Squading Assassin

Airyll - Dreamweaver

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

who had a godclass complex?
we have second fastest dps? right?
we have a higher crit rate and a higher crit dmg than others
umm our daggers aren't as powerfull as a bow maybe but its not a big difference..

and again i don't place our class as a godclass.. its just that it pisses me off when ppl like come along and start bout "wtf are u talking about sins are ****, we won't squad sins, wizzis, archers ,bms outdamage a sin" without having a clue what exactly sins are capable of(if u had u wouldn't talk like that).

I won't accuse you of having a godclass complex. I will rightly accuse you of getting up in arms over people simply disagreeing with you and pointing out why. You're very fast to get on the defensive about things when there's truly no reason to and I suggest if you can't handle the fact some people with disagree with you maybe it would be better for you to not post.

You may have a slightly higher crit rate then archers, but I am still doubtful you out-damage or out-crit us. Bows do higher damage than daggers at the cost of attack speed - yes. You can crit as much as (or potentially outcrit given the sheer ridiculous dex bonuses some of your daggers get) archers too. However, archers have range that you don't, and our crits are easily enough to see that we have ridiculously high DPS. If you then consider an archer with -interval gear, they easily end out ousting you and your DPS, as I said earlier. Yes, it requires the archer in question to have good gear, potentially refined - but they still beat you in a contest of DPS.

Also, the person you were aiming that post at in particular said nothing about sins being a useless class. In fact, he had some very valid points, pointing out that your stunlocks combined with your high DPS make you a formidable force and I have no doubt a sin with -interval gear and other good gear and a few refines is easily capable of having the highest DPS of the majority of everybody else.

Heartstone - Dreamweaver

Risingson - Lost City wrote: »

YOU have the highest damage in game ? I HIGHLY doubt that. Try topping a Wizard's damage, then we'll see.

wizard damge over time DD'ing is less than a sin. your spike higher by alot, but attacking hell of alot slower. on my barb i see it easy.. lose aggro to claw/fist bms with intervals + good archers. wizz more rare. so far when i play on sin. i can get aggro on [?] boss if its what i want ( if barb not have bramle) - unless barb is 10 lvls above or something.

make a cleric RB with a sin in squad and barb no bramle, i DO agree that this shouldnt be done unless good barb or bramle. cos it make lilttle sin get aggro q.q

If the sin know what he is doing ( and charmed) then not more squishy than anyone else. and u "can solo several TT bosses to end if party wipes like ahppened in a 1-2 high mode. was charmed. well party was wiped. 350k left on hp with last boss. could solo that to end as i think 81.
(above is not possible in 1-3 tho.. aoe too high..)


did i go off topic.. well anyway
a person making a sin without alrdy knowing the game, yes probly can cause party wipes, but so can a **** cleric/barb. know your stuff and all is good.


weird topic imo XD

lymphocyte

this might be alittle bit off topic but...are all 7x sins in February oracle noobs? bcuz i know it took me and my friends alot longer than 2 months to get to 7x

Risingson - Lost City

lymphocyte wrote: »

this might be alittle bit off topic but...are all 7x sins in February oracle noobs? bcuz i know it took me and my friends alot longer than 2 months to get to 7x

You know, I'm Psychic and I get that a lot. But I only used 3 Oracles, the two from the 35 Supply Stash and one from a 4x quest or something. It's been two months now, I don't understand why people get so surprised when they see Sins and Psys 7x. I get surprised when I see 85+ Sins or Psys, but I think 6x/7x is the normal range after two months.

Heartstone - Dreamweaver

lymphocyte wrote: »

this might be alittle bit off topic but...are all 7x sins in February oracle noobs? bcuz i know it took me and my friends alot longer than 2 months to get to 7x

i'm 82 on sin, i do not gamma. oracled 37-45 tho, but thats rly only a day or two difference..If you play enough u can be 8x. probly possible be higher than me no oracle. but I am quite sure 9x+ by now did oracle alot tho..

