What the hell is up with APS...

Readen - Lost City

Nowadays everyone rely on APS. U don't see Wizzies or Archers with bow as DDs on FBs, BHs, Nirvana now. Everywhere are 5 APS classes. I guess it's okay for BMs and Sins, since they still use both skills and normal attacks, but 5 APS Barbs, Archers?! Oh, come on, even if it can be understood for Barbs (still hardly thou), then for Archer...what's the purpose of being an ARCHER and using fists for 5 APS? Archer is the character with bow (crossbow/slingshot), not meele weapon! Soon non-APS characters will be completely useless. It's just a matter of time to see 5 APS Psychics, Clerics and Wizards. I'm afraid of even thinking how much things can go worse after new expansion b:shocked

P.S. Can some forum mod fix my avatar, please? It still shows my former character - Assasin, even thou I deleted him and now I'm playing a Wiz.

Segreta - Sanctuary

I known,its sad,5,4,3 aps have completely unbalanced a relatively well-balanced game(Im talking about before Tideborn expansion).

Let's say it clear and simple:Any mage class today its not anymore a DD compared to those 5 aps guys,they're still good for PvP purpose off course,but for Nirvana/TT and in general end-game stuff even a +12 Wiz/Psy/(?)Veno its nothing compared a 5 aps dude(With decent weapon).

DD Mage Class:Fired

What about Nirvana & some TT bosses? random agro=Barb job pointless,5 ApS BM/Sin/whatever, *average* barb=Pointless

Barb:Fired

Arog - Dreamweaver

I agree,

Even though I could reach 3aps with my current equipment and claws I would never touch a claw or a fist. It means ppl dont take me to nirvana but more than all I still am an Archer.

Those wannabe BM archers should just go and play a real BM or sin instead of claiming to be "Archers".

This however wont change and will be screwed even more with the new expansion because who cares about class balance (and this game used to have a very good balance before), all the devs care about is money and the poor GMs have to feed us the **** the devs develop.

I really hoped that claws and fists would be BM only but I guess this rumour is already outdated (sadly). The only classes who should have 5 aps (if at all) are sins and BMs

You are right, no-aps DDs will soon be out of demand but it cant be changed no matter how often people complain.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

The thing is, most people seem to forget that 5 aps isn't cheap. If you are an "average" player who hypers from 80 to 100 but not too fast and doesn't CS at all or just a bit (merchants also fall under this category, average players aren't rich), you won't have 3.33 aps base. Getting TT90 gold wrists is easy, just like 6m-8m. FCC fists aren't that expensive either, 15m-20m. That puts your aps to 1.82 unsparked. Lunar cape is 40m atm, that's not cheap anymore. If you get it your aps would be 2 unsparked. 2x TT99 pieces are hard to get now that TT is harder again (still possible though). Lunar claws would be 60m and tome and Nirvana pants just too much for an average player.

You can't expect to be level 100 with TT99 green magic sword +3 and ask the squad why you didn't get invited if the worst geared player's weapon refine cost more than your equips. Instead, try to find some not-that-nicely geared magic DDs, clerics, barbs, even BMs/sins/archers without much aps. There are other people like you.

Okeano - Harshlands

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

The thing is, most people seem to forget that 5 aps isn't cheap. If you are an "average" player who hypers from 80 to 100 but not too fast and doesn't CS at all or just a bit (merchants also fall under this category, average players aren't rich), you won't have 3.33 aps base. Getting TT90 gold wrists is easy, just like 6m-8m. FCC fists aren't that expensive either, 15m-20m. That puts your aps to 1.82 unsparked. Lunar cape is 40m atm, that's not cheap anymore. If you get it your aps would be 2 unsparked. 2x TT99 pieces are hard to get now that TT is harder again (still possible though). Lunar claws would be 60m and tome and Nirvana pants just too much for an average player.

F2P 5 APS BM here b:avoid *force stealth*.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary

Personally 5.0 barbs are completely understandable. An endgame claw barb with sharded vit stones can easily hit a massive HP total and tank pretty much anything a full vit barb can. The only real disadvantage is for pulling cata's, and considering how ridiculously expensive it is to be a cata barb, that's not a huge disadvantage anyway. In exchange, the claw barb gets a massive DPS and better accuracy than a BM with Bloodbath. Basically going endgame claw barb just increases your versatility and potential, while also making the game a little less dull.

