Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Let me just get this straight. Adding a cooldown would be a massive nerf, because a mob could activate it... I find this extremely difficult to believe.

When was the last time a mob activated purify on you? Should we also take the time to appreciate that in your 1 v 1 with Bait, not a single mob was found? Arcane defense has a cooldown too, and could **** you over if it was activated by a mob. But you use it anyway and I don't see it getting abused. Defense charms have a cooldown, and a mob could tick it too. But you use it anyway and I don't see it getting abused.

Besides, who said you have to fight when purify procs? You have skill, don't you? You said it yourself, purify is meant for an escape. If it procs and you feel that you need purify to be on cooldown all the time, then go ahead and kite. You said that it is an occasional escape. A cooldown fits that description perfectly. Procing several times in a row is not an occasional escape - its a sin's tidal that purifies and gives you a speed boost all at the sametime. And if they DO take advantage of a "mis-proc" so to speak, then thats good planning on their part. +1 skill points to them.

Heres a better proposal for you. Purify proc with a cooldown that can proc on demand. Now that fits everything you said. Given everything you have told me thus far, I feel that this fits all of your criteria completely. If you demand that purify can constantly proc back to back, then I feel that there is a bit of bias in there.



I don't know what this video is supposed to show. That a squad of unbuffed DDs with 1 veno, 1 veno and 1 barb can't beat a fully buffed squad with 4 bms? The fact that you guys survive better than BMs which are meant to be super tanky (12:48) and the fact that you guys survive at all under this situation is a perfectly good indication that its not balanced. 4 CC classes but you guys manage to survive for so long? What, are BMs completely useless now? Look at how fast Bait drops compared to you guys. Look at Azura tank (5:10 and 6:38) lol. Too bad no one supported his purges. Look at purify bailing both of you guys out from focus DD (4:42, 8:22, 9:06).

Is there a doubt as to why getting out of focus DD by 4 CC class is op, and why a support class with that same ability would be even worse?




I'm not underestimating how good marrow is against a wizard at all. I know very well that BMs and Wizards may be the only two class that can tank an undine spark combo without using their genie or purifying the debuffs. Maybe you're overestimating how good a BM's damage is. I highly doubt that a bm can kill a full josd wizard with full +12 end game gears without some equally insane combo, even without purify proc. The maximum damage a pure strength (which obviously no bm ever goes pure strength if they want to hit sins and archers) bm can do is 7.4k on you without any debuffs. Thats a zerk crit and still not even a charm bypass, and considering how low a bm's crit rate is, its going to be anywhere between 8% to 6%. All of their combos (HF, Cyclone) are obvious so its easy to avoid. What does this mean? It means that 92% of the time, they're going to tickle you. They can't charm bypass you, so they must get you to below 50% Hp THEN zerk crit. Even lower chance. Ontop of that, dex built bms will hit alot less. So an even lower chance.

I don't know if the bm in the video you linked was third cast or not, but most of his hits on you was in the 1k range.






If a class is underpowered to begin with, and then you boost the opponent, do you not agree that it makes that class even more underpowered? Whether or not Purify proc is the original reason, it most definitely is a reason. I am glad that you agree that purify is not needed to 1 v 1 every class. I got a different impression from your original post. You agree that in many cases, it is neutral. If that is the case, then there should be nothing wrong with a proposed modification? If in many cases, it doesn't matter whether purify procs or not, then I see no reason why a modification would nerf the proc so much as to give you a massive disadvantage.

And not going to talk about 1 v 1 clerics since thats going to be like 1 v 1 with sins all over again.




You and Azura already survived extremely well without any support and barely buffed. If you guys had more support, I think the implication is pretty clear.

Just because both sides have access to the same thing, does not mean that by default it is not OP. If GMs were to declare that from now on, all sins will get GM cape and GM swords, would you claim that sins are not op in mass pk because both sides will have sins?

I hate doing this as it adds nothign constructive to this discussion.. but +1... no scratch that +∞.

