Demons and Sages are not balanced

Olba - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bow damage goes as:
(1 + dex/150 + mastery) * (equip_damage)

So if you want to compare Sage vs. Demon mastery, equip_damage cancels and drops out of the picture. i.e. Weapon damage is irrelevant to comparisons of mastery.

Sage damage / Demon damage = (1+dex/150+0.9)*(equip_damage) / (1+dex/150+0.75)*(equip_damage)

If you figure a full-dex archer (4 dex/level) at level 100 has 400 dex, this ratio becoems:
(1 + 400/150 + 0.9) / (1 + 400/150 + 0.75) = 1.034

So Sage bow mastery confers only about a 3% damage advantage over Demon bow mastery. Not 15% as your example purports.

Note that adding crits to that would make the difference even smaller, if not completely different. Even more so if it were currently possible to account accuracy into it.

And quite obviously, for hybrid archers, the difference is more than 3%.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

sadly they behave more like a veno than an archer.

Sadly my original post had more substance then what you've just posted?

Honestly, talk about a pointless comment. =P

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sadly my original post had more substance then what you've just posted?

Honestly, talk about a pointless comment. =P

its actually an insinuation considering alot of venomancers talk down to people and / or are extremely rude to them.(knows from experience as an end game veno)

'get over yourself, you ignorant little BM'
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6879661&postcount=33

'personally i think youre a little stupid'
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=628812&page=6

"You're so ****ing stupid.

And you've also just proven you cannot read."
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6856362&postcount=102

"You realise that by responding to his post you do not actually drop the conversation?"
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6854291&postcount=380

"Somebody can't read.

Now do go be obnoxious elsewhere."
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=6853771#post6853771

"Take a good look at yourself, son, before you run around pointing the finger.

At least my off-topic response had substance in it.

Now grow some common sense. "
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6837591&postcount=51

"May I say now that you are a fool."
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6826411&postcount=41

among many other posts. feel free to leave a snide remark or zingy one liner after this long read, because seriously, one veno going around like this is bad enough. we dont need archers trying to be just as obnoxious as well.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

its actually an insinuation considering alot of venomancers talk down to people and / or are extremely rude to them.(knows from experience as an end game veno)

'get over yourself, you ignorant little BM'
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6879661&postcount=33

'personally i think youre a little stupid'
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=628812&page=6

"You're so ****ing stupid.

And you've also just proven you cannot read."
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6856362&postcount=102

"You realise that by responding to his post you do not actually drop the conversation?"
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6854291&postcount=380

"Somebody can't read.

Now do go be obnoxious elsewhere."
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=6853771#post6853771

"Take a good look at yourself, son, before you run around pointing the finger.

At least my off-topic response had substance in it.

Now grow some common sense. "
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6837591&postcount=51

"May I say now that you are a fool."
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6826411&postcount=41

among many other posts. feel free to leave a snide remark or zingy one liner after this long read, because seriously, one veno going around like this is bad enough. we dont need archers trying to be just as obnoxious as well.

That's impressive, that you will accuse me of talking down to people, and then... wait, what do we have here?

Being sarcastic does not make me a venomancer and if it does you might be taking this whole thing a little bit too seriously. Because there are plenty of archers on the forums, clerics, barbs, assassins - they all do the same.

I also like how you will only quote the parts of my post that suit your argument better, leaving links to the rest of them. Never mind considering I might have posted previously in those threads, right?

When you can formulate a better argument, for starters, and when you realise that the use of sarcasm among other things is not a personality trait that only a venomancer would use (seriously, you take this game too seriously if you read the forums and specifically say "venomancers have this attitude, barbs have this one, clerics have this one" because you're completely forgetting the fact it's nothing to do with class, it's to do with the personality of the human behind that monitor) then feel free to come and talk to me, kay?

In the mean time, don't derail this thread, and if you have an issue with me, feel free to PM me about it and I'm sure we can discuss it like two civilised people there.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That's impressive, that you will accuse me of talking down to people, and then... wait, what do we have here?

Being sarcastic does not make me a venomancer and if it does you might be taking this whole thing a little bit too seriously. Because there are plenty of archers on the forums, clerics, barbs, assassins - they all do the same.

I also like how you will only quote the parts of my post that suit your argument better, leaving links to the rest of them. Never mind considering I might have posted previously in those threads, right?

