Sage or Demon?

Pearlwood - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

The main advantage of demon is the -channeling (demon spark/wellspring quaff/pyro/d.pyro/glacial snare). Other benefits include an extra 3% crit (demon masteries.. but still debatable whether it is 1 or 3% extra crit with all 3), and slightly better control skills (stone rain, pitfall, hailstorm, emberstorm).

The main advantage of sage is chi gaining (chi skill, pyro, distance shrink, BT, MS) and sage BIDS (50% chance to increase crit by 30% for 10 secs).

I really think that if you are not focusing on -channeling, you'd be better off as sage, but thats just my opinion. TW is all about dropping ultis (requires alot of chi) which is why sage is generally thought of as better for TW. I personally think sage is just as good if not better than demon for pvp, but maybe that's because 90% of the demon mages I find don't have much -channeling.. so they don't really benefit from their cultivation as much as they could be.

TW is dying because the reward got nerfed from 10mil coins/territory per week to 150 mirages/territory per week. It's just not worth going anymore, and from what I hear.. this has been reflecting the number, length, and intensity of the TW's since the change.

That was the kind of reply I was looking for. TY

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Demon distance shrink really useful in Jungle Ruins b:laugh

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

just switched cultivation from sage to demon.
b:surrenderi really miss master li b:cry

Adroit - Lost City

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

just switched cultivation from sage to demon.
b:surrenderi really miss master li b:cry

really?
How you liking it? (i.e. to you regret it?)

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

really?
How you liking it? (i.e. to you regret it?)

atm, I kinda am.

I can't really comment because I'm not at the same point skill wise as when i was sage.

But currently with the 3 basic skills, hell spark and mo zun, I really am missing master li and all the chi skills.

Surprisingly, I'm not missing BIDS too much.

DPS is also pretty nice I guess...(i got 15% channeling atm and planning on having 30% after finishing gear (36% if i get CV wand).

I'm enjoying demon divine pyrogram. With hell spark, it channels quite nicely.

Currently, waiting for someone to pay me back 70mil so I can make the 92 books.

And hopefully I will find some cheap hell books in AH.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Welcome to the demon club Miz. b:cute

Pearlwood - Lost City

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

atm, I kinda am.

I can't really comment because I'm not at the same point skill wise as when i was sage.

But currently with the 3 basic skills, hell spark and mo zun, I really am missing master li and all the chi skills.

Surprisingly, I'm not missing BIDS too much.

DPS is also pretty nice I guess...(i got 15% channeling atm and planning on having 30% after finishing gear (36% if i get CV wand).

I'm enjoying demon divine pyrogram. With hell spark, it channels quite nicely.

Currently, waiting for someone to pay me back 70mil so I can make the 92 books.

And hopefully I will find some cheap hell books in AH.

This is Interesting, Miz. I don't suppose you can go back to sage if you want. ? Did the nerf on TW cause u to change to demon, or just because..? Lastly, would Cloud Eruption be worth a genie skill slot for a sage (a decent 5 slot genie)? Obviously, it's almost mandatory for demon. But, I'm toying with the idea of going sage with CE to see how its works. The idea of almost unlimited chi is tantalizing since I already have a CE genie.

Oh, does anybody know of a good genie skill that reduces channelling time that is available to wizards? (I'll look myself...but I'm asking if anybody knows from experience) This could seal going sage for me. But, it's a tough, tough choice.....NO DOUBT.

Adroit - Lost City

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Interesting. I don't suppose you can go back to sage if you want. ? Did the nerf on TW cause u to change to demon, or just because..? Lastly, would Cloud Eruption be worth a skill slot for a sage? Obviously, it's almost mandatory for demon.

Maybe for a pve genie, or maybe for TW as ideally all you are doing is running around dropping ultis. For world pvp though, chi building is fine with what you already have and you really don't drop ultis as often (people aren't grouped up or multi faction pvp you don't want to aoe allied factions). There are a number of better choices for that skill slot imo.

edit: There is no genie skill to reduce channeling that wizards can use

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

This is Interesting, Miz. I don't suppose you can go back to sage if you want. ? Did the nerf on TW cause u to change to demon, or just because..? Lastly, would Cloud Eruption be worth a genie skill slot for a sage (a decent 5 slot genie)? Obviously, it's almost mandatory for demon. But, I'm toying with the idea of going sage with CE to see how its works. The idea of almost unlimited chi is tantalizing since I already have a CE genie.

