Demons and Sages are not balanced

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I've played this game 29 months. Mage was my first class I've played it over six months on PW-MY. I wrote the first mage guide on these forums. I think I know a thing or two about mages, and I gave you all the information you needed in the video.

Wake up pls. You really don't know what you talking about. I don't want to argue here come to mage forum and I clearly show you your mistake.
And also. Pls log with your mage character ok?
PS. What you posted on video? The fight of two demon mages? I really don't understand what information is in video that proves, that demon>sage.
And for your information They are lv.150 and I can tell you that If I use undine+ sage BIDS against this mage at lv.150(me) and will critic and next 10s I will critic again for sure he would be death.

Tomiko - Heavens Tear

Tremblewith - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lol@this thread.

Okay guys, here's the thing. If your demon - your probably lookin' to kill people in PvP. Maybe not... Maybe you went demon because you wanted some demon skillz?

If you went sage, it's quite possible that you wanted to be able to PvE more than PvP. Again, maybe not... Maybe you went sage because of the skillz.

Overall, both classes are equal. I could've went sage for the PvE element - more HP, better tankin' and all. I went demon for PvP - better crits, and dmg. Although a sage can PvP perfectly fine, and a demon can PvE perfectly fine. It's really just a matter of opinion.

No, TigerLily gave it to you straight, I gave it to you straight. Do not mix it. You are insinuating demon is for pvp, and sage is for pve and that is not the case!

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Wake up pls. You really don't know what you talking about. I don't want to argue here come to mage forum and I clearly show you your mistake.
And also. Pls log with your mage character ok?

Wake up, lol. Do you see a single sage wizard in that video? No. How many demon wizards do you see? Like 5+, and there's good reason for that. I'm not here to argue either I'm telling you how it is, and what kind of reading comprehension problem do you have, can you not read my mage is on PW-MY?

If you are wise you will listen, if not I could care less, I'm not the one going sage. Have fun, and enjoy the game. I'm not debating this with you anymore, I've wasted enough of my time already on this. Learn the hard way.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No, TigerLily gave it to you straight, I gave it to you straight. Do not mix it. You are insinuating demon is for pvp, and sage is for pve and that is not the case!




Wake up, lol. Do you see a single sage wizard in that video? No. How many demon wizards do you see? Like 5+, and there's good reason for that. I'm not here to argue either I'm telling you how it is, and what kind of reading comprehension problem do you have, can you not read my mage is on PW-MY?

If you are wise you will listen, if not I could care less, I'm not the one going sage. Have fun, and enjoy the game. I'm not debating this with you anymore, I've wasted enough of my time already on this. Learn the hard way.

Of course you cannot argue because you don't have arguments. Or should I post some video where sage beats demon? You making conclusion of 1 video? lol
And for your information They are lv.150 and I can tell you that If I use undine+ sage BIDS against this mage at lv.150(me) and will critic and next 10s I will critic again for sure he would be death.
P.S I have to finish now i'm at work . I will come later.

Yulk - Heavens Tear

I haven't played a sage / demon yet, and IDK...

Spark, you save more damage.

If sage skills need to be beefed up, and that would take a lot of work lol. It would have to stay balanced...

And lets say spark...

25% damage reduction for 15 secs vs 25% attack rate increase for 15 secs...
A lot of barbs choose sage, anyways... They have invoke the spirit, frighten, shape shifting intensity, wind shield (if they get skill from genie) and solid shield (same as wind shield), there are ways to endure attacks and sage spark is one of them. Asking for more than 50% damage reduction is too much.

On top of that, barbs HATE stomp of the beast king, so demon one should be no different, and sage one they might get because of extra chi. There are skills that affects the playstyle of the players.

Sage beastial rage seems unbalanced with demon one? Well for one 1 one targets, ok. But in AOE, sage barbs have it much better than demon barbs in AOE.


IMO sage / demon classes seem balanced. But that's just me.

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Tremblewith - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lol@this thread.