When you can formulate a better argument, for starters, and when you realise that the use of sarcasm among other things is not a personality trait that only a venomancer would use (seriously, you take this game too seriously if you read the forums and specifically say "venomancers have this attitude, barbs have this one, clerics have this one" because you're completely forgetting the fact it's nothing to do with class, it's to do with the personality of the human behind that monitor) then feel free to come and talk to me, kay?

In the mean time, don't derail this thread, and if you have an issue with me, feel free to PM me about it and I'm sure we can discuss it like two civilised people there.

so, who are you to consider my 'argument' valid, even if there was one. the proof is in the print, its obnoxious. that isnt really sarcasm when you call someone f-ing stupid. the rest of the post is irrelevant if youre already name calling and being rude within the first sentence.

the point is, you like to get nasty with people. abelas lethallin if you couldnt catch the gist.

we already have plenty of that going about, we dont need more people joining in its festivities.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

the point is, you like to get nasty with people. abelas lethallin if you couldnt catch the gist.

I will happily admit that I call names on the forums, but this is typically when I'm in a foul mood or, generally, after five to ten posts of trying to nicely explain something, people still fail to get the picture.

If you had read all of some of those threads, you would have already seen this. Instead, however, you pick out one particular post that would somehow justify this point you're trying to make, ignoring any previous posts I may have made and any responses to those previous posts.
This in itself makes your argument rather shallow and certainly a little one-sided, given that you claim I get snappy with people for no reason (or at least, this is what you insinuate) and that I am obnoxious without cause. May I recommend you read those threads a little more thoroughly before accusing me of such things, please.

This also seems like the pot calling the kettle black. You yourself, in your posts towards me in this thread, are being equally obnoxious. If you want to call me out on things, that is fine, but may I recommend you please look at yourself first before doing so. It doesn't look very good if you do exactly the same things you accuse me of doing.

Now then, I'm not going to respond to you any further. It's derailing the thread, for one, and as I've said, if you have a problem with me you can PM me with it.

Rather than be obnoxious and insist on posting in this thread, derailing it further.

-EDIT-
Also an edit, just to make you happy. Maybe you would like to refer to your own signature before you accuse me of being mean and obnoxious.
Does that one sentence somehow justify you being able to call names (which I have seen you do) and be obnoxious (which you are being right now, nevermind in previous threads I can think of) while allowing you to accuse others of doing exactly the same thing?

A little hypocritical, no?

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

If you had read all of some of those threads, you would have already seen this.

LOL?

all i did was click your SEE ALL POSTS by user... theres the rare joke post, like one about waffles or ****, one insightful one here or there, but the rest are a sea of rabid, foam mouthed slew of obnoxiousness. try again.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

LOL?

all i did was click your SEE ALL POSTS by user... theres the rare joke post, like one about waffles or ****, one insightful one here or there, but the rest are a sea of rabid, foam mouthed slew of obnoxiousness. try again.

Hm... right... you're totally not obnoxious yourself.

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Also an edit, just to make you happy. Maybe you would like to refer to your own signature before you accuse me of being mean and obnoxious.
Does that one sentence somehow justify you being able to call names (which I have seen you do) and be obnoxious (which you are being right now, nevermind in previous threads I can think of) while allowing you to accuse others of doing exactly the same thing?

A little hypocritical, no?

I think I've derailed this thing enough, I'll leave you to your own business. Have a good day.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Now then, I'm not going to respond to you any further.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
take note mr konariraiden, this is how its done.

TigerLily - Lost City

What do people mean with balanced? Equally good at everything? Than of course its not balanced for most classes, besides maybe venos and wizards which for some reason are balanced in both pvp and pve.

But for other classes sage and demon are balanced in terms of being good at different things, you just have to pick demon if you wanna pvp. Pick sage of you dont wanna pvp and prefer higher survivability and pve

Dont know if i would call that balanced tho, balanced for me is being equally good at everything, you just have to do it differently. But thats not how developers designed the game.

They made demon barb + bm + archers superior for pk. They made sage barb + bm + archer lack pvp-oriented skills but gave them benefits for pve, more defense skills and support type skills in group pvp.

