Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

ovenusarmanio

JoeBlack - Harshlands wrote: »

One question??

The thread got almost 1500 pots but where are mods response here??

It is a non response because they can not change anything which they can not do by now,, they have to pay/invest on their own technical team or orginal Chinese dev team to fix,they need money and time but this game is on downhill. Unworthy to invest much on this instead of gaining as much as they can.

I do not believe there will be any changes in near future b:bye

1) There are mod responses in here, although be advised our opinion doesn't really matter. We are players just like you.

2) Mods are not GMs

3) Gms are not Devs

4) Devs are in China

FayHumming - Dreamweaver

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

1) There are mod responses in here, although be advised our opinion doesn't really matter. We are players just like you.

2) Mods are not GMs

3) Gms are not Devs

4) Devs are in China

+1 b:laugh All QQ and Troll here are useless.

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

nixop wrote: »

are you actually saying that skilled people that know how to play their class shouldnt be able to kill casters with knowing how to stun lock and use their skills??

in end game fights with same gears (not to even talk about being fully buffed) any physical dmg class wont be able to kill casters easy as you are saying(due to casters high pshy def or defense level self buffs)

No, you either misread or misunderstood what I was saying. Prior to the purify proc casters has a very difficult time with melee classes as they have no anti stun skills so in most cases (genies excluded) were at the mercy of skilled players that could lock them in place.

The proc therefore gives the caster an oppurtunity to get out of this situation and fight back so therefore it is achieving what it was designed for - to get out of stunlock sitations. It is probably a few years too late and the devs most likely didn't take into consideration how it would effect the game with the current gear levels. This includes the massive gear gap between r9rr and lower gear/levels and as a result mass pvp against a wide range of gear/skills has made it appear to be broken.

Tsyren - Dreamweaver

Have any of you considered changing Purify from a proc into more of a special skill-add on?

Clearly, everyone who wants Purify to remain the way it is is doing is mostly because Casters in general do not have effective antistuns.

We already know that Weapon fashion adds an emote, which could be considered a skill. Why not the same for a Rank 9 recast weapon?

Think of it like a weapon "fashion" that added an "emote" that actually had function.

If allowed as a skill that could work while stunned, casters would basically gain a valuable antiCC skill that could be controlled, meaning that they wouldn't have to rely on random %. This would favor those players who were more skilled, as they could time it, etc, and would also put players with the skill of a baboon in their place.

By adding a CD to this skill, perhaps 15 seconds or less, melee players would also benefit from this skill. In Nation Wars, teams would have maybe a 5 second window of CCtime now and then due to CD, which would be more than enough at equal gears. However, a Purify user could have an equal chance to simply continue on to the flag. Furthermore, skilled melees would be able to predict the use of Purify, and build a strategy around it, both in group pvp and 1v1. This would again, favor skilled players, and punish the fools accordingly.

I have always preferred a game based more on skill, and less on luck. This seems like a rather decent compromise to me.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Both fights 1 and 3 were very short, and I don't think they were very good examples for proc. As I'm sure you could see from the video, he was able to pressure/force me my limited defensive options constantly with just DD during his locks.. and in a longer 1v1 (like fight #2), without proc I would slowly but surely run out of defensive options. This may not sound like a bad thing, but he is able to keep his defensive options "replenished" so to speak so it would simply be a matter of time until I ran out of defenses (while he still had all of his) and it would become very one sided at that point. Purify allows for an occasional escape and allows a little more time for genie energy to regen and apoth to come off CD. If you wanted to remove/modify proc, at the very least for wiz vs sin.. sins would need some kind of nerf such as reduced chi gain or longer cd on control skills so that they were not able to force defensive options as frequently.

I am not claiming that sins are pefectly balanced. Sins are an excellent class at 1 v 1, and wizards are an excellent DD class who are possibly just as good at 1 v 1, if not better. For the sake of the arguement, lets say that wizards DO need purify proc against Assassins in 1 v 1. Purify is for an occasional escape. In that case, why are you so against any proposed modification? If that is what you believe, then surely there is no reason why purify need to proc multiple times in a row? For example, adding a cooldown of 15-20 seconds would not have affected the outcome of your fights at all. All of your purify proc, except the ones at the start of Fight 2, which was completely unnecssary, proced at least 20 seconds apart. And why purify? You do say that a reduced chi gain would be a good nerf for sins. Why not an increased chi gain for wizards? Infinite proc grants you 50 chi per proc. It would make you on par with sins as well, just in terms of chi gain, as opposed to CC.


However I feel that we are getting off topic. Wizard vs Assassin is a very specific case out of all 10 classes, and multiple difference scenario. None of this address the main question - Is purify proc balanced for all classes, in all cases? If assassins are the best 1 v 1 class, and purify proc balances fights against them, then we can easily draw conclusion that any classes lesser than Assassin in 1 v 1 would be unable to handle purify proc, and thus it would be overpowered. I think that your video was meant to prove that Assassin vs Wizard 1 v 1 is balanced with purify proc. But I did request some mass pk video in my original post way back when, and you haven't not managed to record any yet. So until we have videos of mass pk to go off of, I can't really work with much else, so I will have to base this off stories that you have told me.

Lets use your bm example.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You have to think that the defensive options for wizards and sins are very different.. sins genie/apoth + tidal/nerves/infinite chi, wizards get genie/apoth + purify. Obviously other classes are different.. bm vs wiz for example the bm is incredibly tanky and tbh.. I'd be surprised if an end game wiz could even kill a competent end game bm (and vice versa).. my guess is that it'd be a stalemate.

