What the hell is up with APS...

Over_Kill - Lost City

Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

One thing I find amusing though is when a Wiz/cleric/phys etc starts a squad they only want APS players in it .. Hey what happened to the Mag Class Workers Union

That quote is true I as a wiz do not even take other wiz in my squad unless I have no other choice.

Also I saw a veno with fists recently, this aps thing is ruining how classes work. b:shocked

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I got sick of being refused Nirvana runs, so I decided to become a 4.0 Claw Barb.


Raking money in ever since, my only regret, I'm basically not a Barb anymore. rofl

But you're pro. You got a puzzle cube for dying O_o

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Funny thing is very often those TT99 green weapon +3 players instead choose the lazy option and form their own squads, demanding 5.0 only players. The problem is, all the average refined players refuse to run instances with each other because they all see the other as being "too slow".

I love that lmao.

"need someone with at least 3.33 aps for nirvana"

"I have 4.0"
*joins squad*

*Sees 2 psys, a mage, pure vit barb and a cleric

*leaves*

Okeano - Harshlands

Woneo - Harshlands wrote: »

Im a sage non cs-ing sin.
How do you think I feel?b:cry... In pve that is

*Pats* there there Woneo, there's always cult change b:chuckle.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

I love that lmao.

"need someone with at least 3.33 aps for nirvana"

"I have 4.0"
*joins squad*

*Sees 2 psys, a mage, pure vit barb and a cleric

*leaves*

My last two squad's been like that... My current run, the pole BM d/c since first boss. We are waiting at 4th boss on Cleric who went out to get more MP food, and BM not back yet... so not joining random wc squad asking for fast DD again -_-;

KingThis - Heavens Tear

WHERE ALL THE NEGATIVE CHAN ARCANE USERS?
ARE WE GONNA QQ WHEN WIZZY/CLERIC/VENO/PSY ACTUALLY TRY TO REACH NEGATIVE 60-100 CHANNELING?

remember magic doesn't miss and they sure hit a lot harder than melee users

Knownase - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

"need someone with at least 3.33 aps for nirvana"

"I have 4.0"
*joins squad*

*Sees 2 psys, a mage, pure vit barb and a cleric

*leaves*

My typical nightmare from joining WC squads.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

-Channel caps off at -90%, and they still have cast times.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

KingThis - Heavens Tear wrote: »

WHERE ALL THE NEGATIVE CHAN ARCANE USERS?
ARE WE GONNA QQ WHEN WIZZY/CLERIC/VENO/PSY ACTUALLY TRY TO REACH NEGATIVE 60-100 CHANNELING?

remember magic doesn't miss and they sure hit a lot harder than melee users

ok acctually u lose more if u want reach -70%+ channeling than others with interval gear.
Oh, barb could hit harder with ulti (have chance for 4x more damage if he is lucky) than wizz with ulti.

Channel caps off at -90%, and they still have cast times.

and here the point, even with -100% casting few skill got 1sec casting and this time u could get 5 lower dmg. XD
(and still u can get skill intterupt xD)

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

-Channel caps off at -90%, and they still have cast times.

cap your passive chan at 74% and you can get 99% with spark, i think we went over this in the last APS is OP QQ thread.

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

ok acctually u lose more if u want reach -70%+ channeling than others with interval gear.
Oh, barb could hit harder with ulti (have chance for 4x more damage if he is lucky) than wizz with ulti.



(and still u can get skill intterupt xD)

seals mess up everyones game in nirvana, not just casters.

assuming your getting 4x from crit+sac strike,
wizzies can't crit anymore?

Loltank - Harshlands

-channeling doesn't work as well as 5APS because of cast time and cooldowns. I could spam all my skills in succession as a wiz, and still have to wait on a couple cooldowns. (Looking at you, Glacial Snare.)

That said, a gush -> pyro -> stone rain loop would be great... if psychics didn't already serve this purpose without -channel gear and hit harder to boot.