This proc effects bms the most, there might be ways to still lock casters down, but as I pointed out earlier its a maxium of a possible 11 seconds if there is 1 bm on the 'caster,' IF someone is helping and they HAPPEN to make this proc.. process... that just spells bad news for the bm, it isn't all that easy getting to casters in the first place for bms, even in marrow we still get hammered by archers/seekers with their ranged melee. Not to mention the fact I mentioned already in this thread, we use the chi to lock you down, someone comes up and procs purify, we have little to no chi to re-lock you down. (I realize there is the sleep skills that are unaffected by this proc to an extent, but neither have a real long way to lock you all down, not to mention you all can so still attack with it on you.) I also realize there are ways to counter the proc as adroit/others have pointed out, but in that each absolutely have their weakness, purify proc can keep just rolling on, if the caster can survive the 'counters,' or even wait for the right moments to skate away from the few attacks that they take from the bm/others. Another thing that I do realize is that other classes are affected by this proc as well, but every other class can chase down/continue their attacks far easier than bm's. (barbs their built in speed buffs, sins their teleport's/speed buff's, sure bms have a few ways to keep up, but only one doesn't cost ANY chi to be used, and that is cloud sprint, with a 60 second cooldown. (if you can't see why a caster is less effected by this proc then a bm, then you obviously haven't been on a bm. They may have 60%ish more health than most casters, but they still get pwnt far faster than casters do. (sure they may die when they are gotten close too, but in all likely hood if their attack is far greater than the defenses/hp of the bm.. the bm will absolutely be a non factor in nearly every single fight(s).)

EDIT:Again I DO realize that bms in endgame gears are badass, but early end game they are nothing more then a small fly/minor nuisance, unless they happen to have an ig on... and well as I am sure you all know its impossible to have one up the whole time.. that would indeed be way too ridiculous. What really irks me is the fact that the same gear/amount of preparation allows my barb, and seeker to survive a hell of a lot better, and I feel like I am far more useful on them in pvp.

Veno's may be the weakest caster classes, but they still have plenty of ways to really layeth the smackdown on others. (depending on who they target)

Archers may also need a slight boost, but they still do hurt like a truck a lot of the time.

While it's true I haven't played every class in... near end game gear, but its impossible not to see that they have some quite clear advantages that a bm does NOT. (I do however have some experience on each class, the veno the least. It's been stuck at lvl 62 for quite some time. I realize this far from makes me an expert on each class, but still the flaws of the bm are the most clear to me since I have played one. Albeit it really truly is a bad *** class in pve. Giving it is a jack of all trade there are classes that far outshine what a bm does, but when in pvp, and a proc repeatedly damn near takes away what a bm does best... and arguably the only thing it can do... there is an imbalance there... at least imho there is.)

EDIT 2: I realize the post I quoted may be a 'explanation' of how the proc works, but still, the truth of the matter is that this proc has far more chances or being potentially overpowered in more then one scenario, then any other proc in game, especially when you add in the extra hard hits thanks to the gear differences.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Heres a better proposal for you. Purify proc with a cooldown that can proc on demand. Now that fits everything you said. Given everything you have told me thus far, I feel that this fits all of your criteria completely. If you demand that purify can constantly proc back to back, then I feel that there is a bit of bias in there.

on demand procs that have cool-downs are called "skills"

do you even mmo?

Eoria - Harshlands

Wait wtf. Jack of all trades class is mystic, not BMs, lol.

Really, nearly every BM post in this thread reads like they all have a giant inferiority complex.

Azura - Lost City

eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

wait Wtf. Jack Of All Trades Class Is Mystic, Not Bms, Lol.

really, Nearly Every Bm Post In This Thread Reads Like They All Have A Giant Inferiority Complex.

^ this

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Bms were the first 'true' jack of all trades. (they have ranged skills, but they are really kind of are joke compared to other things.)

If you played a bm in near end game scenario's, I think you would see how underpowered bms are... again I realize they are far from underpowered end game, but still they have quite a few weaknesses, with just 1 arguable 'strength' and that is stunlocking, but that can be ridiculously hard to do these days. (reread what adroit said a few pages back, without GOF proc, he could tank a bms damage + stunlock practically all day... I am of course paraphrasing.)

EDIT: Mystic's while they truly are a badass class, they still can't tank like a bm does (in pve) and the only time casters become able to 'pull' like a bm/barb is when they have nearish end game gear/ prepared really well. Bm's on the other hand can do it, with rather decent gear/the right knowledge. The bm class are the true jack of all trade.


