if PWCN nerfed APS... does PWI have to follow???

123468

Comments

  • Iulius - Heavens Tear
    Iulius - Heavens Tear Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    this is time for you to accept they give a **** about you and they do what they whant and you keep spending real money into this even that you troll/QQ each day for what ever they change
  • DaKillanator - Raging Tide
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide Posts: 2,965 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Summer_Blush - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    ^ This.

    ^This
    People just need to accept Summer's acceptance of what is now acceptable in this game, even if there are some accepted exceptions
  • Bollocks - Raging Tide
    Bollocks - Raging Tide Posts: 153 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    If they nerf it there, they will do it here. Just look at all the other changes they made. They were made cause of the situation on PWCN, had nothing to do with PWI but were still implanted here.
    Aasimar:
    "Bollocks - a guy that will always point out to some1s nonsense and generally indicate contempt for a certain task, subject or opinion. A balancing force and more often then not, a voice of reason around thees parts. There is also paradox in that being his cleric name, as he likes to put it "useless char", while he is one of the best clerics on the server in PvP and PvE imo."
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Nerf APS and make it fun to play mage classes again?

    Nerf APS and make it less fun to play something you spent a bajillion coins on, and possibly a great deal of real cash? I dunno...

    As for if PW CN does something, PWI HAS to follow... Well, look at DQ changes. They changed DQ vendor prices, and PWI did the same, even though "It wasn't fair to PWI players", and so they invented DQ Rewards.

    So to some extent, yes, they do. Probably PW CN tells PWI what they can and cannot change, and the extent of what they can change.

    Part of me would be happy with an APS nerf. It's broken. But just bumping down the maximum obtainable APS isn't really a fix, it screws everyone who worked REALLY hard to get that APS, and gives nothing to anyone else.

    Make mage classes more powerful, like, -channeling, maybe? We've been asking for it for a long time. Make it more effective, or effect skill cooldown time as well.

    This isn't something where you can change a number and fix it... Just bumping 5.0 down to 4.0 or 2.5 won't fix it, because it's still broken, by the way the system is designed. You have to design around the flaw, or design it out, not slap a bandaid on it and be happy with it.

    bajillion coins and a great deal of cash? Are you kidding me? I raised a 4 aps soon to be 5 aps BM for farm with half the gear I had on my wiz a year ago. I have a +7 deicide now, nothing amazing, but good enough to produce rank8 for my wiz and farm the rest of the gear for 5 aps.
    So cut the bullcrap about how much it costs to have a farming aps char pls, this is just a way to scare other ppl off so there's less competition.
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Traz - Dreamweaver
    Traz - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    3.33 sins which is actually 5 aps sins sparked.
    I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but just 3.33 aps without spark won't take aggro off a r8 wizard even. R9? roflmao, at least 50% damage lvl, are you joking? Your fked up understanding of aps and dmg and passing it on is what creates a lot of misinformed nubs in this game.
    non rank9 3.33 sparked sin with same refines as wizard I don't think it will outdamage it. It's kinda' hard to make a comparison since it's hard to find two equally geared chars, but i guess the damage difference won't be big, not even close to a factor of 2 or 3.b:chuckle that's just plain stupid

    if APS is nerfed to 3.33 when I spark i'll be :O :O 3.33.....and you or any other wizard cannot will not and shall not be taking any aggro or out DDing me. I'm sorry you have a hard time reading what people say. b:bye
    BladedZero - Sanctuary
    "Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."

    -And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    wanna try it? really, I'm ready to.
    I don't know what wizards you're playing with usually, but a 3.33 barb or BM will hardly take aggro off a Lunar wiz. R8 and R9, you make me lol.

    And yeah, I have a R8 wiz and a +7 deicide 4 aps (soon 5 aps) BM, I have a pretty good feeling how much dmg both do.

    I don't know what you're smoking, but I want two.
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    bajillion coins and a great deal of cash? Are you kidding me? I raised a 4 aps soon to be 5 aps BM for farm with half the gear I had on my wiz a year ago. I have a +7 deicide now, nothing amazing, but good enough to produce rank8 for my wiz and farm the rest of the gear for 5 aps.
    So cut the bullcrap about how much it costs to have a farming aps char pls, this is just a way to scare other ppl off so there's less competition.

    Might want to be more specific on when this R8 was farmed.

    Congratulations. You got +7 Deicides, which probably costs around 70m+ anyway, raised up a 4APS BM, which probably costs at least 4 pieces of TT99 and a Lunar Wing Trophy (what is that about 120m+?), and farmed 72m R8. Wooohoooo!
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    yup.
    The diff is now I have 1 4 aps fully geared BM and I have all the gear on my wiz back, well, even better.
    Fair trade. Plus, the only thing limiting my coin making now is the time I have ingame.
    I can make cash with aps and finance wiz/seeker or whatever else comes along.
    If I wouldn't have done that, I would have had a slightly better gear wiz...and nothing else.