Oh, does anybody know of a good genie skill that reduces channelling time that is available to wizards? (I'll look myself...but I'm asking if anybody knows from experience) This could seal going sage for me. But, it's a tough, tough choice.....NO DOUBT.

I went demon for a few reasons:
1. TW was dead, I was only enjoying my wizard in TW. Why not PK? Because of point two (Also, when i went sage, TW was my main focal point).

2. Being sage vs cash shoppers mean most of my fights needed to end with an ulti. I was hoping being demon would allow me to use other skills (like sandstorm) and the control skills to hold opponents in place and whittle down their HP.

3. I was becoming too chi dependant. It got to the point where I always needed sparks. Going demon was me quitting cold turkey.

4. Channeling. Everything is about hitting faster. Being sage, you can be channeling based but demon gets ahead.

Sage + CE = epic
Demon + CE = wtf i need more chi??????
granted I dont have demon frostblade yet

Relentless courage reduces channel by an insignificant amount

And my conclusion,

After playing around in nirvana/FC/OHT daily. Demon gush sucks bawls compared to sage water mastery and sage gush. =\

And, ya i can switch back to sage if i want. Probably wont do that until i get something like +10 8jun or whatever.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Maybe for a pve genie, or maybe for TW as ideally all you are doing is running around dropping ultis. For world pvp though, chi building is fine with what you already have and you really don't drop ultis as often (people aren't grouped up or multi faction pvp you don't want to aoe allied factions). There are a number of better choices for that skill slot imo.

edit: There is no genie skill to reduce channeling that wizards can use

I hated going to Dreamweavers main PK spot and having to use an ulti to kill someone then end up killing 10+ other people then getting ganked by 11 people when i step out of SZ.
EDIT: and the demon fairy matches my fash

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Demon gush sucks bawls compared to sage water mastery and sage gush. =\

True but it gets 3% more crit than sage gush. AND YES IT STACKS. CLERIC DEMON MASTERY GIVES 2%, because they only have one (and can't stack), and sage mastery is same as for wiz -- why would demon clerics have better mastery than demon wizards when sage clerics don't have better than sage wizards...

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Just few words. On P.server with 52 + demon mastries(55%) critics I figure out, that I DONT'T have 55% critics. I already wrote this.
BUT more important is, that critics significantly going down in PvP. Is strange but it's true. Even with this high amount of critics I critics in PvP even more lesser than in PVE and in PVE I don't have 55% for sure.

Pearlwood - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

True but it gets 3% more crit than sage gush. AND YES IT STACKS. CLERIC DEMON MASTERY GIVES 2%, because they only have one (and can't stack), and sage mastery is same as for wiz -- why would demon clerics have better mastery than demon wizards when sage clerics don't have better than sage wizards...

Hey Borsuc, you've said this before, "why would demon clerics have better mastery than demon wizards when sage clerics don't have better than sage?" Is this a rhetorical question u pose, or an affirmative observation? Can u explain why you're saying this?

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Yes it was meant to be rhetorical if anyone designing this game had the least bit of idea, which I have to admit, they have at least a tiny bit.

Here's in detail:

Demons
Cleric Metal Mastery = 2% crit increase

Wizard Fire Mastery = 1% crit increase
Wizard Water Mastery = 1% crit increase
Wizard Earth Mastery = 1% crit increase

Now, some people say that they don't stack -- aka, fire mastery only has 1% crit for fire spells, water for water spells, etc... but that makes no sense right? Seeing as that would make the cleric mastery stronger (and the only reason it is, it's because they have only one mastery and can't stack...)

Why would clerics get 2% while we get 1%? Because they can't stack (only have one mastery) while we can (and get 3%).

What I said about sage is, maybe people think "probably clerics have better masteries", but the sage versions are identical (where they apply to specific element, i.e not stack):

Sages
Cleric Metal Mastery = 5% extra damage for metal attacks

Wizard Fire Mastery = 5% extra damage for fire attacks
Wizard Water Mastery = 5% extra damage for water attacks
Wizard Earth Mastery = 5% extra damage for earth attacks

So it's identical.

