Think venomancers are overpowered? Please read.

Toxickiss - Heavens Tear

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So your belief is that nobody should really care about how the game works, and that we should just take it as it is, even though things can easily be changed. Sure, makes perfect sense.

No of course it's easy for someone to read between the lines if they want. No of course I'm not saying the game is filled with fields of flowers and you should run through then because nothing is wrong. I'm saying that it's suppose to be enjoyable, Yes? so then do what you can to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, then don't play. It's not as though someone is forcing people to play this game if they are unhappy with it.

And this is not coming from a person that plays a veno, this is coming from a person that says life is to short to be argueing over a game that we have no control over changing. I know myself that if something upsets me to the point that i am "Yelling" at people on a forum then it's just not worth being apart of my day. None of my last few posts were went to be anything more than sometimes you just have to let it go, and enjoy your day, type of lifts me ups.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Lcewolf - Lost City wrote: »

I have a lvl 30 veno with a golem and a sawfly and I disagree. Lots of times the monsters will double. When my pet is atking one the other gets me, this causes lots of pots wasted, many times killed. It is very easy to die like that. I don't know about higher lvls but it doesn't seem overpowered... Only like 1-5% venos have phoenix or herc so don't count that in...

The solution to that problem is to have the pet attack the second mob, and burn it down first, then finish off the first mob second. Sometimes when you know more mobs will aggro if you attack or send your pet is to send the pet, and then unsummon it once its attack hits and re-summon it so only one mob will get pulled to where you are standing.


When playing a veno, or any pet based class really, the player must learn to micro-manage the pet.

Asgenar - Lost City

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You claimed it was because of the pet when it's because of the ability that can be given to the pet. The two are not the same. Generalizing when the problem is specific to a single ability is what people do when they start screaming bloody murder about venos and their phoenixes.

I've played many different classes across many different games, and there have always been balance issues between classes, but something that always stands out is when the problem isn't the class or the pet, but a single ability that is causing the problem. Once the ability gets fixed or toned down, the problem tends to go away, and people forget it was a problem.

nerf the pet, the class becomes underpowered. Nerf the class, everything is taken into account. You can not fix one skill and have it not affect another. All skills are intertwined in their use. It is dumb to assume that every skill is isolated. Thus, it is dumb to single out flesh realm as the problem.

Lcewolf - Lost City

yeah I do that. Its just that I lag a lot and my golem responds slow...

Toxickiss - Heavens Tear

Just cause I'm a veno doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to have the hp of a barb or the powerful hit of a wizard, or the heal of a cleric, or lots of crit like an archer. I have to except my character for what it was built to do. To me that's the whole point of playing an MMO. You have to interact with others to get the job done. All of us together make the perfect character. Otherwise you might as well play a single player game.

Asgenar - Lost City

Toxickiss - Heavens Tear wrote: »

First I don't know why you are argueing back when I wasn't argueing with you. I was asking you to explain to me your reasoning. Maybe if you would actually explain your reasoning instead of going on tangents then others would be able to relate to you.

Second it doesn't matter if it's in game or in real life it is human nature to defend yourself. Just as you are doing with your posts.

Third since when is having fun, while u suceed and accomplish things not an option.

Fourth I have never once in this thread of any other said anything about this game being or not being balanced.

Fifth in all that you still never explained what about venos you feel makes them overpowered. Question, did you see the posts that show the top 10-50 characters that someone posted. If you wanna throw words around like overpowered than explain why the lists aren't filled with venos?

sigh. Ok, I thought you were an open minded person, I guess not. Everything I have said points to the fact that something in this game is not balanced, and that is venomancers. I don't find any of my posts to you to be "going on tangents." And your posts are meaningless. What is your purpose, to fight with me? I have already proved my point to you that the overpoweredness of venomancers does impact other players in this game. And finally, if you actually find that list of whatever top whatever to be accurate and worth using as back up, then you are dumber than I thought. You for one don't play on a PvP server, meaning you have no right to call on the list for statistical use.

Reikara - Heavens Tear

I'd just also like to point out that the level 79 "invincible skill" requires 20 chi to cast, only lasts 10 seconds and in return for being invincible during that period it also stuns the venomancer.

