Sage Wizard VS Demon Wizard : the full thread

Brab - Lost City

RedSpeller - Sanctuary wrote: »

And generally, the sutra animation is screaming "Plz stun/seal me".

LOL

Just... LOL.

You don't PVP much, do you?

MagicHamsta - Lost City

RedSpeller - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well I didn't say he was owning everyone, I just said he was killing people without difficulties like Mumin was saying. It was the only link I had under my hand when I answered. I know you're demon too so if you have made some vids prof (or have better ones), I would be glad to see them ^^.

b:surrender
me already asked for some vids but he prefers to use fraps instead of xfire (xfire = free.) ^.^

so unless someone buys him fraps he won't make a vid.
=(
b:sad

prof

xfire doesn't work in game for me actually.

eppc

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I really don't have time to tell you how bad you are at this game... but this just made me lol. Assuming you are arcane at 90+ (which every decent mage is) you need the pdef. The base arcane gear has high mres and low pdef... which you balance with shards and belt/neck/mods on other gear. I already have a ton of earth resist... and I'm still short on pdef.. only a n00b would think you need more earth resist.

you just went hopeless from the fact demon stone barrier < sage barrier.
for mages 150% pdef + 120% earth res > 150% earth res + 120% pdef
as i said balance your def.

Damaged - Lost City wrote: »

replace "full" with "troll" in topic title

/endtopic

you are the troll here... people are making out their minds here and you ruin it... pathetic.

prof wrote: »

my comparison > yours

8/10 skills are better dark.

Sancrkf - Heavens Tear wrote: »

<--- timing freak... going demon... thank you

okay you think demon is better i don't denile, in some cases it is better, but dont think doing sage stuff.

Adroit - Lost City

eppc wrote: »

you just went hopeless from the fact demon stone barrier < sage barrier.
for mages 150% pdef + 120% earth res > 150% earth res + 120% pdef
as i said balance your def.

Lmao this has got to be a troll, nobody is that stupid

CeliaZ - Sanctuary

I thought Amour closed the demon/sage discussion by 'It all comes down to personal playstyle and preferences' ?? Let's just follow him and shut up in this thread....

Hizaki - Dreamweaver

I gots goldfish and none of them are smiling

Kristoph - Lost City

RedSpeller - Sanctuary wrote: »

The problem with sutra is the cooldown, 1 minute cooldown is long.
I prefer demon wellspring, getting 1 spark isnt that hard in a fight and its spammable.

I've -21% from gear and with the -25% from demon spark I really feel the difference. You forget to take in account that -chan also affect cast time whereas stura don't. With the channeling bonus we get from demon version of our skills we can gain back the spark and even more chi, I do it already with demon spark, and I know it'll be possible with wellspring (you loose 3 seconds with the demon spark animation which mean the -25% bonus only last 12sec, whereas wellspring is instant with -20%, the 5% you loose is compensated by the instant cast and its a free divine pyro and 20 more chi).

For the received damage side, don't forget demon wizard have a higher blink distance, FoW with a lowered cooldown. And generally, the sutra animation is screaming "Plz stun/seal me".

-chan affects casting time? Since when? Also, blink distance hardly matters. Unless you're fighting archers it won't do that much good.

eppc wrote: »

you just went hopeless from the fact demon stone barrier < sage barrier.
for mages 150% pdef + 120% earth res > 150% earth res + 120% pdef
as i said balance your def.

LOL

prof

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

-chan affects casting time? Since when? Also, blink distance hardly matters. Unless you're fighting archers it won't do that much good.

it does, indirectly. by itself, -chant from items shortens the cast time. this is nullified by anything that removes all chant(ie: sutra, pill), but is easily noticeable after dark fury. I've seen some mages with all -chant gear(for pve purposes, and duels, I assume), and they use skills with nearly the same effect as sutra, if not more efficiently.

Kristoph - Lost City

prof wrote: »

it does, indirectly. by itself, -chant from items shortens the cast time. this is nullified by anything that removes all chant(ie: sutra, pill), but is easily noticeable after dark fury. I've seen some mages with all -chant gear(for pve purposes, and duels, I assume), and they use skills with nearly the same effect as sutra, if not more efficiently.

Casting time is static and doesn't change until you reach near-max channeling... with channeling gear and red bubble my casting time doesn't change at all so I don't see why it would otherwise.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Casting time is static and doesn't change until you reach near-max channeling... with channeling gear and red bubble my casting time doesn't change at all so I don't see why it would otherwise.