Anyways enough about bms this is about the purify proc.

There are a number of scenarios that continue to pop up in mass pvp, where the proc activates, and leaves those 'skilled' people in the dust. Gof/purge proc doesn't have numerous scenarios where it's constantly proc/allowing them to kill + survive for an absurd amount of time, especially if their opponents are skilled/exceptionally well geared. EDIT: (casters may even die when they are facing equally geared opponents, but we can't just 'focus' on this and claim that something doesn't create an imbalance)

EDIT: Gah I really need to get away from this stupid thread. xD

Eoria - Harshlands

The thing is though that BMs are pretty ****ing balanced now with the new Morai skills + skill updates + r9rr. Like, I really don't know what the hell else you guys would want.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

The thing is though that BMs are pretty ****ing balanced now with the new Morai skills + skill updates + r9rr. Like, I really don't know what the hell else you guys would want.

4 new control skills that are less effective than our old set (still nice) with one high CD damage skill; unneeded in mele matchups (useful as hell vs archers)

They would be pretty strong if they actually let the BM main lock be not 100% stun centric or you know...every class we really want to use em on didnt have purify proc
As to what BM's would want...

Um, not purify

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Now yes, but after the tideborn expansion came out it was a horrible time to be a veno. It was like this:

PvP: Veno's damage was too low while other's where higher. Specially sins and psys after the tideborn expansion.

Not really, the only thing veno's had a problem with then was sins, and uuuh everyone had a problem with sins

TW/mass pvp: Venos were just a debuff tool. Reroll to sage so you are actually worthy....

BM's are just a stun/debuff tool we're cool with that

PvE: There was so much craze with aps and sins that it was impossible to get a squad to farm in nirvana. Then the devs made HH harder, so it became impossible to farm some instances of HH. Venos had to farm low level HH for just a few coins.

The average vana squad not run by a total idiot was 5 high DD's+1veno your the only caster class that was actively sought in vana, the TT buff did hurt however venos could still farm effectively, and the buff honestly hurt lowbie squads who just wanted to farm mats more. In terms of "just a few coins" at the time TT mats were at an all time high, 200k evil min horn, 350-400k sacred mothers orb, 300-350k sorceresses hands. 1-10 mill a run is not "a few coins"

Solo ability: What solo ability? The ability to solo grind from 1-100 (so boring...). Ok I'll give you that much.

Ability to solo frost so you can level faster? Although technically possible, it was inefficient compared to what sins, bms, or barbs could do.

Squad frost was kinda fast enough, nobody cared about 105 other than sins anyway

Ability to solo farm? read above

herc was 80 mill then, aps set+ refines was 800+ mill to have higher solo capabilities than the same herc, plus venos could actually out DPS bm's with a claw build if they were just crazy for it.

So yeah, after psys/sins appeared. All those venos who used to pk disappeared because psys and sins were better for farming or pk. And, not only the tideborn were better at that time, every class could do anything that was special about venos.

Reliable purge class, amp, highest move speed in game, ranged stunlock, 4 nat immune or tank skills, nat antistun, I can go on, there were quite a few veno PVPers on sanc and yes they could kill the insanely highly refined barbs/bm's we had then without too many issues.

Debuff: archer can do it, and better 20% amp and 20% hp debuff > veno amps
Lure in instances: anyone can do it with a genie Who cares
Solo stuff: sins could do it much better Addressed above

I think venos didn't even complain about this. Everyone accepted it (like me) or rerolled. And if they did complain, I didn't have time to qq in forums, cause I wanted to keep going without care to the difficulty.

Oh they complained constantly that their tt monopoly was broken, but again nothing outside of that actually changed, however veno was the popular farmign alt due to the insane cheapness of hercs vs the money made off one and when those people saw a faster solo farmer they swapped. Personaly I didnt see one main class veno swap or quit due to TB.

Actually most BM's are mentally disabled puppies mashing their balls into doorknobs, I call them on it too.

