I heard they changed Nirvana....

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

@Aubree

for belial, on 90ls with 4k p.def something around 2k hp would be required, for pure mag build i think

(im not able to tell you precisely cuz i dunno how strong is his selfbuff)


that, without exploiting apo or genie ofc


@Michael_dark

sure agree with you- more hp is always better

but im not sure if blue circles and feather boss are worth (are hard enough) to tweak build if you have 'long way' to 5k hp


if in FC you/squad kill you on circles or clone boss , you either uninstall game or change squad

those two NV bosses arent much harder than FC..

death from 5k aoe should be rare. if it happens often -then something is wrong


but thats just opinion - kinda hard to argue about it i guess

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Aubree

for belial, on 90ls with 4k p.def something around 2k hp would be required, for pure mag build i think

lol

b:bye

Chefstabs - Heavens Tear

well interval has killed the barb class have not had a chance to do new nirvana i have 18k in tiger ive also have done old frost with just one cleric kill the first boss just to try it it
my wife in game has 6k+ hp and it sure helps her survive more in instances for sure and yes having barb in squad is good just for the buffs alone dont know if i should go to claws
i love being able to to get hits but iam also a cat barb gathering vit stones well see my faction members said cleric died 20 times on one boss and iam enrage soo there geared good maybe they learned wht to do now

Rawthorne - Heavens Tear

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Aubree

for belial, on 90ls with 4k p.def something around 2k hp would be required, for pure mag build i think

(im not able to tell you precisely cuz i dunno how strong is his selfbuff)


that, without exploiting apo or genie ofc


@Michael_dark

sure agree with you- more hp is always better

but im not sure if blue circles and feather boss are worth (are hard enough) to tweak build if you have 'long way' to 5k hp


if in FC you/squad kill you on circles or clone boss , you either uninstall game or change squad

those two NV bosses arent much harder than FC..

death from 5k aoe should be rare. if it happens often -then something is wrong


but thats just opinion - kinda hard to argue about it i guess

Your observations on Belial being possible w/ such a fail cleric (we are talking w/ a normal squad/no 5aps bms) build tells me several things (also reading all of your arguments w/ Micheal):
1. You have nfi wth you are talking about
2. You obviously never faced Belial pre-genies/end game gear
3. You obviously have never looked at how much damage he does to you when he turns around (or other squishies) if bb goes down and he has buffed himself.
4. Hmm this game seems too hard for you if you can't manage to get over 5k hp at 100+ for a cleric....I had 6k+ w/ tt90 gear in my 90's and I have over 7k w/ my tt99 gear (I fluctuate between 7-7700 hp depending on gear/refines and I have 6 garnet gems or it would be higher). Oh wait b4 you start to argue...I'm a hybrid w/ 59 vit...but if I restated I'd STILL have 6500+ vit as a PURE Cleric.
5. There's this neat little function available in every town at elders (and officers if your guild owns the land) that uses mirages CALLED REFINE. Go find it and use it cuz obviously if you have less then 5k hp as a 100+ cleric you have never used it....
6. All I keep reading/hearing is all this qq f/ clerics about nirvana/multiple party wipes. Well I've done numerous nirvana runs since this update and the ONLY time I've died is w/ fail barbs trying to tank w/ ff fists (minimal -int gear) or barbs that suck on the run boss. Why? 1. I know wth I'm doing (and I try and make sure everyone in the party is doing everything properly). 2. I have some damn hp/pdef to survive (and no I don't use charm) unlike so many of these qqing clerics who try to do nirvana now....

Chefstabs - Heavens Tear

yeah i rember doing luna awile bck with you rawthorn cleric's refine it wrks extra hp means you stay aliveb:chuckle

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Well, I must say that their change certainly interrupted mine and my girlfriends plan on duoing countless nirvanas, given the ease it was to do this entire instance before the change. The seal/random part provided a bit of an issue, especially on first try (admittedly, we were both tired and irritable from work so not patient at all the first go-around), but after that we got the hang of it. The boss that spawns the bird adds is not that difficult at all. How easy is it to make a quake lvl 1 genie and max magic? Holy ****, we have a winner. Quake cannot be sealed nor interrupted, so put it on someone not the cleric so they just focus on healing themselves and tank/squad. This boss is not that random so the difficulty is low.