Sorry but this is NOT TRUE. Mage at you level should know it already. I have -12% channeling. I took watch and measuring. My Morning Dew with -12% channeling gear is almost 1s shorter than without channeling gear. So -channeling gear has affect to channeling time FOR SURE. Of of course best result is with long channeling spells.

Kristoph - Lost City

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sorry but this is NOT TRUE. Mage at you level should know it already. I have -12% channeling. I took watch and measuring. My Morning Dew with -12% channeling gear is almost 1s shorter than without channeling gear. So -channeling gear has affect to channeling time FOR SURE. Of of course best result is with long channeling spells.

Do you even know what casting time is? Read your skill description please.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Do you even know what casting time is? Read your skill description please.

Ups, sorry. My bad. My apologies. Of course I mean channeling time not casting time.b:chuckle
So you right casting time doesn't stuck with -channeling gear.

mazzle

My god, this thread is still going on? You mean it actually wasnt a troll?b:laugh

I had not realised -channeling affects casting time but if it is true then it just makes going demon all the better, fast casting spells, higher phy defence or hp depends on how your building it, that extra 30% phy def give more option with sharding, hailstorm seem pretty reliable too, and it goes off rast enough with just 20% channeling reduction, pyrogram, divine pryogram and glacial snare gets .4sec reduction from upgrading, combined with -chan from gear and wellspring/spark thats pretty high dmg in short amount of time especially if the casting time is reduced. Only thing i'm sad about is demon dragon is really 20% chance to save mana instead of saving spark.

I dont see the point in discussing which is better, its up to the way you play the game, sages pvp much different than demons like iv said before in another thread so why use a sage to fight like a demon visa versa?

prof

I'm fully aware of what chant and cast is, the difference and how each of them play a role in using my skills. I'm also fully aware that the animation of my skills are shorter because the -chant time from the items I wear make it so.

I've done plenty of test playing with sutra and fury, the animation after fury is definitely faster than with sutra.

Kristoph - Lost City

mazzle wrote: »

I had not realised -channeling affects casting time but if it is true

It doesn't. -30% channeling from gear plus red bubble = no difference. At all.

mazzle

prof wrote: »

I'm fully aware of what chant and cast is, the difference and how each of them play a role in using my skills. I'm also fully aware that the animation of my skills are shorter because the -chant time from the items I wear make it so.

I've done plenty of test playing with sutra and fury, the animation after fury is definitely faster than with sutra.

People wont just believe it with words, please make a video and post it on youtube as evidence so PWIs biased sages will shut up about demon being bad.

Silver - Dreamweaver

*grins* Demon Vs. Sage Wiz, when it comes down 2 it I pick Sage mainly cuz 1. they produce higher numbers
2. They get chi way quicker and even if u have chi pots, that skills is still beastly.
3. Fire/Water debuffs from skills- this gives you a good upper hand when ur Eartheido strike is cooldown.
4. Critting manchines past lvl 99, Holy BID is the best skill ever...period
5. Small Aoe Silence- Very useful even though it doesnt seem like it.

Now yes, Demon have higher Phy defense and thats beast. Sure they have some skills that increase chant time and thats beast. Sure they can control a person better and good 1v1 but lets be serious, as a wiz ur not going out alone till ur around 90+, 99+ and even then you are a wiz because you do Damage, not because you can control your opponet, I would rather kill the oppoent and have some cuts/scratches then having "better surviablity" but hey that might just be me, alot of people go dark anyway *dont kno why* but Heaven is the way 2 go.

mazzle

Silver - Dreamweaver wrote: »

*grins* Demon Vs. Sage Wiz, when it comes down 2 it I pick Sage mainly cuz 1. they produce higher numbers
2. They get chi way quicker and even if u have chi pots, that skills is still beastly.
3. Fire/Water debuffs from skills- this gives you a good upper hand when ur Eartheido strike is cooldown.
4. Critting manchines past lvl 99, Holy BID is the best skill ever...period
5. Small Aoe Silence- Very useful even though it doesnt seem like it.

Now yes, Demon have higher Phy defense and thats beast. Sure they have some skills that increase chant time and thats beast. Sure they can control a person better and good 1v1 but lets be serious, as a wiz ur not going out alone till ur around 90+, 99+ and even then you are a wiz because you do Damage, not because you can control your opponet, I would rather kill the oppoent and have some cuts/scratches then having "better surviablity" but hey that might just be me, alot of people go dark anyway *dont kno why* but Heaven is the way 2 go.

