Why are Venos without Hercs considered useless?

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

You dont like it, tough. And btw, if you're gonna compare, get a mob with stats that are higher than Gouf's. That's hardly a comparison.

read the links, the mob you tanked is weaker than gouf. that is why it is a horrible example of saying 'i can tank squad lunar on my armored bear.' once again, loopholes.

And I do tank MOBS in fb89 with that bear.

no one said you couldnt, i said its not impressive.
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/8507 <- hare's stats. weaker than 1-1 squad chin
http://www.pwdatabase.com/mob/14727 <-chin

So leave me alone and pick on some other veno for a change. Since you like dishing ****, why not pick on heavy venos while you're at it?

i already do that if you havent seen my musings on reikara's heavy armored build guide.

you keep using smoke and mirrors, changing your story via loopholes and ambiguity, and its just sad. you started this argument like non herc users were not to be taken lightly, nd behaved as if you were living proof. now, im just showing the world, youre just really pathetic.

I'm sure if I wanted to I could tank TT bosses with my pet. Oh that's right, I do tank TT bosses with my armored bear.

source:http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3372032&postcount=374

and this:

I said I tank TT bosses, you wanna get specific?

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3382072&postcount=462
armored bear cant tank anything other than chin.

I tank with my armored bear. I do FF, Lunar, and other things with it

in this post you try to make it seem like you can be all cool with your plain bear. acting like your bear can do herc stuff:

If I can tank just as well as a herc veno in lunar, FF, and other areas that people commonly use hercs for, why is there a need for one? If you can answer that, you stuck up pain in my ****, then I will stop arguing.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3371972&postcount=371

you cant tank them, you cna handle 1-2 weak mobs there.

AND THEN YOU VIDEO CAP THE NOOBIEST MOB ON SQUAD MODE LOL.


but hey you warranted it yourself. so ill leave this here, and just go away now. you obviously are a fail veno.

But if people wanna continue to tear me apart, be my guest ^^ Just don't expect me to say anything witty. lmao

Belial - Heavens Tear

Signako - Heavens Tear wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_3FO3pdApc

There is the video of _River tanking a mob inside Lunar Squad Mode. Level 87 veno, and level 87 normal armored bear. No help, no buffs nothing, except her own power. The videos quality is low but shrinking a 1.17gig file(taking with fraps) and putting it on youtube will do that. The mob is level 90. So there you go, _River and myself are done with this post, she has proven she can tank a mob in squad mode, and she should not, and will not have to prove anything else. Also before you think its single mode, remember single mode monsters have higher level, and thus yellow to me. These are white which means Squad mode. So like we said we are done, talk all you want, but she has proven what she can do.

I'm sure you can understand people's surprise since it is VERY different to say 'I can tank a few mobs in Lunar' to saying 'I can tank Lunar' since the latter implies you can tank the whole instance .

The video was nice, and kudos for killing the mob which is good, but with this you demonstrate how it slooooooww it is. Sorry to say it, but 5 minutes to spamheal and kill one normal mob.... well it really isn't my idea of fun and it doesn't equal being able to 'tank as well as a Herc Veno'. Also... is that the level 50 Supply Box weapon or are my eyes misleading me? >_>

Nobody is trying to tell anyone to get a Herc, just pointing out the fact that without a Herc a veno can tank fewer mobs, at a much slower pace and with added risk (i.e. with Bear's low dmg, risk of losing aggro is bigger than with a higher dmg dealing pet).

To answer the original question, venos without Hercs are only 'useless' in certain situations where tanking is required. I don't believe useless is the right word though (too emotive), hence why so many people love replying in this thread .

Alyyy - Sanctuary

Belial - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also... is that the level 50 Supply Box weapon or are my eyes misleading me? >_>

erm.. no its TT80 i think...

_River - Heavens Tear

First, why do people find it SUCH a big deal if I don't want a herc? I like the way the game goes for me. Its just a freaking game -_- So I don't want a herc. Its not the end of the game. The game still continues. Whether you guys like to admit it or not.

