Demons and Sages are not balanced

samasalao
samasalao Posts: 159 Arc User
edited February 2010 in General Discussion
Hi all.

I have been playing this for quite a while, I used to think that there was some balance between demons and sage that fit the style of play of everyone, but lets face it, there is no balance, for most classes but one (perhaps 2 but arguable), demons are better and sages are weaker version of demons with worse skills, I think that every class sage skill but barbarian needs to be updated, and sage spark needs to be changed from reduce dmg 25% (which is pretty much useless) to 50% or increase aspd/ chan like demons one. Some classes are more dramatics like archers and clerics those two really need a complete overhaul in their sage skill path, keep in mind that archers are DD and sage spark dmg reduction serves of no purpose for them, the same with clerics: - chan spark and a skill that damages / debuffs metal resistance on top of it is just too godly for demons and sages need something that at least compares to that (debuffs metal resistance stack over elemental debuff giving demons a godly dmg boost) and not those lame + chi by %/ save spark by % effects.

BTW I am not trying to say that every single sage skill sucks, some are quite useful but in general demon effects are more practical and useful. Either update sage skills to they at least have a defensive counter to demon offensive skills, or give ppl the choice to change from sages to demons.

Thanks for your time.
Post edited by samasalao on
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Comments

  • Aadi - Lost City
    Aadi - Lost City Posts: 4,449 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ...Clerics? Really? Have you seen the threads that are dozens of pages long arguing the skill sets of each? And the polls on said thread that are very nearly evenly split between Demon and Sage?

    I can't speak for other classes, but I'm quite happy with how Sage and Demon for Clerics balances out. There are good skills on both sides, and no matter which path you pick there are a few skills on the other path that make you drool.

    Edit: I'm a sage cleric and I'm happy with my choice.
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  • Nodenso - Dreamweaver
    Nodenso - Dreamweaver Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Aadi - Lost City wrote: »
    Edit: I'm a sage cleric and I'm happy with my choice.

    Same here - except how much the darn skills are costing me b:cry
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    samasalao wrote: »
    Hi all.

    I have been playing this for quite a while, I used to think that there was some balance between demons and sage that fit the style of play of everyone, but lets face it, there is no balance, for most classes but one (perhaps 2 but arguable), demons are better and sages are weaker version of demons with worse skills, I think that every class sage skill but barbarian needs to be updated, and sage spark needs to be changed from reduce dmg 25% (which is pretty much useless) to 50% or increase aspd/ chan like demons one. Some classes are more dramatics like archers and clerics those two really need a complete overhaul in their sage skill path, keep in mind that archers are DD and sage spark dmg reduction serves of no purpose for them, the same with clerics: - chan spark and a skill that damages / debuffs metal resistance on top of it is just too godly for demons and sages need something that at least compares to that (debuffs metal resistance stack over elemental debuff giving demons a godly dmg boost) and not those lame + chi by %/ save spark by % effects.

    BTW I am not trying to say that every single sage skill sucks, some are quite useful but in general demon effects are more practical and useful. Either update sage skills to they at least have a defensive counter to demon offensive skills, or give ppl the choice to change from sages to demons.

    Thanks for your time.
    Hello oh demon and sage guru, can you go over each sage and demon cleric skill, how it works in game, and why it's better? I'd like to be entertai-- I mean, informed, with a little less glittering generalities. b:pleased
  • samasalao
    samasalao Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Because you are not 99 yet and have not seen how godly demon wield of thunder is, thats the reason. Once you see how it works and how nasty the dmg is after the debuff you will think otherwise, also demon ironheart is much better and revive is more practical, purify cost no chi, tempest freezes targets razor feathers has less cooldown... should I go on? what sages get is a -chan skill, +chi skills and better heals.
  • samasalao
    samasalao Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Hello oh demon and sage guru, can you go over each sage and demon cleric skill, how it works in game, and why it's better? I'd like to be entertai-- I mean, informed, with a little less glittering generalities. b:pleased

    I dont see the point of your post, can you troll somewhere else?
  • Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear
    Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    samasalao wrote: »
    I dont see the point of your post, can you troll somewhere else?
    samasalao wrote: »
    Because you are not 99 yet and have not seen how godly demon wield of thunder is, thats the reason. Once you see how it works and how nasty the dmg is after the debuff you will think otherwise, also demon ironheart is much better and revive is more practical, purify cost no chi, tempest freezes targets razor feathers has less cooldown... should I go on? what sages get is a -chan skill and slighty better heals. Once your level is 101-102 and your experience in the game is deeper you will understand what I once said.