So I posed the question for people who say demon masteries don't stack -- when the least bit of competency on the dev's part would assume that they do. :P

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

... DEMON ...

b:sad


when the reset-items were implemented first, i was thinking bout reseting to sage, the hihg costs made me drop that idea

now i rather aim for a token-made-10xSkills pack when i ever get as many coins/token

sandstorm and stone-barrier waiting



...
i only have 12% channeling ( http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=a420a996fe59aeb8 )
with demon spark 37%, but its breaking the gusshpyrogushpyrogush
is it because of cooldown? or is it my laag-.-?

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

b:sad


when the reset-items were implemented first, i was thinking bout reseting to sage, the hihg costs made me drop that idea

now i rather aim for a token-made-10xSkills pack when i ever get as many coins/token

sandstorm and stone-barrier waiting



...
i only have 12% channeling ( http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=a420a996fe59aeb8 )
with demon spark 37%, but its breaking the gusshpyrogushpyrogush
is it because of cooldown? or is it my laag-.-?

cooldown. I break gushpyrogushpryo at 34%

prof

does noone even know the -chi skill even exist? so underrated! that skill has a 30s cooldown, as compared to the 60s cooldown of the +chi holy skill. ever used it on a wr? absolutely devastating. especially in war, where a wr needs it to stun constantly.

also very effective on mg, and wb. no more ulti's for the mages and no tortlen for the wb. it's a shame nobody counts it as a plus. I use it all the time.

dark seal has a shorter cooldown, which may not seem like a lot from reading the description, but try using it in pk lol it's so noticeable. when 1v1ing holy mages, I've often been told my seal is 'overpowered', because it always cools down early, and stops them from getting any chance at killing me.

I don't count holy seal as an advantage outside of gv(which is pve, and I can't remember the pwi term for gv).

the +mp skill(again, don't know pwi name) is definitely a bonus for dark. -20% chant instantly is so.. useful. maybe not in pve, but pvp-wise this skill is amazing lol and even though it consumes 1 fury, you easily get that back+more by time the effect ends.

and, on the other hand, holy version of this skill is also useful. imo, not as useful, but still useful. +100% matk, when single fury gives 150% for the same price, seems kinda lame. when using my friends holy mg, if I ever had something I couldn't kill, I'd use sutra -> +fury skill -> 2nd fury. absolutely devastating. especially if I just got crit bonus from 'bids'(by glitching it, not using it. saves fury).

briefly, imo(<-read that!!111 my OPINION)

blink skill is better for holy, in some circumstances(ie: running away). and dark is better for chasing(further jump distance). equal.

holy phoenix ****. shorter cooldowns

holy rock fall **** phoenix and then you.
dark rock fall's stun is unreliable. though nice when it does work, definitely not a culti-changing skill.

dark stone barrier > holy. I don't care how small you say the reduction difference is, more defense is more defense.

dark pyrogram = holy. my reasoning is obvious: lower chant on a fairly weak skill, making it a better filler. the low chance for +chi from the holy version is as I said it is, low. but still useful.

dark gush > holy. shut up about the passives, you shouldn't brag about 2 skills being better than 1.

dark mountain seize is ****ING AWESOME. I love catching runners with that skill(extended atk distance).

dark blazing/snare > holy. if you're the level to learn these, you should have undine already.

dark hailstorm/earth dot(idk name) > holy. higher chance to paralyze on low damage skills.

passives are equal. shut up, idc, 3% crit = 5% damage. crits hurt more and dark hits them more often. holy crits less but does more total damage per hit. EQUAL.

I do agree that holy bids > dark, but dark isn't that much worse. using without any fury is an amazing ability and I love it when it ticks. I count this similar to rock fall - though it's nice, it's a low chance, making holy version better.

dark sandstorm > holy. read gush for reason.

dark emberstorm is the coolest ****ing skill, I swear. I give up about 500 hp, hit ~1k dmg(on other int), and it can stun half of the time. literally.

zhen I only see the holy version useful for tw, whereas if you learn it, you better have spent $30k on your mg(Eheeb:shutup), cos you wont survive gv anymore.

all my ea's and wr's my dark frostblade. it may not seem like a lot, but dealing both physical and magic damage is amazing against anything.

heal is equal.

the other barriers(water, fire) who cares. i'd only say the fire version is better, because I use the fire barrier when I 1v1 other mages. if you don't, feel free to ask why.