What do bms have to do to kill a wizard? They need at least 2 perfectly timed stuns to kill you. Your genie must be on cooldown. They need several crits and/or zerk to get pass your self buffed pdef. And finally, purify must not proc. Sure, wizards need to get pass their magic marrow, then their genie, and their stun lock. But You don't need to get pass purify. Without purify, its "3 to 3" - You both have 3 things to get over to kill the other, and it may be a stalemate since the defenses are hard to get pass. With purify proc, the balance swings in your favor as the bm now have 4 things they must get over.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you said somewhere that clerics have a hard time killing you due to not having enough damage. If that is the case, then purify proc is definitely unbalanced, is it not?

What about archers? They need to get pass everything listed above, but you only have to get pass their genie and their 1 survival skill - Wings of Grace (2 if you consider Alacrity which has a 3 min cooldown). Your fights against archers were already extremely 1 sided before you had jades even.

So I disagree that wizards, or any class for that matters, need purify proc to 1v1 every single class.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

It is true that casters are able to use damage reduction skills to ride through control skills, but casters still need to use immunes just the same as anyone else. Even if we didn't need immunes (which we certainly do), using different skills is simply a difference.. which is not in and of itself a problem. You also mentioned earlier that AFA is a cheap skill.. and it really is not. Wizards are essentially forced into high dex genies (a wizard without spark = lulz), and on a dex genie.. AFA is a huge cost, not to mention the obvious amp issue after the first 10 seconds. You seem to have this impression that survival on a caster/wizard is just hit wind shield and wait for purify, but unless you are fighting an aps char or someone that is crazy undergeared.. sitting there waiting for purify is going to lead to a very quick trip to town a lot of the time. Purify is a nice little boost when it goes off, not a reliable on demand defensive skill like genie/apoth is.

I may have the wrong impression, but based off what you had said in other threads, and your performances in your videos, it very much seems like you do get away spamming damage reduction alot of the time. I am unsure what to make of this.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I don't know of any full +12 josd clerics/mystics/venos on lost city.. although I have fought against several +10/+11 josd chars, which is relatively close (especially if they have buffs). I have never claimed that end game casters are "effortless eliminated", as they are not (nor is anything that is end game and competently played). They can be taken down relatively easily with a little coordination however.

I know this has already been posted in this thread, but a few weeks ago (maybe a month or more now.. can't remember) when I tried to enter NW.. 3 of us dc'd upon entering and when we got back into game and entered war, we ended up in a different nation from the rest of the squad. It was kinda funny because our split squad ended up fighting each other for a majority of the NW time. Long story short, it was a really really fun NW and our first battle we actually ran out of time. I was the only one grabbing flag for our side (at the time I was missing 2-3 pieces of josd, but pretty close to end game) and Azura doesn't have many josd but is full +11 full vit build veno that had full buffs the entire time (we had nobody that could purge). I can tell you that when I grabbed the flag, I scored once and died like 7 times (got kicked out and had made it back in because they were right at our base).. I would get purged + a few amps and drop almost instantly. Azura scored once and died 2-3 times, with me being pretty much the only one doing damage (meaning even if he had better gear, having another r9rr +12 char hitting him should be able to take him down.. especially with a purge/amps). The later battles were just frustrating for me, Bait was just harassing me so I couldn't get to the flags or stop the flag carrier.. so my pt had basically nobody that could carry flag and nobody that could kill the flag carrier, which meant we lost almost everything after the first battle. So anyway, I was dying to the same 2-3 people (Bait + full vit veno and +7/+8 support barb) frustratingly easy.. and Azura was dying full buffed basically just to me, so that is one example where I've had to deal with end game purify.. and even in the place where it is complained about the most.

There are no end game archers on LC that I think are competent, and actually most of the end game archers on LC are already in my videos..

/Wall of text

Thats unfortunate that there is no end game support classes. I guess by the looks of your videos, most people rolled DDs. I have personally fought against end game squads, as an end game character. Both by experience, and by theory, I don't think it is hard to see that a pure support class with proper support would be extremely difficult to take down with purify proc. I emphasize on proper support. Support classes do not have to focus on killing people, so they can both gear defensively and play defensively. If properly supported, they can easily hide behind DDs, making it hard enough to kill them. However, before purify proc, if you focus a support class, they must take care of themselves, leaving both their squad and themselves vulnerable. Now, purify takes care of them, they take care of their squad, and their squad takes care of you.

So based on your own story, Azura is difficult to kill alone, even without proper support (3:7 K/D ratio). When Bait supported him, it became extremely hard for you to win. I feel that this supports that purify proc gives support classes a massive advantage. While purify may balance 1 v 1 against Assassins, I do not believe that purify proc is perfectly balanced for all classes, for all cases.

Chuck_smith - Sanctuary

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

If they take sins out of the game, I'll happily give up purify proc, ijs.

I think you should uninstall the game if you still QQ about sins with having purify proc... As if they were difficult to kill to begin with (especially the ones that know how to play)

Darren_Kris - Morai

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But I did request some mass pk video in my original post way back when, and you haven't not managed to record any yet. So until we have videos of mass pk to go off of, I can't really work with much else, so I will have to base this off stories that you have told me.

she posted it here. i dont see any purify OPness as azura get stomped multiple times as does adroit

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Here's a video with some recent group pvp I just came across
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLuYEydahoM&feature=youtu.be

Anyone care to share what parts in the video they saw multiple opponents improving the survivability of a caster, or really just where the issue is? Like I said before, pointing to a time where purify procs is not an argument for it being OP (just like pointing to a time where gof procs does not mean it is OP).. we are looking for an imbalance (again not just the proc doing what it is supposed to do.. which is to help casters kite a little better).

Adroit - Lost City

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am not claiming that sins are pefectly balanced. Sins are an excellent class at 1 v 1, and wizards are an excellent DD class who are possibly just as good at 1 v 1, if not better. For the sake of the arguement, lets say that wizards DO need purify proc against Assassins in 1 v 1. Purify is for an occasional escape. In that case, why are you so against any proposed modification? If that is what you believe, then surely there is no reason why purify need to proc multiple times in a row? For example, adding a cooldown of 15-20 seconds would not have affected the outcome of your fights at all. All of your purify proc, except the ones at the start of Fight 2, which was completely unnecssary, proced at least 20 seconds apart. And why purify? You do say that a reduced chi gain would be a good nerf for sins. Why not an increased chi gain for wizards? Infinite proc grants you 50 chi per proc. It would make you on par with sins as well, just in terms of chi gain, as opposed to CC.