    Double posting is generally frowned upon, please just edit you previous post b:thanks.
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  • wtvdie
    wtvdie Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Cleric is the most balanced sage/demon possible. They have nearly the same skill set except for like 5 skills. As for the other classes, if you noticed, some skills seemingly suck in pvp, while others seemingly suck in pve. I wonder why? Sage skills are generally geared more for pve while demon for pvp. Its a style of play. There are some skills that just plain suck, but others are good. Not every skill is balanced, but overall they've done a decent job. What you are mostly saying is that you chose the wrong path and now instead of trying to fix it, your just qqing about how underpowered your path is.
  • samasalao
    samasalao Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Double posting is generally frowned upon, please just edit you previous post b:thanks.

    Thanks for your suggestion, sorry I am almost never on forums so is my mistake, I guess there is no delete post option anywhere b:shocked
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    samasalao wrote: »
    I dont see the point of your post, can you troll somewhere else?
    Ask for more info, get called a troll. Interesting.

    You should also point out, however, how many metal attacks you get in during that ten seconds of WT debuff, and why that alone should justify going demon over sage. Would also help to go over other skills too, since you're the sage and demon guru here.
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    what about sage wizard?
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  • samasalao
    samasalao Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    wtvdie wrote: »
    Cleric is the most balanced sage/demon possible. They have nearly the same skill set except for like 5 skills. As for the other classes, if you noticed, some skills seemingly suck in pvp, while others seemingly suck in pve. I wonder why? Sage skills are generally geared more for pve while demon for pvp. Its a style of play. There are some skills that just plain suck, but others are good. Not every skill is balanced, but overall they've done a decent job. What you are mostly saying is that you chose the wrong path and now instead of trying to fix it, your just qqing about how underpowered your path is.

    Not sure why I focused this on clerics, is my mistake, I guess I should edit my first post, but I still think that demon skills are much more practical for both pve and pvp situations but I thank you for your input.
  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Sage/demon at wizard are COMPLETELY equal. It was the most difficult decision in game to choose my path.
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  • Aadi - Lost City
    Aadi - Lost City Posts: 4,449 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    samasalao wrote: »
    Thanks for your suggestion, sorry I am almost never on forums so is my mistake, I guess there is no delete post option anywhere b:shocked

    You have to click the number of your post, edit from there, and then choose to delete. It's a pain b:chuckle

    As for the balance, one of the reasons I chose Sage was that I know the 99 demon skills are nice, but I'm not a serious player, so I don't think I'll get to 99 anytime soon, if at all. So I entirely cut those out of my decision.
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  • samasalao
    samasalao Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »
    what about sage wizard?
    b:sad
    Critproc.jpg
    b:surrender

    Was the other class besides barbarians where I considered that sage were still good but is arguable in that case, nice pic btw.
  • Russiee - Raging Tide
    Russiee - Raging Tide Posts: 848 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Sama what he means, is how do you know that EACH skill is not useful? Id like to be informed of the uses for each skill and why or why not it sucks. GO!
  • samasalao
    samasalao Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Ask for more info, get called a troll. Interesting.

    You should also point out, however, how many metal attacks you get in during that ten seconds of WT debuff, and why that alone should justify going demon over sage. Would also help to go over other skills too, since you're the sage and demon guru here.

    Read my first post again, said clerics as example, if you want reasons read my posts again, Ignored from now on.
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Russiee - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Sama what he means, is how do you know that EACH skill is not useful? Id like to be informed of the uses for each skill and why or why not it sucks. GO!

    Each skill is used to beat the **** out of someone, they all suck because they cost 1m coin and spirit to learn!

    I think I answered that pretty wellb:pleased
  • samasalao
    samasalao Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Russiee - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Sama what he means, is how do you know that EACH skill is not useful? Id like to be informed of the uses for each skill and why or why not it sucks. GO!

    You got it wrong, never said that each skill was not useful, you can re read my posts again I said already what I had to say. Use PM if you want more specific input, this was not a post about clerics was more in general.
  • Aadi - Lost City
    Aadi - Lost City Posts: 4,449 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    samasalao wrote: »
    You got it wrong, never said that each skill was not useful, you can re read my posts again I said already what I had to say. Use PM if you want more specific input, this was not a post about clerics was more in general.

    You called out clerics and archers in particular though. I can't speak for archers, but I'm curious as to why you called those two out to call them unbalanced. The only way to back that up is with particular skills.
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  • Sirrobert - Dreamweaver
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,395 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    samasalao wrote: »
    Because you are not 99 yet and have not seen how godly demon wield of thunder is, thats the reason. Once you see how it works and how nasty the dmg is after the debuff you will think otherwise, also demon ironheart is much better and revive is more practical, purify cost no chi, tempest freezes targets razor feathers has less cooldown... should I go on? what sages get is a -chan skill, +chi skills and better heals.

