Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

Kniraven - Lost City

Purify Proc is broken and should be modified for the following reasons:

1.) It can have up to 20 chances to proc per second.

2.) The proc makes it so that any player who's DPH is not approximately 12% the wielder's health minimum ends up effectively helping the wielder no matter what side of the fight they are on.
(To efficiently kill someone with purify proc [5%-8% proc rate] you must take out 150% their hp in 11-19 hits, this must be done in less than 10 seconds so that their charm doesn't tick)

3.) Purify proc creates frequent scenarios where increasing the opponent's enemies benefits them. Lesser geared players can not even group up in order to kill someone that has significant;y superior gear.

4.) In the event that someone with purify proc, and someone with equal gear but without purify proc are fighting, every lesser geared combatant benefits the person with purify no matter who they attempt to help.
(If they attack the person with it, their negligible damage creates more opportunity for the weapon to proc with little to no cost to the wielder. If they attack the person without it, they can do nothing but assist the wielder.)

5.) Enemies of those who have purify proc are dependent on the total inaction of all lesser geared players around them.

6.) Because purify proc creates a need for maximum damage in minimal strikes, melee classes are forced to compete in DPH when combating caster classes, which is not possible.
(Casters need 100 magic to advance their dmg modifier, All other classes need 150 dex/str.
Caster classes all have higher damaging skills than the other classes.
Caster classes have higher damaging weapons than the other classes.
Caster classes need less points in areas outside their damage stat to wear their gears.
Caster classes all have a continuous passive buff that increases their physical defense. Other classes do not have one for mdef.
Caster classes do not miss.
Caster classes have range advantage)

Adroit - Lost City

@Kniraven

1. This is a description, not an argument. Besides, spirit blackhole has the potential to proc nearly infinite number of times in a second (however many people can get hit by barrage at the same time).. so I'm not sure what makes you think this is even remotely convincing.

2. Not true, you have totally neglected skill effects (such as amps/control skills) and the proc does not go off on the 20th hit every time. Sometimes it won't proc in 30 hits, sometimes not in 40. There are also skills that remove your weapon so that it cannot proc, as well as skills that just don't have a chance to proc the weapon at all (blade tornado, mark of weakness, dots, etc etc). On top of all that, purify is not an immune.. if proc does not go off early enough you can more than easily kill the caster with ranged skills as they are running away. Again this argument is not even remotely convincing.

3. If you qualified the statement with undergeared/noob players, your claim might be true. I don't have any problem with a bunch of noobs being unable to take down one well geared well played character.. but that is a matter of opinion I suppose.

4. Not true, as has been said before.. they can easily contribute against the caster by just using control skills/amps etc without trying to DD them for 2 or 3 digit damage.

5. Again no, explained several times in points above.

6. Description, not an argument. It's not even a good description either, it is simply a list of the pros of casters without any mention of the cons or the advantages to melee. Where is your comparison of control skills, how about base hp or class specific skills such as tidal/deaden/marrows etc? I think it is borderline dishonest to write a description such as that, cherry picking a few advantages to make it sound like there is some imbalance.. cmon now Kniraven.

Kniraven - Lost City

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

a) Why does it have up to 20? What if 100 people hit you?
b) Why is 20 the magic number? Why not 4 (=aps gof)?


why is that bad?


why is that bad?


fixed. they can still CC/debuff



see above


false. casters hit harder but melees have better defenses. so melees have to compete with casters' defenses. additionally, usually the archers are supposed to be the robe killers


false.

I ignored this post because it was stupid and anyone who knows the game and it's mechanics souls have known it was stupid right off the bat.

But I'll reply since apparently some ppl want me to.

1.)20 is the maximum times it procs per second because the game does math in increments of 0.05. 0.05 x 20 = 1 whole.


2.) It's bad because it is ridiculously overpowered. Duh? It is the reason melees have to compete in dph and why lesser geared opponents can't even gank a caster.

3.) Um.. Because more people attacking you shouldn't make you more likely to win? Ahur dur dur.

4.) Almost all debuffs, cc, etc skills also have a chance to activate purify. Almost all of them deal damage. Nobody should have to rely on or hope that everyone around them doesn't make any action. Every non caster is impeded by even the smallest action of anyone who hits them. It's a one way street scenario and it's broken.