    And the point was to combat the "gazilion coin" concept that has been ... promoted?... for so long.
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Traz - Dreamweaver
    Traz - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    wanna try it? really, I'm ready to.
    I don't know what wizards you're playing with usually, but a 3.33 barb or BM will hardly take aggro off a Lunar wiz. R8 and R9, you make me lol.

    And yeah, I have a R8 wiz and a +7 deicide 4 aps (soon 5 aps) BM, I have a pretty good feeling how much dmg both do.

    I don't know what you're smoking, but I want two.

    My sin (in a standard squad) does (if it was 3.33 sparked) 45k standard damage and on HF 175k a second, good luck.
    BladedZero - Sanctuary
    "Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."

    -And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    so you're saying you do an average of 15k/hit on a boss with no debuffs?
    +12 nirvana daggers maybe? cause I can't see what else could have that dmg and I'm pretty sure you're actually BS-ing for that 175k/sec over HF. That might be the output dmg of a good aps squad, lol.
    Compare with +12 rank8 then. Think about the fact that as wiz I can spark 3 times in a 1 minute span and that's quite a dmg output.
    I'm sure you'll be amazed.
    Hard to compare I know, since not a lot of wizards/psy have +12. Well, a lot less than aps classes anyway.

    Depends a lot on what PWI does to nerf aps. If they change the way aps is stacking that can have impact, meaning you won't be able to get 3.33 with gears, you will hit only a max of 2.8...or less, however they think of doing it.
    If they just cap the aps at 3.33...well...then not much will change. Sins will still be able to permaspark and so will BMs with chi skill on genie.

    As I said before, aps power in PvE comes from permaspark. Take that away and -int class dynamic will change dramatically.
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    I can believe 175k/s over HF. This is probably raw damage dealt, not damage actually received by the boss (factoring in 1/4 reduction for being lvl ?).
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    well, do we talk about what dmg we think we do (raw dmg dealt before reduction) or the damage that pops up in numbers above the boss (real dmg dealt) ? Because how I understood was that during that 6 sec of HF he can output 175k x 6 = 1.05 mil worth of dmg.
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    well, do we talk about what dmg we think we do (raw dmg dealt before reduction) or the damage that pops up in numbers above the boss (real dmg dealt) ? Because how I understood was that during that 6 sec of HF he can output 175k x 6 = 1.05 mil worth of dmg.

    b:surrender

    You're completely incapable of understanding anyone's point, ever.

    Did you not have any friends as a child?

    If they cut max APS to 2.5 or 2.0, would you be happy? <--My initial point.

    "OMG YOAR A CASHSHOPPER AND GET NOTHING OUT OF HIGH APS!" <-- What you took my initial point as??? Am I even close?

    You know what, I'm so tired, I don't really care, actually.

    I think APS should be limited to the maximum an archer can get with a crossbow.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    are you posting monologues on forums now?
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    are you posting monologues on forums now?

    I read that as "Blah blah blah".
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Martiin - Archosaur
    Martiin - Archosaur Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    so you're saying you do an average of 15k/hit on a boss with no debuffs?
    +12 nirvana daggers maybe? cause I can't see what else could have that dmg and I'm pretty sure you're actually BS-ing for that 175k/sec over HF. That might be the output dmg of a good aps squad, lol.

    4.2m hp nirvana boss dead in 20 seconds, HF + amp + (5)5aps. (after nurf)

    You do the math.

    I can believe 175k/sec over HF with crit's taken into account. Considering we are talking about a sin..then yea its possible.
    (anonymous) "If pwi brings out rank sale again, I will def increase my spending limit." Marketing, learn it, master it, and after that stop complaining about it.
  • Maragon - Dreamweaver
    Maragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 645 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Martiin - Archosaur wrote: »
    4.2m hp nirvana boss dead in 20 seconds, HF + amp + (5)5aps. (after nurf)

    You do the math.

    I can believe 175k/sec over HF with crit's taken into account. Considering we are talking about a sin..then yea its possible.

    well here's some math. http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=032dba1c4eaa94ef this is with a R8 sin using TT99 dagger +5 2 immac if you dont click the link

    this toon (taking emblem and crits into account and adding 2% crit and a little damage because pwcalc didnt have demon dagger devo as an option) has raw damage 16605 before boss defenses per hit which is over 55k dps at 3.33.

    that plus HF plus extreme poison plus Mire and yea you are getting pretty close. I even with non maxed skills I have seen my damage nearly quadrupled from debuffs. my fist bm in the mid 80s on a moderately debuffed [?] boss in FC has hit 2000 - 2500 non sparked and I dont have insane gear.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Traz - Dreamweaver
    Traz - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I can believe 175k/s over HF. This is probably raw damage dealt, not damage actually received by the boss (factoring in 1/4 reduction for being lvl ?).