Asgenar - Lost City

Toxickiss - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just cause I'm a veno doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to have the hp of a barb or the powerful hit of a wizard, or the heal of a cleric, or lots of crit like an archer. I have to except my character for what it was built to do. To me that's the whole point of playing an MMO. You have to interact with others to get the job done. All of us together make the perfect character. Otherwise you might as well play a single player game.

You say that you haven't in any of your posts called this game balanced. Well you just did without actually using the word. You assume that everything is perfectly proportional so that every classes limit is the same. I'm done with you.

sirxman13

Venomancers are kindve weak because im an archer Targirl i am an lvl 23 archer and i fought a veno and SCHOOLED her and she had pet b:chuckle

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Asgenar - Lost City wrote: »

nerf the pet, the class becomes underpowered. Nerf the class, everything is taken into account. You can not fix one skill and have it not affect another. All skills are intertwined in their use. It is dumb to assume that every skill is isolated. Thus, it is dumb to single out flesh realm as the problem.

Flesh Ream doesn't have PvP damage reduction like every other pet skill.


Flesh Ream is the problem because of this.


Flesh Ream will probably never be changed.


Flesh Ream will therefore always be a problem.


Also, how would changing Flesh Ream to have PvP damage reduction negatively affect other pet skills?


Does the Phoenix even come with Flesh Ream, or does the Veno have to teach it that ability?

Asgenar - Lost City

Reikara - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'd just also like to point out that the level 79 "invincible skill" requires 20 chi to cast, only lasts 10 seconds and in return for being invincible during that period it also stuns the venomancer.

so what? the pheonix isn't stunned.

Asgenar - Lost City

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Flesh Ream doesn't have PvP damage reduction like every other pet skill.


Flesh Ream is the problem because of this.


Flesh Ream will probably never be changed.


Flesh Ream will therefore always be a problem.


Also, how would changing Flesh Ream to have PvP damage reduction negatively affect other pet skills?


Does the Phoenix even come with Flesh Ream, or does the Veno have to teach it that ability?

Again, you don't play on a PvP server, so please just stop with the posts. Nerfing flesh realm so that it actually does the reduced damage it is supposed to in PvP will make venos singlehandedly the weakest class in the game at PvP. Now stop with the posts with no facts or experience to back you up.

Toxickiss - Heavens Tear

Asgenar - Lost City wrote: »

sigh. Ok, I thought you were an open minded person, I guess not. Everything I have said points to the fact that something in this game is not balanced, and that is venomancers. I don't find any of my posts to you to be "going on tangents." And your posts are meaningless. What is your purpose, to fight with me? I have already proved my point to you that the overpoweredness of venomancers does impact other players in this game. And finally, if you actually find that list of whatever top whatever to be accurate and worth using as back up, then you are dumber than I thought. You for one don't play on a PvP server, meaning you have no right to call on the list for statistical use.

And I thought you might actually be a grown up that was willing to hear someones else point of view. Can you say Hypocrite! You apparently (as I said at the beginning of our conversation) just want to call people names and play the "I can't hear you game" after you have been able to voice urself. And actually saying over and over that the game is not balanced and that venos are overpowered doesn't in anyway prioof your point. I asked for examples and you was unwilling to give them, so I'm done wasting my time on you.

Oh and just because someone doesn't play on the pvp server, doesn't mean we don't pvp on the pve server. In case you didn't know we can actually turn pvp on.


Oh and here is the list that you apparently knew nothing about.
http://pwi.perfectworld.com/rank
If you can't figure it out. You can click between the servers on the left

Asgenar - Lost City

Toxickiss - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And I thought you might actually be a grown up that was willing to hear someones else point of view. Can you say Hypocrite! You apparently (as I said at the beginning of our conversation) just want to call people names and play the "I can't hear you game" after you have been able to voice urself. And actually saying over and over that the game is not balanced and that venos are overpowered doesn't in anyway prioof your point. I asked for examples and you was unwilling to give them, so I'm done wasting my time on you.

Oh and just because someone doesn't play on the pvp server, doesn't mean we don't pvp on the pve server.


