaaah.......

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Just because there aren't as many melee on your server doesn't mean there aren't on other servers. Also your idea that it is somehow okay for a r9rr +10 immac sharded bm to balance with a maxed out r9rr +12 josd nw upgraded full S set caster is beyond asinine. I'm still reserving judgement as to how the balance is going to be, but I can tell you I'd be pretty unhappy if a single bm with poo gear is able to cancel me out with nothing I could do about it.

Didnt read my full post? Maybe I back tracked a bit too much, but I did say I know its not comepletely balanced, and imho it is a bit overpowered. :$

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Slivaf... once again you conveniently forget that endgame BM's are very, VERY tanky. The 'unable to avoid with fortify' bit I can handle. The 'unable to purify' is EXTREMELY broken, and trying to use the 'but I'm a melee' argument just will not fly. The only way this should be acceptable is if there was a new GENIE skill to counter it. If not, then this un-counterable debuff is broken, on any class that has it. And stunning through ironguard powder is broken on any class as well.

Not picking on the melees Slivaf, but seriously, remember to keep a firm check on reality---heavy armors can get up to 50% more hp, much higher physical defense, and similar magic defense to arcanes (or sometimes higher), and bms in particular have some badass control skills. Barbs have their own quick kill combo just made way way easier by making their stun unavoidable... purge > arma is lame and predictable, but it is also highly effective and hard to block even if you know it is coming.

Also, if the 'paralyze' truly cannot be purified, then isn't this a strange reversal of the anti-aps trend? Because as I see it, if a bm has that skill, they could once again aps targets to death... or, say, work with a triple-sparking sin to aps a target after this 'paralyze' has been used.... yeaaaaaah.......

Oh believe me I realize fully that end game bms are extremely tanky... but really aeliah how many bms account for that? How many bms are actually truly classified as being endgame? I can honestly only think of a couple on our server, I realize it is different on other servers, and there is more that are close to endgame, but still there isnt many of them.

As I said if we all were in equal gear I would be a lot more likely to agree that there is no debate about how powerful the stun truly is. (Again I am not trying to say it isn't oped... but still it absolutely has its limits.) I.e having to be up close, and living long enough to use it. (yes both become far easier in end game gear, but the simple truth of the matter is that not all melees are in that gear, and nor is there a billion bms still running around in mass pvp. Which is in off itself a limit to how often the stun will be placed upon a caster. As I have said it is easy to kill most bms long before they even get near... meaning you likely wont have to deal with the stun being placed on you. I also realize a caster wont be able to stop it 100% of the time, but really they shouldn't be able too. The same goes for a melee avoiding the stuns, sleeps seals etc from ranged people.


Also @ your second paragraph... you seem to be ignoring what a caster can do.

They can FEASIBLY wear HA, and still use their r93r caster weapon, which means they can get that 'extra hp' that supposed 'better' phys def. PLEASE << Casters have it so easy in this game it isnt even funny. Too top it all off the casters can still attack and kill at a distance ridicuolously easy. << Hell aa people can even get comparable phys def to that of a melee. (It goes BOTH ways... I just feel the innate advntages still come back into play, which imho gives an advantage to casters.. now how useful that advntage is... can EASILY be debated with no end, as no side is likely to concede their belief... that the other side has it easier/better.)

EDIT: (yes a lateish edit)... casters are indeed an easy kill as well when not in endgame/they have a single opponent that can withstand their hits, they still have other thing that re in their favor.


That extra hp, and phys def is NICE to an extent but seriously when you have to deal with melee attacks as well as the much harder hitting magic attacks that can come from everywhere... (EDIT: EVERY SINGLE TIME you attack) it so lessens the usefulness of both the extra hp, and 'phys def'.
---

I realize we are all on different side of the fences, and the grass is always greener on the other side, but still. This game strongly favors a caster/ranged class.


---

One more thing as I said in the post above...

"They "fixed" something by adding in something that can easily be argued to be oped."

The 'fix' was in due to the opedness/how much the purify proc ruined stuns/a bm's ability to support in mass pvp.