4.) Casters have better defenses AND better attack at the end of the game. Everyone else just has higher hp. You have no idea what you're talking about.

5.) Every single caster class in the game has a continuous passive buff that increases their defense against phy dmg. This is not false, and you're an idiot.


@ Adroit, see 4, 5.
And the few skills that don't proc it (very few), nobody has control over what less competent people around them do. Casters have no such reliance or need for people surrounding them to be competent or not participate

Lastly, a list of control skills and what not would not be in the least bit relevant to whether or not melee classes can compete with casters in DPH.
Perhaps you should make a counter argument that we don't have to compete in dph?

AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You have no proof to say that this is the case, we could just as easily say the same about those who wish to keep the proc.

Which is precisly why you cannot say that people want Puri proc removed due to the votes cast (no pun intended).

Adroit - Lost City

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

4.) Casters have better defenses AND better attack at the end of the game. Everyone else just has higher hp. You have no idea what you're talking about.

5.) Every single caster class in the game has a continuous passive buff that increases their defense against phy dmg. This is not false, and you're an idiot.


@ Adroit, see 4, 5.
And the few skills that don't proc it (very few), nobody has control over what less competent people around them do. Casters have no such reliance or need for people surrounding them to be competent or not participate

4. If you were talking specifically about physical and magic defenses and magic attack vs physical attack.. maybe, depends what class you are talking about. This is again way oversimplified though, you haven't mentioned effects on skills.. amps, rate of attacks, or any other relevant stats that go into the balance equation. From reading your posts it would sound like an end game wiz would dominate an end game bm.. which is not even close to the case. End game bms are crazy tanky and extremely difficult to take down, they may not do as much damage.. but they more than make up for it in control skills and survivability.
5. Let me modify a couple words for you to make your statement much less misleading. Every single class in the game has a continuous passive buff that increases their defense against some kind of damage.

You are starting to annoy me with these one sided misleading arguments. Let's hear something big picture which takes everything into account. If you'd like, you can start with this video of TheDan vs U_Sasuke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFzHt91-ldk, and tell me what parts in here you see an issue (or perhaps you don't think there is an issue at +10 gear.. and we'll go from there). Remember pointing to a time where purify procs is not an argument.. you need to point out where it causes an imbalance (for example.. if the wiz were to be able to easily kill the bm, but the bm could not easily kill the wiz due to purify in an equal geared/skilled fight, that would be an issue). If you give one of the same arguments that you've already given and I've refuted over and over again, I'm going to simply ignore you. I'm tired of repeating myself, just fyi.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

>Spends most of his time on this thread saying that Purify Spell only matters at end game
>Any imbalance before end game is irrelevant
>Gameplay at less than end game is irrelevant
>Uses a video of a non end game caster against a BM with higher refined gear to "prove" a point


all of my wat

In any case, didn't we already establish that it's not that OP 1v1, but mucks up group pretty hardcore? Casters don't even need Purify Spell, just skill at their class and proper genie timing. Like everyone else. You know, the people who can't get randomly bailed out of a stunlock. Using sins as a comparison, saying that because sins get infinite chi and that eventually you would have been out of resources while he conserved his is just stupid because that doesn't apply only to Arcanes. Melees and Archers suffer from that as well, find something else to cling to.

Kniraven - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

4. If you were talking specifically about physical and magic defenses and magic attack vs physical attack.. maybe, depends what class you are talking about. This is again way oversimplified though, you haven't mentioned effects on skills.. amps, rate of attacks, or any other relevant stats that go into the balance equation. From reading your posts it would sound like an end game wiz would dominate an end game bm.. which is not even close to the case. End game bms are crazy tanky and extremely difficult to take down, they may not do as much damage.. but they more than make up for it in control skills and survivability.
5. Let me modify a couple words for you to make your statement much less misleading. Every single class in the game has a continuous passive buff that increases their defense against some kind of damage.

