What the hell is up with APS...

Sunked - Lost City

Originally Posted by Jhalil - Heavens Tear View Post
I'm sorry, but if me refusing to take people whose damage output doesn't even come close to that of someone else that would be more than willing to come.

thats fine and noone is forcing u or expecting from u to take leechers, thing is, similarly geared other classes should not have that huuge difference in damage output, making them virtually useless

any end game build if its not -int can be used in tw or gv only, (any1 still remember there was something like tw) and thats bad.

Tojop - Dreamweaver

My sin has pretty good gear, 4 pieces of 99 gold, -int cape, everything +6 or so, but only hits 2.86 aps (need nirvana daggers, pants, or tome for 3.33). So I'm a good DD, but not incredible.

Today I saw world chat for a dd for nirvana, archer asks my attack rate and I explain. A minute goes by, "I guess you'll do." His gear? 3* claws, and only 90 gold bracers for -interval. 2 other sins in squad not hitting nearly as hard as I am.

What. The. Hell. b:puzzled

Edit: to put things in perspective, an "average" 5.0 archer will hit around 50k dps (take average base physical, multiply by 1.x for crit and again by 5 for aps). My sin hits like 43k. This is sparked, and not taking into account mob defense, obviously.

Teny - Heavens Tear

Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »

My sin has pretty good gear, 4 pieces of 99 gold, -int cape, everything +6 or so, but only hits 2.86 aps (need nirvana daggers, pants, or tome for 3.33). So I'm a good DD, but not incredible.

Today I saw world chat for a dd for nirvana, archer asks my attack rate and I explain. A minute goes by, "I guess you'll do." His gear? 3* claws, and only 90 gold bracers for -interval. 2 other sins in squad not hitting nearly as hard as I am.

What. The. Hell. b:puzzled

The only drawback of going with random WC squads.

Instead of making nirvana bosses seal they should have just made them hit harder, that way all the "noobs" would die and nirvana prices wouldn't be as **** as they are now. Right now all the seal does is **** people off, it doesn't really slow the farming down. Unless you're unlucky enough to go with those really bad squads and get stuck in there for 30+ mins.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Lyritha - Heavens Tear wrote: »

simple solution : give bosses bramble hood and have it function the PVE way not the PVP way b:chuckle

That's real funny, because then no one gets to kill it. Forgot about Bramble Hood's 75% reduction?

Teny - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The only drawback of going with random WC squads.

Instead of making nirvana bosses seal they should have just made them hit harder, that way all the "noobs" would die and nirvana prices wouldn't be as **** as they are now. Right now all the seal does is **** people off, it doesn't really slow the farming down. Unless you're unlucky enough to go with those really bad squads and get stuck in there for 30+ mins.

The seal slows your squad down substantially if your squad wasn't very fast to begin with. Fast squads kill a boss after 2 seals, slow squads suffer a lot more from this because it happens so many more times, especially with the random aggro going after clerics.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

That's... actually a really interesting paper you linked there. o.O

It's required reading for anyone designing an MMO, and to a lesser extent online communities in general. Raph Koster (the lead designer for Ultima Online) first pointed me to it.

Personally, I'm probably over 60-70% "explorer" type with a pinch of achiever mixed in. :P Or maybe I'm a hybrid.

There's a test that was made based on the paper. You can use it to figure out the type of gamer you are. I usually end up ESAK, 100% E, 60% S, 40% A, 0% K or thereabouts.
http://www.gamerdna.com/quizzes/bartle-test-of-gamer-psychology

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Jhalil - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And no, I've logged more than 2 chars for other instances before. And I don't ask or expect anything more than if I were logged on 1 character. So your assumption is incorrect

Ok, then I just read a little too far into your attitude. xP

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You know, I'm glad this thread exists. What the hell is the point of 5aps? What exactly are you farming faster that you don't already have? Nirvana gear? What do you farm after that? Oh, that's right, nothing... you get bored of endgame and then quit. o.O