Crypsis - Lost City

lymphocyte wrote: »

this might be alittle bit off topic but...are all 7x sins in February oracle noobs? bcuz i know it took me and my friends alot longer than 2 months to get to 7x

3 BHs a day + daily stone + Public Quest 60+ and than the tideborn chain quest that gives you several lvls b:victory.

You dont really need oracles to lvl fast these days. I got lvl 70 in less than 3 weeks without living at wicked pirate.

Shade - Raging Tide

In this thread what I see is overly defensive people (op) and misunderstandings. IMO sins have the highest potential DoT (damage over time) when well geared (lots of interval), while archers, wizards, and many other classes rely on spike damage to do their damage. On trash mobs, spike damage is more desirable, whereas on bosses/minibosses, and higher level players (pvp), speed DPS can easily take them down faster when well geared (though pvp is more debatable).

As for parties, it takes time for people to adjust to new classes, and some people resent the new classes for some unfathomable reason, and don't want to look past the fail players to the people who actually know what they are doing. Stealth in parties is actually one of the biggest issues I've seen, and honestly unless you're like on vent or have really good communication with your party in some other way, stealth shouldn't be used unless you KNOW that if you use it no one will die. I know while partied the only time I've used stealth is when I grabbed aggro off the tank, or if the cleric(s) got killed and I didn't think I could do anything to save the party.

So at the end of the day, the sin is a new class and people won't know exactly how to integrate them fully for awhile, so be patient, and turn the other cheek to the haters.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Crypsis - Lost City wrote: »

You can easily bypass the 10 mobs using earth flame genie and lure the guardian as assassin in fb51. All tho pretty sure you need hp-charm or event pots if you wanna play hero at low 6X. And getting entire party there to kill it will most likely not take that much more time than having the sin solo it. But if someone wanna waste pots + charm and solo a guardian so rest of party can afk go ahead b:chuckle

Other than fb51 i dont even know where sending a sin to kill guardians would be useful. Its rather pointless in fb 59/69/79/89 since there really is no guards there that needs to get killed in the first place. Might be pretty usefull in fb99 SoT/Aba tho. Still you would need hp charm + earth flame genie and high lvl hp pots.

79/99 is tower guardians... not sure how your earth flame is going to work on that. and even for none tower ones... how are you expecting sin to run pass the regular mob and lure it? you can't lure when your in stealth... and the minute you go out of stealth... you'll have the guardian and the mobs you ran pass on your ****.

FitHitDShan - Sanctuary

Thank you for this thread. I got such a good laugh from it. I think the line about avoiding "a **** load of mobs" getting to the door guard in FB51 was the best line. But, the bit about how the party should not worry when the sin grabs bos agro and then disappears cause it will reset was a good one too.

JadeFarmer - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

2. As stated before... your an idoit in light armor... what make you think you can live long enough for the others to get away? And if you stealth... the boss will just pick the next aggro target... unless the entire party is FAR enough. Which goes back to the previous sentence... what make you think you can live long enough for the party to get away.

Might have something to do with the sin being able to grab aggro then use speed skills to run boss away from party before using stealth to reset boss....My sin may be an idiot in light armor but i have saved a cleric a few times doing this.

Does that make me a clever idiot in light armor?

Redmenace - Heavens Tear

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

k and no flames or such things....its only for those in my lvl range(tho it might be usefull for some lower and higher instances aswell)

Thanks for the lecture.

Here's a possible explanation: It's a new class, and many are *not aware* of what they can do.

RedMenace

Redmenace - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Your advice to people teaming with you is telling me "Don't team up with sins, especially not THIS sin, because we sure as hell aren't team players"

Quoted For Truth

maocchi

I honestly like playing my Sin in BH's...The way I see it is that Sins are free agent kind of class. As a Sin, my goal is not to charge in and destroy everything I see in sight. I will keep my eyes open on large map radius than the rest of the party to make sure no "accidents" happen. I try to protect squishies from any strays and walkers that dare approach them, as I believe this is what the teleports are most useful for; I don't need to run after the walkers like the other melee classes do. I just pop in a teleport, immobilize and start whacking them.