Adding a cd is a massive nerf to a skill where you don't get to choose when it works. I don't think I need to explain why, it'd just be very ripe for abuse. You see a mob trip the proc and now you jump on them to auto force a high cost genie skill.. I think you know what I'm talking about. Also, wizards need something to survive the offensive nature of sins.. not more offensive abilities our self. We needed something like purify to deal with the nearly limitless CC that a sin can use, chi is useless if you are never able to use it.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

However I feel that we are getting off topic. Wizard vs Assassin is a very specific case out of all 10 classes, and multiple difference scenario. None of this address the main question - Is purify proc balanced for all classes, in all cases? If assassins are the best 1 v 1 class, and purify proc balances fights against them, then we can easily draw conclusion that any classes lesser than Assassin in 1 v 1 would be unable to handle purify proc, and thus it would be overpowered. I think that your video was meant to prove that Assassin vs Wizard 1 v 1 is balanced with purify proc. But I did request some mass pk video in my original post way back when, and you haven't not managed to record any yet. So until we have videos of mass pk to go off of, I can't really work with much else, so I will have to base this off stories that you have told me.

There was no proving done anywhere.. simply some evidence given. I did post a video of group pvp on the previous page, it was posted earlier today.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lets use your bm example.


What do bms have to do to kill a wizard? They need at least 2 perfectly timed stuns to kill you. Your genie must be on cooldown. They need several crits and/or zerk to get pass your self buffed pdef. And finally, purify must not proc. Sure, wizards need to get pass their magic marrow, then their genie, and their stun lock. But You don't need to get pass purify. Without purify, its "3 to 3" - You both have 3 things to get over to kill the other, and it may be a stalemate since the defenses are hard to get pass. With purify proc, the balance swings in your favor as the bm now have 4 things they must get over.

You are vastly underestimated how good marrow is against a wizard. An end game bm is going to be over 20k hp unbuffed, and with an undine -> spark -> d.pyro will be taking ~5k non-crit. It is not possible to bypass them with marrow on without something like a triple spark -> chi pot -> undine -> spark -> BT (likely need a crit).. and obviously that is not going to work in anything other than a damage test where your opponent sits there doing absolutely nothing while you do it. It would be nearly impossible for a wizard to kill a well played end game bm 1v1, so purify making it difficult for the bm to kill the wizard is a good thing. You need to look at more than quantity of defenses, quality is just as important.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you said somewhere that clerics have a hard time killing you due to not having enough damage. If that is the case, then purify proc is definitely unbalanced, is it not?

Clerics have a hard time doing enough damage to break through my charm.. it has nothing to do with purify. Actually, purify is probably more useful to clerics than wizards in a cleric vs wiz because it is able to purify undine + genie spark.. and the main debuffs that a cleric uses are not purified from proc (absorb heals). There is also the mobility issue, I can blink away any time, a cleric needs to either waste a holy path or get a proc to get out.. so I do not think purify causes an imbalance for purify users vs purify users >.>

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What about archers? They need to get pass everything listed above, but you only have to get pass their genie and their 1 survival skill - Wings of Grace (2 if you consider Alacrity which has a 3 min cooldown). Your fights against archers were already extremely 1 sided before you had jades even.

So I disagree that wizards, or any class for that matters, need purify proc to 1v1 every single class.

I happen to think that archers are a pretty underpowered class when it comes to 1v1s and could probably use some kind of boost, but this is the case with or without purify proc. It really isn't game changing vs archers, an archer (even end game r9rr +12 josd ones) are easy one shots and simply don't have the cc or damage to put up much of a fight in a 1v1. Again, purify isn't the issue. Also I do not think purify is needed to 1v1 every class.. in many cases it is neutral, but there are some where I feel it is necessary for balance. I don't know of anything other than aps builds that it is really "OP" against (or I guess groups of undergeared players), but neither of these make me lose any sleep at night. It is probably impossible but definitely unreasonable to demand everything be "perfectly balanced in all cases", but it is close enough right now that I think it is fine.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thats unfortunate that there is no end game support classes. I guess by the looks of your videos, most people rolled DDs. I have personally fought against end game squads, as an end game character. Both by experience, and by theory, I don't think it is hard to see that a pure support class with proper support would be extremely difficult to take down with purify proc. I emphasize on proper support. Support classes do not have to focus on killing people, so they can both gear defensively and play defensively. If properly supported, they can easily hide behind DDs, making it hard enough to kill them. However, before purify proc, if you focus a support class, they must take care of themselves, leaving both their squad and themselves vulnerable. Now, purify takes care of them, they take care of their squad, and their squad takes care of you.

It really isn't as easy to survive as you are making it sound in group pvp (even with proc), but in group pvp both sides have access to the same things.. I find it hard to believe you could argue that there is an imbalance when both sides have access to the exact same thing.

Marengo - Lost City

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Caster classes all have higher damaging skills than the other classes.

Tell that to cleric or veno for example b:worried

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Caster classes all have a continuous passive buff that increases their physical defense. Other classes do not have one for mdef.

Gotta disagree partly. Psychics and venos have def buffs which decrease their attack ability greatly. Psychics do less damage, venos simply don't do any at all. What do you do with a target which doesn't attack? Correct, you counterattack investing all your resources into dealing damage and stunlocking and you don't bother to defend yourself since you are far from being killed. Cuz your targes who's just got out of def buff should spend at least several seconds to tick your charm.