Have you even played either of the 2?

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

mazzle wrote: »

Have you even played either of the 2?

Go demon if you want. If you are sure, that he is better. But sage has bigger damage and lower demon channeling time for few second or milliseconds doesn't have important role to me. Much important for me is have still lot of chi = huge damage.b:pleased

prof

you all sound like broken records.

"big damage". sounds like the pinoys I play with. the damage difference is negligable, I prefer the crit from my passives. the -resistance skills are useless. if you're going to brag about -20% resist, I'll be awesome and brag about my -60% resist skill.

if you think all skills are in favour of holy, you've never seen what each skill can do.

if you think dark can't kill, you're just a biased twit. both kill just fine.

CeliaZ - Sanctuary

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG

mazzle

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Go demon if you want. If you are sure, that he is better. But sage has bigger damage and lower demon channeling time for few second or milliseconds doesn't have important role to me. Much important for me is have still lot of chi = huge damage.b:pleased

I can tell you browse the forums often but you havent convinced me you have any idea you know what you are doing or talking about, mage it self going arcane already does big dmg, demon was designed to kill fast without using massive amount of chi and if you understood that you wouldnt post all the **** you said about demons in this thread and others , you wana use 399 chi to kill 1 person like iv seen in videos, go right ahead, no one is stopping you. Last time i checked i went demon and i can still use sutra and ulties.

Demon builds go with high defence, high channeling and high enough crite to get the job done and 10% crite with or without mastery imo is enough if you can afford more and keep high channeling go right ahead.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

mazzle wrote: »

I can tell you browse the forums often but you havent convinced me you have any idea you know what you are doing or talking about, mage it self going arcane already does big dmg, demon was designed to kill fast without using massive amount of chi and if you understood that you wouldnt post all the **** you said about demons in this thread and others , you wana use 399 chi to kill 1 person like iv seen in videos, go right ahead, no one is stopping you. Last time i checked i went demon and i can still use sutra and ulties.

Demon builds go with high defence, high channeling and high enough crite to get the job done and 10% crite with or without mastery imo is enough if you can afford more and keep high channeling go right ahead.

OOO You talking about 25% faster channeling time for 15s?
b:laugh Or which faster channeling time? Few milliseconds?b:laugh Or you talking about 1% more critical in each element? Which is absolutely nothing? Or about what. Higher stone barrier which is useless after ~8000 def? And yes you can use ultimates it just depend how often.b:laugh

mazzle

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

OOO You talking about 25% faster channeling time for 15s?
b:laugh Or which faster channeling time? Few milliseconds?b:laugh Or you talking about 1% more critical in each element? Which is absolutely nothing? Or about what. Higher stone barrier which is useless after ~8000 def? And yes you can use ultimates it just depend how often.b:laugh

Again prove how naive you are, demon channeling skills stacks with whats provided on gear + reduced channeling on skills with demon upgrades and if you knew anything about pvp or anything about your mage youd realise that more defence you have increase your survival % due to the fact, all other classes do phy dmg and even 1k extra defence can determine if you're 1shot or not, like i said before, demon's meant to kill with less use of chi with high channeling, phy defence and crite rate.

Kristoph - Lost City

mazzle wrote: »

I can tell you browse the forums often but you havent convinced me you have any idea you know what you are doing or talking about, mage it self going arcane already does big dmg, demon was designed to kill fast without using massive amount of chi and if you understood that you wouldnt post all the **** you said about demons in this thread and others , you wana use 399 chi to kill 1 person like iv seen in videos, go right ahead, no one is stopping you. Last time i checked i went demon and i can still use sutra and ulties.

Demon builds go with high defence, high channeling and high enough crite to get the job done and 10% crite with or without mastery imo is enough if you can afford more and keep high channeling go right ahead.

Except that you're overglorifying the demon skills. Demon kills without using a lot of chi? How exactly? There's a few skills which increase damage output...

Gush - static damage boost, 600 before all reductions
Sandstorm - static damage boost, 1200 before all reductions

Now, I will say demon Sandstorm is great, but when you highly refine your weapon, Sage masteries will pretty much makes the difference rather small... except sage gets an increase on other skills as well.