Paramedic is a bit on the dull side (anyone who's actually debated with him knows the depths of his unintelligence combined with stubbornness and exaggerations) given he thinks you can overcome Belial's randoms with merely "skill" in a duo without BB. You had better be the damn best cleric in the game who times apoth or genie skills perfectly (oh wait, he said none of that) and has damn near the best luck, because I've encountered countless randoms that followed another random which knocked out BB, plus mana drain, plus him bufing himself, with 6K pdef on my cleric at one point, when he had 5700hp unbuffed, and got KO'd. When this is a very possible scenario, you go for survivability. Or, in Paramedic's case, exaggeration.

Ehee - Lost City

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Aubree

for belial, on 90ls with 4k p.def something around 2k hp would be required, for pure mag build i think

LOL WUT u think

Balthier - Dreamweaver

Rawthorne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2. You obviously never faced Belial pre-genies/end game gear
3. You obviously have never looked at how much damage he does to you when he turns around (or other squishies) if bb goes down and he has buffed himself.

See, I was gonna post something witty and sarcastic after reading this, then I noticed Janus' reply too, and I started to feel sad for the cleric class b:sad

What does #2 matter? There are genies and end-game gear now (have been for a year soon), isn't it more important to be able to do Belial now, since we can't exactly go back in time and run him like last year? (I started feb 2009 btw, so I've been here way before genies/packs).

At #3, BB? At Belial? What kind of weird strategies do you guys use over on other servers?

Look, Para was talking about duoing, and you know, his random agro is, while random, presicely timed. You may feel free to argue that point, but the fact is he will do his random agro at identical intervals. When I do duo runs I almost never use genie, nor do I have end-game gear by far (Green TT90 +5 grade 8 shards).

First option to use is plumeshell, I can keep this up for about 4-5 of his agro changes, till his timing hits me on cooldown. At which point I use spark to block it (If you cant time your spark when its 3 seconds of invinsibility, you've got either a rather awful reaction time, or you need to lower setting/get better computer) at which point I usually can go back to plumeshell for another cycle. If I somehow manages to miss my plumeshell timing after a spark, and dont have enough chi to spark again I use a phy defence charm, then go back to plumeshell cycle. If for some reason (me being tired or whatnot) and I **** things up, I use my Guardian Light, or in extreme cases AD.

There are so many options to use that you need to be extremely bad at playing your class if you can't do Belial. If you are in a full squad, things change a bit.

If you are the only cleric, you need to tell the other ppl in squad how to use spark/AD if they haven't done him before, and that if someone dies, you will res them when possible (as in, need time to move in res range, wait for barb turtling etc). With two clerics it's a cakewalk. The only challenge here would be that with more party members it gets harder to keep plumeshell up at the right times, since he will hit you with an infrequent interval (targetting other party members than you), which means you have to be more ready to spark/guardian light/AD/defence charm (last one you can keep up regardless if you are uncomfortable with your timing, just costs you a little more having to use one each time he hits you).

I don't know how clerics who've been playing for as long as you have can really have any issues with Belial (other challenging bosses/instances), maybe you are too stuck in 2008 and are unable to adapt and learn new things, since you "know it all" already? Im just speculating of course, but there must be some reason.

And to be a little less nice: Learn to play your class please b:thanks

TL;DR: Skill = Gear in PvE.

Edit: Well, ok, not in all cases. An axe BM can't out-dps a 5 aps however much skill the axe has, but you know what I ment :P

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Balthier - Dreamweaver wrote: »

See, I was gonna post something witty and sarcastic after reading this, then I noticed Janus' reply too, and I started to feel sad for the cleric class b:sad

What does #2 matter? There are genies and end-game gear now (have been for a year soon), isn't it more important to be able to do Belial now, since we can't exactly go back in time and run him like last year? (I started feb 2009 btw, so I've been here way before genies/packs).

So, let me get this straight. As a cleric, you would be just fine running Belial with only 2k hp and 4k pdef?

Sorry, I've done enough Belial runs to know that's just pure BS.

Enough of all of you hyper oracle BH nubs that read a lot on the forums but never actually do any of the stuff you say you do. Oh, I'm sure you know how to heal for Kimsa or Kong though.