5aps doesn't make the game less interesting. The lack of high level content makes this game uninteresting. It doesn't matter if you're 5aps or not, after running Nirvana or 3-3 500 times, all there is left is the events which only last maybe an hour at best.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Um... you do realize those things have cooldowns right? Genies take time to regen & apoth takes several minutes to return. I dunno do you guys just do alot of little 1v1s in TW? Thats the only way what you're saying would work. It a large group battle, you use genie or apoth & as soon as its few seconds are over you're right in the face of another person trying to stun you. And i fully admitted they had genies & apoth & other anti-stun at their disposal, but they arent always ready, meanwhile theres dozens of BMs on the feild with much faster CDs on the actual stuns & ready to throw them in your face.

As a BM yourself you should know your primary job in TW is to stun as many as you can. And of course ppl have their tools to get out of stuns, but if your guild cant organize to rotate stuns then you're just pretty sad at your job. A well oiled TW machine isnt just about 1v1 fights and what that 1 person has to compensate for your 1 move. I would expect you to know this & consider it.

I'm not talking about your worthless 1v1 PK squabbles. Why do ppl from PvP servers have such a huge ego thinking they're so superior in large scale PvP battles. You know, where it actually counts?

/facepalm

Who the hell is talking about TW? I'm talking about experience from open map group PvP where you aren't confined to a small space, you don't have front lines, you aren't doing a specific task, and you could be fighting 5v5, 20v20, one squad vs many... people come out of nowhere to nuke you or whatever.

You're the one who thinks stun > triple spark is so effective... In group PvP it's an idiot move unless you have a large group concentrated face-to-face on a couple of targets and have another BM ready to help stun.... you might as well try to DBB cancel > Shadow cancel >HF> GS cancel > True Emptiness someone.

In open map group PvP you have time to use your AD or PK pots... you're not sitting there constantly 1v1ing people. You're a freaking idiot and obviously the only PvP experience you have is 1v1 or TW... there's a whole lot more PK than just that.

I think you should watch some of Haiz's open map group PvP videos to get an example of what I mean because it's clear you haven't experienced anything like it.

b:bye

Cy_clone - Heavens Tear

Is a 4.0+ APS Barb better or BM? Maybe i should roll a demon Barb b:cute

Knownase - Heavens Tear

Cy_clone - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Is a 4.0+ APS Barb better or BM? Maybe i should roll a demon Barb b:cute

Personally, I think BMs have it better with fists, of course, they can have actual moves.

Barbs can do some nice little tricks though.

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's real funny, because then no one gets to kill it. Forgot about Bramble Hood's 75% reduction?



The seal slows your squad down substantially if your squad wasn't very fast to begin with. Fast squads kill a boss after 2 seals, slow squads suffer a lot more from this because it happens so many more times, especially with the random aggro going after clerics.

it would just be cast on occasion to make you purge and stop the punching... 5.0 APS + bramble hood deflect would = death to any not being healed by the cleric... making it so squads grab other DDs other than APS as the other non-tank APS DDs will drop without charms and will whine about charm costs... b:laugh

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Cy_clone - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Is a 4.0+ APS Barb better or BM? Maybe i should roll a demon Barb b:cute

Depends on the situation and whether or not the barb knows how to glitch into tiger form with claws.

Rumpleteazer - Heavens Tear

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As for the wizzys/psys/etc who can't get a squad, make a squad. If you can gather a decent 4.0 -int squad, you will be raking in money too. Take actions for yourselves.

So the options for magic users to do anything outside of TW are to either use another class, or leech off the -int people?
That said, given all the complaining from -ints about joining squads and seeing mages, I'd guess most people are already doing that, to the complaints of -int people.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

PWI WANTS players to play more than 1 class.

account stash stones and BH100-2 rewards make that pretty clear.

if you cant find a niche with the class your playing, or find another niche more attractive that you could fit into with another class, you should make a character of that class.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Rumpleteazer - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So the options for magic users to do anything outside of TW are to either use another class, or leech off the -int people?
That said, given all the complaining from -ints about joining squads and seeing mages, I'd guess most people are already doing that, to the complaints of -int people.