I do think PW should be more clear about it so people dont pick wrong option assuming both choices are equal

Like a forum sticky lol

DEMON = PK

SAGE = PVE

All tho for most casters both sage and demon works well in pvp, its really just the physical classes where you have to go demon for the attack speed, dmg and crit endgame.

Foxymage - Harshlands

samasalao wrote: »

You got it wrong, never said that each skill was not useful, you can re read my posts again I said already what I had to say. Use PM if you want more specific input, this was not a post about clerics was more in general.

didnt feel like going back to first page but ill just quote this post but its not directed to this post. i think that you can only say sage/demon is not equal unless you have gotten all sage books for ea class then make a new acc make all new chars and get all demon books then compare and make a topic about how its not balanced.

Alexenokin - Lost City

;yawn; you all argue over the most idiotic ****...

go play on a server where this choice ACTUALLY MATTERS, then come back and complain that it's unbalanced...

because news flash for you: THEY ARE BALANCED. the only deciding factor is your playstyle...

for example, all my clerics would go demon, specifically for the demon ironheart
all my wizards, would go sage, for the masteries
all my archers, would go demon, because i dont have the patience to gear up a sage archer

getting the picture? if you had ACTUALLY played EVERY class on BOTH PATHS with MAXED ENDGAME GEAR, you'd know its balanced as can be

/thread b:shutup

_makina_ - Sanctuary

You know why we post? Its for post count and pretending we know everything there is to know about the game then saving ourselves by later saying its our opinion/playstyle. I've lost hope in the forums.........wait not really b:chuckle since I never had hope for it.

TigerLily - Lost City

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote: »

;yawn; you all argue over the most idiotic ****...

go play on a server where this choice ACTUALLY MATTERS, then come back and complain that it's unbalanced...

because news flash for you: THEY ARE BALANCED. the only deciding factor is your playstyle...

for example, all my clerics would go demon, specifically for the demon ironheart
all my wizards, would go sage, for the masteries
all my archers, would go demon, because i dont have the patience to gear up a sage archer

getting the picture? if you had ACTUALLY played EVERY class on BOTH PATHS with MAXED ENDGAME GEAR, you'd know its balanced as can be

/thread b:shutup

You kinda type "idiotic ****" to and obviously have no clue about what work best for in endgame pk.

Its always lower lvls that dont know the mechanics around pvp that sais "its all about playstyle" and equal bs...

Its not about "playstyle" when one path gets an insane amount of crit and attack speed and the other one doesn't. That the case for all PHYSICAL CLASSES, sage gets chi, defense skills and higher base dmg which doesn't give you the extra boost you need for pk when everyone is pimped up in highly refined event gear. Its far harder to compete endgame as sage since you lack the most fundamental pvp tools in the game - speed and crit.

Sage BM can never be a fist/claw beast with 5 attack per sec for example. Which currently is the best way for a BM to win the game 95+. Dont know a single pvp-active 100+ sage Bm that doesn't regret his choice badly today when we actually know what works and what doesn't.

A sage archer can never compete with demon unless you spend several thousand dollars on rank 8. Sage has about 12% less crit and 30% attack speed. You cant even buy that with gear.

Sage barb is weaker for any form of pvp but pulling cata in TW, compared to demon. Demon barb has 50-60% crit, far more than archers once onslaught procs, Demon Armageddon does 10% more dmg. The sage skills dont even come close to that in pk.

Even when i started this game on Malaysian server like 3 years ago it was knows fact that demon = pk for crit and speed. All tho many at that time didn't realize how important it really was.

It is known fact now tho for anyone that actually plays the game and isn't just assuming stuff because it sounds right like "every class is equal if you play them right". Its like they're trying to get new and un- experienced players to make bad choices at 89 and that bothers me.

Dont go sage if you wanna pvp, unless you're a veno or wizards than both choices are good.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um, considering that your damage is effectively (mastery+stats)*(rings+weapon), you are making one horrible example there, as you would need a weapon that does 10,000 damage. Too bad they don't exist. PWCalc says that with a +12 Heaven Shatterer with 2 Drakeflames, which is pretty much the wet dream of any archer, the difference in damage is about 400.