Okay guys, here's the thing. If your demon - your probably lookin' to kill people in PvP. Maybe not... Maybe you went demon because you wanted some demon skillz?

If you went sage, it's quite possible that you wanted to be able to PvE more than PvP. Again, maybe not... Maybe you went sage because of the skillz.

Overall, both classes are equal. I could've went sage for the PvE element - more HP, better tankin' and all. I went demon for PvP - better crits, and dmg. Although a sage can PvP perfectly fine, and a demon can PvE perfectly fine. It's really just a matter of opinion.

^---- this

I'm going sage with both my barb and this BM avatar ;D

Tomiko - Heavens Tear

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Of course you cannot argue because you don't have arguments. Or should I post some video where sage beats demon? You making conclusion of 1 video? lol
And for your information They are lv.150 and I can tell you that If I use undine+ sage BIDS against this mage at lv.150(me) and will critic and next 10s I will critic again for sure he would be death.
P.S I have to finish now i'm at work . I will come later.

Look here. Both wizards and every wizard in the video is DEMON. It isn't a lulz look here a demon beats a sage.../boggle

You apparently can't even see the point of the video. It isn't one video I can show you 10 videos of demon wizards with ridonkulous channeling speeds. The point of the video is channeling speed and damage a sage can never reach!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQWUtAwt_tU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyEo9dV0KiY

That any clearer? Now really...I'm done.

Tremblewith - Heavens Tear

Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No, TigerLily gave it to you straight, I gave it to you straight. Do not mix it. You are insinuating demon is for pvp, and sage is for pve and that is not the case!




Wake up, lol. Do you see a single sage wizard in that video? No. How many demon wizards do you see? Like 5+, and there's good reason for that. I'm not here to argue either I'm telling you how it is, and what kind of reading comprehension problem do you have, can you not read my mage is on PW-MY?

If you are wise you will listen, if not I could care less, I'm not the one going sage. Have fun, and enjoy the game. I'm not debating this with you anymore, I've wasted enough of my time already on this. Learn the hard way.

Again, it's all a matter of opinion. There is no fact that Sage is < Demon for any class. Videos don't back up your opinion. The skillz for both Sage/Demon have equally valuable things that do balance eachother out.

Gasoline - Lost City

For most classes Demon has better pvp skills in general which is why more people goes for demon. Juts go count fairy's and hamburgers lol

There are more demon; clerics and bms for that reason.

There are 100% more demon; barbs and archers for that reason.

I think its rather dumb creating 2 path where 1 is so much more alluring skill wise that everyone picks it. Kinda makes it pointless with sage/demon for some classes.

Most demon classes are also just as good as sage in pve since pve in this game is rather easy mode now, while sage is weaker in pvp. Just doesn't add up to me.

I think developers thought people would be more into challenging pve aspects of the game, why they made sage classes the way they look.
But all pve in this game has been incredible nerfed since developers made the sage skills, so the sage paths kinda needs an update now.

Back in the days there was 100% more mobs in TT, you didnt have a 10% blessing, Lunar Glade took 6 hours, Only a few of the better geared people could finish 86+ Rebirth without genies and Frost before omg you really had use of extra chi and defense skills as sage. But today endgame pve is rather easy making the sage path very out dated.

Alltho sage venos are just as good as demon in pvp, maybe even better b:cute

Edit: I find it rather funny with demon players in this tread saying "go go you can pick sage its just as good as demon and very balanced".

Nakhimov - Lost City

Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The point of the video is channeling speed and damage a sage can never reach!

On single targets perhaps.
However nothing can beat sage aoe spike damage. Also, demon masteries are garbage.

And which guide did you make? Some of the earlier ones were pretty terribad.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

This thread clearly shows who is flexible with their ideas and skills, and who is narrow minded.
Those narrow minded pple,

they will not see,

what they do not beleive.

