What the hell is up with APS...

Knownase - Heavens Tear

Having 4.0+ aps just means you are gonna be raking the money in. APS brings forth greed and jealously imo.

So what is the deal with aps? Fast runs = easy money, or you can cashshop.

Psys and Wizzys often complain that they never get runs. Same with me, before I went -int. No one wanted a vit Barb for Nirvana, and if they did, which was rare, they would ask for debuffing/buffs.

I find it funny again, now that I'm 4.0, almost 5.0 soon, I'm everyone's favorite Barb again.....go figure....but before I became a claw user, typical response is "We need 4.0+ people, not a normal Barb."

I like my build, took me forever to get it, yea I could have cashshopped it, but hey....


College > PWi rofl

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Sunked - Lost City wrote: »

p.s
5aps is not broken, permaspark is, think im gonna make separate thread about that when i win with my laziness ;p

Considering that (aside from assassins) the whole reason you can achieve permaspark is 5 APS, the distinction is kinda moot.

People generally consider the interval system to be broken because it has increasing returns (opposite of diminishing returns).

• If you're at 0.83 APS and you add a -0.05 interval item, you'd be at 0.87 APS (gain of 0.04 APS).
• If you're at 1 APS and add a -0.05 item, you'd be at 1.05 APS (gain of 0.05 APS).
• If you're at 2 APS and add a -0.05 item, you'd be at 2.22 APS (gain of .22 APS).
• If you're at 4 APS and add a -0.05 item, you'd be at 5 APS (gain of 1 APS).

Generally, when designing these things, you want the benefit to have a slight diminishing returns curve. At the very least you want it to be constant. But evidently someone who was really bad at math on the PWE dev team designed the interval system. That's what people mean when they say 5 APS is broken.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Umm.... you do realize that Absolute Domain, Faith. Expel, Ironguard Powder and Sutra Power Orbs exist, right? Do you actually know that most people who PvP on a regular basis use them as well, right?

You're an idiot if you think stun > triple spark is all that effective as a pvp tactic and I'll just lol at you like I do much of the time. I'm on a pvp server, people don't try to tank BM triple spark like they do on pve servers... and before you say it's not true I've witnessed it many times both on your server and sanct where the pvp is absolutely horrid.... lol

You really should learn to play a BM if stun + triple ir your little one-trick poiny. Sorry to say, it usually never works.

b:bye

Um... you do realize those things have cooldowns right? Genies take time to regen & apoth takes several minutes to return. I dunno do you guys just do alot of little 1v1s in TW? Thats the only way what you're saying would work. It a large group battle, you use genie or apoth & as soon as its few seconds are over you're right in the face of another person trying to stun you. And i fully admitted they had genies & apoth & other anti-stun at their disposal, but they arent always ready, meanwhile theres dozens of BMs on the feild with much faster CDs on the actual stuns & ready to throw them in your face.

As a BM yourself you should know your primary job in TW is to stun as many as you can. And of course ppl have their tools to get out of stuns, but if your guild cant organize to rotate stuns then you're just pretty sad at your job. A well oiled TW machine isnt just about 1v1 fights and what that 1 person has to compensate for your 1 move. I would expect you to know this & consider it.

I'm not talking about your worthless 1v1 PK squabbles. Why do ppl from PvP servers have such a huge ego thinking they're so superior in large scale PvP battles. You know, where it actually counts?

Miugre - Heavens Tear

lolitrolu wrote: »

yeah cause once you get 5aps you automatically get also maxed refines and full shards. please.


may also be cause you're not even lvl100

Oh is that it? "I'm gonna farm tons of raptures so I can sell them and upgrade my weapon in order to farm raptures 5 mins faster." And what happens when you reach complete 100% perfection - full Nirvana, full refines, full shards? Then what?

I've just never understood why people feel this need to "win" the game by playing like a perfectionist. Is it so you can stand in arch and believe people are admiring your gear all day? I know I'm not the only one who thinks "wow, that's just sad" when I see +12s or full Nirvana.

I love how you say "not even lv100" btw. Look at my join date. Do you think I care about reaching 100 anytime soon? XD

Knownase - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Oh is that it? "I'm gonna farm tons of raptures so I can sell them and upgrade my weapon in order to farm raptures 5 mins faster." And what happens when you reach complete 100% perfection - full Nirvana, full refines, full shards? Then what?

I've just never understood why people feel this need to "win" the game by playing like a perfectionist. Is it so you can stand in arch and believe people are admiring your gear all day? I know I'm not the only one who thinks "wow, that's just sad" when I see +12s or full Nirvana.

