Demons and Sages are not balanced

Astoru - Heavens Tear

....If you base your decision purely on a spark, you're a moron.

Use a spark in PvP, you'll see. It practically screams "STUN THIS F@GGOT"

CapnK - Sanctuary

From what I've read on the archer forums, Sage and Demon damage over time is almost completely identical. Just that sages have to use more skills while demons just use normal attacks.

Blademaster sage and demon are extremely well-balanced also. Took me most of my 80s before I decided which way I wanted to go.

wtvdie

Rillien - Heavens Tear wrote: »

From what I've heard, archer is the only class where people freak out at you if you go the opposite of the conventional path [demon]. And the price difference in sage/demon archer books is the most noticeable imo. But there are still sage archers out there who say that they are happy with what they chose.

All the other classes seem pretty well balanced. Just because demon seems to be PvP oriented does not mean that sage is worse.

As far as clerics go, many of the same status effects are given with different skills: For example, demon spark gives faster channelling, sage magic shell gives -20% channelling for 10 secs [almost as long as spark]. Demon stream of rejuvination gives 100% pdef on target for 10 seconds, sage vanguard spirit gives 100% pdef on target for 10 seconds. I would like some of your examples of inequality, presented in specific skills, please [doesn't have to be cleric, but any sort of example to back up your claim].

nope, not even. there are a lot of good sage archers on my server. many are stronger than the demon counterparts.

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver

wtvdie wrote: »

nope, not even. there are a lot of good sage archers on my server. many are stronger than the demon counterparts.

This.

It's just that people arent used to it, and don't know how to make it work.

Same as:
fist BM. Didn't people scream at you that you sucked if you used fists before the anipacks made it possible for fists to own a charmed barb with normal attacks. Now, every BM tries fists.

Sage wiz (from what I hear/read on the forums, a long time ago every wiz HAD to be demon, cause sage failed. Now, people agree it's balanced, and massive threads filled with numbers take out the agruments that say demon Sandstorm owns, as sage mastery makes up for the extra dmg.

Just 2 thingy's out the top of my head, not sure if it's fully correct but I think it was about that

Waterfal - Sanctuary

venomancer sage/demon is balanced imo. It just depends on your playstyle.
both would suit me fine, though I prefer demon.

demon gives spike damage, while sage gives constant damage.

sage foxform: extra defense
demon foxform: extra speed for a while

while sage ironwood always gives -phys defense, so your pet will hit harder.
demon venomous gives -wood defense so you will hit harder.
two different skills, but they are also balancing demon and sage.

it's just for different skills. and just what you prefer.

Technotic - Sanctuary

samasalao wrote: »

Hi all.

I have been playing this for quite a while, I used to think that there was some balance between demons and sage that fit the style of play of everyone, but lets face it, there is no balance, for most classes but one (perhaps 2 but arguable), demons are better and sages are weaker version of demons with worse skills, I think that every class sage skill but barbarian needs to be updated, and sage spark needs to be changed from reduce dmg 25% (which is pretty much useless) to 50% or increase aspd/ chan like demons one. Some classes are more dramatics like archers and clerics those two really need a complete overhaul in their sage skill path, keep in mind that archers are DD and sage spark dmg reduction serves of no purpose for them, the same with clerics: - chan spark and a skill that damages / debuffs metal resistance on top of it is just too godly for demons and sages need something that at least compares to that (debuffs metal resistance stack over elemental debuff giving demons a godly dmg boost) and not those lame + chi by %/ save spark by % effects.

BTW I am not trying to say that every single sage skill sucks, some are quite useful but in general demon effects are more practical and useful. Either update sage skills to they at least have a defensive counter to demon offensive skills, or give ppl the choice to change from sages to demons.

Thanks for your time.

Just close this thread. Totally pointless. I'll compare a few things to show you how idiotic you sound saying one is greater than the other.

Sage generally has higher damage mastery. Such as Archer mastery. Sage increases damage by 90%, demon increases by 75% + 1 Crit. That 15% Is a hell of a boost. For argue-mental purposes lets make this simple. If your damage is 10,000 and it has a boost of 75%, your damage is 17,500. Sage would bring you to 19,00. That is another 1,500 damage you're doing per hit. Of course those statistics are just to show a point.

While we're on archer topic: Sharpened Tooth Arrow. Sage reduces enemy Max Hp by 20%, while Demon only reduces 16% but gives you a crit boost.

Sage/Demon Sparks. Demon = 25% faster attack. Sage = 25% damage reduction. If you are DD, Demon would be the logical choice there. But say you are a tank or getting hit very hard(Cleric) because tank died. Sage has 25% damage reduction, keeping you alive.