The problem I see with most Sins is that they tend to have huge ego on their ability to DD. I see so many Sins actually TRYING to steal BOSS aggro from the tank by chaining Sparks. I know this is a major aggro stealer and they should too. So why do it? On a boss, I apply Rib Strike and just make sure it never stops bleeding. This will not out DPS anyone, but you are being a team player by reducing attack speed and letting the tank do his job rather than causing Clerics more problems by getting your **** waxed in the middle of a fight.

Assassins are a great support class to have in any squad. However on bosses, they do not have a very flashy role. As a fist BM I'm forced to Spark on bosses to keep aggro rather than use HF because the Sin keeps sparking and using HF would just feed his damage output and I would lose aggro.

I love Sins (especially for Bloodpaint, that thing is heaven descent for fist BMs) and I do not mind at all taking them in a squad. I just hope they would put their pride aside and find a suitable role to play.

Foxymage - Harshlands

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

huh how did u get that??? why not better than BMs? we can control our dmg output very well...and besides we have the highest dmg ingame

u defnetily dont have the highest dmg in game

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear

The problem I see with most Sins is that they tend to have huge ego on their ability to DD. I see so many Sins actually TRYING to steal BOSS aggro

wow didn'T know bout that... i usually try to survive and not DDing like mad


and now to all of u

my first mistake. with highest dmg i wasn't refering to the highest possible dmg a class can make but to the DPS. sorry for that stupid mistake.

second mistake was that i never included psys in this whole argument since i have no clue about them...
well anyway just wanted to say sry for being like that. we'll jsut ahve to see what we'll get in the future...sicen we still have some openings with our 79 skills and so on.

p.s there may be more mistakes but i feel stupid as it is now so i'll let them slide^^ btw the original intended topic is to be taken seriously^^ cause i saw that in almsot all of my bh squads and it might help to save time and avoid some drama

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

JadeFarmer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Might have something to do with the sin being able to grab aggro then use speed skills to run boss away from party before using stealth to reset boss....My sin may be an idiot in light armor but i have saved a cleric a few times doing this.

Does that make me a clever idiot in light armor?

It sounds good and all... but have you ever try that? First... you have to grab aggro by pure dd or use genie skill. Quite a few bosses have a 100m aggro distance... so you'll have to run farther then that to reset it or else it'll aggro the entire group when you stealth. And honestly... anyone can save a support cleric by grabbing aggro... doesn't have to be a sin. And resetting a boss? thats the stupidest thing to do. If the cleric is alive... you grab aggro and run away from the party... and not reset the boss. When the cleric have everyone rezzed and buffed you bring the boss back. reseting him is just like flushing all the work you did before down the drain.

Moog - Lost City

Don't get why you're all mad at the thread starter. He's just pointing out certain things sins can do in squad in a fb or hh. Having more knowledge never hurt anyone.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Moog - Lost City wrote: »

Don't get why you're all mad at the thread starter. He's just pointing out certain things sins can do in squad in a fb or hh. Having more knowledge never hurt anyone.

Who's getting mad?

Mad =/= explaining why an idea or theory sounds wrong
Mad =/= general discussion of which class can pour out the most damage, has the highest DPS, etc. etc.
Mad =/= suggesting that the OP was getting too defensive in response to several posts

More knowledge never hurt anybody, true, but it helps if that knowledge is the right knowledge otherwise things go to hell and back again pretty fast.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

I was ramrodding a Wraithgate 202020 yesterday with an assassin (level 70 I think he was, and one of the questers.) When we got to the group of hexocs at the turn out of the second room, he wanted to aggro them all and have them chase him while the rest of us snuck past, then stealth and let them reset. I just continued to pull them one by one, and when we got past where they were and I looked at the distances involved... having a half dozen mobs at my back while I'm trying to pull soris and vipions, but especially soris? Terminally bad idea.