Claw archers, on the other hand, baffle me. Your DPS will never hit that of a 5.0 BM or sin due to lack of str. Your bow damage will also be weaker than that of a full dex Archer. Your tanking capability will be far lower than a BM or Barb due to lower HP and defence. And unlike a sin you don't have bloodpaint.

You can't expect to be level 100 with TT99 green magic sword +3 and ask the squad why you didn't get invited if the worst geared player's weapon refine cost more than your equips. Instead, try to find some not-that-nicely geared magic DDs, clerics, barbs, even BMs/sins/archers without much aps. There are other people like you.

Funny thing is very often those TT99 green weapon +3 players instead choose the lazy option and form their own squads, demanding 5.0 only players. The problem is, all the average refined players refuse to run instances with each other because they all see the other as being "too slow".

Mahngiel - Sanctuary

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Personally 5.0 barbs are completely understandable. An endgame claw barb with sharded vit stones can easily hit a massive HP total and tank pretty much anything a full vit barb can. The only real disadvantage is for pulling cata's, and considering how ridiculously expensive it is to be a cata barb, that's not a huge disadvantage anyway. In exchange, the claw barb gets a massive DPS and better accuracy than a BM with Bloodbath. Basically going endgame claw barb just increases your versatility and potential, while also making the game a little less dull.

This. Added the fact that it's nay impossible to maintain aggro while in tank form over high APS players. Barbs now roll Demon, and with BO and +chi BKI gets things rollin.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

F2P 5 APS BM here b:avoid *force stealth*.

You're not average

But definitely a good example how you can make money as a F2P player. Of course Roid, Warren and FD (Kitamura) are good moneymakers as well but like I said, that's not the average. If it was, I wouldn't mind being average. b:chuckle

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Claw archers, on the other hand, baffle me. Your DPS will never hit that of a 5.0 BM or sin due to lack of str. Your bow damage will also be weaker than that of a full dex Archer. Your tanking capability will be far lower than a BM or Barb due to lower HP and defence. And unlike a sin you don't have bloodpaint.

Yeah but you don't have to reroll, it's easier to hit 5.0 since you get the rank armors and most importantly, your DPS is good enough to get to 5.0 aps squads which is the thing here. Your points are valid though.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Funny thing is very often those TT99 green weapon +3 players instead choose the lazy option and form their own squads, demanding 5.0 only players. The problem is, all the average refined players refuse to run instances with each other because they all see the other as being "too slow".

"We need 5.0 aps players." *one joins, sees a barb, cleric and three magic DDs and leaves* "WTF"

Sunked - Lost City

people seams to not understand 5aps is not such a big deal, perma spark is, all what need to be done is to put 60 sec colldown on spark and after that:

1. skills still would be usable due to stacked chi (more cs for skill books)
2. dd gap between classes will be much lower (other classes will be usable)
3. 5aps still will be good to have
4. barbs should be able to tank

and (almost) everyone win

just a thought

_Nuriko_ - Lost City

60 second cooldown on spark wouldn't be cool at all :x I enjoy being relied on when i play my sin (level 90 1.67/2.22 int) Yeah im no 5aps but i can tank the first half of frost with a decent cleric because of the fact of blood paint and being able to spark every 15 seconds or so.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

I guess it's okay for BMs and Sins, since they still use both skills and normal attacks,

Archers can still use some skills with fists, so?
I dont have any bow skills on my sin, but due to similar builds, I can equip it & often do; whether it's for purging or taking out harpies in fcc, so on.

/Your DPS will never hit that of a 5.0 BM or sin due to lack of str.

I might not have str, but I have tons of crit & elemental fire dmg to sort of even it out.

Your bow damage will also be weaker than that of a full dex Archer.

You don't have to not be a pure in order to use claws... Unless you use fists like 100 that require more str.
For fcc gold fists or deicide you can still be pure build, maybe will need an extra str ring/or tome for deicides.

Your tanking capability will be far lower than a BM or Barb due to lower HP and defence. And unlike a sin you don't have bloodpaint.

Yes, but unlike a barb or bm it is cheaper for us to reach 5 APS due to rank armours. My HP aint that great, I haven't really invested much in it, I can tank a lot, not all ofcourse, b:chuckle but for those cases I just get my barb.

Those wannabe BM archers should just go and play a real BM or sin instead of claiming to be "Archers".

It's annoying how narrowminded some are. If you are one class you can't use any other weaps! I use variety of weaps on dif chars: fists, axes, bows, poles, w/e fits the situation.