Most people are stupid

In all of the QQ above at no point did a relevant aspect of your class get nerfed in any way (not being able to nix bleed auto win on almost any robe class isnt really a nerf lol)

Having the core aspect of your class (crowd control/Debuffs) made borderline useless along with your DPS options is a reason to be just a bit irked though.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

4 new control skills that are less effective than our old set (still nice) with one high CD damage skill; unneeded in mele matchups (useful as hell vs archers)

They would be pretty strong if they actually let the BM main lock be not 100% stun centric or you know...every class we really want to use em on didnt have purify proc
As to what BM's would want...

Um, not purify

^ This. **** this time will be for real... hate doing it since it adds nothing constructive, but meh ef it.

Maybe not...

The skills really aren't as 'awesome' as you all make them sound, while they are indeed a very nice add on to the bm skills, they don't keep bms in the running for a kill credit. (unless again they have the gear/skill to do so... but with purify proc that has become quite difficult... in this case it really is gear superior to skill, which it SHOULDN'T be... NOT always. In some cases yes that is how it should be, but not in all cases... which I guess it isn't in all cases, but still, the purify proc pretty much ruins the only thing that makes a bm even slightly special. (granted it still has to proc, but still... it ruins the only thing a bm can do... for the most part.)

Onatop - Lost City

Keep purify get rid of genie spark!!!b:pleased

Azura - Lost City

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Now yes, but after the tideborn expansion came out it was a horrible time to be a veno. It was like this:

PvP: Veno's damage was too low while other's where higher. Specially sins and psys after the tideborn expansion.

TW/mass pvp: Venos were just a debuff tool. Reroll to sage so you are actually worthy....

PvE: There was so much craze with aps and sins that it was impossible to get a squad to farm in nirvana. Then the devs made HH harder, so it became impossible to farm some instances of HH. Venos had to farm low level HH for just a few coins.

Solo ability: What solo ability? The ability to solo grind from 1-100 (so boring...). Ok I'll give you that much.

Ability to solo frost so you can level faster? Although technically possible, it was inefficient compared to what sins, bms, or barbs could do.

Ability to solo farm? read above

So yeah, after psys/sins appeared. All those venos who used to pk disappeared because psys and sins were better for farming or pk. And, not only the tideborn were better at that time, every class could do anything that was special about venos.

Debuff: archer can do it, and better
Lure in instances: anyone can do it with a genie
Solo stuff: sins could do it much better

I think venos didn't even complain about this. Everyone accepted it (like me) or rerolled. And if they did complain, I didn't have time to qq in forums, cause I wanted to keep going without care to the difficulty.

Don't try to discuss this with me because I'm talking about something that happaned not something that is happening.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Don't try to discuss this with me because I'm talking about something that happaned not something that is happening.

Um...so was I

Sorry but the person that I duoed pve and played with most often in pvp with for years was a veno and uh, that whole post is a load of total bullcrap.

Really foul smelling tear soaked bullcrap with stupid sprinkled all over it.

Adroit - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um...so was I

Sorry but the person that I duoed pve and played with most often in pvp with for years was a veno and uh, that whole post is a load of total bullcrap.

Really foul smelling tear soaked bullcrap with stupid sprinkled all over it.

I can't help but wonder if this hostility comes from being a +12 g13 aps bm in 2013.. b:chuckle

Quilue - Sanctuary

After TB expansion it was horrible to be any class except sin or psy! jeez.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I can't help but wonder if this hostility comes from being a +12 g13 aps bm in 2013.. b:chuckle

Quit the game for over 2 years, came back a few months ago then got dragged onto another game by a friend for a bit + a few other things. Come back again, find out I still have a top tier farming set, not bothered.

So, since active pvp is off my plate for at least a year... I'm back to doing what I did for quite a long time. Accurately theorycrafting endgame scenarios then applying maths to em.

"well josh how do you know its accurate here?" Because your sniping gear comments and making statements with no backing whatsoever instead of trying to actually prove or disprove... well anything.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Now yes, but after the tideborn expansion came out it was a horrible time to be a veno. It was like this:

PvP: Veno's damage was too low while other's where higher. Specially sins and psys after the tideborn expansion.

loooooooooooooooooool.


TW/mass pvp: Venos were just a debuff tool. Reroll to sage so you are actually worthy....