Wizards do good damage due to genie spark and undine strike, they kite well with their leap but they are not the only casters in game, don't forget about that.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Caster classes do not miss.

Do physical classes miss casters? b:chuckle

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Caster classes have range advantage)

Seems like you taking into consideration only BMs speaking about noncasters and physical defence. Don't forget we have archers too who do pretty good damage from longer distance. And whats worse they purge. They are not even always kitable fast, cuz you'd better stay near if you want to recieve less damage and when puri proc you just lack time to get away far enough. Plus in mass pvp it's really hard to define fast who is attacking you at the moment. So if you are so eager to nerf classes, races and certain players, you'd better start thinking over other issues you can come across with b:chuckle


P.S. I see people are so biased concerning advantages/disadvantages. They QQ willingly here when a caster steals a flag from under their nose, but nobody came here saying "my party is too OP, our enemies couldn't kill us for so long time, i demand you nerf my mates and make us encounter better challenge" so far. Only endless "i can't kill", "i dd, it proc and they kite", "we couldn't catch", "lowbies prevent me from killing a caster" etc.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Fox form is not "decreasing attack abilities." I'd like to see a R93 veno not go fox form to purge another in a fight.

Psychics started it with all the passive means to mess people up with their seal buff. To kill an endgame psychic pretty much involves using a genie skill during attack, something archers have precious little of because they typically have to use chi, genie, and pills to defend themselves.

Onatop - Lost City

Keep purify, get rid of SOUL OF SILENCE and CHI BURN!!!

Marengo - Lost City

Quilue, purge itself doesn't kill. Till the time you are on back feet again after debuff session your target has refreshed charm, def charm, genie, whatever else. I don't deny purge is very important in pvp, but as i said, no use in it if you don't attack. Besides it can be immuned/faith/chi blocked. And you have to come close, it's not archer, easier to track and take measures. We also don't have god of frenzy to compensate low damage somehow. And we got puri, okay, not all casters are equal, but let us be pro runners then. But noooo, even running is too OP to someone's mind. Who is in this thread played all classes equally to judge what should be nerfed or removed? Prolly nobody. I don't understand why BMs keep complaining here, they kill casters just fine, even post vids with their achievements b:chuckle

And if you say fox isn't supposed to kill, just to debuff, i can also say you are not supposed to kill. Mass stun and leave killing to your casters with "OP damage" and puri spell

Decus - Dreamweaver

Marengo - Lost City wrote: »

Do physical classes miss casters? b:chuckle

Technically, they miss more than casters given that casters never miss. I've definitely missed a stunning arrow on casters before. It's rare, but it happens. What sucks more is that our CC can fail even if it doesn't miss, which is BS given that Aim Low costs a spark and the fact that our CC skills cannot purge a target.

As far as purify in NW goes, I'll say it again:

If the flag disables genie skills and applies a speed debuff, it should prevent you from mashing a movement key to get a capture. Game mechanic or not, it ought not be possible to capture a flag that way. People often say archers capture with ease, but we waste chi (alacrity costs a spark) and apo to do so. Purify has no CD.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Marengo - Lost City wrote: »

Quilue, purge itself doesn't kill. Till the time you are on back feet again after debuff session your target has refreshed charm, def charm, genie, whatever else. I don't deny purge is very important in pvp, but as i said, no use in it if you don't attack. Besides it can be immuned/faith/chi blocked. And you have to come close, it's not archer, easier to track and take measures. We also don't have god of frenzy to compensate low damage somehow. And we got puri, okay, not all casters are equal, but let us be pro runners then. But noooo, even running is too OP to someone's mind. Who is in this thread played all classes equally to judge what should be nerfed or removed? Prolly nobody. I don't understand why BMs keep complaining here, they kill casters just fine, even post vids with their achievements b:chuckle

And if you say fox isn't supposed to kill, just to debuff, i can also say you are not supposed to kill. Mass stun and leave killing to your casters with "OP damage" and puri spell

You talk like venos can't switch between the two forms, like there is some sort of prohibitive cost associated with going fox and returning to human form. At endgame, a lot of classes have to wait for a purge to kill a fully buffed opponent.

Anyway, why is it that you think you have to fight permanently in fox form to get the pdef bonus? It should be glaringly obvious what someone would do with fox form and why its pdef bonus would be beneficial. As a ranged robe class, you're not always on the offensive, especially against a melee opponent. Even barbs switch to tiger to protect themselves.

Marengo - Lost City

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote:

As far as purify in NW goes, I'll say it again:

If the flag disables genie skills and applies a speed debuff, it should prevent you from mashing a movement key to get a capture. Game mechanic or not, it ought not be possible to capture a flag that way.

And i'll say: why not? Who told you it ought not be possible? Maybe vice versa it must be possible. Did you read dev's mind? What do you have against casters capturing flags? You also have them on your side in battles. Why do you say its too hard for you to oppose but never say its too easy for you to assist them?

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote:

People often say archers capture with ease, but we waste chi (alacrity costs a spark) and apo to do so. Purify has no CD.

You won't believe, casters also "waste" chi and apo for delivering :DD because you don't rely on ps only if battle is hard and opponents chase you all way long and camp all points.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote:

You talk like venos can't switch between the two forms, like there is some sort of prohibitive cost associated with going fox and returning to human form.

Of course we can switch but it takes time, precious seconds.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote:

Anyway, why is it that you think you have to fight permanently in fox form to get the pdef bonus?

I didn't say i have to fight in fox, i can only debuff in fox. But if i go human i lose def bonus. It was my responce to "all mages have continuous pdef buff" statement.

Decus - Dreamweaver

Marengo - Lost City wrote: »

And i'll say: why not? Who told you it ought not be possible? Maybe vice versa it must be possible. Did you read dev's mind? What do you have against casters capturing flags? You also have them on your side in battles. Why do you say its too hard for you to oppose but never say its too easy for you to assist them?