I really hoped that claws and fists would be BM only but I guess this rumour is already outdated (sadly).

Then everyone would just run a bms/sins & sort of "keep" their other class mains for "pleasure" playing & log on to pick up bhs.... while farming with their 5 aps-es.

Sunked - Lost City

_Nuriko_ - Lost City wrote: »

60 second cooldown on spark wouldn't be cool at all :x I enjoy being relied on when i play my sin (level 90 1.67/2.22 int) Yeah im no 5aps but i can tank the first half of frost with a decent cleric because of the fact of blood paint and being able to spark every 15 seconds or so.

if u wanna tank roll barb ;p jk, im tanking (trying to >.>) on everything even on my squishi cleric ;p

u should be able to tank whole frost with decent cleric, and with cooldown on spark u could actually use some other (great) skills and amp every some time for example

Silest - Sanctuary

Arog - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Those wannabe BM archers should just go and play a real BM or sin instead of claiming to be "Archers".

Yeah thats how I feel too. Everyone wants to be an BM but wont role a bm lol.

Jhalil - Heavens Tear

4 APS BM/5 APS archer (ok, not yet. I lack 13 levels on archer) LF 4 APS+ Nirvana squad. No wizards, venos, psychics please.
If Sage sin with sage BP is provided, no cleric either. PM me.

*feeds the fire*

Quilue - Sanctuary

Archers have a cheaper path to 5.0. BMs might do more DPS at 5.0, but half the BMs I squad with are 4.0 because of the cost and I end up tanking those Nirvanas. Who the **** cares if I do less DPS than some endgame sin? Claws still provide the best DPS an archer can offer. No one else in my 4.0/5.0 squads are complaining, so who are you to talk?

Why not roll a BM? HMMMM maybe it's because I want to use this archer with this bow in TW have you thought about that? Maybe I'm farming with claws so I can have a better bow? Naw that would never make sense because I should just roll a 5.0 BM, spend an additional 400m+ or whatever the **** it takes, so that I can farm for my archer.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

It's become a melee PVE . . b:chuckle

F2P playing PWI plans :
Lv 0 Dedication
Lv 1 Patience
Lv 2 Friends
Lv 3 Save money (coins)
Lv 4 Only buy what needed and preparation for next lv
Lv 5 Walking & flying is better if you not in hurry + have patience
Lv 6 Find out what skills is better to lv up first to save money and coins
Lv 7 Learn how to play your class & what other class offer
Lv 8 Make alt when you need lots of low lv item (venomancer is good for these purpose)
Lv 9 Play the venomancer to gather and farm lots of things to sell
Lv 10 Find out the market season and what is the hot items you may also try buy sell gold
Lv 11 Eventually you can buy legendary pet hercules for the venomancer
Lv 12 After reaching good lv you can start farming instance
Lv 13 If you still had problems to buy hercules you can make another alt priest or barb for instance squad farming
Lv 14 With good amount of money your main now can have good gears at high lv
Lv 15 Make another alt these time you can chose between BM, Sin, Barb, or Archer (don't forget barb squad farming)
Lv 16 Make your new alt reach high lv and get it 5 aspd gears + good gears
Lv 17 You can start farm like crazy with your 5 aspd alt and lots QQ from nearby players
Lv 18 After all those works finally you can make your main char reach end game with uber equipments.
Lv 19 You might also ended up with lots cash free to use . .
Lv 20 Congrats

P2W playing PWI plans :
Lv 1 Money
Lv 2 Charge zen
Lv 3 Sell gold in game
Lv 4 Buy packs
Lv 5 Fruit, Oracle, Hyper, in game Lv up service
Lv 6 Congrats

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

5.0 archers do very similar damage to 5.0 BM. The difference is so small it is pointless to reroll a 5.0 BM for the purpose of doing more damage.

The only reason for a 5.0 archer to reroll is to make a 5.0 dagger sin.

But yeah 5.0 archers don't really like using claws but they do it for the coins. We'd much rather have that DPS on bows.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Readen - Lost City wrote: »

5 APS Barbs

and hence a level 100 7.1k unbuffed hp sage barb welding ff gold fist wearing an unrefined bracer of bloodmoon is born.

Okeano - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

We'd much rather have that DPS on bows.

b:shockedb:cry nty b:surrender.