BMs were just a debuff tool. Reroll Sage so you were actually worthy...

PvE: There was so much craze with aps and sins that it was impossible to get a squad to farm in nirvana. Then the devs made HH harder, so it became impossible to farm some instances of HH. Venos had to farm low level HH for just a few coins.

Solo ability: What solo ability? The ability to solo grind from 1-100 (so boring...). Ok I'll give you that much.

Ability to solo frost so you can level faster? Although technically possible, it was inefficient compared to what sins, bms, or barbs could do.

Ability to solo farm? read above

Well gee wiz, mister! I'm so gosh golly darn sorry my 400+ million in gear wrecks your 80m herc in terms of solo power!

So yeah, after psys/sins appeared. All those venos who used to pk disappeared because psys and sins were better for farming or pk. And, not only the tideborn were better at that time, every class could do anything that was special about venos.

Um. No they didn't? The people that truly enjoyed their classes, Venomancers included, stayed. Every class took a loss but it's inaccurate to say that everyone from a certain class jumped ship. I'm fairly certain we still have people of all classes pking so what you said is automatically wrong.

Debuff: archer can do it, and better Ha nope. Amp > BV, stacks with Hf and doesn't afraid of anything.
Lure in instances: anyone can do it with a genie Who cares?
Solo stuff: sins could do it much better Someone doesn't realize how much money that actually takes it would seem. Or rather, did take. Now it's much cheaper.

I think venos didn't even complain about this. Everyone accepted it (like me) or rerolled. And if they did complain, I didn't have time to qq in forums, cause I wanted to keep going without care to the difficulty

looooooooooooooooooooool

When "end game" people are this blatantly stupid, it makes me question why we should listen to them.

Crazybladema - Harshlands

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

When "end game" people are this blatantly stupid, it makes me question why we should listen to them.

Pretty much, I wouldn't say "stupid". Most people who have max endgame are hyper babies who also cash shop their toons to the extreme. So they only really understand how to mash buttons/skills and not the fine tuned aspects of the game. In fact most of the community suffers from this now adays.

In fact the understanding of the game can be so flawed because of power leveling, many of these hyper babies equate gear to game knowledge. Though not all are this way. Nevertheless, there are many shallow minded players that have a hard time accepting that someone can have a better understanding of the game. Especially those who are not in godmode gears.

In regards to modifying/removing purify though.

The only time any of us are going to know for sure if its going to be done is the next expansion or if "Val aka HEY YOU" announces it. Which is what I am waiting for and hoping pwe does something this time.

They did nerf aps a bit on one of the expansions. So, there very well may be a chance Purify will get Nerfed on an expansion.

Which is why I don't see why anyone needs to debate this topic anymore. Because chances are in a month or so we will see if "purify" gets nerfed. f:meh

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Crazybladema - Harshlands wrote: »

Pretty much, I wouldn't say "stupid". Most people who have max endgame are hyper babies who also cash shop their toons to the extreme. So they only really understand how to mash buttons/skills and not the fine tuned aspects of the game. In fact most of the community suffers from this now adays.

In fact the understanding of the game can be so flawed because of power leveling, many of these hyper babies equate gear to game knowledge. Though not all are this way. Nevertheless, there are many shallow minded players that have a hard time accepting that someone can have a better understanding of the game. Especially those who are not in godmode gears.

In regards to modifying/removing purify though.

The only time any of us are going to know for sure if its going to be done is the next expansion or if "Val aka HEY YOU" announces it. Which is what I am waiting for and hoping pwe does something this time.

They did nerf aps a bit on one of the expansions. So, there very well may be a chance Purify will get Nerfed on an expansion.

Which is why I don't see why anyone needs to debate this topic anymore. Because chances are in a month or so we will see if "purify" gets nerfed. f:meh

No they're just stupid

and pwi rately nerfs anything

more likely in about a year there will be a new mele proc "god of purify" and a "spirit black purification" on bows that activate like 50% of the time and have the norm effect + puri

they will cost 3x the current r999 cost and require the full set to work

Azura - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

When "end game" people are this blatantly stupid, it makes me question why we should listen to them.