I love how you say "not even lv100" btw. Look at my join date. Do you think I care about reaching 100 anytime soon? XD

You make it sound like 100% "perfection" is easy to get.

Susylu - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Oh is that it? "I'm gonna farm tons of raptures so I can sell them and upgrade my weapon in order to farm raptures 5 mins faster." And what happens when you reach complete 100% perfection - full Nirvana, full refines, full shards? Then what?

Some just like to make money because it's fun to do so. I mean who doesn't like fast money? The farming is "fun" if you know you're making like 3m in a nirvana run that only takes 10 minutes to do. Aslo once the gear is out of the way, then we start making money for the sole purpose of having fun.

Fun = Fashion b:laughb:surrender

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I've just never understood why people feel this need to "win" the game by playing like a perfectionist. Is it so you can stand in arch and believe people are admiring your gear all day? I know I'm not the only one who thinks "wow, that's just sad" when I see +12s or full Nirvana.

I love how you say "not even lv100" btw. Look at my join date. Do you think I care about reaching 100 anytime soon? XD

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing with levels. A bunch of friends I met early on were obsessed with reaching level 100. They played every night, rapidly passed me, reached level 100, lost interest, and quit. Presumably they're playing some other game where they're obsessed with reaching near-max level as quickly as they can, so they can quit and do it again in another game.

The folks who are obsessed with levels, farming gear, sharding and refining it, and only inviting 3+ APS members to their group are classic achiever types.
http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

i) Achievers regard points-gathering and rising in levels as their main goal, and all is ultimately subserviant to this. Exploration is necessary only to find new sources of treasure, or improved ways of wringing points from it. Socialising is a relaxing method of discovering what other players know about the business of accumulating points, that their knowledge can be applied to the task of gaining riches. Killing is only necessary to eliminate rivals or people who get in the way, or to gain vast amounts of points (if points are awarded for killing other players).

Achievers say things like:

"I'm busy."
"Sure, I'll help you. What do I get?"
"So how do YOU kill the dragon, then?"
"Only 4211 points to go!"

If you're not an achiever type, there's really not much point getting upset that they're not inviting you to their groups because you don't have 3+ APS. Even if they did invite you, their play style is so different from yours that you'd probably be miserable the entire time you're grouped with them. They'd probably boot you for doing "wasteful" things like chatting, asking too many questions, trying to figure out which skills worked best on different mobs, wandering off to see whats in the section of the dungeon they're skipping, spending too much time on a RL phone call, etc.

To each their own.

Sunked - Lost City

yea makin/having money is fun, and i bet pwi CEO knows about it very well

2x ha = 50mil
2x la = 50mil
lunar cape = 50mil
claws = 70mil
tome =200mil

---

all with some refines more or less 500mil = 1000$

and 0 after cose u can make 4 runs a day = 4 mil

and i cant imagine to heavy cash shop for any other purposes than -int gear
as soon as u reach your 4/5aps no more money to pwi noone else cashsoping cose why, u never reach 'return' as u would reach with aps

no money for pwi = pwi management neeed to think about something

3 options,
1. Make farming more difficult so u still charge to get ur refines/fash w/e fun is for u fast
2. Put more op not farmable gear
3. Do something with aps and give other ppl reason to chage

Susylu - Heavens Tear

EDIT: Never mindd! b:laugh

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Sunked - Lost City wrote: »

yea makin/having money is fun, and i bet pwi CEO knows about it very well

2x ha = 50mil
2x la = 50mil
lunar cape = 50mil
claws = 70mil
tome =200mil

---

all with some refines more or less 500mil = 1000$

and 0 after cose u can make 4 runs a day = 4 mil

Um, what the hell? If you want cheap 5 aps, go claw sin. That's the best and cheapest 5 aps you can get:
Deicide
Rank 4 armor
Energetic Robe: Wraithgate
Lionheart ornaments
Ashura wrist + boots

Also, you can get a Pan Gu, The Creator instead of Love: Up and Down, that's gonna cut the tome cost down to 150-180m. Also, in terms of costs, the Nirvana leggings might come cheaper, if you can get the 250 raptures for 400k each.

And I don't see how the ornaments total 50 million either. I've seen people WC EBIs for 12m. Tsuchun's Dark Soul is about 5-7m each, so that's 34-38m for the neck and belt, plus whatever little the other mats cost. But I doubt they total 12-16m.

And I don't see the LA wrist + boots costing 50,000,000 either, more like 40,000,000-45,000,000 or so.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing with levels. A bunch of friends I met early on were obsessed with reaching level 100. They played every night, rapidly passed me, reached level 100, lost interest, and quit. Presumably they're playing some other game where they're obsessed with reaching near-max level as quickly as they can, so they can quit and do it again in another game.