There's a difference between joining a -int squad w/ 1 caster other than cleric and joining a "-int squad" with like 4 casters

Just have a good mix of BM, Sin, Archer, caster and no one will care about the difference.

Ivy_ - Dreamweaver

I play 3 characters. One is out of the equation atm; as she's only level 73. She's a sin.

My old main, a wizard, has a +5 Divine Aegis and like 10.4k buffed max mag attack. I got a few nirvana runs with her.

My new main has a +7 Catalyst Soulsphere, has 10.9k buffed max mag attack. I've gotten a few nirvana runs with her. 2x gave me a time to shine with her, mostly because I was a relentless ***** otherwise. But that's how I am when I want something. And I ended up getting my pants.

I know of many wizards/psys/venos (not so much anymore though--venos are awesome in Nirvana) that has never stepped foot in there. Hell, I know of some BM's who don't get as many Nirvanas as they'd like because well...in others' eyes, they're not good enough.

As someone who knows how it feels to be excluded, I take the time to help those who want to do Nirvanas but can't because no one wants to. My fiance, a 3.33 sage fist BM, is also like that, even though he's shunned for only being 3.33 and not 4.0. Well, Nirvana's the only true way to make coin outside of csing, so how is he supposed to be 4.0 without getting them? I digress.

Now I come to my noob fishy, also known as my farming slave if I ever get her to 100. She won't be 5.0 right out the box. I have all her stuff planned out, but it's gonna cost me as much as both my wiz and psychic...combined. Now let's say I do hit 100 and I want to do nirvanas to get that gear. Will I naturally be screwed, despite the fact that she is a sin? Or will I have better luck getting Nirvana squads with her than with my magic classes that hit like trucks, but hit slower?

But yeah, I'm always looking for Nirvana squads on DW. And I'm not picky. A 2.5 hour run is fine by me, as long as everyone has a great time.

Quilue - Sanctuary

I wouldn't call a 2.5 hour run "making money"

as you're probably better off grinding mobs if that's the case.

Conavar - Heavens Tear

So the options for magic users to do anything outside of TW are to either use another class, or leech off the -int people?

Or

Squad with the Barb who wants to be able to tank in tiger , take a few of the non/low -int BM's, Archers and add other Mag classes.

You know .. like it was back in the day before -int.

People seem to have forgotten how to make squads without a **** load of -int char's in it.

Players always seem to complain they cant get squads because of all the aps classes but themselves are unwilling to run in a squad without them.

Ivy_ - Dreamweaver

My attention span doesn't take grinding very well. 10 minutes of it and I'm bored.

And I've been on only a handful of 2.5 hour runs. The squad had one -int character--my fiance. But they weren't entirely painful--some of those longer runs can be fun as hell.

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

There's a difference between joining a -int squad w/ 1 caster other than cleric and joining a "-int squad" with like 4 casters

Just have a good mix of BM, Sin, Archer, caster and no one will care about the difference.

I.E. Make a normal squad.

Unless it's a full 4.0+ aps squad with at least 1 sin for BP buff, you're really not gonna see that big of a difference in time. At least i don't.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Or

Squad with the Barb who wants to be able to tank in tiger , take a few of the non/low -int BM's, Archers and add other Mag classes.

You know .. like it was back in the day before -int.

People seem to have forgotten how to make squads without a **** load of -int char's in it.

Players always seem to complain they cant get squads because of all the aps classes but themselves are unwilling to run in a squad without them.

Because, they want the benefits of running an instance with people who have stacked -interval, but without putting forth the cost.

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Or

Squad with the Barb who wants to be able to tank in tiger , take a few of the non/low -int BM's, Archers and add other Mag classes.

You know .. like it was back in the day before -int.

People seem to have forgotten how to make squads without a **** load of -int char's in it.

Players always seem to complain they cant get squads because of all the aps classes but themselves are unwilling to run in a squad without them.

