Demons and Sages are not balanced

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

what the **** kind of logic is that?
demon pyro > sage in terms of channel
gush has NO increase on either

how is sage faster on all of them, when its only faster on one?

Astoru - Heavens Tear

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

what the **** kind of logic is that?
demon pyro > sage in terms of channel
gush has NO increase on either

how is sage faster on all of them, when its only faster on one?

*Facepalm*

Read it again, slower this time. What I'm saying is simple. Sage DPS is higher because they have -channeling WHERE IT MATTERS. Pyro and gush cast fast enough as it is, and sage stone rain casts about just as fast as both of em.

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

Ok, let's make on thing clear.. Mages are no Archers. You cannot adapt the same argument that goes for archers on mages. Somewhere in this thread someone said "Sage archers have a lot of chi, but nothing good to spend it on". That, however, is not the case for mages. A mage without chi is basically useless, more or less. You will always need chi to break a barbs charm or whatever.

Let's look at chi gaining/conserving skills that sages have:

- Master li
- Pyrogram, a very spamable chi skill
- Distance Shrink chi cost cut in half
- Chance to save spark on MS and BT

Might not sound much, but it really makes a difference. You can get your ults ready a crapload faster than demon mages, that is mostly noticeable in TW. For one on one, a demon mage might be better suited, but I am not really sure about that either.

In PvP i mostly spam pyro, gush and stone rain.
Sage Stone Rain casts is reduced from 2 to 1.6 seconds, with my -30 chan I channel it in almost one second. Demon Stone Rain has a 20% chance to stun. Comes in handy when it stuns, but you cannot rely on it, it won't save you in 4 out of 5 cases.
Pyrogram demon version has a 0.3 seconds channel reduce, which is less than the sage Stone Rain. And while the sage version makes Stone Rain much more spamable, Pyrogram is it anyway. So it may be nice, but the difference is not as big. Trust me, my sage Stone Rain hurts almost as much as my lvl10 Sanstorm.

And for the reduced channel on the nukes: They are mostly only used in a sutra chain anyway, and there the effect does not really matter. True, they can be used in Demon spark effectively, but who the hell let's you spark in a one on one? And in TW I'd much rather use an ultimate. Again, we are no archers...

So we are stuck ar 5% (not 15%...) damage against 3% crit. Generally, in that case demon wins, but with the crit increase of sage Ice Dragon the 5% shines in that case.

And about Demon BT: Why the hell is a 50% chance to interrupt channeling with a two spark 4sec channel ulti that good? If I target a squishy I can interrupt channeling with sage BT as well. By killing the target. b:surrender

Mage_Fizban - Dreamweaver

I have no friggin clue why Astoru thinks demon BT> sage BT. Their mod is like so fail.

Anyway, 3% crit on a puremag wiz = 3% more chance of oneshotting your target. 5% damage increase will make their charm tick 5% more (whoohoo!).

The critmod on BIDS is only one case, and it's only a 50% chance. Are you going to use BIDS on someone 1v1? If they don't let you spark, I doubt they're gonna let you summon a huge **** blue dragon on them.

All in all, I'd say demons wizzes are better for 1v1, while sages are more suited for larger group activities.

@ Tomiko: You're argument for demon wiz is like -90+% channeling. The first vid you posted was a bug exploit on not having any animations for skills after -92% channeling and the person with the insane channeling was wearing like 4 pieces of OHT it seemed. I wonder how long it took them to get the -6%x3 chan on their wep that they most likely have. The 2nd one was on a private server.

Oneshotu - Lost City

I think it would be nice if demon and sage had the same spark.....

rikako

Oneshotu - Lost City wrote: »

I think it would be nice if demon and sage had the same spark.....

please 25% reduce and 25% faster attack

Boozer - Lost City

samasalao wrote: »

Hi all.

I have been playing this for quite a while, I used to think that there was some balance between demons and sage that fit the style of play of everyone, but lets face it, there is no balance, for most classes but one (perhaps 2 but arguable), demons are better and sages are weaker version of demons with worse skills, I think that every class sage skill but barbarian needs to be updated, and sage spark needs to be changed from reduce dmg 25% (which is pretty much useless) to 50% or increase aspd/ chan like demons one. Some classes are more dramatics like archers and clerics those two really need a complete overhaul in their sage skill path, keep in mind that archers are DD and sage spark dmg reduction serves of no purpose for them, the same with clerics: - chan spark and a skill that damages / debuffs metal resistance on top of it is just too godly for demons and sages need something that at least compares to that (debuffs metal resistance stack over elemental debuff giving demons a godly dmg boost) and not those lame + chi by %/ save spark by % effects.

BTW I am not trying to say that every single sage skill sucks, some are quite useful but in general demon effects are more practical and useful. Either update sage skills to they at least have a defensive counter to demon offensive skills, or give ppl the choice to change from sages to demons.

Thanks for your time.