You are starting to annoy me with these one sided misleading arguments. Let's hear something big picture which takes everything into account. If you'd like, you can start with this video of TheDan vs U_Sasuke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFzHt91-ldk, and tell me what parts in here you see an issue (or perhaps you don't think there is an issue at +10 gear.. and we'll go from there). Remember pointing to a time where purify procs is not an argument.. you need to point out where it causes an imbalance (for example.. if the wiz were to be able to easily kill the bm, but the bm could not easily kill the wiz due to purify in an equal geared/skilled fight, that would be an issue). If you give one of the same arguments that you've already given and I've refuted over and over again, I'm going to simply ignore you. I'm tired of repeating myself, just fyi.

I'm the one having to repeat myself for no reason right now... Not you.
I have no problem whatsoever with purify proc in a 1 v 1 scenario. I've said that so many times now, and even said it specifically in reply to you.

To address your other points, yes you're right. Blademasters can increase their pdef with Bell, and it is continuous and passive. Barbs may also increase their pdef with tiger form. Archers and sins can.. Increase their evasion lol? They have nothing that increases their actual defenses.

All casters have a passive pdef/defense level buff that protects them from phy dmg. ALL of them.



EDIT) i just realized i put "4.)" twice. I was referring you to the first "4.)" not the second one

Adroit - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In any case, didn't we already establish that it's not that OP 1v1, but mucks up group pretty hardcore?

Nope. Maybe you've conceded that it is fine in 1v1s, but I can guarantee you not everyone has. This is imo the easiest place to show that purify is not unbalanced, the least variables are involved so it is easier than anything else to look at. I don't think it is OP in group pvp either, but I figured I'd tackle the 1v1 issue first and if/when we are all on the same page I'd move on to group pvp.

Kniraven - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Nope. Maybe you've conceded that it is fine in 1v1s, but I can guarantee you not everyone has. This is imo the easiest place to show that purify is not unbalanced, the least variables are involved so it is easier than anything else to look at. I don't think it is OP in group pvp either, but I figured I'd tackle the 1v1 issue first and if/when we are all on the same page I'd move on to group pvp.

The only people who argue that it is overpowered 1v1 are *******. I haven't said that it was in a single post.

Euzebe - Sanctuary

Seems whenever people here say 1v1 they refer to equally geared opponents, but group pvp refers to endgame caster vs some scrubs. A caster doesn't fare that much better against multiple equally geared opponents than a BM or Barb would.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Euzebe - Sanctuary wrote: »

Seems whenever people here say 1v1 they refer to equally geared opponents, but group pvp refers to endgame caster vs some scrubs. A caster doesn't fare that much better against multiple equally geared opponents than a BM or Barb would.

Except when they find a get out of debuff free card.

Euzebe - Sanctuary

It doesn't proc on command, it'll MAYBE save the caster a couple times in the fight, but the odds still on the equally geared BM and Barb to outright go through the casters HP in 2-3 seconds, especially since most melee can lock a caster in place without a damage dealing skill.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Euzebe - Sanctuary wrote: »

It doesn't proc on command, it'll MAYBE save the caster a couple times in the fight, but the odds still on the equally geared BM and Barb to outright go through the casters HP in 2-3 seconds, especially since most melee can lock a caster in place without a damage dealing skill.

'course it can also set off the proc. Oh lawdy you silly boo.

Since when does an equally geared BM/Barb go through a Caster's HP in 2-3 seconds at end game? You do realize that's two skills at max right?

Euzebe - Sanctuary

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

'course it can also set off the proc. Oh lawdy you silly boo.

Since when does an equally geared BM/Barb go through a Caster's HP in 2-3 seconds at end game? You do realize that's two skills at max right?

what's "it"? I didn't refer to any specific skill that can lock a caster in place without setting off proc, but, off the top of my head, there's Roar, Occult Ice and w/e that short stun is that barbs have.

Since it's multiple equally geared opponents hitting at once, you can certainly go through a casters HP that quickly.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Euzebe - Sanctuary wrote: »

what's "it"? I didn't refer to any specific skill that can lock a caster in place without setting off proc, but, off the top of my head, there's Roar, Occult Ice and w/e that short stun is that barbs have.

Since it's multiple equally geared opponents hitting at once, you can certainly go through a casters HP that quickly.