who uses the fire dot for anything other than a last quick hit? equal.

blade tempest.. idk. it's cool using it on a group and watching it cancel a bunch of people's skills. but using half fury is more useful.



did i miss anything? i've been saying these things for awhile now, opinion feels the same as before.

this is coming from someone with a 102 dark mg with -66% cast, and a 101 rank 8 +12 holy mg. i've used every skill in every possible situation i think, for both culti.

flame away, holy ****'s b:bye

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

prof wrote: »

does noone even know the -chi skill even exist? so underrated! that skill has a 30s cooldown, as compared to the 60s cooldown of the +chi holy skill. ever used it on a wr? absolutely devastating. especially in war, where a wr needs it to stun constantly.

also very effective on mg, and wb. no more ulti's for the mages and no tortlen for the wb. it's a shame nobody counts it as a plus. I use it all the time.

dark seal has a shorter cooldown, which may not seem like a lot from reading the description, but try using it in pk lol it's so noticeable. when 1v1ing holy mages, I've often been told my seal is 'overpowered', because it always cools down early, and stops them from getting any chance at killing me.

I don't count holy seal as an advantage outside of gv(which is pve, and I can't remember the pwi term for gv).

the +mp skill(again, don't know pwi name) is definitely a bonus for dark. -20% chant instantly is so.. useful. maybe not in pve, but pvp-wise this skill is amazing lol and even though it consumes 1 fury, you easily get that back+more by time the effect ends.

and, on the other hand, holy version of this skill is also useful. imo, not as useful, but still useful. +100% matk, when single fury gives 150% for the same price, seems kinda lame. when using my friends holy mg, if I ever had something I couldn't kill, I'd use sutra -> +fury skill -> 2nd fury. absolutely devastating. especially if I just got crit bonus from 'bids'(by glitching it, not using it. saves fury).

briefly, imo(<-read that!!111 my OPINION)

blink skill is better for holy, in some circumstances(ie: running away). and dark is better for chasing(further jump distance). equal.

holy phoenix ****. shorter cooldowns

holy rock fall **** phoenix and then you.
dark rock fall's stun is unreliable. though nice when it does work, definitely not a culti-changing skill.

dark stone barrier > holy. I don't care how small you say the reduction difference is, more defense is more defense.

dark pyrogram = holy. my reasoning is obvious: lower chant on a fairly weak skill, making it a better filler. the low chance for +chi from the holy version is as I said it is, low. but still useful.

dark gush > holy. shut up about the passives, you shouldn't brag about 2 skills being better than 1.

dark mountain seize is ****ING AWESOME. I love catching runners with that skill(extended atk distance).

dark blazing/snare > holy. if you're the level to learn these, you should have undine already.

dark hailstorm/earth dot(idk name) > holy. higher chance to paralyze on low damage skills.

passives are equal. shut up, idc, 3% crit = 5% damage. crits hurt more and dark hits them more often. holy crits less but does more total damage per hit. EQUAL.

I do agree that holy bids > dark, but dark isn't that much worse. using without any fury is an amazing ability and I love it when it ticks. I count this similar to rock fall - though it's nice, it's a low chance, making holy version better.

dark sandstorm > holy. read gush for reason.

dark emberstorm is the coolest ****ing skill, I swear. I give up about 500 hp, hit ~1k dmg(on other int), and it can stun half of the time. literally.

zhen I only see the holy version useful for tw, whereas if you learn it, you better have spent $30k on your mg(Eheeb:shutup), cos you wont survive gv anymore.

all my ea's and wr's my dark frostblade. it may not seem like a lot, but dealing both physical and magic damage is amazing against anything.

heal is equal.

the other barriers(water, fire) who cares. i'd only say the fire version is better, because I use the fire barrier when I 1v1 other mages. if you don't, feel free to ask why.

who uses the fire dot for anything other than a last quick hit? equal.

blade tempest.. idk. it's cool using it on a group and watching it cancel a bunch of people's skills. but using half fury is more useful.



did i miss anything? i've been saying these things for awhile now, opinion feels the same as before.

this is coming from someone with a 102 dark mg with -66% cast, and a 101 rank 8 +12 holy mg. i've used every skill in every possible situation i think, for both culti.

flame away, holy ****'s b:bye

Actually, I found the -chi skill very useful in PvP when I had a moment to get it off. Annoyed the hell outta everyone b:chuckle and it does make longer fights a bit easier when you are gaining chi and your opponent isnt xD

Holy seal imo is really great for TW. Maybe its just my server, but when we got WBs in our base with catas the WRs stay near the WBs to stun and all that other ****. Makes Holy seal really effective. Now I don't have dark seal yet, so I can't comment.