As for the second guard in Secret Frostcovered Grounds... you're talking about the one past Fushma's pillar, right? Exactly what mobs do you think you're sneaking past, that everyone else can't?

Tapion_ - Dreamweaver

I was asked to tank on an fb19 yesterday. I told them hell no your better off with my AC pet tankingb:laugh Seriously people NEVER ask an assassin to tank, we cant hold aggro for ****

MANray_ - Sanctuary

OP while i understand that explaining a sin's squad role is a legitimate concern, it's not entirely clear to me that this thread is about anything other than trolling other posters.

I'm confused abouth which guardians in fb51 it is so much more convenient to have a sin take on. As veno i usually handle this job and and have never had to go through any mobs to get to them except on the rare ocassions when you run into patrols wich a) i can handle and b) is usually a good idea to do, since they have a habit of running into players at the worst possible time.

If barb goes down on a boss fight, a good BM can usually handle the boss while cleric resses. I've even seen archers handle said role. It really is a much a better alternative than having everyone flee while sin tries to gain aggro. Giving people time to run even my pet can usually manage... So i really fail to see how this is an advantage.

And theory aside, i've seen wizzies n archers do big damage. This is fact. Sins have yet to prove themselves. It is only recently that i've begun to see sins do a good job in squads, which means taking mobs down fast (not trying to take over the position of party tank) and using their stealth to everyone's advantage, not just for dancing around mobs like morons. They are yet to establish themselves as DD who've earned the respect of many players, myself included. No doubt they soon will, but it will be through skilled people finding ways to improve a party's work, and not noobs bragging in forums about how op their class is and how we should all get out of the way and let them handle stuff traditional classes can deal with more effectively.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Moog - Lost City wrote: »

Don't get why you're all mad at the thread starter. He's just pointing out certain things sins can do in squad in a fb or hh. Having more knowledge never hurt anyone.

The OP isn't pointing out anything... hes just trying to make the sin sounds more important then they really are. The three points he mentioned... can actually be better accomplished by a BM (save for ONE very special instance).

His sin can stealth pass all the mobs and kill guardian only really applies to wined fb51 where he can get to the 2nd guardian without aggroing like 2-3 mobs... big time savor there... lol. All other fb guardian has adds or are towers with more adds. If the sin stealth pass regular mobs to get to the guardians. He can't kill it... cause of the adds will kill him. He can't lure it cause hes stealth. He can't go unstealth and lure it cause of the mobs that he stealth pass will be cutting off any escape route.

His argurment and sin can paralyze mobs in case arch/wiz takes aggro. Come on... this can be way better accomplished by a BM who has three times as much stun skills.

His final arguement that sin can lure boss away and reset. In all honestly, reseting boss is the VERY last resort. I would rather to have a BM kite the boss around until the entire squad is rezzed. Even in luring the boss away... a BM has more health and more sprint skills to accomplish that. And any half decent BM knows how to reset bosses... stealth is not the only way.

The sin brings nothing to the table that a BM can't do... except some extra dd. So they should aleast know their place and stay there.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

There's one guardian at the pillar that's a pain to get to without aggroing everything, having a veno lure that can make it smoother.

The sin can, I guess, hunt it in place as an equal alternative.

The rest... The first one is directly in your way, the one after fushma is a detour, but anyone can do it - no mobs in the way, the third one I just mentioned. Not seeing it, really.

Nelae - Heavens Tear

As a cleric i gotta say, any other class > sins!