Tojop - Dreamweaver

A friend of mine used to play a popular MMO based on the universe of a real-time strategy game, and said casters in that game had to actually mind their skill tempo so as not to run out of mana; with herb yuanxiao, running out of mana in this game is virtually impossible, save for mana drains and their ilk. Maybe they could just lower bosses' magic defense across the board or something?

Edit: the above, if the stronger spells/higher cost thing isn't an option. left this part out

Shevanel - Sanctuary

I had the idea like tojops. Reduce the magical resistance of all bosses by 50% or something, but also reduce the amount of threat created by the damage dealt. Voila, mage classes can hit much harder, do comparable damage and still have a chance at not taking agro on every critic, letting the barbs and bm tank.

That or ( for nirvana) do away with the aoe seal, create a short range (melee range) aoe seal that lasts longer, and boom! mage clsses and archers are desired again.

NonameWiz - Sanctuary

Shevanel - Sanctuary wrote: »

I had the idea like tojops. Reduce the magical resistance of all bosses by 50% or something, but also reduce the amount of threat created by the damage dealt. Voila, mage classes can hit much harder, do comparable damage and still have a chance at not taking agro on every critic, letting the barbs and bm tank.

That or ( for nirvana) do away with the aoe seal, create a short range (melee range) aoe seal that lasts longer, and boom! mage clsses and archers are desired again.

Bad idea, brilliant idea is make all mobs immune to physical attack b:dirty

Michael_Dark - Lost City

This thread.... again.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

This thread.... again.

less pew pew, moar QQ

Quilue - Sanctuary

Who the **** cares about cast times of caster spells? Do you people realize how stupid you sound saying -chan isn't as good? How hard do claws hit in PvP really? +10 claws and you might deal about 900?

Well a robe with a +10 wep might deal around 5k+ with just regular spells like Gush and Cyclone. Do you know that archers, with max -int gear available and wielding a bow, would just reach around 1 attack/s? When you pop off Wield or Sandstorm in less than 2s, you realize no one else deal damage that fast right?

To top that off, consider the number of mdef buffs there are in this game, versus the number of pdef buffs.

You can't change one aspect of the game without changing another when you mess with how classes deal damage.

Loltank - Harshlands

To be fair, i was only talking about bosses/PvE, where it wouldn't really make much of a difference. Obviously that kind of damage would be broken in PvP.

So again, I refer you to a competent +10 weapon Psychic. It's definitely OP.

Over_Kill - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Who the **** cares about cast times of caster spells? Do you people realize how stupid you sound saying -chan isn't as good? How hard do claws hit in PvP really? +10 claws and you might deal about 900?

Well a robe with a +10 wep might deal around 5k+ with just regular spells like Gush and Cyclone. Do you know that archers, with max -int gear available and wielding a bow, would just reach around 1 attack/s? When you pop off Wield or Sandstorm in less than 2s, you realize no one else deal damage that fast right?

To top that off, consider the number of mdef buffs there are in this game, versus the number of pdef buffs.

You can't change one aspect of the game without changing another when you mess with how classes deal damage.

So if a bm stuns you or occult and you have no absolute domain or air to ground damage reduction available. in 2 secs the bm 5aps will put in 10 hits * 900 damage. Dealing 9000 damage in 2 secs assuming they do not crit, to be honest it does not sound weak at all. Also i do not see a wiz doing 5k damage with gush even with +10 without sparking or debuff or crit or opponent not equally geared and so on. Wiz are not weak in pvp do not get me wrong. All I am saying is your 5000 gush pvp damage does not look right unless wiz out gears opponent. One more thing this thread is not about 1 aps archers with bows. If archers could get 5 aps with bows now that would be scary.b:laugh

volst

Let's just make every class a 5 aps melee class. The "mages" will just randomly show magic animation to pretend they're actual magic users. b:pleased