Tech is one of those guys who really doesn't let lack of knowledge get in the way of his posting. It's usually better to just smile and nod, and then walk away

Technotic - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bow damage goes as:
(1 + dex/150 + mastery) * (equip_damage)

So if you want to compare Sage vs. Demon mastery, equip_damage cancels and drops out of the picture. i.e. Weapon damage is irrelevant to comparisons of mastery.

Sage damage / Demon damage = (1+dex/150+0.9)*(equip_damage) / (1+dex/150+0.75)*(equip_damage)

If you figure a full-dex archer (4 dex/level) at level 100 has 400 dex, this ratio becoems:
(1 + 400/150 + 0.9) / (1 + 400/150 + 0.75) = 1.034

So Sage bow mastery confers only about a 3% damage advantage over Demon bow mastery. Not 15% as your example purports.

Its an example, and its been repeated 3000 times that its just for argument, try reading next time.

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Tech is one of those guys who really doesn't let lack of knowledge get in the way of his posting. It's usually better to just smile and nod, and then walk away

You just can't think more than 3 steps ahead of anything. Everything I post everyone argues and fights against but about 3 pages later people start to realize, "omg he's right". *shrug* Maybe if you think things through and read everything instead of jumping to conclusions.

We all know Demon and Sage are balanced. There is no point to this thread anymore.

urbandetox

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

Its an example, and its been repeated 3000 times that its just for argument, try reading next time.

Wow... total fail. You don't understand how damage is calculated and you still don't get it. The 10000 damage example you used isn't just some *random* number, it's around the typical bow damage a decently geared high level archer has. (Look at your own character stat and I'll bet it lists damage around 9000-12000)

You thought the mastery was a straight multiplier on the total damage and just did:

Sage = damage * 1.9
Demon = damage * 1.75

Damage is not calculated like that. Stop trying to hide your mistake, just fess up that you didn't know what you were talking about and got caught by a ton of real archers.

bmwrabcd1234

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Now then, I'm not going to respond to you any further.

How many threads a day do you say this and then keep on rambling on and on and on? Sorry i forgot this is just your excuse when you get WTFpwn by someone on every thread you try to post in.

edit: I have to say after looking through your post history that I have never seen an intelligent comment come from you ever. Maybe you should learn to stay off the forums.

Alexenokin - Lost City

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

wall of text

1) you have no idea who i am apparently

2) i've played every class to endgame and both paths

3) anyone who isnt half braindead would realize that both paths offer a variety of things better than the other

4) dont reply until you know what you're talking about kthxbai b:shutup

Etaerc - Lost City

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote: »

1) you have no idea who i am apparently

2) i've played every class to endgame and both paths

3) anyone who isnt half braindead would realize that both paths offer a variety of things better than the other

4) dont reply until you know what you're talking about kthxbai b:shutup

Anyone can spew bs without proof. If you can kindly post an ss of every class both sage and demon at 99+ not from a private server and not bought I'll stop posting on these forums.

Just the fact you think sage and demon are balanced proves you haven't even got a character to 89 let alone 12 to 99.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

In my experience, the sage and demon paths are very well balanced on every class. Players are just too ignorant to learn how to fully utilize the skillsets. Nothing new there.

High damage does not beat everything else, although you all seem to think it does, must be why its so easy to kill you.

Alexenokin - Lost City

Etaerc - Lost City wrote: »

Anyone can spew bs without proof. If you can kindly post an ss of every class both sage and demon at 99+ not from a private server and not bought I'll stop posting on these forums.

Just the fact you think sage and demon are balanced proves you haven't even got a character to 89 let alone 12 to 99.

hmm, dont think i'll be posting those screenies then, wouldnt want you to have to quit the forum

also, try looking at it from outside your very limited tunnelvision view of it

i'm not talking about purely PvP, like you all are countering me with, and if you can point out where i specifically stated that, then i'll give you one of my homemade peanutbutter cookies

unlike you, i'm looking at it from the big picture, bringing EVERYTHING into it, thusly making any comparison fair and balanced. if you do it this way, you'll see that both sides are quite well balanced

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In my experience, the sage and demon paths are very well balanced on every class. Players are just too ignorant to learn how to fully utilize the skillsets. Nothing new there.

High damage does not beat everything else, although you all seem to think it does, must be why its so easy to kill you.

normally i'd never openly agree with Zoe, but i have to give it to him here... truth is spoken

Softie - Harshlands

samasalao wrote: »

Hi all.