"It" refers to any damaging status move. Drake Bash, Stunning Arrow, and the like. Majority of status inflicting moves cause damage, and you can't overlap stuns so once Roar's used the rest will end up causing damage unless there's multiple BMs who can chain it properly, which is doubtful in a group PvP situation. Let's also remember that for the duration of the stun the weapon can be activated unless under the effects of a skill that unequips the weapon.

You said a Barb or BM, you did not state that it was a group situation in which multiple people aside from either of those classes are attacking the target. Even so, if that arcane dies in 2-3 seconds chances are nothing would really save them. It isn't normal to drop that fast.

Kniraven - Lost City

Euzebe - Sanctuary wrote: »

what's "it"? I didn't refer to any specific skill that can lock a caster in place without setting off proc, but, off the top of my head, there's Roar, Occult Ice and w/e that short stun is that barbs have.

Since it's multiple equally geared opponents hitting at once, you can certainly go through a casters HP that quickly.

You're off base.
Did you even read my arguments?
They were a comparison of performance between those with and without purify in similar circumstances AND a comparison between what additional combatants of lesser gear means to each in an initially equal geared fight.

To put it simply for you, 20 people in bad gear can gank and destroy someone without purify with overwhelming numbers, continuous cc, and permanent stunlock.

Those same 20 badly geared people would continuously proc the weapon of someone with purify, allowing them to break stun, remove debuffs, and counter attack.

This is one way that casters vastly outperform everyone else.

The other, is in situations that would otherwise be even. If for example a caster and a non-caster were fighting one another and additional combatants joined in on the action;
If their damage was poor they would either help the caster by giving their proc additional chances to activate (Almost every debuff/amp/etc also is a chance to activate the proc so don't even go there) OR they would help the caster by attacking the non-caster who gains no advantage whatsoever from losing bits of their hp and being debuffed etc.


THAT is what we are talking about.

There was also another tangent where purify proc supporters were saying, "Well that's the noobs fault for being dumb and trying to participate" or "Well you should just kill the noobs."

Euzebe - Sanctuary

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

"It" refers to any damaging status move. Drake Bash, Stunning Arrow, and the like. Majority of status inflicting moves cause damage, and you can't overlap stuns so once Roar's used the rest will end up causing damage unless there's multiple BMs who can chain it properly, which is doubtful in a group PvP situation. Let's also remember that for the duration of the stun the weapon can be activated unless under the effects of a skill that unequips the weapon.

You said a Barb or BM, you did not state that it was a group situation in which multiple people aside from either of those classes are attacking the target. Even so, if that arcane dies in 2-3 seconds chances are nothing would really save them. It isn't normal to drop that fast.

This whole thread is a complaint about the group situation, it's even been said specifically that 1v1s weren't the topic of discussion.

Of course damage dealing skills have a chance to proc, but there are options, especially in group pvp, to disable, hinder, amp or purge the caster without dealing damage.

Maybe you are bent on defining scenarios specific to your argument, but both from experience and watching videos, I've seen endgame casters go down quickly with 2-3 equally geared chars on them.

Kniraven - Lost City

Euzebe - Sanctuary wrote: »

I've seen endgame casters go down quickly with 2-3 equally geared chars on them.

Read my post above. This is NOT what we are talking about.
Please ignore Zanryu, and Zanryu please ignore him. You are both creating a mess or garbage BS side tangents unnecessary to the thread.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Euzebe - Sanctuary wrote: »

This whole thread is a complaint about the group situation, it's even been said specifically that 1v1s weren't the topic of discussion.

Of course damage dealing skills have a chance to proc, but there are options, especially in group pvp, to disable, hinder, amp or purge the caster without dealing damage.

Maybe you are bent on defining scenarios specific to your argument, but both from experience and watching videos, I've seen endgame casters go down quickly with 2-3 equally geared chars on them.

Then perhaps you shouldn't phrase things in such a way that they're interpreted as a 1v1. 'cause dat mess was interpreted as such. "Caster go down to a BM or Barb". That's 1v1. Silly.

Only Venos can purge without dealing damage, which has a pretty long cooldown. Purge is essentially good game in group PvP is that target can't get support though, which is always fun stuff.