Balthier - Dreamweaver

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

So, let me get this straight. As a cleric, you would be just fine running Belial with only 2k hp and 4k pdef?

Sorry, I've done enough Belial runs to know that's just pure BS.

Enough of all of you hyper oracle BH nubs that read a lot on the forums but never actually do any of the stuff you say you do. Oh, I'm sure you know how to heal for Kimsa or Kong though.

I'm sorry, but did you intend to reply to someone else? I can't find a connection with my post and your reply... If you did intend to reply to me, then please quote the part where I said anything like that, it would make it easier for me to connect the dots.

If you remember one of my earlier posts in this thread, I mentioned having done Belial with about 4.8k HP (didnt mention phy def, but that was around 5.5k with bell), and that that was fairly easy, so I can assume (note assume, Im not stating it as a fact) I could have done it with about 4k HP too (closest he was to killing me was getting me to around 1k HP left), nowhere did I say anything about 2k HP and 4k phy def, you have to take that up with Para.

Again if you read my previous post (I even think you replied to it) I also said I was happy with an increase in difficulty for Nirvana, and I wouldnt hate to see that for other instances either, since that would mean more money for me, and more QQ from the oracle/hyper noobs. So, calling me a oracle/hyper noob is frankly a bit rude, as I'm not even close to one. Being one of the first people on my server, I've been through the trial and error game, doing fbs with equal lvls every time, (farming fb89 at lvl 6X for apos way back when they were super expensive, that was friggin fun!) testing out TTs for others to find out how to tackle them, trying out the new frost when it came out, giving others info on what to expect, how we handled bosses (and how bosses handled us :P). So yeah, thats where I come from, not easy mode as so many others like it.

And, I would never go ahead and tell you something that I haven't done in-game, as I wouldn't know about it. I felt like contributing here, since I have actually done Belial many many times, and I felt that my input could add something useful to the discussion (something your last reply really didn't do).

Rawthorne - Heavens Tear

Balthier - Dreamweaver wrote: »

See, I was gonna post something witty and sarcastic after reading this, then I noticed Janus' reply too, and I started to feel sad for the cleric class b:sad

What does #2 matter? There are genies and end-game gear now (have been for a year soon), isn't it more important to be able to do Belial now, since we can't exactly go back in time and run him like last year? (I started feb 2009 btw, so I've been here way before genies/packs).

At #3, BB? At Belial? What kind of weird strategies do you guys use over on other servers?

The typical 2 cleric strategy (if you have a lower geared party for Belial) is 1 cleric bb's, 1 heals tank, 1 bm, 1 barb, 1 veno, and 1 random. The cleric bb's to protect the squishies. Do I NEED to do it this way w/ the gear I have now? No. If I go w/ some squishy undergeared and unprepared ppl do I need to do it this way? Only if I wanna keep the squishies alive cuz I'm fineb:chuckle. Yah a pro squad can do it 1 cleric etc. but I've done Belial hundreds of times and sometimes safe>risking no bb/dead squishies cuz they don't know how to survive bb w/out it.

Balthier - Dreamweaver

Rawthorne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The typical 2 cleric strategy (if you have a lower geared party for Belial) is 1 cleric bb's, 1 heals tank, 1 bm, 1 barb, 1 veno, and 1 random. The cleric bb's to protect the squishies. Do I NEED to do it this way w/ the gear I have now? No. If I go w/ some squishy undergeared and unprepared ppl do I need to do it this way? Only if I wanna keep the squishies alive cuz I'm fineb:chuckle. Yah a pro squad can do it 1 cleric etc. but I've done Belial hundreds of times and sometimes safe>risking no bb/dead squishies cuz they don't know how to survive bb w/out it.

Hmm yeah, I've never done Belial with BB, so you might be right. It just seems too much of a hassle, what with him interrupting BB all the time, needing to switch which cleric BBs etc, and tbh, alot of squishies will die even in BB, whereas a spark/AD will save you no matter what Honestly, I usually run with people I know, so mostly everyone there will know what to do anyway, I suppose I might be lucky b:pleased

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Balthier - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm sorry, but did you intend to reply to someone else? I can't find a connection with my post and your reply... If you did intend to reply to me, then please quote the part where I said anything like that, it would make it easier for me to connect the dots.