The folks who are obsessed with levels, farming gear, sharding and refining it, and only inviting 3+ APS members to their group are classic achiever types.
http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm


If you're not an achiever type, there's really not much point getting upset that they're not inviting you to their groups because you don't have 3+ APS. Even if they did invite you, their play style is so different from yours that you'd probably be miserable the entire time you're grouped with them. They'd probably boot you for doing "wasteful" things like chatting, asking too many questions, trying to figure out which skills worked best on different mobs, wandering off to see whats in the section of the dungeon they're skipping, spending too much time on a RL phone call, etc.

To each their own.

That's... actually a really interesting paper you linked there. o.O

Especially:

Tilting a MUD towards achievers would make it obsessed with gameplay. Players would spend their time looking for tactics to improve their position, and the presence of other players would become unnecessary. The result would be effectively a single-player adventure game (SUD?).

To me, this kinda feels like how PWI is going right now. There is this nauseating new emphasis on soloing lately. There are people who seem to feel like running with a squad is beneath them. -_-

Personally, I'm probably over 60-70% "explorer" type with a pinch of achiever mixed in. :P Or maybe I'm a hybrid. I recently accomplished my dream endgame weapon - a self-made 2s Burst of Vacuity - the point of which is to achieve something that can work, but that the classic "achiever" types would write off as beneath them. But just as important to me is the style - I want BoV more than a Heaven Shatterer because BoV is a good-looking weapon whereas HS is ugly. So where would you put me, Solandri? XD

ahhao

Problem: not every class can go -int. So should everyone roll a -int class now?

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

ahhao wrote: »

Problem: not every class can go -int. So should everyone roll a -int class now?

Yes.


People (at least at higher levels) have always had an alt to farm on.


Before packs came out and -interval was so popular a veno with a herc to farm on was the thing to have.

Sunked - Lost City

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um, what the hell? If you want cheap 5 aps, go claw sin.

I admit those figures r rough + i counted hh90 and all u need to get souledges (more or less) and ofc if u not 100% cs u can get some during ur play,

the point is: its cheap

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

ahhao wrote: »

Problem: not everyone can afford -int. So should everyone just quit now?

What if this is your problem?

It is my "problem" since I don't have enough money for 5 aps build but to be honest, I don't care. I'll get the equips I can and that's it; if my end-game aps will be 1.54 or 3.33 base then it is my end-game aps. No need to stress over it too much.

Sunked - Lost City

Problem: not every class can go -int. So should everyone roll a -int class now?

thats problem, i like wizze, but cant compete with any amount of money i trow into game, so i just not willing to trow any

Problem: not everyone can afford -int. So should everyone just quit now?

aww so sry, who cares, yea u should quit if u cant eventually collect your -int gear (if thats your goal).

Knownase - Heavens Tear

I didn't cashshop my -int gears, you shouldn't have to either.

I merched, ran 99 key bosses, ran Tiger/Nien Events, after 3 months, I am where I am now.

4.0 Barb, almost 5.0, swapped to Demon, raking in the money. I have decent HP, I can tank nearly every boss in Human form. I am loving every bit of it too.

Point is, -int isn't impossible to get, so stop QQing that it is.

As for the wizzys/psys/etc who can't get a squad, make a squad. If you can gather a decent 4.0 -int squad, you will be raking in money too. Take actions for yourselves.

Akyeno - Heavens Tear

Since I am currently not eligible to Nirvana, when I get there would it be my best bet to create a squad? I ask because based on my knowledge getting into a Nirvana squad is next to impossible as an arcane class, since most squads are seeking 3.33aps+ blademasters,barbarians and so on.

Thank you in advanceb:thanks.

Knownase - Heavens Tear

Akyeno - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Since I am currently not eligible to Nirvana, when I get there would it be my best bet to create a squad? I ask because based on my knowledge getting into a Nirvana squad is next to impossible as an arcane class, since most squads are seeking 3.33aps+ blademasters,barbarians and so on.

Thank you in advanceb:thanks.

Creating Nirv squads can be easy, or a major pain. Start by making friends, or at least knowing ppl, with -int gear, or just WC for a squad, and ask for 4.0+ -int BMs/Archer/Barbs/Sins.

Most -int ppl will be more than happy enough to join a Nirv squad, especially if they know the squad is good.