Have to remember that sage classes skills where created 5-6 years ago when the game looked rather different, which is why they in many cases today are kinda outdated and not so useful skill wise compare to demon...

Sage skills where always more focused on support, challenging pve, defense and TW. This game use to have all that but doesn't really anymore. Demon was more about offensive skills and pvp.

Higher lvl instances in PW use to take many hours and was rather hard, half the server did not have amazing hp and defense from easily obtained grade 14 gear and than the genie skills. So there where a few good reasons going sage back then. Also TW looked rather different, since you couldn't fly you had to work more with strategys and survivability among the classes. Many Bms where sage and vitality build for TW-reasons, build like tank barbs pretty using calamitys to be un-killable support for the catapult and DDs.

The sage classes really need some sort of upgrade today, but PWI wont even release the tideborns skills so zzzzzzzz wont happened. Majority of people hitting 89+ today goes demon. For some classes tho sage/demon are still rather equal, like venos and wizards.

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

@Fizzy: My "huge **** dragon" channels in 2.8 seconds. That is 0.3 seconds longer than a normal Sandstorm. You saw me going against a (charmed) barb (with tt100 +7 weapon) one on one yesterday. I managed to finish him off with a combination of MS followed by sutra, which I could use because MS only used one spark thanks to the proc. And MS is even slower. I managed to succesfully cast it three times in the battle. But the spark animation itself is very long, uses up three sparks and I think a succesful sage BIDS is even scarier than a succesful demon spark. And I'm not even talking of using sage bids with sutra...

Oneshotu - Lost City

rikako wrote: »

please 25% reduce and 25% faster attack

plus 1b:thanks

Black_wolve - Sanctuary

Face it people demon is for PK and what i been told also for TW i personaly like being sage i dont do either pk nor tw so there's nothing wrong with sage infact sage a better tank for barb i have np with any my skills ifact some tell me im better than a demon barb b:laugh.As for changing it for skill's i dont think it will ever happen u want better skills u pay more coin and more hp charms that sell for 4 gold each and sometimes 6 gold each for the plat on game when i first started pwi a hp charm was only 500k now 1.2 or 1.4 mil shows how gready some are want more coin.

In any case you realy cant judge untill u try bouth demon and sage every one has there own opion.

saliith

Black_wolve - Sanctuary wrote: »

In any case you realy cant judge untill u try bouth demon and sage every one has there own opion.

So you're saying i should level two..archers let's say to 99, do both cultivations, get all the relevant skill books for both toons and then decide which one i like better? b:shocked

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

As for wizards

They are both pretty even but you choose one thing when you go sage or demon.

If you choose sage you are choosing to go to end game, getting better as you level past 92.

If you choose demon you are choosing to be pretty good at the beginning but you dont get better as you level past 92.

/endthread

Shadai - Heavens Tear

As far as I'm concerned, all of this is just a matter of opinion. To say one is always better than the other is just an act of voicing your opinion. No matter what stats or numbers you throw out, it still comes down to personal choice. Some like what sage does for them, others demon. Whether any one is better than the other, you'll always find someone who thinks differently. So to completely disregard one side of the debate (I'm looking at you, first post), is to basically say "My opinion is better than yours". You just can't summarize it all that way.
A lot of people in this thread have done a wonderful job of backing up their choice. I've had fun reading all the different reasons why people choose sage or demon over the other. Thanks for the helpful information, and for taking a thread obviously designed to promote conflict (by someone who must have been bored or something) and turning it into an interesting discussion that's actually relevant to the game's community.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

But sage archers can get -70% metal defense, can sometimes land a 5 second seal and along with a 20% reduction in maximum health, and if their opponent is not immune to movement debuffs they can land a 4.5 second stun fairly reliably.

our metal on the other hand never misses, invaluable on thosr damned dex build 4 weapon BMs

thats at level 99 for STA, even then demon is 18% and gets a 10% crit boost. 2% is kind of a stupid trade off for such a huge bonus

same as above, one of my prime robe killer combos is stun-> take aim (itll be better once i get demon.) that 10% extra crit from stun = greater chance to crit on take aim = greater chance for 2-hit kill

sage is kind of lame to me.

Legerity - Sanctuary

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

our metal on the other hand never misses, invaluable on thosr damned dex build 4 weapon BMs

thats at level 99 for STA, even then demon is 18% and gets a 10% crit boost. 2% is kind of a stupid trade off for such a huge bonus

same as above, one of my prime robe killer combos is stun-> take aim (itll be better once i get demon.) that 10% extra crit from stun = greater chance to crit on take aim = greater chance for 2-hit kill

sage is kind of lame to me.

Just a point to remember. Demons need Blood Vow to cause -18% (Demon STA is 16%) and it is not spammable. It also costs 45million coins to learn.

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear

This thread made me lol. Gj.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just a point to remember. Demons need Blood Vow to cause -18% (Demon STA is 16%) and it is not spammable. It also costs 45million coins to learn.

just thought itd be assumed, since she was naming off 99 skills etc.