I loved holy wellspring (+mp skill). Once again, I don't have dark yet. Still buying pages for the book clip.

I never had holy blink, but I'm not too impressed by dark blink (especially since it makes my friend fall off the cliff in fb99b:laugh) but I can see how it would be useful in making quick escapes or getting in front of an archer from max range.

for stone barrier, i say its a tossup because if you have decent pdef, it really shouldn't matter =\

I have dark blazing pyrogram and I use it more often now because its not such a pain in the *** to channel (amazing how much .5 affects a skill)

And i still find holy gush + holy water mastery better than dark gush. Its a passive skill. You have it, you might as well use it?

Pearlwood - Lost City

prof wrote: »

does noone even know the -chi skill even exist? so underrated! that skill has a 30s cooldown, as compared to the 60s cooldown of the +chi holy skill. ever used it on a wr? absolutely devastating. especially in war, where a wr needs it to stun constantly.


AGREED: But that doesn't even begin to counter the advantages of sage chi, and you know it.


also very effective on mg, and wb. no more ulti's for the mages and no tortlen for the wb. it's a shame nobody counts it as a plus. I use it all the time.


AGREED: But there are effective counters to a medium chi drain..ie..a good shot of CE.


dark seal has a shorter cooldown, which may not seem like a lot from reading the description, but try using it in pk lol it's so noticeable. when 1v1ing holy mages, I've often been told my seal is 'overpowered', because it always cools down early, and stops them from getting any chance at killing me.

I don't count holy seal as an advantage outside of gv(which is pve, and I can't remember the pwi term for gv).


AGREED in theory. In any event, the aoe of sage FOW makes this skill an even trade for different reasons. And, sage FOW rules in TW.


the +mp skill(again, don't know pwi name) is definitely a bonus for dark. -20% chant instantly is so.. useful. maybe not in pve, but pvp-wise this skill is amazing lol and even though it consumes 1 fury, you easily get that back+more by time the effect ends.

and, on the other hand, holy version of this skill is also useful. imo, not as useful, but still useful. +100% matk, when single fury gives 150% for the same price, seems kinda lame. when using my friends holy mg, if I ever had something I couldn't kill, I'd use sutra -> +fury skill -> 2nd fury. absolutely devastating. especially if I just got crit bonus from 'bids'(by glitching it, not using it. saves fury).


NO RESPONSE NECESSARY.


briefly, imo(<-read that!!111 my OPINION)

blink skill is better for holy, in some circumstances(ie: running away). and dark is better for chasing(further jump distance). equal.


SAGE BLINK is better in all circumstances...lol.


holy phoenix ****. shorter cooldowns


AGREED.


holy rock fall **** phoenix and then you.
dark rock fall's stun is unreliable. though nice when it does work, definitely not a culti-changing skill.


AGREED.


dark stone barrier > holy. I don't care how small you say the reduction difference is, more defense is more defense.


AGREED.


dark pyrogram = holy. my reasoning is obvious: lower chant on a fairly weak skill, making it a better filler. the low chance for +chi from the holy version is as I said it is, low. but still useful.


DISAGREE. Pyro is a weak hitter but its quick. Sage has a chance to get chi from it. Therefore sage pyro is better. IMO To be honest, if I were the designer I would have made the pyro benefits reversed for demon/sage.


dark gush > holy. shut up about the passives, you shouldn't brag about 2 skills being better than 1.


DEBATABLE. I would not stick my neck out with the certainty that you have with this assertion if I were you.


dark mountain seize is ****ING AWESOME. I love catching runners with that skill(extended atk distance).


AGREED.


dark blazing/snare > holy. if you're the level to learn these, you should have undine already.

dark hailstorm/earth dot(idk name) > holy. higher chance to paralyze on low damage skills.


MAYBE, but all in all this is just a very small consideration.


passives are equal. shut up, idc, 3% crit = 5% damage. crits hurt more and dark hits them more often. holy crits less but does more total damage per hit. EQUAL.