Be warned though, WC squads are known to fail horribly and can be pure hell. b:surrender

Sunked - Lost City

just normal ep + barb and some dd, its just going to be longer than 15 min, other idea is to roll -int class and get gear for ur main fish

Knownase was faster, but cmn nirvana is doable without -int gear

Rawthorne - Heavens Tear

Knownase get your *** ingame and msg me so we can burn through the rest of your keysb:laugh I've got like 30 or so to use between today and tomorrowb:cry

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Point is, -int isn't impossible to get, so stop QQing that it is.

As for the wizzys/psys/etc who can't get a squad, make a squad. If you can gather a decent 4.0 -int squad, you will be raking in money too. Take actions for yourselves.

Yeah, it isn't impossible to get. It's just that it takes long enough (for me) that I'm not sure if I still play the game after... six months? Of course I'm still striving for the "best" DD build. Giving up would be pointless.

In red: that's not the way to go imo. It has a name too, it's called "leeching". Unless you mean getting friends who farm their gear together.

Knownase - Heavens Tear

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah, it isn't impossible to get. It's just that it takes long enough (for me) that I'm not sure if I still play the game after... six months? Of course I'm still striving for the "best" DD build. Giving up would be pointless.

In red: that's not the way to go imo. It has a name too, it's called "leeching". Unless you mean getting friends who farm their gear together.

Just basing it on what I see in WC practically every 30 mins.

"LF -int DDs for Nirvana, pm me."

Hardcore farmers have every 4.0+ int char they can get on their FL. lol....

Sunked - Lost City wrote: »

just normal ep + barb and some dd, its just going to be longer than 15 min, other idea is to roll -int class and get gear for ur main fish

Knownase was faster, but cmn nirvana is doable without -int gear

I totally agree, you don't need -int ppl to run Nirv.

Rawthorne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Knownase get your *** ingame and msg me so we can burn through the rest of your keysb:laugh I've got like 30 or so to use between today and tomorrowb:cry

I can Nirv later on............................maybe. b:avoid

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just basing it on what I see in WC practically every 30 mins.

"LF -int DDs for Nirvana, pm me."

Hardcore farmers have every 4.0+ int char they can get on their FL. lol....

Rawrgh had a post about this in this thread. People WC exactly like you said but then there's a vit barb, three mag DDs, cleric and that one 4.0 aps dude doing all the work.

Leeching at it's best.

_Bloody_Fox_ - Sanctuary

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

P2P 5 APS BM here b:avoid *force stealth*.

Fixed*

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Creating Nirv squads can be easy, or a major pain. Start by making friends, or at least knowing ppl, with -int gear, or just WC for a squad, and ask for 4.0+ -int BMs/Archer/Barbs/Sins.

Most -int ppl will be more than happy enough to join a Nirv squad, especially if they know the squad is good.

Be warned though, WC squads are known to fail horribly and can be pure hell. b:surrender

I would say don't specifically ask for 4.0+ or whatever people.

As a 4.0 aps barb myself, nothing is more annoying than seeing a world chat for a DD with 3.33/4.0/5.0 aps, joining the squad, and seeing a psychic/mage.

Akyeno - Heavens Tear

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Creating Nirv squads can be easy, or a major pain. Start by making friends, or at least knowing ppl, with -int gear, or just WC for a squad, and ask for 4.0+ -int BMs/Archer/Barbs/Sins.

Most -int ppl will be more than happy enough to join a Nirv squad, especially if they know the squad is good.

Be warned though, WC squads are known to fail horribly and can be pure hell. b:surrender

Thanks for the heads up there Knownb:thanks.

sleepcat

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Creating Nirv squads can be easy, or a major pain. Start by making friends, or at least knowing ppl, with -int gear, or just WC for a squad, and ask for 4.0+ -int BMs/Archer/Barbs/Sins.

Most -int ppl will be more than happy enough to join a Nirv squad, especially if they know the squad is good.

Jhalil - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm sorry, but if me refusing to take people whose damage output doesn't even come close to that of someone else that would be more than willing to come. Then I'll gladly be called selfish. Because I put enough effort in to the game that I now want to reap the benefits from it. But I guess that's just selfish, that's probably my problem. Isn't it?
But making a nirvana run last twice as long as it would've because of someone with a lower damage output is not selfish of that person at all. Nope, that's just normal because he gets to exploit other people's hard work

I can't help but notice that these two statements contradict each other.

Knownase - Heavens Tear

sleepcat wrote: »

I can't help but notice that these two statements contradict each other.

But Jhalil contradicts everything.

b:avoid

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

simple solution : give bosses bramble hood and have it function the PVE way not the PVP way b:chuckle