Quilue - Sanctuary

I said deal 5k, not hit for 5k, people's defenses are very different and that would depend on the target. If I tried to account for target defense you're going to talk to me about 10k mdef BMs in mag marrow. Here's how I estimated 5k with Gush using a +10 Wep:

+10 Sinra has a weapon damage of about 1600

With 2 saph gems and 2 Lunar rings your equipment damage is now about 1950

Base damage: I estimated 14k for a buffed wizard with 500+ magic

14000 + 1950 + 3390 = 19340 raw damage from lvl 11 Gush

That's 4835 damage in PvP. Now add in Mastery and Jone's. Easily 5k+.

storehammy

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

+10 Shinra has a weapon damage of about 1600

b:shocked
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rufus_Shinra#Rufus_Shinra

fulgida

Over_Kill - Lost City wrote: »

So if a bm stuns you or occult and you have no absolute domain or air to ground damage reduction available. in 2 secs the bm 5aps will put in 10 hits * 900 damage. Dealing 9000 damage in 2 secs assuming they do not crit, to be honest it does not sound weak at all. Also i do not see a wiz doing 5k damage with gush even with +10 without sparking or debuff or crit or opponent not equally geared and so on. Wiz are not weak in pvp do not get me wrong. All I am saying is your 5000 gush pvp damage does not look right unless wiz out gears opponent. One more thing this thread is not about 1 aps archers with bows. If archers could get 5 aps with bows now that would be scary.b:laugh

If a bm stuns you, to be fair you need to include the time which the bm needs to close distance with you and use his skill. If a bm uses occult ice on you, to be fair you need to include the time which the bm needs to close distance with you and you need to allow the person on the other side of the comparison to use a genie skill of their choice, with comparable stats (and, occult ice succeeds only a third of the time with generic genie stats...).

Also, with 5aps you should assume that crits happen. For example, if the bm has a 20% crit rate, you should assume that 2 of the 10 attacks crit and the others do not. This winds up being qualitatively different from having a magic attack crit (except that apparently lag can keep charms from being effective for low health squishies).

Meanwhile, just wearing interval gear instead of cheaply obtainable physical defense gear (sky demon's pearl and 4th map belt), can wind up costing you on the order of 1k-ish health (exact amounts depending on your base health)...

Kai_Umi - Heavens Tear

if the bm has a 20% crit rate, you should assume that 2 of the 10 attacks crit and the others do not

*facepalm* 20% crit means every atk u get 20 % chance to crit, not that you ll crit 20% of your hit on a certain amount of hit b:surrender

Over_Kill - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I said deal 5k, not hit for 5k.

K makes more sense nowb:thanks

fulgida wrote: »

If a bm stuns you, to be fair you need to include the time which the bm needs to close distance with you and use his skill. If a bm uses occult ice on you, to be fair you need to include the time which the bm needs to close distance with you and you need to allow the person on the other side of the comparison to use a genie skill of their choice, with comparable stats (and, occult ice succeeds only a third of the time with generic genie stats...).

Also, with 5aps you should assume that crits happen. For example, if the bm has a 20% crit rate, you should assume that 2 of the 10 attacks crit and the others do not. This winds up being qualitatively different from having a magic attack crit (except that apparently lag can keep charms from being effective for low health squishies).

Meanwhile, just wearing interval gear instead of cheaply obtainable physical defense gear (sky demon's pearl and 4th map belt), can wind up costing you on the order of 1k-ish health (exact amounts depending on your base health)...

Yes I know it will take time to close the gap that is why I only used 2 secs instead of the whole stun duration. Also I was trying to say the damage aps deal is not weak so I wanted to get the minimum damage they will deal without debuffs or crit just to show how high it is without crit. I know it is very likely they will crit. Using stats there is a 10% chance they will not crit (.8^10 if my calculation is not messed).