The only time I truely care to seek -int. is for Snakefist BH. Sometimes, a normal squad just doesn't cut it when half the squad is dead when his HP hits 50%.

And I can only take so much abuse when he starts hitting for 10k. >.>

Quilue - Sanctuary

Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I.E. Make a normal squad.

Unless it's a full 4.0+ aps squad with at least 1 sin for BP buff, you're really not gonna see that big of a difference in time. At least i don't.

That's because other classes bring something to the table (if they're any good). A veno as last slot means Amp and Rainbow, a barb means attack buff, a wizard means water buff, a BM means HF, even if he doesn't have claws or -int. When you already have people that do good damage, a non -int as last slot can still contribute to the squad's overall damage.

Unfortunately a lot of wizards don't even bother to level their water buff. Not saying if a wiz maxes water buff suddenly everyone will take him/her on runs, but if one does not want to leech, one should work to contribute as much as possible. Every little bit helps, say you do **** damage, can you at least keep Extreme Poison on the boss?

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Unfortunately a lot of wizards don't even bother to level their water buff.

Just from experience, wizes don't really bother buffing the melees. If they do give the shiney hand buff, it's mostly for themselves & the cleric <.< I facepalm.

can you at least keep Extreme Poison on the boss?

That would be the day...

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

i feel sorry for all mages, but -in other hand- some people want everything on silver plate

i know that in 5 aps nirvana squads im barely useful, so i try to contribute as much work i can:

i insist on people to not wear charms (i actually heal there, so even 6k hp archer just with bm buff wont have big prob to tank whole run)
i try to keep boss perm debuffed with demon dimensional seal,
i even pull bosses (more cuz of boredom lol)
i do chests and kill black feathers.
i also dont have problem with random aggro (actually, i always try to steal it) and even if there will be some casual death, it is no biggie since i have 11 rez, and i always try to use it asap..
im pure mag with 11lvl heals and +10 weapon and demon magic buff, so my heals are tard strong, which allows me to DD a bit more..


and the moral of this post is: dont expect that ppl who spent 200m+ on their gears, will esteem your 'contribution' if u have +4 weapon and lay dead or stay afk for half of run

Susylu - Heavens Tear

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i feel sorry for all mages, but -in other hand- some people want everything on silver plate

i know that in 5 aps nirvana squads im barely useful, so i try to contribute as much work i can:

i insist on people to not wear charms (i actually heal there, so even 6k archer just with bm buff wont have bigger prob to tank whole run)
i try to keep boss perm debuffed with demon dimensional seal,
i even pull bosses (more cuz of boredom lol)
i do chest and kill black feathers.
i also dont have problem with random aggro (actually, i always try to steal it) and even if there will be some casual death, it is no biggie since i have 11 rez, and i always try to use it asap..
im pure mag with 11lvl heals and +10 weapon and demon magic buff, so my heals are tard strong, which allows me to DD a bit more..


and the moral of this post is: dont expect that ppl who spent 200m+ on their gears, will esteem your 'contribution' if u have +4 weapon and lay dead or stay afk for half of run

b:victory That and if you get a str genie with max tangling mire it helps a lot too since the DDs should be spamming frenzy with theirs. It does get really annoying when someone goes and just stands there knowing it'll be over quick without doing a thing to help - like Quilue says, every bit helps.

About making squads without aps - it's more than doable, it's just that I understand the want to do faster runs, and having aps is the best way to finish fast. So you really can't blame people for looking for it.

Ninnuam - Sanctuary

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Depends on the situation and whether or not the barb knows how to glitch into tiger form with claws.