I have been playing this for quite a while, I used to think that there was some balance between demons and sage that fit the style of play of everyone, but lets face it, there is no balance, for most classes but one (perhaps 2 but arguable), demons are better and sages are weaker version of demons with worse skills, I think that every class sage skill but barbarian needs to be updated, and sage spark needs to be changed from reduce dmg 25% (which is pretty much useless) to 50% or increase aspd/ chan like demons one. Some classes are more dramatics like archers and clerics those two really need a complete overhaul in their sage skill path, keep in mind that archers are DD and sage spark dmg reduction serves of no purpose for them, the same with clerics: - chan spark and a skill that damages / debuffs metal resistance on top of it is just too godly for demons and sages need something that at least compares to that (debuffs metal resistance stack over elemental debuff giving demons a godly dmg boost) and not those lame + chi by %/ save spark by % effects.

BTW I am not trying to say that every single sage skill sucks, some are quite useful but in general demon effects are more practical and useful. Either update sage skills to they at least have a defensive counter to demon offensive skills, or give ppl the choice to change from sages to demons.

Thanks for your time.

nver seen a sage black ice dragon then

Etaerc - Lost City

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote: »

hmm, dont think i'll be posting those screenies then, wouldnt want you to have to quit the forum

also, try looking at it from outside your very limited tunnelvision view of it

i'm not talking about purely PvP, like you all are countering me with, and if you can point out where i specifically stated that, then i'll give you one of my homemade peanutbutter cookies

unlike you, i'm looking at it from the big picture, bringing EVERYTHING into it, thusly making any comparison fair and balanced. if you do it this way, you'll see that both sides are quite well balanced



normally i'd never openly agree with Zoe, but i have to give it to him here... truth is spoken

it's quite obvious that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. you haven't played each class to endgame and your terrible arguments are just vague attempts at trying to boost your elitism way of posting. you provide no specifics as to why the cultivations are balanced.

sure my post points towards pvp mostly because pve is a joke. it can be done with any cultivation, even non-culti people at endgame do just fine. there is very little difference in pve between cultivations. even if sage was better than demon in pve, in general most credible sources (see: non-3x keyboard warriors) say the difference is negligible. if there was a noticeable difference and you are looking at a 'bigger picture' the amount demon outshines sage in pvp still easily negates all the small semantics of pve.

still yet to see an argument that enforces your opinion. you seem to just attack all who oppose your delusional and misinformed bull****.

Nakhimov - Lost City

Lots of lulz for the sub-89 players posting here.

The two are surprisingly balanced, they have their ups and downs in most situations. Considering I feel that this game has some pretty awful balance issues, that's saying a lot. Just don't assume they will be equal across the board at all times.

So, either epic troll thread or idiot OP.

Alexenokin - Lost City

Etaerc - Lost City wrote: »

wall of text

you again attack me and base your reply on my avatar i post with...

i'm going to go ahead and ignore you at this point, as you obviously are too thickheaded to understand simple premises

Nakhimov - Lost City

Three short paragraphs is not a wall of text, good sir.

Etaerc - Lost City

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote: »

you again attack me and base your reply on my avatar i post with...

i'm going to go ahead and ignore you at this point, as you obviously are too thickheaded to understand simple premises

So when someone plays the game your way you close your eyes and block them out? The immaturity of the forum elitist takes form. I didn't base my reply on your avatar I based it on the fact you tried to reinforce your points by saying you have played every character to endgame. This is obviously a lie and you are avoiding the question worse than most politicians. I know the 33 isn't your main as you used to post under a veno.

Alexenokin - Lost City

Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »

Three short paragraphs is not a wall of text, good sir.

meh, big enough to warrant a reduction



@Etaerc- i'm not an "elitist" or w/e, i just simply dont give a flying **** if you believe me or not
i know better than to think so narrow, and i can see the major upsides you obtain based on which path you choose
both paths are more or less equally balanced in every regard, but you cant look at it based on one single situation
for example, demon BM gets that pretty 5.00 atk speed, but sage BM can be EPIC in TW or other mass PK situations

Nakhimov - Lost City

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote: »

meh, big enough to warrant a reduction

Reading is good for you. I can condense it into text speak if you so desire though.