Oh and here is the list that you apparently knew nothing about.
http://pwi.perfectworld.com/rank
If you can't figure it out. You can click between the servers on the left

Sigh, you assume that I don't know about the ranking list. I do know it, just not the specific name of how it is called. I don't even know what point you're trying to aim at, except to fight with me on some egotistical issue. All the posts that I have been giving before we got to this senseless debate have been showing that THE GAME IS IMBALANCED AND VENOS BEING OVERPOWERED IS ONE OF THEM. I can't even figure out your point of view. Your post is just a heapless mess of accusations.

Edit: again so ignorant. You actually think that the PvP on the PvE server is enough to gather a good amount of personal experience and feel confident to be posting about it, get real.

Reikara - Heavens Tear

I'm 90% sure you cant command pets whilst stunned.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Asgenar - Lost City wrote: »

Again, you don't play on a PvP server, so please just stop with the posts. Nerfing flesh realm so that it actually does the reduced damage it is supposed to in PvP will make venos singlehandedly the weakest class in the game at PvP. Now stop with the posts with no facts or experience to back you up.

You aren't listening, either.


I NEVER SAID CHANGE FLESH REAM I SAID IT WAS THE PROBLEM BUT PEOPLE WERE SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER ABOUT PHOENIXES BEING THE PROBLEM WHEN THEY WEREN'T THE BLOODY PROBLEM DO YOU GET IT NOW?


If not, I suggest removing your head from your **** because it is clearly preventing you from reading what has been written.


EDIT ::

BTW, if I felt like playing on a PvP server (which I have in the past) I would give EVERY pet I ever had Flesh Ream because it doesn't have PvP damage reduction. Doesn't that say something about the ability being a bit broken? Doesn't mean I'm saying change it; it simply means to accept that it's not the pet: it's the ability.

dieseasily

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm afraid it's not that simple. You can't just drag lines between two unlike things and call them practically identical. Also: "See, at this point I have probably lost some of you." Not to be insulting, but we're not stupid. Please don't assume we are.

I'm going to post a new thread soon with the idea that seems to be the most popular, with a simple yes or no poll attached.

Chess is a game that has been around for eons. It can easily be said that any game that requires stratagy to play was derived from chess. This is no different, and the fact that you fail to see that proves that I did lose you with the analogy. Andd I did not call them identical. I just tried to simplify it for you and others like you who fail to see that the game is more balanced then you would have us believe.

Second, I never said anyone was stupid, but to be fair, Yes I do assume alot people are. I cannot help it. I work with people on a daily basis. I work in an industry that despite it earns by far the least profit when compared to other industries, it is also the among least trusted. The only industries that that have a worse trust rating are tobacco and oil. And yet they earn HUGE profits margins, where as we only earn a 3% profit margin. I work customer service and I talk to people everyday that think we should have either a 0% profit margin or better yet, we should be giving our product away for free. People as a whole are stupid. Like it or not, most of people are stupid and just refuse to admit it. I know I am, and its because of that I am willing to admit to it that I can recognize it so easily when I see it.

Finally, if you want to see an unbalanced game, I am playing another free online game with a cash shop. That particular game gives any player willing to pay $3000 a year a VIP badge for their character. That badge adds basically 20% to 50% more damage, and 10% - 20% more pdef and mdef. On top of that, you do not pay $3000 for the badge, its just a bonus for doing so. So you take all that money and you buy the best weapon, the best mounts, the bet armor, lots of training bonus items, and inside of 2 weeks you can obtain lvl 80+ and still have $1500 left over. I came to this game because the cash shop here is no where near as bad. You have no idea just how bad a game can be run. I applaud this game for not being anywhere near the money whores that other games have become. Example of money whoring from that game, When it first started there were free events that you could win $20 worth of cash shop stuff in game. Current events are you win 5000 gold(game money not cash shop in that game) and 5 mid level healing potions. In that game it take about a minute to earn $5000.
For their cash shop events, the person who spends the most $$$ in a given month gets a free game unbalancing item! I don't know about you, but this ticks me off something fierce. At least anyone in this game can play a Veno and farm for cash to get a Pheonix/Herc. And in this game anyone can use in game money to buy cash shop items. Yes it takes work but you have that option here.