Chi: Sage = Instant +50 Chi. Demon = Instant -50 to enemy. Demon doesn't even get that back. So Sage can boost chi faster on this one while Demon can drain it.

Lets look at others races/classes. Barb demon is built more around damage and sage is built more around staying alive. True Form Sage = 40% HP increase over a 30% increase but no damage decrease by Demon. Again there is that 10%. Lets look at what that can do for some people. Lets direct our attention to Templar(A Sanctuary super tank). He has/had ~40k hp. Not sure if he still has that. 10% of ~40k is another 4k hp. I don't even have 4k hp. XD

Blademaster: Aeolian Blade Sage = 180% damage while Demon = -1 Second Cooldown.

Sage and Demon both have their super skills that make them more powerful over the other. Archer Lightning Strike as Sage increases chi by 20 with 25% success while Demon always hits with a +2 cooldown. But Archer Deadlyshot Sage = No penalty for damage up close while Demon = +500 damage. Frost Arrow Demon = Chance to recover Chi instead of losing, Sage = Water Damage<---Only water skill an archer has. Sage Stunning Arrow = 4.5 second stun, Demon = Crit boost.

So it all depends what you're doing. If Sage/Demon wasn't balanced then everyone would just pick Demon from what you're saying. Sage is normally for surviving or constant average damage. Demon is more for spike damage and tricks. In general that is how it works. There are some exceptions.

Rillien - Heavens Tear

wtvdie wrote: »

nope, not even. there are a lot of good sage archers on my server. many are stronger than the demon counterparts.

Yeah, I have heard good things about Sage archer as well, and I think it is becoming more common now. But just like wizard a long time ago, a little bit back there were lots of "Go demon or DIE" types of threads on the archer forums. Funny that the OP says wizards are completely balanced sage/demon, yet it was very one-sided at one time. I think as the game gets older, there will be more that try each type and talk about the merits.

I don't think I've heard of anyone who has been unhappy with their choice, after choosing and getting skills.

And if most are happy, I think it's mostly balanced.

Olba - Sanctuary

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sage generally has higher damage mastery. Such as Archer mastery. Sage increases damage by 90%, demon increases by 75% + 1 Crit. That 15% Is a hell of a boost. For argue-mental purposes lets make this simple. If your damage is 10,000 and it has a boost of 75%, your damage is 17,500. Sage would bring you to 19,00. That is another 1,500 damage you're doing per hit. Of course those statistics are just to show a point.

Um, considering that your damage is effectively (mastery+stats)*(rings+weapon), you are making one horrible example there, as you would need a weapon that does 10,000 damage. Too bad they don't exist. PWCalc says that with a +12 Heaven Shatterer with 2 Drakeflames, which is pretty much the wet dream of any archer, the difference in damage is about 400.

Quilue - Sanctuary

for archers, the choice is often one-sided because of the lack of endgame potential in a lot of archer skills and because of the opponents that archers want to deal with.

archers don't get any skills with weapon damage add-on that doesn't require fairly long channeling. fighting against endgame robe/LA mostly involve bum rushing past the opponents' charm with normal attacks because there's really not much else to do. thus many go demon to have a chance at having more attack speed and crits so as to hope for a kill during the stun duration.

sage have a bit more time on their hands with a longer stun, they also have a more powerful hp debuff, slightly higher base damage, faster channel thunderous blast; making them arguably better suited against heavies than demons - if only i like to deal with heavies in PvE server TW.

Technotic - Sanctuary

Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um, considering that your damage is effectively (mastery+stats)*(rings+weapon), you are making one horrible example there, as you would need a weapon that does 10,000 damage. Too bad they don't exist. PWCalc says that with a +12 Heaven Shatterer with 2 Drakeflames, which is pretty much the wet dream of any archer, the difference in damage is about 400.

You ever run into Wizzeled on Sanctuary? Try it sometime. He's put over $20,000 into this game. Archer with ~13,000 hp unbuffed and hits like a truck.

Olba - Sanctuary

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

You ever run into Wizzeled on Sanctuary? Try it sometime. He's put over $20,000 into this game. Archer with ~13,000 hp unbuffed and hits like a truck.

And so what?

Doesn't somehow magically give him an extra 7,000 weapon damage.

Rillien - Heavens Tear

^^Which brings up another point:

With enough money, any sage/demon path and any build combo can be effective.

Money is the great balancer.

Olba - Sanctuary

Rillien - Heavens Tear wrote: »

^^Which brings up another point:

With enough money, any sage/demon path and any build combo can be effective.

Money is the great balancer.

Wizzeled's argument for Sage over Demon is pretty much "My wallet>cultivation".