You won't believe, casters also "waste" chi and apo for delivering :DD because you don't rely on ps only if battle is hard and opponents chase you all way long and camp all points.

You are debating conclusions I never made. When I mean I think it's unacceptable, I make an assumption based on the fact that the flag lowers speed and disables your genie. No, I cannot know the intention of the developers, but I choose not to accept everything at face value because people can and do frequently make errors. The same argument was made against aps earlier on in this game's life, and I thought it had merit as well.

I never said I had a problem with casters carrying and capturing flags, I have a problem with mashing movement keys and doing nothing. That's a balance and implementation issue. I never made any claims about any sides, so I am not sure where that point about "ease" originates. I find it unacceptable in any form, whether it aids or hinders me.

I also never said casters do not waste chi. I said the proc has no inherent drawback other than necessitating an attack. Whether that is a major drawback or not is an area of great debate, as far as this thread is concerned. The point stands: purify has no cooldown or chi cost. My speeds skills do.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are debating conclusions I never made. When I mean I think it's unacceptable, I make an assumption based on the fact that the flag lowers speed and disables your genie. No, I cannot know the intention of the developers, but I choose not to accept everything at face value because people can and do frequently make errors. The same argument was made against aps earlier on in this game's life, and I thought it had merit as well.

I never said I had a problem with casters carrying and capturing flags, I have a problem with mashing movement keys and doing nothing. That's a balance and implementation issue. I never made any claims about any sides, so I am not sure where that point about "ease" originates. I find it unacceptable in any form, whether it aids or hinders me.

I also never said casters do not waste chi. I said the proc has no inherent drawback other than necessitating an attack. Whether that is a major drawback or not is an area of great debate, as far as this thread is concerned. The point stands: purify has no cooldown or chi cost. My speeds skills do.

the problem is not purify, it is the implementation of the deuff from the flag.

the solution is for the flag to change the max speed variable, not the movement speed variable. if max was 3m/s it wouldnt matter what apoth, skill, genie or proc came into play.

purify isnt a pvp issue, its a nation war issue and its only that because of the crappy flag mechanic. im sure its annoying when your opponents weaon procs in pvp, but that is true for everyone.

Tyrion - Morai

nerf purify! qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq

Azura - Lost City

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I also never said casters do not waste chi. I said the proc has no inherent drawback other than necessitating an attack. Whether that is a major drawback or not is an area of great debate, as far as this thread is concerned. The point stands: purify has no cooldown or chi cost. My speeds skills do.

Spirit of Blackhole has no chi cost or cooldown. You just need to keep attacking.

God of Frenzy costs 5% hp, and has no cooldown either.

With purify you have to get hit to get a chance to get the prok.

The cheapest add-on here is blackhole spirit, since it costs nothing really. Why is it bad then that purify doesnt have a major drawback? All the other skills have no major drawbacks.

Marengo - Lost City

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are debating conclusions I never made. When I mean I think it's unacceptable, I make an assumption based on the fact that the flag lowers speed and disables your genie.

But skill and apo are not disabled. Is it enough to make some more assumptions?

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I never said I had a problem with casters carrying and capturing flags, I have a problem with mashing movement keys and doing nothing. That's a balance and implementation issue. I never made any claims about any sides, so I am not sure where that point about "ease" originates. I find it unacceptable in any form, whether it aids or hinders me.

Maybe it wasn't exactly you who said, a lot of ppl saying this and i deserve a monument for reading the whole topic b:surrender i adressed to you since you seemed to be on "nerfing" side. You find it unacceptable, but i strongly doubt you find purge bow unacceptable either, for example. Unacceptable issue... I'm pretty sure you don't know all about balance in this game, same as 99,99999% of other players. You play your class and defend it first of all. Balance is too complicated thing to restore it so easily just on the first request of ppl who disliked new feature they hadn't got used to yet.

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I also never said casters do not waste chi. I said the proc has no inherent drawback other than necessitating an attack. Whether that is a major drawback or not is an area of great debate, as far as this thread is concerned. The point stands: purify has no cooldown or chi cost. My speeds skills do.

PS is random, it may never proc. Skill is stable. If i can antistun with apo or skills i do it without hesitation. Else i'll be dead awating puri proc, i don't always have a crowd of tt60's on my tail to provide me with "perma holy path".

Decus - Dreamweaver

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

purify isnt a pvp issue, its a nation war issue and its only that because of the crappy flag mechanic.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Spirit of Blackhole has no chi cost or cooldown. You just need to keep attacking.

God of Frenzy costs 5% hp, and has no cooldown either.

With purify you have to get hit to get a chance to get the prok.

The cheapest add-on here is blackhole spirit, since it costs nothing really. Why is it bad then that purify doesnt have a major drawback? All the other skills have no major drawbacks.

Purge does have a limiting factor, though. It does not proc on skills with an applied debuff. GOF has no such drawback, I agree, but I've always thought zerk is just as ****. I am not a fan of procs on weapons at all, but the discussion I have is concerning Purify in NW. The very nature of that instance draws all fire (if the players are smart) to the flagcarrier, thereby circumventing the flag's speed reduction.

Ultimately, I don't have an issue with casters getting purify and I don't really mind the way it procs. I mind that it circumvents the limits of the flag.

Marengo - Lost City wrote: »

But skill and apo are not disabled. Is it enough to make some more assumptions?

You're welcomed to make your own interpretations. I didn't say yours are wrong. You are the one that criticized me for having mine. I see no purpose in limiting speed if it is so easily circumvented. Why does the flag slow you down at all? I said, far earlier in this thread, that the flag ought to limit movement speed. Whether it should prevent skills an apo is another matter entirely. Apothecary is for everyone and thus, effects everyone equally.