As for the oped bit... well I did in fact mean that the stun would be unpreventable/unremovable. (EDIT: <-- would be the oped part.. but that is so assuming that bms are actually active/can actually stand up long enough to go in and stun with the unremovable/unpreventable stun.)

EDIT:

In other words I agree with you both... they likely should add in a genie skill that could remove it. (it would just so need to be limited) Which in all likely hood it would be very limited... due to the stamina, etc needed for any and all genie skills.

EDIT 2: It almost seems like you you comepletely misntepreted my post... I didn't once come outright and say the skill was completely balanced. All I merely did was point out its weaknesses which is EXACTLY what the defender of the purify proc did.

So yea... please show me which lines you interpreted as me saying the skill was 'balanced.' I realize it may have been slightly implied in my post... but believe me that isn't exactly what I was trying to do with it.

EDIT: Also I agree with your last paragraph, but still I feel that this 'fix' was in response to the opedness of the purify proc. (Still I do not feel this skill needs to be removed/changed... and obviously neither do you.) A genie skill would so imho be the most ideal way/reasonable way to go about lessening the blow of the arguable opedness of this stun.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

When you are arguing that endgame casters should be wearing HA you're either being pedantic or an idiot. Either way it's a worthless opinion that adds nothing of value except for revealing how invalid your arguments are. Troll elsewhere.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

When you are arguing that endgame casters should be wearing HA you're either being pedantic or an idiot. Either way it's a worthless opinion that adds nothing of value except for revealing how invalid your arguments are. Troll elsewhere.

When did I say they should be wearing HA? I said it is far MORE feasible for them to be able to do it, and get away with it a lot easier than if a melee went AA. (I get it they will still be getting hammered hard from other casters/archers but still... being able to do it, and to be able to get away with it easier... just does NOT seem right or ok. <<)... but yea I can't see that being changed at all... still I do FEEL it is absolutely worth pointing out that a caster could do that, and to top it off they still have their innate advantages over a melee.

Beleni - Dreamweaver

About time barbs got abit of an Edge:P

Seriously though, All new skills added since Earth guards eats through our 2 spark defence skill ( invoke the spirit)

Ment to reduce ALL damage by 90 %


Its nice to see the barbs cutting through something for once lol

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Beleni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

About time barbs got abit of an Edge:P

Seriously though, All new skills added since Earth guards eats through our 2 spark defence skill ( invoke the spirit)

Ment to reduce ALL damage by 90 %


Its nice to see the barbs cutting through something for once lol

Pfft your shield, def, and insane hp was enough of an edge.. gtfo nab.

/sarcasm



Seriously though while this stun does seem like its a bit much... I for one feel that it isn't as overpowered/useful (There is a difference in my book between being arguably overpowered, and the 'ridicolously overpowered' (the latter of which I believe is what some are trying to make it out to be)...) Though YES it is USEFUL... or at least it definitely is on paper/the potential foreseeable reamifications of the stun, is undoubtedly scary, and I can see why people are worried about it. Still... As for how useful/powerful it truly is... I think only time will truely be able to tell us that. :$

MystieMoon - Dreamweaver

Sweet, the game is broken in favor of melees for the first time in a long time b:chuckle

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

MystieMoon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sweet, the game is broken in favor of melees for the first time in a long time b:chuckle

In my honest opinion.

Even if this stun proves to be ridicolously broken/hard to defend against... casters still have PLENTY going for them... besides the stun alone is absolutely unlikely to kill a caster... the melee will have to support and likely let others benefit from the stun. (which is how it is suppose to be in the end.) Still I find it messed up that others will still find it easier to do their "job" even when not in a squad/oped gear.

---

Meh I hate discussions like these... but still if I or even you all didn't offer up your take on something... who knows what would of happened with the things each of us has QQ about at one time or another?

Desdi - Sanctuary

I agree that it's still too early to judge and we'll have to see how things go when people actually start getting these skills.

I don't really like the fact that instead of trying to balance/fix something, they tend introduce something new that makes the previous things weaker/useless that might break other/more things in the process.

f:sweat

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I agree that it's still too early to judge and we'll have to see how things go when people actually start getting these skills.