I was generalizing in all of my statments. You want to get picky about stuff, then just out right ask me. Stop beating around the bush and just tell me straight out or ask me straight out what you wanna know. You have doubted me time and again, yes I made noob mistakes. I'm not perfect and I will freely admit that ok?

I don't read the heavy veno stuff. It was just an example. Sorry you couldn't read my sarcasm. But then again, you don't know me, you don't know how I act, and this is just a computer, so reading sarcasm is somewhat difficult given those circumstances.

Great job quoting me by the way. I don't look at stats, ok? I pull out my bear and just go for it. Stats on monsters don't matter to me unless its something I'm taming. Therefore your quotes of databse are useless to me. All i care about is how much I see it hitting my pet for. That, to me, tells me if I can tank it or not. If I can't tank it, oh well. I don't get all butt hurt about it. I move on or find someone who can tank it for me.

I do tank TT bosses, yes I never mentioned which ones, but no one bothered to ask me. Its not my fault you assumed that I tanked every boss. I tank what mobs and bosses I need and thats it. I don't experiment. Like I said, I base my "tanking" ability on how hard I see something hitting my pet.

Your insults, or attempt at, don't phase me, like you are hoping. Your words make me more determined to prove stereotypes wrong. I have already admitted I'm not as good in some cases as a herc veno. What gives you the right to tear me apart further? Ah, right, I forgot, you're a forum troll and have to resort to some method of trying to get me upset.

Look, considering that I can do these things without a herc, that's plenty good for me. it actually is kind of a bragging right in some cases because it shows that not all of us need them. However, I wasn't bragging, I was merely showing those that didn't believe that a non-herc veno can do a lot of things similar to a herc veno.

It wasn't a noob mob by the way. I don't have all the free time in the world to clear Frigoris all the way to the next valley with Shoveals. So forgive me for picking a mob that was convenient. Please also realize, you have what... 5 levels on me? So naturally, since you have "better" (or so we hope) magic attack, you can do "better". I did tell you I was a light armor veno. So I'm not built for "tanking" things like most arcane venos or even heavy venos. I'm mostly a lure and DD. Tanking for me is a good experience. So forgive me if people who are simple like me enjoy the small things out of a game. And appreciate an accomplishment like that. It may not seem like one to you, who may or may not have a herc, but to me, its amazing and I appreciate the fact that I dont need a herc for it.

I have mentioned many many times, I like to enjoy the game. If that makes me a fail veno because I don't do things like other venos, I don't want the same pets they do, I can't do as much as they do, so be it. I'm happy with where I am.

This is the TT80 Endless Ambiguity that I am using. Not the supply stash from level 50. That one is blue, with a blue glow.

Nelae - Heavens Tear

River, just leave it alone. They play a class just to get a herc, not even worth to argue with them.

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

Ok, can someone just put a bomb in this forum?

It's already on fire.

We just need a bomb >.>

@River_: You can't argue with the close-minded and/or I'm-Right-People. Just leave them be. If they want to waste $200 for pixels that are ugly why fight em?

_River - Heavens Tear

Belial - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm sure you can understand people's surprise since it is VERY different to say 'I can tank a few mobs in Lunar' to saying 'I can tank Lunar' since the latter implies you can tank the whole instance .

The video was nice, and kudos for killing the mob which is good, but with this you demonstrate how it slooooooww it is. Sorry to say it, but 5 minutes to spamheal and kill one normal mob.... well it really isn't my idea of fun and it doesn't equal being able to 'tank as well as a Herc Veno'. Also... is that the level 50 Supply Box weapon or are my eyes misleading me? >_>

Nobody is trying to tell anyone to get a Herc, just pointing out the fact that without a Herc a veno can tank fewer mobs, at a much slower pace and with added risk (i.e. with Bear's low dmg, risk of losing aggro is bigger than with a higher dmg dealing pet).

To answer the original question, venos without Hercs are only 'useless' in certain situations where tanking is required. I don't believe useless is the right word though (too emotive), hence why so many people love replying in this thread .