Maybe it wasn't exactly you who said, a lot of ppl saying this and i deserve a monument for reading the whole topic b:surrender i adressed to you since you seemed to be on "nerfing" side. You find it unacceptable, but i strongly doubt you find purge bow unacceptable either, for example. Unacceptable issue... I'm pretty sure you don't know all about balance in this game, same as 99,99999% of other players. You play your class and defend it first of all. Balance is too complicated thing to restore it so easily just on the first request of ppl who disliked new feature they hadn't got used to yet.

I do think archers having purge is ****, but it is what I have and I deal with it. I've said it before in other threads. Moreover, any endgame archer can attest to the overall weakness of their proc compared to zerk or purify. Still, you're arguing things that I've not talked about in an effort to... avoid what I said? No idea.

I don't speak about balance in such a manner as to imply that I know everything. I do not get why you keep making this claim. I am merely giving my opinion based on my interactions and my observations. If someone in my NW squad says "hold on, I am just waiting for my weapon to proc," then I do think that's a problem. I also have a general issue with game mechanics turning into random chance, but that walked out the door with the introduction of r9. I play many classes, and I do have experience with casters with purify weapons. Admittedly, I spend less time on said casters than I do on my archer, but why should I then not get a chance to voice my thoughts?

PS is random, it may never proc. Skill is stable. If i can antistun with apo or skills i do it without hesitation. Else i'll be dead awating puri proc, i don't always have a crowd of tt60's on my tail to provide me with "perma holy path".

My issue is with mechanics. I never said you had 'perma holy path.' Otherwise, see above.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Adding a cd is a massive nerf to a skill where you don't get to choose when it works. I don't think I need to explain why, it'd just be very ripe for abuse. You see a mob trip the proc and now you jump on them to auto force a high cost genie skill.. I think you know what I'm talking about. Also, wizards need something to survive the offensive nature of sins.. not more offensive abilities our self. We needed something like purify to deal with the nearly limitless CC that a sin can use, chi is useless if you are never able to use it.

Let me just get this straight. Adding a cooldown would be a massive nerf, because a mob could activate it... I find this extremely difficult to believe.

When was the last time a mob activated purify on you? Should we also take the time to appreciate that in your 1 v 1 with Bait, not a single mob was found? Arcane defense has a cooldown too, and could **** you over if it was activated by a mob. But you use it anyway and I don't see it getting abused. Defense charms have a cooldown, and a mob could tick it too. But you use it anyway and I don't see it getting abused.

Besides, who said you have to fight when purify procs? You have skill, don't you? You said it yourself, purify is meant for an escape. If it procs and you feel that you need purify to be on cooldown all the time, then go ahead and kite. You said that it is an occasional escape. A cooldown fits that description perfectly. Procing several times in a row is not an occasional escape - its a sin's tidal that purifies and gives you a speed boost all at the sametime. And if they DO take advantage of a "mis-proc" so to speak, then thats good planning on their part. +1 skill points to them.

Heres a better proposal for you. Purify proc with a cooldown that can proc on demand. Now that fits everything you said. Given everything you have told me thus far, I feel that this fits all of your criteria completely. If you demand that purify can constantly proc back to back, then I feel that there is a bit of bias in there.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

There was no proving done anywhere.. simply some evidence given. I did post a video of group pvp on the previous page, it was posted earlier today.

I don't know what this video is supposed to show. That a squad of unbuffed DDs with 1 veno, 1 veno and 1 barb can't beat a fully buffed squad with 4 bms? The fact that you guys survive better than BMs which are meant to be super tanky (12:48) and the fact that you guys survive at all under this situation is a perfectly good indication that its not balanced. 4 CC classes but you guys manage to survive for so long? What, are BMs completely useless now? Look at how fast Bait drops compared to you guys. Look at Azura tank (5:10 and 6:38) lol. Too bad no one supported his purges. Look at purify bailing both of you guys out from focus DD (4:42, 8:22, 9:06).

Is there a doubt as to why getting out of focus DD by 4 CC class is op, and why a support class with that same ability would be even worse?

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You are vastly underestimated how good marrow is against a wizard. An end game bm is going to be over 20k hp unbuffed, and with an undine -> spark -> d.pyro will be taking ~5k non-crit. It is not possible to bypass them with marrow on without something like a triple spark -> chi pot -> undine -> spark -> BT (likely need a crit).. and obviously that is not going to work in anything other than a damage test where your opponent sits there doing absolutely nothing while you do it. It would be nearly impossible for a wizard to kill a well played end game bm 1v1, so purify making it difficult for the bm to kill the wizard is a good thing. You need to look at more than quantity of defenses, quality is just as important.

I'm not underestimating how good marrow is against a wizard at all. I know very well that BMs and Wizards may be the only two class that can tank an undine spark combo without using their genie or purifying the debuffs. Maybe you're overestimating how good a BM's damage is. I highly doubt that a bm can kill a full josd wizard with full +12 end game gears without some equally insane combo, even without purify proc. The maximum damage a pure strength (which obviously no bm ever goes pure strength if they want to hit sins and archers) bm can do is 7.4k on you without any debuffs. Thats a zerk crit and still not even a charm bypass, and considering how low a bm's crit rate is, its going to be anywhere between 8% to 6%. All of their combos (HF, Cyclone) are obvious so its easy to avoid. What does this mean? It means that 92% of the time, they're going to tickle you. They can't charm bypass you, so they must get you to below 50% Hp THEN zerk crit. Even lower chance. Ontop of that, dex built bms will hit alot less. So an even lower chance.

I don't know if the bm in the video you linked was third cast or not, but most of his hits on you was in the 1k range.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I happen to think that archers are a pretty underpowered class when it comes to 1v1s and could probably use some kind of boost, but this is the case with or without purify proc. It really isn't game changing vs archers, an archer (even end game r9rr +12 josd ones) are easy one shots and simply don't have the cc or damage to put up much of a fight in a 1v1. Again, purify isn't the issue. Also I do not think purify is needed to 1v1 every class.. in many cases it is neutral, but there are some where I feel it is necessary for balance. I don't know of anything other than aps builds that it is really "OP" against (or I guess groups of undergeared players), but neither of these make me lose any sleep at night. It is probably impossible but definitely unreasonable to demand everything be "perfectly balanced in all cases", but it is close enough right now that I think it is fine.