Toxickiss - Heavens Tear

Alright I tried to make the piece I tried to have an intellectual conversation but when someone isn't willing to actually listen to the other side without throwing a fight. I must then sign off. I will now go tend to my child who can actually make it through a day without throwing a fit and has more respect for other people then some on this thread. That's Sad!

To those of you that actually can post on a forum and have a fun debate about things without throwing meaningless fits, I wish you all good night and i hope to chat again soon!

Asgenar - Lost City

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You aren't listening, either.


I NEVER SAID CHANGE FLESH REAM I SAID IT WAS THE PROBLEM BUT PEOPLE WERE SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER ABOUT PHOENIXES BEING THE PROBLEM WHEN THEY WEREN'T THE BLOODY PROBLEM DO YOU GET IT NOW?


If not, I suggest removing your head from your **** because it is clearly preventing you from reading what has been written.

I'm saying that flesh ream isn't the problem, it's the whole class. And flesh ream and pheonixes are part of the class. Now go away.

Vinat - Sanctuary

sorry but seriously wth is the problem with flesh ream? that it does what it's supposed to do? right..

Accelerated - Sanctuary

Zzz... I can't believe I read this thread til page 10. =o.

Venomancers have quite a few disadvantages on this game. At least during the period where it's close to end game.

Venomancers are the only class in the game where Holy and Dark books for their higher level skills are nearly impossible to get out side of special packets from certain events and FB89 / 99 (there are 0 books for venomancers in FB109, and out of 14 bosses that drop 2-3 different books for other classes, I'd say that's considerably unfair). This includes the "invincible Dark Summer Sprint" (which has a "Ignore various baffle condition in 6 seconds." add-on bonus). And yes, it only lasts for 6 seconds after it's activated and Summer Sprint has a 60 second cooldown.

To elaborate, there's exactly 9 Dark or Holy books out of 25 books. And it's not like these books are easily gotten in the first place. Not to mention, a average HP venomancer can't solo FB99, due to uncontrolled AoE bosses + element debuffs. So no book farming for venomancers! =o. And it's pretty close to impossible for average HP venomancers solo FB109, so ya. ^^;

Also, PvP wise. It's just impossible to beat any heavy armor'd Blademaster or Barbarian with +12 armors in a genetic pk or TW by yourself as a pure magic venomancer (this includes just attacking them without them attacking you back). I've tried on a private server with a +12 rank 8 weapon with a level 12X phoenix and almost 50% channelling reduction (lol). The 50% reduced magic damage that venomancers have make a huge difference in PvP during end game. Hell, it's hard to kill a wizard with +12 armor with a phoenix without using certain combo of moves.

-->
Now for some advantages that venomancers have.

It's obvious that they're amazing as a PvE solo'ing class, so I won't add anymore than what I just did.

During PvP, using this simple combo of skills usually can beat any class...:

(Before PvP) Use Summer Sprint --> Bramble Hood and send pet (activate stun) --> Fox Form --> use Purge (if it's a Blademaster, Barbarian, Venomancer, Archer, Cleric with their buffs) --> Amplify --> Ironwood --> Lucky Scarab --> ripping bite on your pet skills --> Spark (advanced if you're demon / sage) --> and you can guess the rest. Works in every duel and lower HP blademasters, barbarians, etc. (10k~15k being the lower and 25~30k+ being the higher). Even if first try doesn't work, all a venomancer has to do is kite and gather chi / spark. And also, a smart venomancer doesn't try to out run a blademaster using anti speed debuff skill / a tiger barbarian. Bramble Hood should be the first thing any person should try to activate in that kind of situation.

Basically, venomancers start overpowered, but during end game, they become pretty nerfed. (Unless pets can be refined! )

And also...

Edit: One possible solution has been proposed! One of the biggest complaints about venos is the the phoenix and herc, which can enable venos to PVP like fiends and tank bosses solo, respectively. Instead of altering them (which venos do NOT want to see happen), what if every other class were given a $200 optional item or two which could compare to a phoenix or herc? This way, the venos and their pets would not be altered, players of other classes would have something that could compare and thus would likely stop complaining, AND it would make more money for PWI. If you agree or disagree with this, PLEASE add a comment about it. Thank you!!