And I have already recanted on some statements given that I was too general in my statement, forgive me for that. And yes it takes a while, but I don't care, I figure its worth it in the end.

And I agree with you, those of us without hercs aren't totally useless. But as I've also mentioned before, that has been answered many times already so I think we've exhausted this thread.

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear

*hands a bomb*

Belial - Heavens Tear

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is the TT80 Endless Ambiguity that I am using. Not the supply stash from level 50. That one is blue, with a blue glow.

Apologies - what a similar skin!

It's not a big deal if you don't want a Herc, just like it's not a big deal if someone doesn't want you in their team for the lack of one.

_River - Heavens Tear

@Nelae:

You have a good point. I've been done with this thread since the video. Its just bothersome that he keeps attempting to upset me in some way.

@Kittennice:

If i had a bomb I'd give it to ya

Belial - Heavens Tear

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You have a good point. I've been done with this thread since the video. Its just bothersome that he keeps attempting to upset me in some way.

<-- not a he, not trying to upset. b:surrender

Just discussing...

_River - Heavens Tear

Belial - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Apologies - what a similar skin!

It's not a big deal if you don't want a Herc, just like it's not a big deal if someone doesn't want you in their team for the lack of one.

Agreed, but that wasn't the intent of my argument, forgive me if I mislead anyone to think it. I just merely wanted to point out, that we can in fact do a lot of similar things without them. That was all I was trying to say ^^ Sorry if I came across rude or mean. It was unintentional.

_River - Heavens Tear

Belial - Heavens Tear wrote: »

<-- not a he, not trying to upset. b:surrender

Just discussing...

No no not you ^^ Tear from Sanc

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear

I didn't read everything but basically u don't WANT an herc (for some reason) but still u think u shouldn't be considered as inferior to our eyes ?

Belial - Heavens Tear

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I just merely wanted to point out, that we can in fact do a lot of similar things without them.

We definitely can do a lot of great things with our repertoire of pets! My current favourite is a Ninetail Fox for luring because I am too lazy to levelup a Kowlin b:chuckle.

_River - Heavens Tear

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I didn't read everything but basically u don't WANT an herc (for some reason) but still u think u shouldn't be considered as inferior to our eyes ?

You almost have it. I don't want to be considered completely useless like most people think we are. Yes there are areas, as I have already admitted (and yes I saw you haven't read everything, thus why I'm explaining again), that I cannot do like a herc veno can. I accept that and am okay with it.

_River - Heavens Tear

Belial - Heavens Tear wrote: »

We definitely can do a lot of great things with our repertoire of pets! My current favourite is a Ninetail Fox for luring because I am too lazy to levelup a Kowlin b:chuckle.

hehe ninetails FTW. but I have to say I prefered my kowlin :P

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

Yay ^^ -Sets bomb down-



-Runs away-


This thread is...

CLOSED

Hergaeer - Heavens Tear

i love you!

_River - Heavens Tear

*runs frantically away from herg* nuuuuuuuuu b:infuriated

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You almost have it. I don't want to be considered completely useless like most people think we are. Yes there are areas, as I have already admitted (and yes I saw you haven't read everything, thus why I'm explaining again), that I cannot do like a herc veno can. I accept that and am okay with it.

well, doing a common example I always accept venos with or without herc in TTs, many common pets like the golem, as far as I know, deal more damage than herc so are better for DDing against the silly [?] bosses...

_River - Heavens Tear

DDing I mostly use my kowlin, their attack is supposed to be quicker and dealing more damage even without skills (as has sadly been my experience. sadly because it usually ends up pulling aggro). It also depends on the cases that warrant it. I know the bear has threaten on it and, on a boss that someone else is tanking, I usually use that so the boss itself deals less damage to the tank. I can't spam it or my bear will pull aggro.

I try to balance the pets with what the bosses will do. the harder they hit, the more likely I am to use my bear for the threaten, or even my cuddly pup. but if its something that a barb is tanking, I know barbs have an ability that does the same, as do sword blademasters. so in those cases I would probably choose a different pet.