Tell me, why should a caster get Purify Spell just because they go down quickly in a 2-3v1 scenario against equally geared players? They're meant to deal damage, not take it or get out of debuffs. "Because HA does it"? Hell no, that makes no sense at all.

Euzebe - Sanctuary

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Read my post above. This is NOT what we are talking about

Your 20 badly geared allies would be in town rebuffing after the press of a Vac or Faith/IG or whatever, even without this proc. 20 badly geared characters also likely couldn't kill a barb equally geared to this caster.

Continue, but like I said, specific scenarios to suit the argument.

Kniraven - Lost City

Euzebe - Sanctuary wrote: »

Your 20 badly geared allies would be in town rebuffing after the press of a Vac or Faith/IG or whatever, even without this proc. 20 badly geared characters also likely couldn't kill a barb equally geared to this caster.

Continue, but like I said, specific scenarios to suit the argument.

Unlike a caster, melee toons need to be right next to their enemy and they all need to be standing right next to each other to kill them in the duration of an immune pot.

_Mg_Zr - Harshlands

I can honestly say i have never had that much trouble with purify weapons. I am not by any means either wearing OP gear, got r9 with +5-8 refines and immac citrines oh and im a claw barb build, and any time i have fought a purify wep the only time they gave me trouble was if they had +10 or higher refines on armour and JOSD shards. Still though id imagine once i get my own third cast it should close that gap.

marvinhuddleston

Crazybladema - Harshlands wrote: »

Not when the numbers are backed by bad sampling. Theres only a 3% difference between those who want purify removed/modified and those that want to keep it.

Its a biased poll that suffers from bad sampling and doesn't prove much. It only proves that this is a very dividing issue and something probably should be done.

Considering the reaction this poll invoked.

Bad sampling ? LOL Only in your eyes and only because the numbers dont support you . At no time has the numbers ever supported removal or nerfing and half of the time this thread is a pissing contest or is totally off of subject ... You are against purify because YOU cant beat it ... The purify proc comes on a lvl 13 base weapon , ever hear of anyone with that weapon winning a 20 v 1 ? No ... because it isnt the proc , it's the rank 9 3rd cast thats can .

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

marvinhuddleston wrote: »

Bad sampling ? LOL Only in your eyes and only because the numbers dont support you . At no time has the numbers ever supported removal or nerfing and half of the time this thread is a pissing contest or is totally off of subject ... You are against purify because YOU cant beat it ... The purify proc comes on a lvl 13 base weapon , ever hear of anyone with that weapon winning a 20 v 1 ? No ... because it isnt the proc , it's the rank 9 3rd cast thats can .

Because people would spend money refining an inferior weapon when R9 exists right? Were people to use said weapon, it could be used defensively. In any case, the availability of such a proc on an end game weapon is pretty broken as it stands. The ability to get out of debuffs and inflict massive damage doesn't seem like it was very well thought out.

marvinhuddleston

The purify proc comes on a lvl 13 base weapon , ever hear of anyone with that weapon winning a 20 v 1 ?
Yes or No
If the your answer is no , then thank you for proving it isnt the proc , but the end game gear .

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

marvinhuddleston wrote: »

The purify proc comes on a lvl 13 base weapon , ever hear of anyone with that weapon winning a 20 v 1 ?
Yes or No
If the your answer is no , then thank you for proving it isnt the proc , but the end game gear .

You do realize that even without R9r3 weapons, anything with Purify Proc is gonna be running around getting debuffs removed. Right?

marvinhuddleston

Yes or No

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

marvinhuddleston wrote: »

Yes or No

Equal gears yeah kid. That's the whole point. Equal gear. Not G13 vs R9r3. R9r3 v R9r3 at equal refines. You're an idiot.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Equal gears yeah kid. That's the whole point. Equal gear. Not G13 vs R9r3. R9r3 v R9r3 at equal refines. You're an idiot.

He is not an idiot, he is right. this thread is about pury weapon. b:chuckle

marvinhuddleston

You could'nt answer my question without proving yourself wrong .. So instead you try insultng me with name calling ... Grow up