Actually the first sentence was kinda directed at you, however I misread what you had typed. The second and third were directed at the guy who said that 2k hp and 4pde were fine for belial. Sorry I didn't make that clear. lol I do make mistakes from time to time. b:surrender

Balthier - Dreamweaver

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Actually the first sentence was kinda directed at you, however I misread what you had typed. The second and third were directed at the guy who said that 2k hp and 4pde were fine for belial. Sorry I didn't make that clear. lol I do make mistakes from time to time. b:surrender

Haha, appology accepted, and no harm done b:pleased

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

@all

read Balthier's post

with enough training you dont even have to use apo or genie. as 'fail' pure mag build u just tank belial random hits with p.shell

every 5-10 cycles you correct it with spark

you revive ppl only when you are on p.shell (2/3 of time you under it, so you re still effective as cleric)



i did belial like that countless times on 90s with 4.2k hp and 4000k p.pdef (bm buff) or
5.46k HP (barb buff) and 3200 p.def (not sure)

i dont remeber him hitting me for more than 3k i think

with pro squad this isnt even hard to do since tank interrupt few aggros and ppl dont die cuz they spark, so you have to use rez like 2 times per run.

ow, and it is important to keep ppl somewhat in rez range so u ask them to spread on your left and right side.


later i found it enterianing to do it with messy squads even. (but then you have to consider apo or genie).


this is example, how you do game with brain, not gear.


and for NV feather boss: you just time p.shell with seal or spark it (every spark works) and then what Janus wrote - any type of genie skill that does dmg works fine.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

stuff

Please FRAPS a 2k hp cleric with 4k pdef tanking Belial.

I will bow down and humiliate myself like one could never imagine and forever beg your forgiveness. Until then I'll call you an idiot and a troll.

b:bye

SaintDominic - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Please FRAPS a 2k hp cleric with 4k pdef tanking Belial.

I will bow down and humiliate myself like one could never imagine and forever beg your forgiveness. Until then I'll call you an idiot and a troll.

b:bye

Leave him alone. He's an awesome cleric. b:bye

Michael_Dark - Lost City

SaintDominic - Sanctuary wrote: »

Leave him alone. He's an awesome cleric. b:bye

Apparently. I need to roll a char on his server so he can show me how he tanks Belial. b:chuckle

truekossy

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Apparently. I need to roll a char on his server so he can show me how he tanks Belial. b:chuckle

Don't do it unless you're watching from above on a level 1 character! b:shocked

RedsRose - Lost City

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Please FRAPS a 2k hp cleric with 4k pdef tanking Belial.

^ Sorry but I am with Michael here...

I solo heal Belial all of the time and even with the pdef and hp that I have, I can tick on occasion with one hit (if self-buffed only) and I have been hit for 4-7k by this monster before b:sad

Belial is an entirely different green baddie...then again I tend to afk when I have to kill this boss b:avoid

TigerLily - Lost City

You can tank belials 1 shot spits with low hp/terrible gear if you can time his attacks.

Ive done it with lvl 80 cleric <.<

At 50% you time his attacks and counter with plume shield, immune or spark. He normally spits than plume shield takes it. Just when cooldown is finished you have to get shield up again - since he spits again lol. Might have to chain with abso domain in between the cool downs or spark (or just pray). Doesnt always work, but its doable if u have a ress scroll and dont mind wasting the tanks charm b:surrender.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

b:sweat


belial mag attack is 5469 - 16407

4k p.def = 50% resistance

i had like 9.8k mana back then, and demon shell


unbuffed belial would hit me for 546,9-1640.7 hp and take 2187.6 - 6562.8 mp

with dominance blessing (i was using it back then, maybe that's why im so biased) it would be 494.4 -1483.2 hp and 1977,6 - 5932.8 mp


so, if his selfbuff gives him more than 49% mag attack boost then his hardest hit will drain all my mana, and take 2.5k HP (w/o blessing)

if i would use blessing then - he would have to get 65% boost to drain all my mana

and even if - this still wouldn't cause my death cuz i can tank some of dmg with rest of remaining HP

and since i dont remember getting oneshot with buffs so either those calculations are correct or im just lucky and i never got max hit from him



anyway, this is my last post in this topic. it s impossible to start any serious debate without flames on those forums =.=

if 'you' (not poiting directly anyone) think that im wrong then prove me. but if you dont know what im talking about then spare yourself (and me) posting.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

VILKASS: OMFG FFS GTFO this thread & go into the medic section to argue Cleric's builds... One is arguing for vit another against.