If a class is underpowered to begin with, and then you boost the opponent, do you not agree that it makes that class even more underpowered? Whether or not Purify proc is the original reason, it most definitely is a reason. I am glad that you agree that purify is not needed to 1 v 1 every class. I got a different impression from your original post. You agree that in many cases, it is neutral. If that is the case, then there should be nothing wrong with a proposed modification? If in many cases, it doesn't matter whether purify procs or not, then I see no reason why a modification would nerf the proc so much as to give you a massive disadvantage.

And not going to talk about 1 v 1 clerics since thats going to be like 1 v 1 with sins all over again.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

It really isn't as easy to survive as you are making it sound in group pvp (even with proc), but in group pvp both sides have access to the same things.. I find it hard to believe you could argue that there is an imbalance when both sides have access to the exact same thing.

You and Azura already survived extremely well without any support and barely buffed. If you guys had more support, I think the implication is pretty clear.

Just because both sides have access to the same thing, does not mean that by default it is not OP. If GMs were to declare that from now on, all sins will get GM cape and GM swords, would you claim that sins are not op in mass pk because both sides will have sins?

Marengo - Lost City

Decus, i never said you can't give your opinions. And didn't critisize you, just asked questions.

Decus wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

What's the problem then? It the matter of time, we'll get redesigned NW )

Decus wrote:

Moreover, any endgame archer can attest to the overall weakness of their proc compared to zerk or purify.

Archers have insane critrate in addition to atk lvl. Main problem is that its hard to tank them unimmuned and you can't use chi expensive def skills since you can lose both - chi and buff in no time. But it's only my personal issues with EAs, maybe others feel fine and don't consider it as a threat xd
Nevertheless i never QQed about EAs, we have to deal with what we have.

Decus wrote:

I play many classes, and I do have experience with casters with purify weapons. Admittedly, I spend less time on said casters than I do on my archer, but why should I then not get a chance to voice my thoughts?

Depends on char a lot. Puri hardly helps if you are +5+7. You can voice your thoughts but still your main is ea, not a caster, it's hard to believe you are fully neutral )

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

The main problem I have with Purify is that it takes what made archers slightly special and gave it away for free. Archers have the worst defenses in the game and one of the only things archers have going for them is their 2 anti stuns.

Wing of Grace -> 1sec channel, 12s anti stun + small damage reduction for 1 spark
Alacrity -> instant channel, 3 min cooldown, 8s anti stun + speed for 1 spark 

Purify Spell -> instant, no cooldown, no chi cost, passive skill, purify, speed

Why am I burning sparks left and right for something casters are getting for free as a passive ability that works while already stunned? Archers now have the special honor of having the worst defense and the worst mobility in the game.

Marengo - Lost City

Asterelle wrote:

The main problem I have with Purify is that it takes what made archers slightly special and gave it away for free

Look who's talking You also got veno's ability to purge, but better: without 6sec waiting for foxform cd and 25/30s purge cd

Azura - Lost City

People complaining that now they are the weakest class...It happens a lot in PW. Happened to my class, happened to others, and maybe yours will be next. Accept it, or leave are the options.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Moving this up again because...

A: it counters 90% of "but other procs OP too" QQ
B: it counters "But purify not OP QQ"
C: Because math didnt magically go away when casters got purify

True I mean look at the classes that use GoF to charm bypass with crit zerks off that 25% chance....and the 30% or so crit rate... its like theres a 8% or lower chance to crit zerk

And mele crit or zerk = caster normal hit...

Wow looking at the chances purify gives waaay more bang for your buck in any situation dosent it?

Seriously sit down and look at the number of hits it takes each non purify class to kill a self buffed purify class

then work out how much luck either side needs

Hell Assume w/e gear level you want I worked these out at +10 full R999 JOSD and +12 full R999 josd when I bothered

Turns out purify has a pretty stupidly high chance of procing before the attacking procs become relevant on someone at endgame gear even in a 1v1.

(damage needed to kill)/(# of hits in longest stun time x DPH) = extra damage fron crit/zerks needed just divide this by base damage and you'll see how many times crit/zerk is needed. Hint its lower than an 8% chance most of the time self buffed and ALWAYS lower fully buffed

for SBH its # of hits to proc SBH+# of hits needed to kill x 8/100 = chance of purify

Again purify will go off before kill most of the time. (If I remember right its like a 3 to once chance of purify getting you out before the kill)

So in relevant situations purify has the highest chance of any proc to activate when its most needed AND the greatest impact on the game AND completely breaks group pvp AND breaks quite a bit of pve

Dude

ya'll are just thuper shpethal if you think this proc is balanced anywhere outside the purify/purify mirror

That said purify has only a very small impact when your geni/apoc/ save me skills are on CD and someone can threaten lethal damage at a decent % chance. However with the increased chance of escaping elsewhere the ability to focus ONLY on immediately lethal situations instead of only potentially lethal situations means that the chances of being caught in a "well bugger" situation are slim enough that they can be ignored entirely

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

People complaining that now they are the weakest class...It happens a lot in PW. Happened to my class, happened to others, and maybe yours will be next. Accept it, or leave are the options.

Veno's only complained...ever, because the average veno has the IQ of a small rock

Good in 1v1 pvp: check
Good in TW/mass pvp: check
Wanted in pve: check
Solo ability: check

Adroit - Lost City

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Heres a better proposal for you. Purify proc with a cooldown that can proc on demand. Now that fits everything you said. Given everything you have told me thus far, I feel that this fits all of your criteria completely. If you demand that purify can constantly proc back to back, then I feel that there is a bit of bias in there.