This isn't exactly a good solution. You do realize that throughout the time that other classes progress their armor and ****, they spent more than 20million, right? Just the +12 refinement would cost around 1 billion. And Those optional items, unless it's some genetic copy version of pets (which would make the luring class almost pointless), won't grow... will they? They'd have a level requirement, so after few levels, they'd become worthless in PvE / PvP for you. And those optional items would most likely be able to be refined, which would make venomancers complain about how they can be refined while their pets can't be. =o. AND! Under certain situations, a smart venomancer would avoid 100% damage while their pet tanks away. So unless these $200 dollar weapons have 100% phy / mag damage harm with a glitched DoT buff, I doubt they'd compare with a herc / phoenix. And btw, there are countless equipments that are worth way more than 20 million coins.

Foxx_trott - Heavens Tear

To any MOD who is cruising thro here. I'd like to suggest locking this thread.

This is getting ridiculous.

Asgenar - Lost City

Foxx_trott - Heavens Tear wrote: »

To any MOD who is cruising thro here. I'd like to suggest locking this thread.

This is getting ridiculous.

Oh, another veno saying the thread is ridiculous. /facepalm

Isala - Sanctuary

Lcewolf - Lost City wrote: »

yeah I do that. Its just that I lag a lot and my golem responds slow...

There's always the solution I use... Not knowing your build, this might not work for you, but if you're LA with decent Vit, and you get a mob attacking you, switch to Fox Form, and start spamming Leech and Befuddling mist. It'll keep you alive. You might have to take a few pots/use Soul Transfusion, as well as give your pet an occasional heal, but you can survive. I got ganged up on by a handful of Level 61 Taruox Enthusiasts about 2 hours ago, and pulled myself out alive.

I also have something to those of you saying that ALL venos use a pheonix to be overpowered/cheap/etc... I for one, never intend to use a pheonix, or hercules, nor for that matter, does the majority of my faction. My reasoning... Exactly as has been said. It's broken. It takes what could be a challenging game, and spits in its face. I will be PvPing with a sawfly, and a few other choice pets. And, yes, I know... "Don't talk about PvP unless you're on a PvP server." But just because I play on a non PvP server doesn't mean I don't PvP. It just means I don't want to be ganked every time I walk out of a safe zone. I'd actually like to head into Secret Passage without being killed in 3 seconds flat. Fact remains, I do my PvP, either in duels or not, mostly WITHOUT a pet. About 75% of the people I've fought and won against, I didn't use my pet. So why should I bother getting a pheonix? I can think of a lot better ways to spend my millions of coins, like on... I don't know... Skills for my pets, and res scrolls for me? Don't stereotype us. We don't tell you that all your class plays the same. Don't mock us by telling us we're all cheap.

Asgenar - Lost City

Accelerated - Sanctuary wrote: »

Zzz... I can't believe I read this thread til page 10. =o.

Venomancers have quite a few disadvantages on this game. At least during the period where it's close to end game.

Venomancers are the only class in the game where Holy and Dark books for their higher level skills are nearly impossible to get out side of special packets from certain events and FB89 / 99 (there are 0 books for venomancers in FB109, and out of 14 bosses that drop 2-3 different books for other classes, I'd say that's considerably unfair). This includes the "invincible Dark Summer Sprint" (which has a "Ignore various baffle condition in 6 seconds." add-on bonus). And yes, it only lasts for 6 seconds after it's activated and Summer Sprint has a 60 second cooldown.

To elaborate, there's exactly 9 Dark or Holy books out of 25 books. And it's not like these books are easily gotten in the first place. Not to mention, a average HP venomancer can't solo FB99, due to uncontrolled AoE bosses + element debuffs. So no book farming for venomancers! =o. And it's pretty close to impossible for average HP venomancers solo FB109, so ya. ^^;

Also, PvP wise. It's just impossible to beat any heavy armor'd Blademaster or Barbarian with +12 armors in a genetic pk or TW by yourself as a pure magic venomancer (this includes just attacking them without them attacking you back). I've tried on a private server with a +12 rank 8 weapon with a level 12X phoenix and almost 50% channelling reduction (lol). The 50% reduced magic damage that venomancers have make a huge difference in PvP during end game. Hell, it's hard to kill a wizard with +12 armor with a phoenix without using certain combo of moves.