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver

Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um, considering that your damage is effectively (mastery+stats)*(rings+weapon), you are making one horrible example there, as you would need a weapon that does 10,000 damage. Too bad they don't exist. PWCalc says that with a +12 Heaven Shatterer with 2 Drakeflames, which is pretty much the wet dream of any archer, the difference in damage is about 400.

Obviusly he was taking the numbers for easy calculation

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sage generally has higher damage mastery. Such as Archer mastery. Sage increases damage by 90%, demon increases by 75% + 1 Crit. That 15% Is a hell of a boost. For argue-mental purposes lets make this simple. If your damage is 10,000 and it has a boost of 75%, your damage is 17,500. Sage would bring you to 19,00. That is another 1,500 damage you're doing per hit. Of course those statistics are just to show a point.

If you don't know the difference between weapon attack and base damage don't go around making up numbers. Sage bow mastery adds about 3% more damage over demon for a typical pure dex archer.

Marista - Lost City

Sage and demon venomancer is definitely balanced; it was a hard choice. Though, in truth, I don't see why anyone says sage is more PvE than PvP. Longer stuns and higher spike damage on amp and more chi to use hood and nova and a free purify to **** up that wizard's undine + ulti? No PvP use for that. Nope. None. <.<; Really, both paths are decently suited to either arena, and though I'm quite happy with sage, demon venos have some pretty nice tricks too.

Technotic - Sanctuary

Just picked some random numbers for calculation. jeeze, do you people just sign on to find things to insult? Stop being such an **** hole. If you actually read the post, you could see I said several times that the numbers are just for argument. God damn people...

Olba - Sanctuary

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Obviusly he was taking the numbers for easy calculation

False evidence to support an argument.

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just picked some random numbers for calculation. jeeze, do you people just sign on to find things to insult? Stop being such an **** hole. If you actually read the post, you could see I said several times that the numbers are just for argument. God damn people...

... Again, it's an argument. And the Archer forum is known for being mathematically accurate and correct.

Point is, you made sages look much better than they actually are by being careless.

Technotic - Sanctuary

I love demon. Just trying to show how its balanced. If you're just going to insult posts you can turn off your computer now. Or at least get a couple more levels before telling people the difference between Sage/Demon.

Olba - Sanctuary

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

I love demon. Just trying to show how its balanced. If you're just going to insult posts you can turn off your computer now. Or at least get a couple more levels before telling people the difference between Sage/Demon.

... Um, weren't you in your 70s before the Anni Packs? I wouldn't talk about knowing anything if I had oracled my way up to "knowledgeable levels".

Aadi - Lost City

ITT: Every single class' Sage/Demon threads merged into one.

Asperitas - Lost City

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just picked some random numbers for calculation. jeeze, do you people just sign on to find things to insult? Stop being such an **** hole. If you actually read the post, you could see I said several times that the numbers are just for argument. God damn people...

They're not "insulting" you. They're correcting you so you don't further make a fool of yourself in the future. Numbers are numbers, fair enough. But the math will always be the same. You can't just pick random formulas and put them together.

If you're going to make an argument, be sure the argument is correct, lest you embarass yourself.

Technotic - Sanctuary

Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

... Um, weren't you in your 70s before the Anni Packs? I wouldn't talk about knowing anything if I had oracled my way up to "knowledgeable levels".

I sold everything in those packs. I used oracles from level 34 to ~70 and did BH/CS/Quest during that time. Total oracles was about 1k. So from ~70 to 98 it was all questing with occasional oracle or two from a quest of event. You haven't even hit Sage/Demon yet. I don't see how you would have any input on Archer Sage/Demon at all. Just because I can merch enough money to afford Oracles doesn't mean you need to QQ about it. Stop being so poor and learn to make money in the game. The numbers I used was for easy calculations for people to understand what it does. But apparently you didn't see that I said that over and over again, even someone else pointed it out to you.

Demon is for Spike damage and tricks, Sage is for staying alive and higher average damage.

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

They're not "insulting" you. They're correcting you so you don't further make a fool of yourself in the future. Numbers are numbers, fair enough. But the math will always be the same. You can't just pick random formulas and put them together.

If you're going to make an argument, be sure the argument is correct, lest you embarass yourself.

I'm not going to ask every archer and average their damage for a sum calculation. I picked a rounded high number to show the gap. I could have just picked 10 damage and increased it by 15% to get 11.5, not many people would see that useful at all.


No one knows the exact calculation between blazing arrow, dex, weapon, buffs, mastery skills. Especially from an unstable game like PWI(prime example, 12x exp from hyper exp is more like 5x. I've tried it and was only getting 5x out of it). Rounding to a number that people can use is more effective.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Personally... I think you're a little stupid.