That'd be fine by me, it'd actually probably be better than the current proc because you can choose when to use it.. lolz

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't know what this video is supposed to show. That a squad of unbuffed DDs with 1 veno, 1 veno and 1 barb can't beat a fully buffed squad with 4 bms? The fact that you guys survive better than BMs which are meant to be super tanky (12:48) and the fact that you guys survive at all under this situation is a perfectly good indication that its not balanced. 4 CC classes but you guys manage to survive for so long? What, are BMs completely useless now? Look at how fast Bait drops compared to you guys. Look at Azura tank (5:10 and 6:38) lol. Too bad no one supported his purges. Look at purify bailing both of you guys out from focus DD (4:42, 8:22, 9:06).

Is there a doubt as to why getting out of focus DD by 4 CC class is op, and why a support class with that same ability would be even worse?

The video was just a demonstration of end game pvp.. it is up to you to tell me where the problem lies with purify. You are comparing a bm that is not even full +10 to the survival of a full +12 josd wizard with psy buffs, you don't see a problem with that? You are cherry picking parts in the video, why not mention the part where a +7/+8 barb tanked 3-4 +12 r9rr chars after getting dragoned (starts at 1:30), or how I got insta killed @2:45.. or the countless times that casters were killed in this video. BMs are fine, they add to DD.. disable people with stuns/seals/disarm + have amps, just watch the video. You also did exactly what I addressed in my post, you simply pointed out when purify proc'd (you know.. doing what it is supposed to do).. it'd be like me pointing to times where gof allowed someone to bypass someone else and saying well it worked, therefore it is OP.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm not underestimating how good marrow is against a wizard at all. I know very well that BMs and Wizards may be the only two class that can tank an undine spark combo without using their genie or purifying the debuffs. Maybe you're overestimating how good a BM's damage is. I highly doubt that a bm can kill a full josd wizard with full +12 end game gears without some equally insane combo, even without purify proc. The maximum damage a pure strength (which obviously no bm ever goes pure strength if they want to hit sins and archers) bm can do is 7.4k on you without any debuffs. Thats a zerk crit and still not even a charm bypass, and considering how low a bm's crit rate is, its going to be anywhere between 8% to 6%. All of their combos (HF, Cyclone) are obvious so its easy to avoid. What does this mean? It means that 92% of the time, they're going to tickle you. They can't charm bypass you, so they must get you to below 50% Hp THEN zerk crit. Even lower chance. Ontop of that, dex built bms will hit alot less. So an even lower chance.

I don't know if the bm in the video you linked was third cast or not, but most of his hits on you was in the 1k range.

... so a wizard has almost no hope of killing an end game BM, but you think the BM should have it easier killing a wizard? The bm can't kill the wizard.. and the wizard can't kill the bm, where is the balance issue again?

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If a class is underpowered to begin with, and then you boost the opponent, do you not agree that it makes that class even more underpowered? Whether or not Purify proc is the original reason, it most definitely is a reason. I am glad that you agree that purify is not needed to 1 v 1 every class. I got a different impression from your original post. You agree that in many cases, it is neutral. If that is the case, then there should be nothing wrong with a proposed modification? If in many cases, it doesn't matter whether purify procs or not, then I see no reason why a modification would nerf the proc so much as to give you a massive disadvantage.

And not going to talk about 1 v 1 clerics since thats going to be like 1 v 1 with sins all over again.

So if it is neutral in some cases, but necessary in others.. how do you go from that to saying therefore it should be modified? That'd be like saying arcane defense is useful against aps chars but neutral against magic chars.. therefore there would be no problem modifying/removing it. That makes no sense at all.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You and Azura already survived extremely well without any support and barely buffed. If you guys had more support, I think the implication is pretty clear.

Well that is what is supposed to happen with full r9rr +11/12 and some jades. How many times did you see NyKage in the video? How about Victory_V? End game characters are tanky, that is how it works. I don't think it'd be very balanced if I was squishy and had an extremely difficult time killing equally geared opponents. As it is, we are both very difficult to kill.. which is how it should be imo.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just because both sides have access to the same thing, does not mean that by default it is not OP. If GMs were to declare that from now on, all sins will get GM cape and GM swords, would you claim that sins are not op in mass pk because both sides will have sins?

Ofc not, but that isn't even close to the scenario we've been talking to though.

Azura - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Veno's only complained...ever, because the average veno has the IQ of a small rock

Okay... let's randomly throw insults And the average bm is like a headless chicken.
Good in 1v1 pvp: check
Good in TW/mass pvp: check
Wanted in pve: check
Solo ability: check

Now yes, but after the tideborn expansion came out it was a horrible time to be a veno. It was like this:

PvP: Veno's damage was too low while other's where higher. Specially sins and psys after the tideborn expansion.

TW/mass pvp: Venos were just a debuff tool. Reroll to sage so you are actually worthy....

PvE: There was so much craze with aps and sins that it was impossible to get a squad to farm in nirvana. Then the devs made HH harder, so it became impossible to farm some instances of HH. Venos had to farm low level HH for just a few coins.

Solo ability: What solo ability? The ability to solo grind from 1-100 (so boring...). Ok I'll give you that much.

Ability to solo frost so you can level faster? Although technically possible, it was inefficient compared to what sins, bms, or barbs could do.

Ability to solo farm? read above

So yeah, after psys/sins appeared. All those venos who used to pk disappeared because psys and sins were better for farming or pk. And, not only the tideborn were better at that time, every class could do anything that was special about venos.

Debuff: archer can do it, and better
Lure in instances: anyone can do it with a genie
Solo stuff: sins could do it much better

I think venos didn't even complain about this. Everyone accepted it (like me) or rerolled. And if they did complain, I didn't have time to qq in forums, cause I wanted to keep going without care to the difficulty.