Alexenokin - Lost City

which would you rather have on your mage...

extra 5% damage + tons of mdef debuffs?
or
extra 1% crit + channeling reduction?

personally, i'd rather have the 5% damage, cause in my eyes, 1% crit means nothing on a puremag mage



here's the point i'm making:
both paths have their upsides and downsides, both paths can outdo the other if you KNOW WHAT THE **** YOU DOIN...

then again, that's just me, i don't see how either path is so "uber" over the others

Astoru - Heavens Tear

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote: »

which would you rather have on your mage...

extra 5% damage + tons of mdef debuffs?
or
extra 1% crit + channeling reduction?

personally, i'd rather have the 5% damage, cause in my eyes, 1% crit means nothing on a puremag mage

Eh.....

Demons have a harder hitting sandstorm.
Demons have a better stone barrier.
Demons have a stone rain that stuns.
Demons have a better blade tempest.

I'm a sage btw.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote: »

which would you rather have on your mage...

extra 5% damage + tons of mdef debuffs?
or
extra 1% crit + channeling reduction?

personally, i'd rather have the 5% damage, cause in my eyes, 1% crit means nothing on a puremag mage



here's the point i'm making:
both paths have their upsides and downsides, both paths can outdo the other if you KNOW WHAT THE **** YOU DOIN...

then again, that's just me, i don't see how either path is so "uber" over the others

eye of observation shows the masteries stack, and they dont have mdef debuffs, they have small fire and water resistance debuffs... which both suck compared to undine because they are less and dont stack.

last i checked, - channel and crit = amazing.

Alexenokin - Lost City

Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Eh.....

Demons have a harder hitting sandstorm.
Demons have a better stone barrier.
Demons have a stone rain that stuns.
Demons have a better blade tempest.

I'm a sage btw.

sage has aoe stun
sage has aoe seal
sage has the ability to chain all three ultis in one macro

ijs :P

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

eye of observation shows the masteries stack, and they dont have mdef debuffs, they have small fire and water resistance debuffs... which both suck compared to undine because they are less and dont stack.

last i checked, - channel and crit = amazing.

on a puremag mage, +1% crit is relatively useless compared to +5% damage
on a light armor mage, +1% crit is awesome compared to +5% damage
and yes, undine is better for the reduction amount, however the skills themselves deal great damage

Astoru - Heavens Tear

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

eye of observation shows the masteries stack, and they dont have mdef debuffs, they have small fire and water resistance debuffs... which both suck compared to undine because they are less and dont stack.

last i checked, - channel and crit = amazing.

If a wizard has 8% crit, it'll have 11% with masteries. That's not a huge difference.

Also, I don't understand why everyone thinks that demons chant faster. Sages have skills that have -channeling as well. That's assuming you aren't talking about the wellspring bonus for demons; I don't really know anyone in their right mind that would waste a spark for that.

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote:

sage has aoe stun

Eh....if you're talking about Mountain Seize, demons have that too.

I know what bonus's sage wizards have, I was just making a point. There are many demon skills that are superior to their sage counterparts.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If a wizard has 8% crit, it'll have 11% with masteries. That's not a huge difference.

Also, I don't understand why everyone thinks that demons chant faster. Sages have skills that have -channeling as well. That's assuming you aren't talking about the wellspring bonus for demons; I don't really know anyone in their right mind that would waste a spark for that.

their 3x spark has -25% channel, and alot of their moves have reduced channel time.

@alex
having all 3 = 3% more not 1.

Alexenokin - Lost City

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

their 3x spark has -25% channel, and alot of their moves have reduced channel time.

yea, this ^



but that's hardly an issue when you are dealing insane damage per hit as a sage mage...

again, its about your build and playstyle, as well as personal preference

@waffles- then its +15% damage or +3% crit... i would still go with the damage as a puremag mage, or crit as a light armor

personally, i'd never build my mage for LA, so sage will always be better for ME, but then again, other people have different opinion because they have different playstyle and/or build

Astoru - Heavens Tear

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

their 3x spark has -25% channel, and alot of their moves have reduced channel time.

@alex
having all 3 = 3% more not 1.

Let's think about it.