Both me & my wife are +100 clerics & have 4.5hp or so & it's not cause our gear is ****. It's our choice of equipments & stats.

I tried vit build, LA & now pure & I'm happiest with the latest. I pref more atk & stronger heals to that extra hp with my gameplay. I also have a bunch of spare ornaments/gear I carry around that gives me a crapload of hp, but I rarely equip it... because there is almost never a need for me...

If you happy with your 150 vit b:spit cleric, awsome for you & now go argue that in the other section.


Bk on topic: if you're a cleric & having trouble in the "NEW" nirvana, then go restat to have 6.5 hp like Michael's medic, might help, as will rerolling altogether.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

My lvl 100 cleric has 6.5k hp unbuffed. What's so hard to believe about that?

Learn how to stat properly. b:bye

I think thats cause u have the mindset of a DD main and your cleric as just a full assistant cause your main can do dmg. Unless you have the money to superb your weapon, building a healing class with slave stats just aint fun (i am assuming the hp is from stats and not any super gear cause u stress on the stats)

Sure all clerics can have some VIT and easily get over 5k HP if they wanted to. But who in their right mind would want to stat their main class like a born slave? "Hi ima cleric with 7k HP unbuffed and i hit like a lv80 barb." Only another class that just needs cleric for a useful heal would make that kinda stat, nevermind if its not fun cause thats what your other main is for. Heck if i started out as a BM/archer and got it to 5.0aps id so go full slave stat on cleric and FCC it to 100 lol

not even gonna go to belial cause the topics changin lol

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

i used belial example with premeditation to show how poor is knowledge of few ppl posting in this topic

yeah, it s embarassing that you guys play for 2 years this game and cant find application for basic cleric skills

even more sad that when someone is trying to show how by 'thinking out of box' (popular words lately) you can solve things, all that you can do is ridicule.

when i read/hear something surprising about this game, i usually have some humility and s.t.f.u so i can understand it and check it


but there always are some ignorants who after f.e. fail in nirvana , will cry about 6.5k hp clerics, because checking what they did wrong actually would hurt ego too much.


(to give even better reasons for flames):

with apo and genie even 1hp 1p.def cler can do belial

Michael_Dark - Lost City

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

Bk on topic: if you're a cleric & having trouble in the "NEW" nirvana, then go restat to have 6.5 hp like Michael's medic, might help, as will rerolling altogether.

The reason my EP has 6.5k hp isn't for nirvana it's not for belial. Do I have to keep saying it over and over to finally pound a square peg into a round hole?

TW. Old Frost. Old Lunar. Of course you don't understand. You never will. Sorry, a hyper oracle nub posting in big red letters just makes you look like a moron.

In Nirvana you don't need 5k+hp, but it's nice and it WILL save you from dying at least a few times.

/inb4moreidiotspostBS

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

wonder why mods tolerate you

Telarith - Sanctuary

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

4k p.def = 50% resistance against same lvl character/mob

Corrected to prevent misinformation, you'd have less resistance vs. a 150 lvl boss.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

For Nirvana 5001 hp has alot more survivability than 5000 hp.

The circles in the first room deal 5k damage. With 5000 hp you are a 1 shot. With 5001 hp you have double survivability by becoming a 2-shot. You can survive 3-shots with a charm.

The mobs on the Machino-slit boss deal 5k damage, same as circles.

The fire with the phoenix boss deal 2.5k damage so a similar argument applies.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

@Telarith

oh **** ur right xD

so p.dmg reduction would be there like 40% instead of 50%

which is still ok. i dont think that he have selfbuff too strong. something like -guessing- 30% imo


@Asterelle

'alot more survivability' is lil exaggeration..

nobody dies from circle, phoenix flame or feather.. unless he have really bad luck.
most clerics -that i know- that farm NV on dw dont have unbuffed 5k+

noone really bother to build 5k+ for farming purposes


in new NV clers die most on:

- tryant - by getting one or two shot if they dont p.shell or team is sealed/slow.

- on that stomping guy for same reason

- on feather boss after he start to AoE, cuz there is lot confusion and he wont let you have full hp.