Demon and sage are only unbalanced if you : do not read all the skills, all their descriptions and then consider what they seriously do in combos or chains of attacks.

Instead of saying they are unbalanced, why don't you do some math, hm? Why don't you prove they are unbalanced with numbers and statistics that undeniably prove that going demon is infinitely better than sage in every single situation?

I personally am going demon. However, I find sage and demon are quite balanced enough. Sage is not based on pure attack power (in comparison to demon at any rate) and instead, for archers at least, seems to be somewhat focused around the gain of chi. Gaining more chi faster means you are able to spark more often in sage. Sage gives a defence boost - albeit not the best but when you are in light armor every bit of defence can count - when you spark, and if you can spark more often, you can find yourself with that boost more often. This could be incredibly helpful in certain situations.

See where I am going with this?

If all you want is attack power, less interval, less channelling time and more crit, then yes, you would think demon is overpowered in compared to sage. If you actually take a serious look at the differences however you would realise that both have impressive capabilities provided you know how to utilise them properly.

Aadi - Lost City

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Instead of saying they are unbalanced, why don't you do some math, hm? Why don't you prove they are unbalanced with numbers and statistics that undeniably prove that going demon is infinitely better than sage in every single situation?

Spoken like a true archer b:chuckle

Asperitas - Lost City

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

I sold everything in those packs. I used oracles from level 34 to ~70 and did BH/CS/Quest during that time. Total oracles was about 1k. So from ~70 to 98 it was all questing with occasional oracle or two from a quest of event. You haven't even hit Sage/Demon yet. I don't see how you would have any input on Archer Sage/Demon at all. Just because I can merch enough money to afford Oracles doesn't mean you need to QQ about it. Stop being so poor and learn to make money in the game. The numbers I used was for easy calculations for people to understand what it does. But apparently you didn't see that I said that over and over again, even someone else pointed it out to you.

Demon is for Spike damage and tricks, Sage is for staying alive and higher average damage.



I'm not going to ask every archer and average their damage for a sum calculation. I picked a rounded high number to show the gap. I could have just picked 10 damage and increased it by 15% to get 11.5, not many people would see that useful at all.


No one knows the exact calculation between blazing arrow, dex, weapon, buffs, mastery skills. Especially from an unstable game like PWI(prime example, 12x exp from hyper exp is more like 5x. I've tried it and was only getting 5x out of it) . Rounding to a number that people can use is more effective.

Nobody questioned your choice of numbers. They're questioning your addition of 15% and the application of that 15%. Nobody would have cared if you used 1 damage or 100 000 damage. They were pointing at the fact that you straight multiplied total damage by 1.15, which I'd assume is wrong. I don't know, I don't play an archer.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you don't know the difference between weapon attack and base damage don't go around making up numbers. Sage bow mastery adds about 3% more damage over demon for a typical pure dex archer.

Asterelle isn't questioning your choice of numbers, but the application of your math.

Technotic - Sanctuary

Both Demon and Sage are balanced. Each has its own advantages that shuts the other one down. If you want to feel over-powered, go TideBorn<---Lols

Other than that, Demons and Sages are balanced. Fail thread.

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Nobody questioned your choice of numbers. They're questioning your addition of 15% and the application of that 15%. Nobody would have cared if you used 1 damage or 100 000 damage. They were pointing at the fact that you straight multiplied total damage by 1.15, which I'd assume is wrong. I don't know, I don't play an archer.



Asterelle isn't questioning your choice of numbers, but the application of your math.

They're QQing because it is a mastery over weapon damage, not calculated damage. That part is pretty obvious to everyone. I figured some people could figure that out but they're apparently a little slow.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Aadi - Lost City wrote: »

Spoken like a true archer b:chuckle

Teehee, I try. ='D

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Aadi - Lost City wrote: »

Spoken like a true archer b:chuckle

sadly they behave more like a veno than an archer.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

They're QQing because it is a mastery over weapon damage, not calculated damage. That part is pretty obvious to everyone. I figured some people could figure that out but they're apparently a little slow.

Bow damage goes as:
(1 + dex/150 + mastery) * (equip_damage)

So if you want to compare Sage vs. Demon mastery, equip_damage cancels and drops out of the picture. i.e. Weapon damage is irrelevant to comparisons of mastery.

Sage damage / Demon damage = (1+dex/150+0.9)*(equip_damage) / (1+dex/150+0.75)*(equip_damage)

If you figure a full-dex archer (4 dex/level) at level 100 has 400 dex, this ratio becoems:
(1 + 400/150 + 0.9) / (1 + 400/150 + 0.75) = 1.034

So Sage bow mastery confers only about a 3% damage advantage over Demon bow mastery. Not 15% as your example purports.