-->
Now for some advantages that venomancers have.

It's obvious that they're amazing as a PvE solo'ing class, so I won't add anymore than what I just did.

During PvP, using this simple combo of skills usually can beat any class...:

(Before PvP) Use Summer Sprint --> Bramble Hood and send pet (activate stun) --> Fox Form --> use Purge (if it's a Blademaster, Barbarian, Venomancer, Archer, Cleric with their buffs) --> Amplify --> Ironwood --> Lucky Scarab --> ripping bite on your pet skills --> Spark (advanced if you're demon / sage) --> and you can guess the rest. Works in every duel and lower HP blademasters, barbarians, etc. (10k~15k being the lower and 25~30k+ being the higher). Even if first try doesn't work, all a venomancer has to do is kite and gather chi / spark. And also, a smart venomancer doesn't try to out run a blademaster using anti speed debuff skill / a tiger barbarian. Bramble Hood should be the first thing any person should try to activate in that kind of situation.

Basically, venomancers start overpowered, but during end game, they become pretty nerfed. (Unless pets can be refined! )

And also...

This isn't exactly a good solution. You do realize that throughout the time that other classes progress their armor and ****, they spent more than 20million, right? Just the +12 refinement would cost around 1 billion. And Those optional items, unless it's some genetic copy version of pets (which would make the luring class almost pointless), won't grow... will they? They'd have a level requirement, so after few levels, they'd become worthless in PvE / PvP for you. And those optional items would most likely be able to be refined, which would make venomancers complain about how they can be refined while their pets can't be. =o. AND! Under certain situations, a smart venomancer would avoid 100% damage while their pet tanks away. So unless these $200 dollar weapons have 100% phy / mag damage harm with a glitched DoT buff, I doubt they'd compare with a herc / phoenix. And btw, there are countless equipments that are worth way more than 20 million coins.

Oh, and I would like to add something. In the chinese server, it seems that the pheonix and hercules has already been removed.(semi-rumor) And, in an upcoming patch, the battle pack will be removed from the cash shop in the MY server. So, even if what this one guy says is true, which I actually surely hope, there isn't enough players that have played on private servers with end game gears and successfully PvPed. I do not know how smart or good you are at PvP, so I will stay away from there. But it seems that the devs in China have finally responded to the complaints of all the "dumb" people that don't play venomancers.

Foxx_trott - Heavens Tear

Asgenar - Lost City wrote: »

Oh, another veno saying the thread is ridiculous. /facepalm

Case in point, ridiculous.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Asgenar - Lost City wrote: »

I'm saying that flesh ream isn't the problem, it's the whole class. And flesh ream and pheonixes are part of the class. Now go away.

If you are going to continue to claim that the class is the problem when without Flesh Ream there wouldn't be a problem at all then you are an idiot and not worth my time.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »

sorry but seriously wth is the problem with flesh ream? that it does what it's supposed to do? right..

Flesh Ream ignores PvP damage reduction unlike any other pet ability.


That being said, I doubt it will ever be changed considering it's always been that way.

Asgenar - Lost City

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you are going to continue to claim that the class is the problem when without Flesh Ream there wouldn't be a problem at all then you are an idiot and not worth my time.

lols. If veno's pets didn't have flesh ream, there would be no point in rolling one in the PvP server. Without flesh ream, venos are the worst class in the game at pvp. I believe I've said this already. Which is why I'm saying that the game needs a skill overhaul, not just for venos perhaps.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Asgenar - Lost City wrote: »

lols. If veno's pets didn't have flesh ream, there would be no point in rolling one in the PvP server. Without flesh ream, venos are the worst class in the game at pvp. I believe I've said this already. Which is why I'm saying that the game needs a skill overhaul, not just for venos perhaps.

Having done plenty of veno pvp on the MY server I have to say no. The class is just fine without it, its just that players don't know how to use the class.