Didnt you undestand that I was talking about the time right after the tideborn expansion?

Sigh, another stupid bm...

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Didnt you undestand that I was talking about the time right after the tideborn expansion?

Sigh, another stupid bm...

You aren't the only one that was around during that time, which is the reason we can call you on your stupidity. There were plenty of Venomancers roaming around pking, and plenty of them were still able to use the QQchicken to snag wins because that was before people were getting that great of gear.

Sigh, another idiot that thinks they have any clue what they're talking about. C'mon, what all was wrong with my post? Tell me, please, I'd love to know the opinion of the wise Azura. I'm going to let you know that what I just said was sarcasm, because I doubt you'd be able to realize that on your own.

Azura - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You aren't the only one that was around during that time, which is the reason we can call you on your stupidity. There were plenty of Venomancers roaming around pking, and plenty of them were still able to use the QQchicken to snag wins because that was before people were getting that great of gear.

Sigh, another idiot that thinks they have any clue what they're talking about. C'mon, what all was wrong with my post? Tell me, please, I'd love to know the opinion of the wise Azura. I'm going to let you know that what I just said was sarcasm, because I doubt you'd be able to realize that on your own.

Nv gear at that time was good enough to make bleed just a small nuisance. And in Lost City, the most important venos that pvp'ed/farmed rerolled to fishy classes or to others.

Ofc for you even at this time venos were still a big threat to you cause you probably still had noob gear, just like now.

inb4 you were dying to bleed from nixes.

Quilue - Sanctuary

So you're saying when people stopped ticking to death from a pet skill, the class became not worth playing, or even stopped being a threat?

By Pangu! Every class must have been worthless!

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Nv gear at that time was good enough to make bleed just a small nuisance. And in Lost City, the most important venos that pvp'ed/farmed rerolled to fishy classes or to others.

Ofc for you even at this time venos were still a big threat to you cause you probably still had noob gear, just like now.

inb4 you were dying to bleed from nixes.

Oh no, your nix didn't let you auto-win most robes Let me give you all of my sympathy.

My Cleric only ever had TT90 at the height his in game career, for lack of a better term. There wasn't really a time where a nix QQbleedautowon me, because I learned how to combat them as many other casters did. Back then skill mattered a lot, unlike now where gear difference > skill in a lot of cases. That's why people get so arrogant and think they're good in a lot of cases. Can't say any of my BMs ever died to a nix bleed though.

Oh well, I'm not sure why I'm bothering with an idiot like you. I must be extremely bored. No, wait, that's exactly it. I'm very bored. Do the alalalalalalala.

The best part of this is a you're complaining about how a Veno was/is near useless when this thread is full of BMs. You know. The class that's kinda sorta the most shafted in the game.

Adroit - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

... BMs. You know. The class that's kinda sorta the most shafted in the game.

If by kinda sorta you mean not at all, then I agree with you.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

If by kinda sorta you mean not at all, then I agree with you.

Tell me, why doth thou disagree?

Adroit - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Tell me, why doth thou disagree?

End game bms are ridiculously tanky, have great CC + disables, have the ability to purge without eruption fist (eruption fist is prohibitively expensive), have awesome debuffs/amps, have a useful party buff, are still wanted for just about every pve instance in game.. what more do you want? /inb4 u want to easily kill your opponents as well. BMs are an excellent support class assuming they are geared up and played by a competent player.. which is why it isn't surprising that you complain about BMs so much. Have you found a single end game player (caster or otherwise) that agrees with you yet?

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

End game bms are ridiculously tanky,
True

have great CC + disables,
Purify and disables are almost 100% countered by the average geni on the same CD

have the ability to purge without eruption fist (eruption fist is prohibitively expensive)
Purge poles are a desperation only wep for really obvious reasons

, have awesome debuffs/amps
Purify

, have a useful party buff,
true

are still wanted for just about every pve instance in game..
True

what more do you want? /inb4 u want to easily kill your opponents as well.
We would like a 50/50 shot at it yes

BMs are an excellent support class assuming they are geared up and played by a competent player..
Without the ability to really kill opponents reliably and requiring 5-9 other competent well geared players in squad

which is why it isn't surprising that you complain about BMs so much.
Try pvping on one

Have you found a single end game player (caster or otherwise) that agrees with you yet?
have you found one that agrees with you and isnt a complete moron who needs to write in crayon lest they hurt themselves?