Which of course, is bannable

Kimicat - Sanctuary

i dont like the aps... i cant find bh or fcc squads at all sometimes..... b:angry

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Kimicat - Sanctuary wrote: »

i dont like the aps... i cant find bh or fcc squads at all sometimes..... b:angry

the mania for high, -int people in FC is kinda silly, its aoes more than dps that make the runs go fast, pretty much any squad 95+ should be able to drop the bosses in under 5 minutes.

and DPS for eden/brim/79? lol, its not like you can perma-anything but the bosses anyway, and their full of runners, which fists suck for.


in nirvana, i find myself using my genie pretty much exclusively for cloud eruption for more HFs and demon sparks, and pretty much only frenzy on the self-buff boss, and the snake-spawning boss

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

This whole 10 hits in 2 seconds thing is sounding really idiotic. Are you going to sit there while a BM triple sparks and wait for him to attack you? Freaking morons...

Some BMs are at 4aps base, but not many. A good portion of fist bms are not 5aps (3.33 normal).

If you're stupid enough to try to tank a fist BM's triple spark, you deserve to die.

Again, this thread proves that people have nervious twitches when they hear "5aps" without even knowing what it really means.

/epicfacepalmx10

b:bye

u try tell me in group pk/tw u dont have time? also was few ppl talked about ~ -90% channeling what bigger lol than 5 aps (also -channeling less effective coz not reduce only the channeling time) :P (since every **** must be on u -channeling and u must be damn lucky for that also need buff/3rd spark for that and ur pdef is lower than mdef to any -interval class with pdef ornament)

Umm.... you do realize that Absolute Domain, Faith. Expel, Ironguard Powder and Sutra Power Orbs exist, right? Do you actually know that most people who PvP on a regular basis use them as well, right?

You're an idiot if you think stun > triple spark is all that effective as a pvp tactic and I'll just lol at you like I do much of the time. I'm on a pvp server, people don't try to tank BM triple spark like they do on pve servers... and before you say it's not true I've witnessed it many times both on your server and sanct where the pvp is absolutely horrid.... lol

You really should learn to play a BM if stun + triple ir your little one-trick poiny. Sorry to say, it usually never works.

so absolute domain/expel after that i could die coz i cant use the genie for a longer time, i understanded well? acctually most of ppl use fist lv49 skill what is 20% boost (demon version) and pretty fast compared with 3rd spark.

srsly about those whining about archers getting aps....

i dont see nothing bad in that, because archer dont got uterly huge hp or too much defensive skill (have few usefull ofc but still less effective than bm/sin/barb skills).

Not that high at all, really. The usual squad I'm in has a 2.5 APS sage sin. I'm talking about people who have the TT90 gold wrists and nothing else and then get mad when they get refused.

i think better if dont play ppl's who dont invest to cs or play half day and have real life XD /sarcasm


a notice about Wizz, i know slower with pdef ornaments but i love the class without -100000% channeling time too, i think most of mage class have problem maybe with pve part where they can spend how much money they want and still they will be last when need a dd after that in pvp maybe mostly vs sin XD

I think you should watch some of Haiz's open map group PvP videos to get an example of what I mean because it's clear you haven't experienced anything like it.

i pked enough with wizz vs 3.33 aps bm's (bonus from 2x light 99,and from heavy 99 set and lunar or tt100 weapons) and the only chance was if i used the genie in exactly good time (but that bm's dont got jonas blessing), problem was, my genie after this was on cooldown for enough long time....

with respect... really... but i understand if few mage class complain... another side if i want a mage class i must realy do a money gainer character 1st time and only after that could do a good mage class.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

the mania for high, -int people in FC is kinda silly, its aoes more than dps that make the runs go fast, pretty much any squad 95+ should be able to drop the bosses in under 5 minutes.

Eh, mobs die so quick and so fast, the actual time in pulls is the PULL itself, you know, the barb/whoever running around.

So... yeah.

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

with respect... really... but i understand if few mage class complain... another side if i want a mage class i must realy do a money gainer character 1st time and only after that could do a good mage class.

True but then again that is Michael_Dark you are talking to... he won't understand it. Even if he were to roll a new mage char, it would be on Lost City, so it would be biased.

Let him try a mage char on a new server (for him) without any server-to-server trades and tell us how it goes. b:bye

Jhalil - Heavens Tear

I hardly understood anything that Shadwovsz wrote, yet I read it all.