Big shiny red flash = STUN THAT ******

Relying on a spark usually equates to getting ****-faced

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote: »

yea, this ^



but that's hardly an issue when you are dealing insane damage per hit as a sage mage...

again, its about your build and playstyle, as well as personal preference

@waffles- then its +15% damage or +3% crit... i would still go with the damage as a puremag mage, or crit as a light armor

personally, i'd never build my mage for LA, so sage will always be better for ME, but then again, other people have different opinion because they have different playstyle and/or build

demons have the moves that have damage +'d on them, its not as if their DPH is really any different. demons have the better dps though

the crits stack, the 5% bonuses do not.

Alexenokin - Lost City

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

demons have the moves that have damage +'d on them, its not as if their DPH is really any different. demons have the better dps though

sage has greater DPH overall, demon has greater DPS overall...

you also have to realize, sage path would require puremag build and heavy refines in order for it to make a noticeable difference

its the same basic deal, overall you'd be doing +15% damage, just like overall you'd be doing +3% crit

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote: »

sage has greater DPH overall, demon has greater DPS overall...

you also have to realize, sage path would require puremag build and heavy refines in order for it to make a noticeable difference

its the same basic deal, overall you'd be doing +15% damage, just like overall you'd be doing +3% crit

which makes it like demon vs sage archer... where the sage has to go berserk on refines to make any noticable difference between the two. this is kind of a demons game

and its not the same dif, you cant really compare apples to oranges to bananas

Alexenokin - Lost City

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

which makes it like demon vs sage... where the sage has to go berserk on refines to make any noticable difference between the two. this is kind of a demons game

and its not the same dif, you cant really compare apples to oranges to bananas

well see thats the thing, once you reach endgame, you're going to put those refines on your weap, so in the end, it still comes down to personal preference, playstyle, and build b:victory

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

but an equally refined demon is more scary than a sage! to me this whole 'its a matter of personal playstyle' is just a blind eyed cop out to ignore the realization demons are for the most part better on all but venos and clerics O_o.

on them it doesnt matter

Astoru - Heavens Tear

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

but an equally refined demon is more scary than a sage!

How? Sage has superior ultimates and can cast the first tier skills at a faster rate than demon.

Alexenokin - Lost City

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

but an equally refined demon is more scary than a sage! to me this whole 'its a matter of personal playstyle' is just a blind eyed cop out to ignore the realization demons are for the most part better on all but venos and clerics O_o.

on them it doesnt matter

it dont matter, if both have +12'd weap, sage will still do much higher DPH, and demon will do much better DPS... they balance eachother out, and it comes down to how you play your character as to which path you choose b:laugh

Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How? Sage has superior ultimates and can cast the first tier skills at a faster rate than demon.

sage can also chain all three ultis in one macro ... ijs

Astoru - Heavens Tear

Alexenokin - Lost City wrote: »

sage can also chain all three ultis in one macro ... ijs

You say that, but I don't see the practicality of using that against another wizard. I'd just as soon Sutra + D-Pyro for fire debuff + BT

Alexenokin - Lost City

Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You say that, but I don't see the practicality of using that against another wizard. I'd just as soon Sutra + D-Pyro for fire debuff + BT

lol, you wouldnt use that against another wizard. you'd use that in TW

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

cast the first tier skills at a faster rate than demon.

no they cant, gush has no reduced, pyro is faster on demon. stone rain is the only one in this category.

has superior ultimates

only black ice dragon
the other two both have chi related or stupid effects.

sage will still do much higher DPH,

only at times your black ice dragon goes off, for the most part demon wins :V

Astoru - Heavens Tear

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

no they cant, gush has no reduced, pyro is faster on demon. stone rain is the only one in this category.

Errmmm.......

Only pyrogram has reduced channeling. And the channeling reduction on stone rain for sage is larger. So sage is faster on the first tier skills.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

what the **** kind of logic is that?
demon pyro > sage in terms of channel
gush has NO increase on either

how is sage faster on all of them, when its only faster on one?