I don't really like the fact that instead of trying to balance/fix something, they tend introduce something new that makes the previous things weaker/useless that might break other/more things in the process.

f:sweat

Agreed. :$

That is so arguably what might be happening with this new stun skill/effect.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Slivaf... once again you conveniently forget that endgame BM's are very, VERY tanky. The 'unable to avoid with fortify' bit I can handle. The 'unable to purify' is EXTREMELY broken, and trying to use the 'but I'm a melee' argument just will not fly. The only way this should be acceptable is if there was a new GENIE skill to counter it. If not, then this un-counterable debuff is broken, on any class that has it. And stunning through ironguard powder is broken on any class as well.

Not picking on the melees Slivaf, but seriously, remember to keep a firm check on reality---heavy armors can get up to 50% more hp, much higher physical defense, and similar magic defense to arcanes (or sometimes higher), and bms in particular have some badass control skills. Barbs have their own quick kill combo just made way way easier by making their stun unavoidable... purge > arma is lame and predictable, but it is also highly effective and hard to block even if you know it is coming.

Also, if the 'paralyze' truly cannot be purified, then isn't this a strange reversal of the anti-aps trend? Because as I see it, if a bm has that skill, they could once again aps targets to death... or, say, work with a triple-sparking sin to aps a target after this 'paralyze' has been used.... yeaaaaaah.......

you seem to have this tendancy to think up the perfect scenario that usually works in a duel but has much less availability in mass pvps, when you're argueing about skills. This skill is honestly no less OP and annoying than a mages ability to 1 shot barbs or puri-proc
Endgame BM skill isnt the thing thats insanely OP. Its going to be you, being in the wrong spot at the wrong time where the other guys see you, flock to you, and kill you from the side. Its not that great if you need a partner to 'help you out'

XxWilxX - Heavens Tear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DksSPZTZES0

Love my Mighty Swing, Thanks PWI!!
And the animation is awesome...

Btw, GG at this bm crying so much, when they have the chance to "stunlock" a player for.. who knows how long lol...

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

XxWilxX - Heavens Tear wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DksSPZTZES0

Love my Mighty Swing, Thanks PWI!!
And the animation is awesome...

Btw, GG at this bm crying so much, when they have the chance to "stunlock" a player for.. who knows how long lol...

I am not really 'crying' about it. <<

I am just tired of people acting like stuns are so badass, when they so obviously arent useful at all if the bm doesn't live long enough to use them.

I get it to some of you a bms lack thereof to withstand a few attacks balances out with their ability to stun, but imho it really doesn't... the extra hp/def that we supposedly get does NOT offset the range and power of a caster.

Go ahead try to be a bm in mass pvp... with decentish... gear... you'll find out quick just how effective those stuns are... they are NOT effective when the bm isn't able to get up close. (This DOES NOT mean that stuns aren't useful... reread that... I just said 'when not in end game gear/able to withstand hits... stuns are USELESS. <<) <-- get that through your all's thick *** skulls. <<

---

Ffs.. I am tired of pointing out the flaws in people thinking and getting blasted as a fail/being treated like I am one really stupid dolt/asinine person which clearly I am not... you all are just disagreeing with my stance on it... and that is more than fine... but the insults because you disagree with me are absolutely uncalled for and are 100% un needed. <<

WannaBM - Archosaur

Would be nice if there was some PvP system that matches equally geared people and keep track of statistics.

Ranged toons are OP compared to mellee ones in most games. Simply because range is such a huge advantage it is very hard to balance out. No doubt PWI does have a bunch of statistics to judge balance. I guess that lead them to help the mellees a bit. And surely it makes sence

-create more or less balanced game
-Create APS, allowing mellees to kill anyone they can have stuned for 3-4 seconds.
-Make purify for casters to let them get out of stun.
-Reduce significance of APS also by not letting them benefit much from r9 (xept for barbs of course, but who cares about those 2-3 crazy aps barbs)
-Now that everyone is DPH in PvP and unable to stun casters, it is time to bring back stun again.