Pyrogram - Channeling lowered from 1.5 to 1.2
Divine Pyro - Channeling lowered from 3.0 to 2.5
Glacial Snare - Channeling lowered from 2.5 to 2.1

Pyrogram and glacial snare are definately nice... but glacial snare isn't a skill that you spam due to the cooldown. Divine pyro... is pretty much just bad, to be honest. Sandstorm is just as fast and does more damage. Not worth using unless you really stack a ****load of channeling since the casting time is only 1.0s.

So tell me, where does this incredibly high damage output demon wizards have come from? Pyrogram helps but the demon version gains no damage... unlike the sage version thanks to fire mastery, so I doubt the difference is going to be epic enough to make demon wizards capable of killing targets that much faster 1v1.

mazzle

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

Except that you're overglorifying the demon skills. Demon kills without using a lot of chi? How exactly? There's a few skills which increase damage output...

Gush - static damage boost, 600 before all reductions
Sandstorm - static damage boost, 1200 before all reductions

Now, I will say demon Sandstorm is great, but when you highly refine your weapon, Sage masteries will pretty much makes the difference rather small... except sage gets an increase on other skills as well.

Pyrogram - Channeling lowered from 1.5 to 1.2
Divine Pyro - Channeling lowered from 3.0 to 2.5
Glacial Snare - Channeling lowered from 2.5 to 2.1

Pyrogram and glacial snare are definately nice... but glacial snare isn't a skill that you spam due to the cooldown. Divine pyro... is pretty much just bad, to be honest. Sandstorm is just as fast and does more damage. Not worth using unless you really stack a ****load of channeling since the casting time is only 1.0s.

So tell me, where does this incredibly high damage output demon wizards have come from? Pyrogram helps but the demon version gains no damage... unlike the sage version thanks to fire mastery, so I doubt the difference is going to be epic enough to make demon wizards capable of killing targets that much faster 1v1.

I never said anything about spamming glacial, it has a 15 second cooldown which is why its the kind of skill you use after charm ticks, i think a ds from a mele target combined with wellspring to take advantage of pyro,dp,gs followed by smaller spells is enough to take down HP before it ticks again.

Sage does more dmg in a single hit with high refined weapon and extra masteries yes that's why i prefer the sage mastery to demon but demon str comes from its attacks speed, why not take advantage of the reduced channeling skills added after upgrading?

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

mazzle wrote: »

Again prove how naive you are, demon channeling skills stacks with whats provided on gear + reduced channeling on skills with demon upgrades and if you knew anything about pvp or anything about your mage youd realise that more defence you have increase your survival % due to the fact, all other classes do phy dmg and even 1k extra defence can determine if you're 1shot or not, like i said before, demon's meant to kill with less use of chi with high channeling, phy defence and crite rate.

1k + extra defense after 8000def gives you very small damage reduction
Example. formula. 100xdef/(def + 40x level)
sage. 100x8000/(8000 + 40x95)= 67,8 % reduction
demon. 100x9000/(9000 + 40x95)= 70,3%
CONCLUSION
+1000 def give you 2.5% more damage reduction. Enough?b:pleased

mazzle

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

1k + extra defense after 8000def gives you very small damage reduction
Example. formula. 100xdef/(def + 40x level)
sage. 100x8000/(8000 + 40x95)= 67,8 % reduction
demon. 100x9000/(9000 + 40x95)= 70,3%
CONCLUSION
+1000 def give you 2.5% more damage reduction. Enough?b:pleased

Mum even if the dmg reduction isnt significantly higher between 8000 and 9000 there's still the option of getting more HP instead of raising pass 8k, so demon still gets a better survival % if build correctly.

and krostoph sutra gives like 4 spells off in 6 seconds, yes that's fast with high dmg because of the masteries and 99 skills that allow you to use the dooms without running out of chi (50% chance to use 1 spark is what im refering to), but demon potential with just -50% channeling

gs 1.05+1.8 sec = 2.85
dp 1.25+1.0 sec = 2.2
pyro .06+0.8 sec =1.4
which total up to 6.4 seconds and wellspring gives 15 sec

In no way am i saying demon is better than sage because i like both, im just trying to get rid of biased comments/thoughts about demon and its capabilities.

Kristoph - Lost City

I just don't see where the "demon mages can kill targets without chi" comes from, because sages can pretty much do the same thing... demon mages do it better yes but the difference isn't what some people like to make it out to be.