DEBATABLE. Sage doesn't have to hit a crit to get its increase. Demon does. And, if sage hits crit, then it's even better...lol. (That's what crit gear is for) Increased demon -channelling may make up for it..but do you have to invest in expensive channelling gear to do it?... it's a close call [and this is assuming demon crit is in fact enhanced 3% and not 1%].


I do agree that holy bids > dark, but dark isn't that much worse. using without any fury is an amazing ability and I love it when it ticks. I count this similar to rock fall - though it's nice, it's a low chance, making holy version better.


AGREED.


dark sandstorm > holy. read gush for reason.


SEE response to gush.


dark emberstorm is the coolest ****ing skill, I swear. I give up about 500 hp, hit ~1k dmg(on other int), and it can stun half of the time. literally.


WHY invest in this skill at all? I don't see the point. Can you explain yourself on this? You're talking about using emberstorm in pk? ? ? If so...your point is not well taken.


zhen I only see the holy version useful for tw, whereas if you learn it, you better have spent $30k on your mg(Eheeb:shutup), cos you wont survive gv anymore.

all my ea's and wr's my dark frostblade. it may not seem like a lot, but dealing both physical and magic damage is amazing against anything.

heal is equal.

the other barriers(water, fire) who cares. i'd only say the fire version is better, because I use the fire barrier when I 1v1 other mages. if you don't, feel free to ask why.

who uses the fire dot for anything other than a last quick hit? equal.

blade tempest.. idk. it's cool using it on a group and watching it cancel a bunch of people's skills. but using half fury is more useful.

did i miss anything? i've been saying these things for awhile now, opinion feels the same as before.

this is coming from someone with a 102 dark mg with -66% cast, and a 101 rank 8 +12 holy mg. i've used every skill in every possible situation i think, for both culti.

flame away, holy ****'s b:bye

You made some good points, and some not so good points. Your best point was with demon FOW you could frustrate an evenly matched sage in a duel. That's a fairly rare match-up though. I guess, if you look at it from purely a pk perspective, then the question is: have you come up with a sure way to defeat an evenly matched assassin? lol Since, I'm going sage, I'll work on it and let you know.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

*flamesheild*

much as it saddens me to miss out on the sexyness of the sage ultis my wizzies going to end up demonb:surrender

b:dirty control skills

Pearlwood - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yes it was meant to be rhetorical if anyone designing this game had the least bit of idea, which I have to admit, they have at least a tiny bit.

Here's in detail:

Demons
Cleric Metal Mastery = 2% crit increase

Wizard Fire Mastery = 1% crit increase
Wizard Water Mastery = 1% crit increase
Wizard Earth Mastery = 1% crit increase

Now, some people say that they don't stack -- aka, fire mastery only has 1% crit for fire spells, water for water spells, etc... but that makes no sense right? Seeing as that would make the cleric mastery stronger (and the only reason it is, it's because they have only one mastery and can't stack...)

Why would clerics get 2% while we get 1%? Because they can't stack (only have one mastery) while we can (and get 3%).

What I said about sage is, maybe people think "probably clerics have better masteries", but the sage versions are identical (where they apply to specific element, i.e not stack):

Sages
Cleric Metal Mastery = 5% extra damage for metal attacks

Wizard Fire Mastery = 5% extra damage for fire attacks
Wizard Water Mastery = 5% extra damage for water attacks
Wizard Earth Mastery = 5% extra damage for earth attacks

So it's identical.

So I posed the question for people who say demon masteries don't stack -- when the least bit of competency on the dev's part would assume that they do. :P

I hate to say this, but according to your own theory Sage masteries would also stack...to 15%. lol

prof

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

You made some good points, and some not so good points. Your best point was with demon FOW you could frustrate an evenly matched sage in a duel. That's a fairly rare match-up though. I guess, if you look at it from purely a pk perspective, then the question is: have you come up with a sure way to defeat an evenly matched assassin? lol Since, I'm going sage, I'll work on it and let you know.

from what I've learned about them: they're archers with fist(lol, old farm-build made official). but they have the patk of a wr with over 600 str, hit 5/s, perma stun/seal/sleep, turn invisible or w/e, how broken. played correctly, I'd say that class is damn near invincible 1v1. this is, however, pwi. good luck finding people who know how.