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

WTF?! This thread still has life on its life bar?b:angry

>.> I must use a different method....

Aisubeki - Sanctuary

River, dont try to take too much offense to Tear as you seem to be by the looks of your responses. Its difficult to comprehend his behavior unless you know his backgroud. Its part of a series of complex disorders, with the main contributors to this coup, 'Borderline Personality Disorder' and 'Oppositial Defiant Disorder' appearing as the leads on stage. Being his wife comes with acouple of stipulations, though I manage.

Quick notes on what each disorder is mainly compiled of:

ODD:
Frequent temper tantrums
Excessive arguing with adults
Often questioning rules
Active defiance and refusal to comply with adult requests and rules
Deliberate attempts to annoy or upset people
Blaming others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
Often being touchy or easily annoyed by others
Frequent anger and resentment
Mean and hateful talking when upset
Spiteful attitude and revenge seeking

BPD:
Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. [Not including suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5]
A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., promiscuous sex, eating disorders, binge eating, substance abuse, reckless driving). [Again, not including suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5]
Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats or self-injuring behavior such as cutting, interfering with the healing of scars (excoriation) or picking at oneself.
Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
Chronic feelings of emptiness
Inappropriate anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms

Im pretty sure you can guess which parts lead to this whole mess.

Going back to the source of the flame, it was incited by your calling him an egotistical idiot over a misunderstanding of a joke. Note living with BPD comes with the feeling 'everyone is out to get you,' kind of thoughts from what Ive read, they take things very personally, and are easily offended. This has been displayed multiple times.

Now, from the ODD, his logic tells him, this person is starting an argument. Once he develops an antithesis to your argument, he becomes adamant to the point where he will try to drive it home no matter how screwy it is, not realizing hes the only one understanding whatever the heck is going in his mind. From there he will start to behave like a rabid dog, and attack at any given chance he can get.

Note from this first ceasefire agreement from bratfury's post came from me heavily medicating him with Lorazepam, typically used for anti anxiety and muscle relaxtion, as it is a quite a powerful sedative.

The main problem with this was not you not wanting a herc, but insulting him for no reason pages back. Im sure if you just apologized, faking it or not, just to get him to shut up for not just your sake, but mine too, itd be doing the whole world a favor .

_River - Heavens Tear

Kittennice - Heavens Tear wrote: »

WTF?! This thread still has life on its life bar?b:angry

>.> I must use a different method....

try sharpened tooth arrow first o.o;;; then the bomb

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear wrote: »

well, doing a common example I always accept venos with or without herc in TTs, many common pets like the golem, as far as I know, deal more damage than herc so are better for DDing against the silly [?] bosses...

thatd actually be incorrect, in an old thread ages back, solandri, omglazerz and some other dude mathematically proved herc out damages a golem in long ? mob fights.

TheGoliath - Heavens Tear

Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »

River, dont try to take too much offense to Tear as you seem to be by the looks of your responses. Its difficult to comprehend his behavior unless you know his backgroud. Its part of a series of complex disorders, with the main contributors to this coup, 'Borderline Personality Disorder' and 'Oppositial Defiant Disorder' appearing as the leads on stage. Being his wife comes with acouple of stipulations, though I manage.

Quick notes on what each disorder is mainly compiled of:

ODD:
Frequent temper tantrums
Excessive arguing with adults
Often questioning rules
Active defiance and refusal to comply with adult requests and rules
Deliberate attempts to annoy or upset people
Blaming others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
Often being touchy or easily annoyed by others
Frequent anger and resentment
Mean and hateful talking when upset
Spiteful attitude and revenge seeking

BPD:
Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. [Not including suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5]
A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., promiscuous sex, eating disorders, binge eating, substance abuse, reckless driving). [Again, not including suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5]
Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats or self-injuring behavior such as cutting, interfering with the healing of scars (excoriation) or picking at oneself.
Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
Chronic feelings of emptiness
Inappropriate anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms

Im pretty sure you can guess which parts lead to this whole mess.