Kai_Umi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

*facepalm* 20% crit means every atk u get 20 % chance to crit, not that you ll crit 20% of your hit on a certain amount of hit b:surrender

This +1

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Who the **** cares about cast times of caster spells? Do you people realize how stupid you sound saying -chan isn't as good? How hard do claws hit in PvP really? +10 claws and you might deal about 900?

Well a robe with a +10 wep might deal around 5k+ with just regular spells like Gush and Cyclone. Do you know that archers, with max -int gear available and wielding a bow, would just reach around 1 attack/s? When you pop off Wield or Sandstorm in less than 2s, you realize no one else deal damage that fast right?

To top that off, consider the number of mdef buffs there are in this game, versus the number of pdef buffs.

You can't change one aspect of the game without changing another when you mess with how classes deal damage.

i am not sure u deal too low damage on unbuffed target with ur bow and about gush its more than 1sec and sandstorm again more than 2 sec. (about 900 dmg, not indifferent if u deal 900*10 dmg and got 12k hp [lets say its a fist bm] and lets say 30% crit rate or 5k dmg with 7k hp 15% crit rate).

(about def, is raising exp, not linear anyway and maybe archer got less mdef but got more range, still i dont say lets give more dmg to wizz because then really will be less fun the pk. mostly archer got less usefull or too short def skill but sin/bm/barb got pretty usefull skills like sutra, 2nd chance+25%chance for avoid the magical dmg too,barb turtle+chi gainer skill)

Izabeau - Sanctuary

Um gee, before too many ppl complain about archers/claws/fists -
another reason archers almost have to resort to claws/fists is because 9 times out of 10, the tanks can't keep aggro, even if said archers "dance" while using bows.
There are very few barb and/or bm tanks nowadays who know how the hell to keep aggro.
(Thankfully I know a few b:chuckle )

I am amazed at how few barbs actually use FR, then have the gonads to complain that they cant keep aggro from anyone.
DUH!

(pointing this out that not ALL archers are going for the 5aps, some of us dun mind playing the game at our OWN pace, our OWN way - not as others do. )

Valirah - Sanctuary

Kai_Umi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

*facepalm* 20% crit means every atk u get 20 % chance to crit, not that you ll crit 20% of your hit on a certain amount of hit b:surrender

A 20% crit rate means that on average 2 of every 10 hits will crit. No one is talking about a single run of 10 hits garunteeing 2 crits. Perhaps you should ease up on the forehead smacks, maybe then you'd better understand basic statistics.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

This whole 10 hits in 2 seconds thing is sounding really idiotic. Are you going to sit there while a BM triple sparks and wait for him to attack you? Freaking morons...

Some BMs are at 4aps base, but not many. A good portion of fist bms are not 5aps (3.33 normal).

If you're stupid enough to try to tank a fist BM's triple spark, you deserve to die.

Again, this thread proves that people have nervious twitches when they hear "5aps" without even knowing what it really means.

/epicfacepalmx10

b:bye

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

This whole 10 hits in 2 seconds thing is sounding really idiotic. Are you going to sit there while a BM triple sparks and wait for him to attack you? Freaking morons...

Some BMs are at 4aps base, but not many. A good portion of fist bms are not 5aps (3.33 normal).

If you're stupid enough to try to tank a fist BM's triple spark, you deserve to die.

Again, this thread proves that people have nervious twitches when they hear "5aps" without even knowing what it really means.

/epicfacepalmx10

b:bye

You call them idiots but you're also acting like the BM is an idiot in that scenerio. Chances are the BM is going to run up & roar/occult/etc. Sometimes the victim manages to genie anti-stun or otherwise get away, but chances are, more often then not they are stunned. This gives the BM 6 seconds to spark & have a couple seconds to hit. So yes, the victim often is experiencing this. They arent trying to "tank" the BM, they just cant get away.

Knownase - Heavens Tear

One thing I hate about having 4.0+ aps, friends start to get....mad if you don't take them to Nirv......