undine > seal > sutra > divine > seize > sandstorm > snare

use to kill .. just about anything if it didn't have over 12k mdef and 10k hp(if undine ticks, I've killed almost everything with this combo)

but that's pk, obviously you wouldn't want to waste that much fury in tw. my suggestion: scream in gc there's an assassin, say AA constantly while running in circles, and hope he doesn't notice you.
b:bye

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

I hate to say this, but according to your own theory Sage masteries would also stack...to 15%. lol

how? holy mage passives give 5% each element, not stacked together. he never said the holy mage passives stacked, either. priest only have one element, and they get a 5% increase to it. unless I missed something else, and pwi added a heal passive.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

prof wrote: »

from what I've learned about them: they're archers with fist(lol, old farm-build made official). but they have the patk of a wr with over 600 str, hit 5/s, perma stun/seal/sleep, turn invisible or w/e, how broken. played correctly, I'd say that class is damn near invincible 1v1. this is, however, pwi. good luck finding people who know how.

undine > seal > sutra > divine > seize > sandstorm > snare

use to kill .. just about anything if it didn't have over 12k mdef and 10k hp(if undine ticks, I've killed almost everything with this combo)

but that's pk, obviously you wouldn't want to waste that much fury in tw. my suggestion: scream in gc there's an assassin, say AA constantly while running in circles, and hope he doesn't notice you.
b:bye



how? holy mage passives give 5% each element, not stacked together. he never said the holy mage passives stacked, either. priest only have one element, and they get a 5% increase to it. unless I missed something else, and pwi added a heal passive.

Assassins have a skill that has a 25% chance to make your attack do 1 damage(regardless if its phys or magic) and a skill that has a 50% chance to resist stuns and seals

prof

lol, give me a reason to be anything other than an assassin?

in myen eveybody eventually rerolls to a wr, because endgame they have too much mdef to be solo'd by any int class - excluding a good wf - they have hp that's similar to your tanks, have amazing attack rate, glitches make them overpowered in 1v1s, and any wr who's actually played their class through should know how to stunlock.

the only reason to be anything else, honestly, is if you're sick of runners and want a ranged class to deal with them.

is there any downside to assassin's?

Adroit - Lost City

prof wrote: »

lol, give me a reason to be anything other than an assassin?

in myen eveybody eventually rerolls to a wr, because endgame they have too much mdef to be solo'd by any int class - excluding a good wf - they have hp that's similar to your tanks, have amazing attack rate, glitches make them overpowered in 1v1s, and any wr who's actually played their class through should know how to stunlock.

the only reason to be anything else, honestly, is if you're sick of runners and want a ranged class to deal with them.

is there any downside to assassin's?

The only things a sin doesn't have is spammable aoes or magic atks. Basically a sin has EVERYTHING else. From highest dps in game (and high dph), best stun lock in game (includes 2 stuns, seal, sleep, 9sec immoblizie.. nearly all of them with relatively short cooldowns ~30secs), stealth, anti death skill, 25% chance to resist skills (even magic) or 50% chance to resist "negative status effects" (which includes anything from stuns/seals/sleeps to even debuffs like undine or spark/extreme poison/bm dragons), infinite chi, and two teleport skills. If you are interested in 1v1's, there is really no other choice. If pwe hadn't ruined the game I probably would have made a sin, but I'm just not going to spend the time/money lvling and gearing up a new character at this point in the game. Kinda planning on selling off everything that I don't have equipped to fund my rpk'ing.. when I run out of $$ I'll likely just quit.

Pearlwood - Lost City

prof wrote: »

lol, give me a reason to be anything other than an assassin?

in myen eveybody eventually rerolls to a wr, because endgame they have too much mdef to be solo'd by any int class - excluding a good wf - they have hp that's similar to your tanks, have amazing attack rate, glitches make them overpowered in 1v1s, and any wr who's actually played their class through should know how to stunlock.

the only reason to be anything else, honestly, is if you're sick of runners and want a ranged class to deal with them.

is there any downside to assassin's?

Yes there is, but it's not technical. In my experience, the assassins are too squishy to tank bosses, and therefore need something to do in dungeon squads. This usually translates into being low man on the totem pole, which is something they consider insulting because of how dominant they are on the outside. Thus, alot of assassins have problems levelling because while their presence in a squad is tolerated, it's not really needed. And, dungeon PVE is how the real levelling occurs. I don't know how I could put it more succinctly than that.