    Ofcourse. How could we all be so stupid? Sage cleric is only perfect in healing. And let's face it people, you're a cleric. What do you need heals for?
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  • Russiee - Raging Tide
    Russiee - Raging Tide Posts: 848 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I wasn't talking about Clerics o.O sama seriously lol.
    You said that generally most classes have better Demon skills... Better for what? Is a Demon Barb gonna be the main Cata puller better than a sage barb? Thats what I meant bout the skills u.U
  • samasalao
    samasalao Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Russiee - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I wasn't talking about Clerics o.O sama seriously lol.
    You said that generally most classes have better Demon skills... Better for what? Is a Demon Barb gonna be the main Cata puller better than a sage barb? Thats what I meant bout the skills u.U

    Read my first post again, said all classes but barbarian somewhere around there.
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Ofcourse. How could we all be so stupid? Sage cleric is only perfect in healing. And let's face it people, you're a cleric. What do you need heals for?

    You are wrong, yes clerics are healers but thast not all they are, clerics are as good DDers as any other class, I can deal over 160k with my tempest. BTW can we stop talking about clerics b:sad
  • samasalao
    samasalao Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Sorry for the double post.
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I may be wrong about this, but aren't veno demon skills suposed to be cheaper when compared to sage? From what i know about it i would go sage myself, and if venos are choosing sage over demon in enough numbers skill prices are affected, i would say that's a class where demon is certainly not considered "best".
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    samasalao wrote: »
    Read my first post again, said clerics as example, if you want reasons read my posts again, Ignored from now on.
    However, when asked to go into detail and justify these claims (which you did not by any means, whatsoever), you call people a troll. Maybe it's you that's the troll.
  • Sirrobert - Dreamweaver
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,395 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    samasalao wrote: »
    You are wrong, yes clerics are healers but thast not all they are, clerics are as good DDers as any other class, I can deal over 160k with my tempest. BTW can we stop talking about clerics b:sad

    Wizzy can deal 280k with sandstorm. clerics aren't DD's, they are healers, who happen to also have a nice set of DD skils
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  • wtvdie
    wtvdie Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Wizzy can deal 280k with sandstorm. clerics aren't DD's, they are healers, who happen to also have a nice set of DD skils

    bms can do 200k tops lol. we are dds... -.-
  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I saw wizard doing more than 330K damage, But back to OP. I think wizard demon/sage are very good balanced.
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  • Foxgrit - Lost City
    Foxgrit - Lost City Posts: 421 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    you have already conceded that your generalization failed for 3 of the 6 classes that have sage/demon skills.

    lets look at each one individually...

    cleric
    sage focuses on healing while demon focuses on attacking.

    barb
    sage focuses on tanking while demon focuses on increased damage.

    mage
    completely balanced just pick the better path according to the skills you like to use.

    archer
    sage focuses on guaranteed damage while demon focuses on crits and attack speed to get more damage

    blademaster
    sage focuses on defense and guaranteed damage while demon focuses on attack speed and crits

    veno
    sage focuses more on pve guaranteed damage and debuffs while demon focuses on pvp crit and the 20% chance of anally violating your opponent while leaving a 80% chance of skill failure.

    every sage/demon path for each class has its own uses. if you think demon is so much better just go demon on every character. that is your choice to make. as a generalization sage is better for pve and demon is better for pvp. not in every instance but overall that is true. every character has a choice to choose which path they want to go. all the skill information for each path is readily available so no one has to make an uninformed decision. they can each pick the path that is better for their playstyle.
  • Rillien - Heavens Tear
    Rillien - Heavens Tear Posts: 569 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    From what I've heard, archer is the only class where people freak out at you if you go the opposite of the conventional path [demon]. And the price difference in sage/demon archer books is the most noticeable imo. But there are still sage archers out there who say that they are happy with what they chose.

    All the other classes seem pretty well balanced. Just because demon seems to be PvP oriented does not mean that sage is worse.

    As far as clerics go, many of the same status effects are given with different skills: For example, demon spark gives faster channelling, sage magic shell gives -20% channelling for 10 secs [almost as long as spark]. Demon stream of rejuvination gives 100% pdef on target for 10 seconds, sage vanguard spirit gives 100% pdef on target for 10 seconds. I would like some of your examples of inequality, presented in specific skills, please [doesn't have to be cleric, but any sort of example to back up your claim].

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