Sry, aside fail ones that power leveled to high levels i yet have to squad with any good ones and i am sure this wont be very soon, seeing how things stand in PWi b:bye

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear

I opened the thread to show some mistakes squads make when squaded with a sin. I had those problems very often in squads. If u were able to read you would notice that my intention wasn't to show that sins are very important....i saif IF ur squaded with a sin u should consider some points..

His sin can stealth pass all the mobs and kill guardian only really applies to wined fb51

i never wined fb51. thats just stupid and a waste of coin i can do it perfectly fine without wine

His argurment and sin can paralyze mobs in case arch/wiz takes aggro. Come on... this can be way better accomplished by a BM who has three times as much stun skills.

the Bm is on the frontline and fighting mobs . we sins are some kind of backup to prevent some stray mobs or like already said aggroed mobs from killing other squishys cause archers are nerved at close range and wizzis are squishy aswell. or do u think u can run around fighting everything....Bms concentrate on theier job and we do our

All other fb guardian has adds or are towers with more adds. If the sin stealth pass regular mobs to get to the guardians. He can't kill it... cause of the adds will kill him.

i can kill it or do u think we are that weak. and i can go out of stealth and lure. its not overloaded with mobs that u can't have a safe spot. except the towers but pls that is not an argument for takin sins as ****.

His final arguement that sin can lure boss away and reset. In all honestly, reseting boss is the VERY last resort. I would rather to have a BM kite the boss around until the entire squad is rezzed. Even in luring the boss away... a BM has more health and more sprint skills to accomplish that. And any half decent BM knows how to reset bosses... stealth is not the only way.

reset squad. i lure bosses to prevent dying in the first place. and Bms more sprint skills? think again we have the same amount of sprint skills.....

and again to remind u so u can get that into that lil brain of urs. those poitns i mentioned occured whe squads had A SIN in their squad so Bm is not in the picture. it was to show some squads who happen to have a sin in their squad what to do with him and how to react in some situations. again i repeat the problem is not about Bms beeing better but about sins in squad and some of their Possibilities in squads. i hope u got it now. and the previous argument about highest Dmg should be clear cause i already apologized for my mistake. Kiyoshi pls contact me if u still didn't understand what i mean. i'd be happy to help

JadeFarmer - Dreamweaver

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It sounds good and all... but have you ever try that? First... you have to grab aggro by pure dd or use genie skill. Quite a few bosses have a 100m aggro distance... so you'll have to run farther then that to reset it or else it'll aggro the entire group when you stealth. And honestly... anyone can save a support cleric by grabbing aggro... doesn't have to be a sin. And resetting a boss? thats the stupidest thing to do. If the cleric is alive... you grab aggro and run away from the party... and not reset the boss. When the cleric have everyone rezzed and buffed you bring the boss back. reseting him is just like flushing all the work you did before down the drain.

If i tried to run boss away from party, wait for cleric to rez, heal and buff those who died then run back i would almost certaintly die.

Once speed skills have run out boss would quickly catch me and make monster chow out of me in seconds.

Like OP my sin is mid level and thats what im talking about, if i see things going wrong i do my best to keep cleric alive even if it means giving my own life as its better cleric is only surviver for quicker party rez.
If used right the sin is a good squad support class.

Im not knocking other older class's just saying that the new class's can do the job in squads.

I think the OP made some good points but could of said it in a better way so it did'nt look look a QQ thread.

Basch - Lost City

Frankly all I'm seeing here is a bunch of people flaming about a class that they don't understand and don't want to take the time to understand. Assassins have the capability to have an attack speed of 5 per second. This is the same possibility that a demon fist/claw blademaster can have. The difference between the two is the number of crits. DPS is at any given time and essential part of a pve existence. Mages are first and foremost a pvp class. Pve wise they blow. It is much more beneficial to take a bm or an archer to an HH run than it is to take a mage. I myself play an 81 sin and I have more than once out DD an archer and take aggro before them. If you haven't played the class, take the time to just look at the skills or even look at the stats of the weapons that they get. The damage on daggers is much more than fists. To the OP, I agree with you on the points made, but you could have went about it in a better way.

maocchi

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The OP isn't pointing out anything... hes just trying to make the sin sounds more important then they really are. The three points he mentioned... can actually be better accomplished by a BM (save for ONE very special instance).