My anecdotal evidence is louder than your anecdotal evidence, Im arguing like an endgame player now right?

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

End game bms are ridiculously tanky, have great CC + disables, have the ability to purge without eruption fist (eruption fist is prohibitively expensive), have awesome debuffs/amps, have a useful party buff, are still wanted for just about every pve instance in game.. what more do you want? /inb4 u want to easily kill your opponents as well. BMs are an excellent support class assuming they are geared up and played by a competent player.. which is why it isn't surprising that you complain about BMs so much. Have you found a single end game player (caster or otherwise) that agrees with you yet?

Know who else is tanky and does it better? Barbs and Seekers
Know who else can purge and does it better? Archers and Barbs.
Know who else has great CC? Psychics and Assassins. Assassins are better at locking 1v1.

Who know else has awesome debuffs and amps? Venos, none of which are as costly.
Know who else has useful party buffs and are wanted for instances? Clerics, Barbs, Assassins.

I'm aware BMs are support, but for what they do other classes have the ability to do as well. Tanking? Barbs have higher HP and Pdef in Tiger Form, plus multiple shields. Seekers have passive 30+ Defense levels which is better than Marrow in a lot of cases.

Venomancers have a reliable purge with only a 30 second cooldown. Archers and Barbs can do it from long range. BMs? We've got to get right in the target's face and waste chi locking them down while trying to land a purge.

Psychics have a long range RotP that does damage, granted it requires a spark but it's still a long range damage causing stun. Plus they have a long range AoE Freeze. Plus the passive ability to seal targets.

A Blademaster only has two truly good debuffs, Heaven's Flame and Glacial Spike. Both require 2 sparks. Once those are used chi becomes low and the BM loses out on a lot of options unless they have Cloud Eruption or a chi pot ready, and even then they're losing out on other options such as IG/Dew for defensive options or the use of a genie for defense/offense for a while. For other classes to debuff a target, though not quite as well, it is far cheaper. It's just not as game changing in group PvP as a BM's two spark debuffs. Note that I say debuffs, not stuns.

Honestly the whole PvE thing isn't even relevant. The instance people are running will determine what classes are needed, and usually the setup is a tank, healer, and DDs, changing as the team sees fit. BMs aren't the only class that can get into squads, in a lot of cases any class can so long as the team has a need for it. Missing a DD? Grab an Archer. Missing a healer? Cleric or Mystic. Not much of an argument.


I'm not sure why you even bring up the ability to purge, as that's not something only Blademasters have access too. It's a weapon proc, meaning other classes that can use poleblades have the ability to use it.

Being shafted doesn't mean that they can't be good support, it means that for their role they got shafted because while they're meant for support more than anything, other classes can do some of the things they do as well if not better while being able to cause significant damage. A BM's only real impact on the battlefield is stuns and HF/Glacial. Our AoEs aren't the strongest out there, they contribute but they aren't causing kills like a Seeker's. What do BMs have other than support? Not a whole lot. Mediocre damage compared to most other classes, a lot of which can support decently well on their own. It's not a substitute for BMs, but they can definitely manage to hold their own in the crowd control department.

So yeah. We're shafted. We're quite tanky and supportive, but nontheless we're like your mom 'cause we got the shaft pretty hard.

Hope that comment doesn't get my post deleted, I'm not re-typing that.

Slewdem - Dreamweaver

which is why it isn't surprising that you complain about BMs so much.
Try pvping on one

Alot of these classes already know why they don't pvp with a BM.. all want support class for pvp but none of them want to play one:laugh

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Slewdem - Dreamweaver wrote: »

which is why it isn't surprising that you complain about BMs so much.
Try pvping on one

Alot of these classes already know why they don't pvp with a BM.. all want support class for pvp but none of them want to play one:laugh

No no, see in this thread the only class that got shafted was Venos. They have the hardest life of everyone. Blademasters are unbeatable godmode monstrosities that wreck everything in their path.

Again, letting certain people know that's sarcasm since I doubt they would be able to tell.