Readen - Lost City

I wasn't saying that APS itself is bad. Bad is what it came to with it - everyone go for it, Barbs have to go for it too to remain able to tank, Archers aren't Archers anymore to keep up with DPS, magic classes are left on cold ice... It's kinda like Jones Blessing - idea itself isn't bad - bad is what happened because of that.

Tojop - Dreamweaver

Sigh, another one of these threads....anyhoo, I think the fix is pretty simple. Give caster classes stronger spells that cost more mana. I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I'm sure they're more or less the same as they have been for the past 10-odd months. Give wizards/clerics/psychics (and venos? discuss) more skills that hit way harder. Done and done.

Eyeofthtiger - Sanctuary

i dont see the point of this thread tbh. If you're jealous of all 5.0 melee's / archer why dont u just roll this class? you make a 5 aps character because u want fast money to fast increase ur gears / armors. thats pretty much it.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

LOL all you people whining about claw archers are so narrow minded and ignorant.

First of all do you honestly think archers WANT to invest in an extra lunar/frost weapon in addition to their bow just because they want to get into runs? Is it really that much of a sin to make your preferred character wanted for just....playing the game? "Archers should only use bows and claw archers are BM wannabees" is an extremely narrow minded statement. Most games allow archers and rangers to use melee weapons, except without the skills and damage available to real blade-wielding classes. It's not all that unusual. In fact PW is already very limiting in that respect because we can't use daggers, which is the "natural" melee weapon for archers, and instead have to get extra strength for the claws/fist. And to this point, might I mention that it's STUPID to tell people to reroll another class because they want to farm things. That's like saying "Oh, if you want to TW, roll a wizard, **** your BM."

And also, saying archers do less damage with claws as a reason for them not to go claws is stupid. All I can say to that is.."So what?" I still pull aggro from BMs more than I'd like, heck I'd PREFER BMs do more damage so I don't have to tank with my squishy aps gear. As for going pure dex, well, instead of having to buy a Scroll of Tome or three Script of Fates, we can buy a +15 str tome and wear strength rings while having a pure dex build. It's not that difficult to figure out *taps your skulls.*

NonameWiz - Sanctuary

This game should be renamed to 5aps world b:chuckle
5aps bm/sin is good for pvp/pve, 5aps archer is good for pve too (understandable), other than that, they're just craps ijs b:surrender

Rainesierr - Lost City

Ok, i won't lie- i do feel like it's alot harder to get into squads what with everyone requesting sins/fist bms only. and to that end, i have a lvl 70 sin, and counting (he only has 1.5k rep tho ) But to those of you who are "average players"? Fine. Im an average player too, just join a guild of like-minded people. I know i've been on guild runs where we took a 7x archer on 3-1, we took a 6x barb into frost, and we're starting to do nirvana runs with no aps dds. God forbid. I'm not happy about 5aps either, but learn to live with it. Granted, our first few nirvana runs are going to be mega fail, cause none of us have been there before, but our first frost runs back in the day weren't very pretty either. At the very least you get to have fun with friends, right?

Knownase - Heavens Tear

I got sick of being refused Nirvana runs, so I decided to become a 4.0 Claw Barb.


Raking money in ever since, my only regret, I'm basically not a Barb anymore. rofl

ClericMD - Lost City

Noob question what APS means? I dont found it in the abreviature treath.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

ClericMD - Lost City wrote: »

Noob question what APS means? I dont found it in the abreviature treath.

Attacks per second.

Mosz - Heavens Tear

any great archer youd want to squad already has all gear for 5.0 except the claw/fist, so for 1 piece of gear(and VERY CHEAP str rings if so prefered) they can 3-5x the DPS they have with bow
also FF fist archer+10 will out dps +10 lunar claw BM

Conavar - Heavens Tear

Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Give wizards/clerics/psychics (and venos? discuss) more skills that hit way harder. Done and done.

Would unbalance PvP unless they gave Mag classes a bigger Dmg reduction and Im sure they wouldnt like that

But one sensible solution would be making Bm's/sins/barbs and archers normal attacks not gain chi. Then swapping the non sparks skills so instead of costing chi gained the class chi.

Want to gain chi to triple spark or cast an ulti ? You have to use your class skills to do so.

Mag classes chi gain/chi cost per skill would stay the same as now.


One thing I find amusing though is when a Wiz/cleric/phys etc starts a squad they only want APS players in it .. Hey what happened to the Mag Class Workers Union

Woneo - Harshlands

Im a sage non cs-ing sin.
How do you think I feel?b:cry... In pve that is