Going back to the source of the flame, it was incited by your calling him an egotistical idiot over a misunderstanding of a joke. Note living with BPD comes with the feeling 'everyone is out to get you,' kind of thoughts from what Ive read, they take things very personally, and are easily offended. This has been displayed multiple times.

Now, from the ODD, his logic tells him, this person is starting an argument. Once he develops an antithesis to your argument, he becomes adamant to the point where he will try to drive it home no matter how screwy it is, not realizing hes the only one understanding whatever the heck is going in his mind. From there he will start to behave like a rabid dog, and attack at any given chance he can get.

Note from this first ceasefire agreement from bratfury's post came from me heavily medicating him with Lorazepam, typically used for anti anxiety and muscle relaxtion, as it is a quite a powerful sedative.

The main problem with this was not you not wanting a herc, but insulting him for no reason pages back. Im sure if you just apologized, faking it or not, just to get him to shut up for not just your sake, but mine too, itd be doing the whole world a favor .

looks like u have lots of time to kill to type all this nonsense lol

creepy


Edit: oh rly Tear ? o,o
I got tricked by pesky venos without herc, from now on I'll ask only for venos with herc! <.<

_River - Heavens Tear

Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »

River, dont try to take too much offense to Tear as you seem to be by the looks of your responses. Its difficult to comprehend his behavior unless you know his backgroud. Its part of a series of complex disorders, with the main contributors to this coup, 'Borderline Personality Disorder' and 'Oppositial Defiant Disorder' appearing as the leads on stage. Being his wife comes with acouple of stipulations, though I manage.

Quick notes on what each disorder is mainly compiled of:

ODD:
Frequent temper tantrums
Excessive arguing with adults
Often questioning rules
Active defiance and refusal to comply with adult requests and rules
Deliberate attempts to annoy or upset people
Blaming others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
Often being touchy or easily annoyed by others
Frequent anger and resentment
Mean and hateful talking when upset
Spiteful attitude and revenge seeking

BPD:
Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. [Not including suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5]
A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., promiscuous sex, eating disorders, binge eating, substance abuse, reckless driving). [Again, not including suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5]
Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats or self-injuring behavior such as cutting, interfering with the healing of scars (excoriation) or picking at oneself.
Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
Chronic feelings of emptiness
Inappropriate anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms

Im pretty sure you can guess which parts lead to this whole mess.

Going back to the source of the flame, it was incited by your calling him an egotistical idiot over a misunderstanding of a joke. Note living with BPD comes with the feeling 'everyone is out to get you,' kind of thoughts from what Ive read, they take things very personally, and are easily offended. This has been displayed multiple times.

Now, from the ODD, his logic tells him, this person is starting an argument. Once he develops an antithesis to your argument, he becomes adamant to the point where he will try to drive it home no matter how screwy it is, not realizing hes the only one understanding whatever the heck is going in his mind. From there he will start to behave like a rabid dog, and attack at any given chance he can get.

Note from this first ceasefire agreement from bratfury's post came from me heavily medicating him with Lorazepam, typically used for anti anxiety and muscle relaxtion, as it is a quite a powerful sedative.

The main problem with this was not you not wanting a herc, but insulting him for no reason pages back. Im sure if you just apologized, faking it or not, just to get him to shut up for not just your sake, but mine too, itd be doing the whole world a favor .

o.o omg... I had no idea...

I really am sorry for calling you that Tear. I didn't realize it would start an argument like this x.x I didn't mean anything by it. It was an empty thing I threw out there.

But i really really am very sorry for saying it. And I know its hard to tell on the internet, but I am being as sincere as I can be.

I owe you an apology too. Please forgive me if I have insulted you as well. It was never my intent, I will do my best to watch how I approach a topic in the future.

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

_River - Heavens Tear wrote: »

try sharpened tooth arrow first o.o;;; then the bomb

But I don't have that skill @_@