His sin can stealth pass all the mobs and kill guardian only really applies to wined fb51 where he can get to the 2nd guardian without aggroing like 2-3 mobs... big time savor there... lol. All other fb guardian has adds or are towers with more adds. If the sin stealth pass regular mobs to get to the guardians. He can't kill it... cause of the adds will kill him. He can't lure it cause hes stealth. He can't go unstealth and lure it cause of the mobs that he stealth pass will be cutting off any escape route.

His argurment and sin can paralyze mobs in case arch/wiz takes aggro. Come on... this can be way better accomplished by a BM who has three times as much stun skills.

His final arguement that sin can lure boss away and reset. In all honestly, reseting boss is the VERY last resort. I would rather to have a BM kite the boss around until the entire squad is rezzed. Even in luring the boss away... a BM has more health and more sprint skills to accomplish that. And any half decent BM knows how to reset bosses... stealth is not the only way.

The sin brings nothing to the table that a BM can't do... except some extra dd. So they should aleast know their place and stay there.

I would advise playing a Sin firsthand before making any assumptions. Sins are more tactical than they seem. It's not all about stunlocking like many people assume is the only thing BMs are good for. A good Sin would know when to apply Freeze, when to apply stun, when to use the chi gain skills, when to sleep the target so the other skills will finish recharging and he can do it all over again, and when to squeeze in a spike skill in between the chains.

Also again I say, teleport (with very reasonably low recharge time) is extremely useful when the other melee classes are too far away to reach a stray mob in time before squishy classes are in the aggro range. This combined with the two sprint skills (same number as a BM btw, so Sins actually win in the mobility department), Sins make extremely capable stray killers.

I have a friend that also plays a Sin and he's HORRIBLE at playing tactically, even going as far as to auto attacking right after sleeping a target. Many people don't know how to play the class properly yet and there is a long way until the class is able to prove itself, but there's no harm in giving them a chance to show their potential (which is definitely there).

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear

To the OP, I agree with you on the points made, but you could have went about it in a better way.

i will take that into consideration for further threads^^

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

and again to remind u so u can get that into that lil brain of urs. those poitns i mentioned occured whe squads had A SIN in their squad so Bm is not in the picture. it was to show some squads who happen to have a sin in their squad what to do with him and how to react in some situations. again i repeat the problem is not about Bms beeing better but about sins in squad and some of their Possibilities in squads. i hope u got it now. and the previous argument about highest Dmg should be clear cause i already apologized for my mistake. Kiyoshi pls contact me if u still didn't understand what i mean. i'd be happy to help

of course when you can't find the real thing... you get a ****ter thing as replacement. i am saying that the bm can do anything the squad needs better then the sin. and if you can't find a bm... by all means get a sin. the sins are just dds with a few stuns... nothing more. arch's stun and wiz's seal works just as fine... so ppl need to learn to use them.

JadeFarmer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If i tried to run boss away from party, wait for cleric to rez, heal and buff those who died then run back i would almost certaintly die.

Once speed skills have run out boss would quickly catch me and make monster chow out of me in seconds.

Like OP my sin is mid level and thats what im talking about, if i see things going wrong i do my best to keep cleric alive even if it means giving my own life as its better cleric is only surviver for quicker party rez.
If used right the sin is a good squad support class.

Im not knocking other older class's just saying that the new class's can do the job in squads.

I think the OP made some good points but could of said it in a better way so it did'nt look look a QQ thread.

You need to learn to play an arch then. I can easily take aggro from similar level bosses and live long enough for a full party rez. And the bosses that I can't live through (1-2 shots me)... no sin can live through that either.