    That's not rawr damage. You put me in my squad of 4 and I've hit for 60k crits (72k was max but that's every debuff ever) in 3-Xs. Full out my seconds are over 250k in those instances of most debuffs on....that's just the broken damage of an almost maxed sin. I could easily pull a 20k/20k/8k second with just my subsea, wolf emblem, frenzy, and tangling mire (3.0 mind you not another .33 of a hit on top of that). Now you go and factor in HF, another bm glacial, cleric debuffs, devour, etc an you got your self a very scary second roughly around 175k (at 3.33 sparked if my sin was nerfed from 5.0).

    EDIT: I'm not even +12 yet just +10 and I don't have my helm for 5 more atk lvls and another 30 dex after helm + level. My atks can easily go from consistant 50ks with full on debuff/buffs to 70k with that upgrade...maybe more. Broken end game sins are broken is the moral of the story.
    BladedZero - Sanctuary
    "Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."

    -And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    now we're talking.
    squad of 4, all debuffs ingame and stuff.
    That's a whole diff story at a whole diff lvl ...
    My sin (in a standard squad) does (if it was 3.33 sparked) 45k standard damage and on HF 175k a second, good luck.

    From your original post I understand you have that output sparked + HF only. To me that "standard" squad didn't mean "all debuffs/buffs ingame"...
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Traz - Dreamweaver
    Traz - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    now we're talking.
    squad of 4, all debuffs ingame and stuff.
    That's a whole diff story at a whole diff lvl ...



    From your original post I understand you have that output sparked + HF only. To me that "standard" squad didn't mean "all debuffs/buffs ingame"...

    Why wouldn't I use my subsea, wolf emblem, frenzy, and tangling if I got a HF......for you to think I wouldn't is stupid. The only other thing to tack to that would be devour and cleric debuff (don't normally have second BM for glacial). My standard is 45k /sec with just MY buffs....make no sense to say my standard without my buffs/debuffs....
    BladedZero - Sanctuary
    "Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."

    -And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute
  • Shintoh - Raging Tide
    Shintoh - Raging Tide Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »
    lingzi?

    1.TROLL b:bye
    2.SOURCE for PWCN APS nerv

    If they do, the barbs might come out of their caves again because they'll actually have some use at endgame... now if they start ordering ppl around because they tank, then kick their sorry butts outta the squad (PK 'em too, if on a PvP Server b:sin) and get a nice barb.

    If the APS Nerf comes, the barbs have a chance to make a better comeback. and yes, I have a barb, too b:victory
    I like big bots, and I cannot lie; spamming Gold you can't deny!

    b:dirty
    ___________________________________________________

    Yeah, I'm the guy who brought a sword to a gunfight....

    ...sad part is that I won. b:victory
  • Traz - Dreamweaver
    Traz - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Shintoh - Raging Tide wrote: »
    If they do, the barbs might come out of their caves again because they'll actually have some use at endgame... now if they start ordering ppl around because they tank, then kick their sorry butts outta the squad (PK 'em too, if on a PvP Server b:sin) and get a nice barb.

    If the APS Nerf comes, the barbs have a chance to make a better comeback. and yes, I have a barb, too b:victory

    Unless ppl get nerfed to 2.5 or less no we wont.
    BladedZero - Sanctuary
    "Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."

    -And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute
  • Nepttys - Lost City
    Nepttys - Lost City Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    b:dirty YAY LETS NERF APS, OF COUSE WE WILL GET MORE FUNN DOING 1 NV RUN IN 1 HOR OR MORE HAVING A CLERIC, A WIZIE, AN AXE BM (NO SINS CAUSE NO APS) A XBOW ARCHER, A BARB WITH POLE OR AXE AND A PHYSIC, ULL STAY INNV FOR ABOUT 1 HOUR AND WHEN U FINIHSH, OMG 3 UNKANIES A LOT OF FLAWLESS SO ABOUT 200K A RUN b:dirty YAY THAT WOULD BE COOL (YEAH STUPID QQS DIE ALL!)b:bye ( I WISH U CAN UNWRAPT UR BAIN AND LET IT THINK FOR SEG)
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    If they do, the barbs might come out of their caves again because they'll actually have some use at endgame... now if they start ordering ppl around because they tank, then kick their sorry butts outta the squad (PK 'em too, if on a PvP Server ) and get a nice barb.