As far as PK, assassins are very difficult to deal with. I suppose a surprise seal/stun/sleep followed by a charm chop and then an ult is the combo i'd try. For me, it only works when working with a partner. Solo is almost unmanageable. But, now that I'm sage I've got some new tricks up my sleeve. We'll see.

But, I like your trick of leading with undine to seal to sutra.... Probably need a genie skill in there for the defense when you come out of sutra...maybe absolute domain or fortify.

Pearlwood - Lost City

prof wrote: »

how? holy mage passives give 5% each element, not stacked together. he never said the holy mage passives stacked, either. priest only have one element, and they get a 5% increase to it. unless I missed something else, and pwi added a heal passive.

I was pointing out what happens if one applies his logic the other way. It's a fair assumption that sage passives don't stack, but he wants us to make the assumption that demon passives do.

Adroit - Lost City

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Yes there is, but it's not technical. In my experience, the assassins are too squishy to tank bosses, and therefore need something to do in dungeon squads. This usually translates into being low man on the totem pole, which is something they consider insulting because of how dominant they are on the outside. Thus, alot of assassins have problems levelling because while their presence in a squad is tolerated, it's not really needed. And, dungeon PVE is how the real levelling occurs. I don't know how I could put it more succinctly than that.

As far as PK, assassins are very difficult to deal with. I suppose a surprise seal/stun/sleep followed by a charm chop and then an ult is the combo i'd try. For me, it only works when working with a partner. Solo is almost unmanageable. But, now that I'm sage I've got some new tricks up my sleeve. We'll see.

But, I like your trick of leading with undine to seal to sutra.... Probably need a genie skill in there for the defense when you come out of sutra...maybe absolute domain or fortify.

I've had a very different experience.. they are wanted in most squads because they are great DD's.. and in the case of some instances, they can skip 90% of the mobs and clear guards which speeds up the instance. Then with decent gear.. they are the ultimate solo class. Hell I know Kitamura (ya I know amazing gear.. but it was all farmed.. so fair game imo) solo's world bosses.. sins destroy pvp and pve.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Yes there is, but it's not technical. In my experience, the assassins are too squishy to tank bosses, and therefore need something to do in dungeon squads.

Well, in my experience, which includes Nirvana, Lunar, Warsong, RB (particularly Legion Marshal for relevancy), chrono world bosses, BH's, and so on, Sins are very much capable tanks, as well as Archers, and those who build their characters to have that high APS are going to, if they didn't know already, have a very quick learning curve as to why they are gonna need more defenses to compensate for the aggro they are going to get.

Thus, alot of assassins have problems levelling because while their presence in a squad is tolerated, it's not really needed. And, dungeon PVE is how the real levelling occurs. I don't know how I could put it more succinctly than that.

Funny you mention that. Besides Rebirth, where sins are indeed on the low end of the totem poll, in the more prominent leveling instance (post-hypers), FF, more often than not BM's and Barb's request Sins, for their buff, for their DPS, and even though they don't have decent enduring AOE's, it's enough to drop everything in FF very quickly, which is why Sins are the most prominent class if you wanna ever solo FF. Is that practical for a wizard to try?

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

I hate to say this, but according to your own theory Sage masteries would also stack...to 15%. lol

Why? Clerics get 5% for metal mastery not 10%... even tho they get 2% crit instead of 1%... that is, if you still don't get it, their demon mastery gives more crit than one of our demon masteries, but sage mastery is identical in boost to our sage masteries... and it even says in description it's for that type of damage, whereas it doesn't say so for crit. (yes I know descriptions aren't reliable, but better than completely blind guessing)

Pearlwood - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Why? Clerics get 5% for metal mastery not 10%... even tho they get 2% crit instead of 1%... that is, if you still don't get it, their demon mastery gives more crit than one of our demon masteries, but sage mastery is identical in boost to our sage masteries... and it even says in description it's for that type of damage, whereas it doesn't say so for crit. (yes I know descriptions aren't reliable, but better than completely blind guessing)

Oh I tend to agree with you on the assumption that demon crits stack, but wiz sage masteries give an extra 25%. Where did the number 5% come from?