    If the APS Nerf comes, the barbs have a chance to make a better comeback. and yes, I have a barb, too



    Have you tried to hold aggro from a +10 rank 8 bow?

    Even with a nerf on APS barbs wont tank.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."
  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Nepttys - Lost City wrote: »
    b:dirty YAY LETS NERF APS, OF COUSE WE WILL GET MORE FUNN DOING 1 NV RUN IN 1 HOR OR MORE HAVING A CLERIC, A WIZIE, AN AXE BM (NO SINS CAUSE NO APS) A XBOW ARCHER, A BARB WITH POLE OR AXE AND A PHYSIC, ULL STAY INNV FOR ABOUT 1 HOUR AND WHEN U FINIHSH, OMG 3 UNKANIES A LOT OF FLAWLESS SO ABOUT 200K A RUN b:dirty YAY THAT WOULD BE COOL (YEAH STUPID QQS DIE ALL!)b:bye ( I WISH U CAN UNWRAPT UR BAIN AND LET IT THINK FOR SEG)

    take ur own advice.

    hint: uncannies/raptures dont have a fixed value.
    unless u npc them. in that case i'll buy them from u for 2 coins; 100% better price
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    yeah, like keeping 5 aps and the current game mechanics is actually fair. "I wish you can unwrapt ur brain and let it think for seg".
    APS nerf won't help anyone, because of one very important thing: Sins will still outdamage everyone by a factor of 2 and no one will think about getting wizards/non aps archers/psy in a squad anyway.
    What would really help would be an instance like nirvana (or a nirvana mod) where aoe dd's could rule the game. Something with mobs spawns like RB, just instead of having a boss in a nirvana room have 100 mobs spawning ... I dunno, haven't put much thought in it, but yeah, I could handle a swarm of mobs coming at me, no probs. Make them small range mag attk ones, just to ** up even more melee aps classes and there u go, a hell where no aps will be happy to enter and a heaven for arcane aoe DDs.
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    yeah, like keeping 5 aps and the current game mechanics is actually fair. "I wish you can unwrapt ur brain and let it think for seg".
    APS nerf won't help anyone, because of one very important thing: Sins will still outdamage everyone by a factor of 2 and no one will think about getting wizards/non aps archers/psy in a squad anyway.
    What would really help would be an instance like nirvana (or a nirvana mod) where aoe dd's could rule the game. Something with mobs spawns like RB, just instead of having a boss in a nirvana room have 100 mobs spawning ... I dunno, haven't put much thought in it, but yeah, I could handle a swarm of mobs coming at me, no probs. Make them small range mag attk ones, just to ** up even more melee aps classes and there u go, a hell where no aps will be happy to enter and a heaven for arcane aoe DDs.

    *drools*

    i am so solo'ing that xd
  • ElderSig - Dreamweaver
    ElderSig - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    *drools*

    i am so solo'ing that xd

    /inb4omgcastersaresoOPitsnotfairfor5apspeeps
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Nepttys - Lost City
    Nepttys - Lost City Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    take ur own advice.

    hint: uncannies/raptures dont have a fixed value.
    unless u npc them. in that case i'll buy them from u for 2 coins; 100% better price

    1. ure stupid and u didnt understand my sarcasm ( as i told before go and unwrap ur brain and let it think for a seg)
    2. the price was an aproximate value and divided on a squad of 6, in my server uncanies are about 470k (when ure selling to a cat shop) (470k X 3= 1410k /6=235k)
    3. squad like the one ive stated would last for about 1 hour in NV.
    4. raptures/uncanies dont have a fixed aount x run, its just a drop rate so u can have less than 3 unkies + a lot of flawles ****
    5. omg im losing time to a fail sin? nvm ive said nothing b:shocked

    b:chuckle
  • ElderSig - Dreamweaver
    ElderSig - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Nepttys - Lost City wrote: »
    1. ure stupid and u didnt understand my sarcasm ( as i told before go and unwrap ur brain and let it think for a seg)
    2. the price was an aproximate value and divided on a squad of 6, in my server uncanies are about 470k (when ure selling to a cat shop) (470k X 3= 1410k /6=235k)
    3. squad like the one ive stated would last for about 1 hour in NV.
    4. raptures/uncanies dont have a fixed aount x run, its just a drop rate so u can have less than 3 unkies + a lot of flawles ****
    5. omg im losing time to a fail sin? nvm ive said nothing b:shocked

    b:chuckle

    What thanos was getting at was.... if the average nirvana becomes harder/longer to do then the price of uncannies goes up, therefore the change of money/time isn't as affected as you're stating.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This discussion has been closed.

Categories