Think venomancers are overpowered? Please read.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

The point of this thread is to come up with a list of advantages and disadvantages that each individual class holds. In a separate thread, there was an argument that the advantages given to venomancers far surpass those of other classes. I'd like to take that argument into its own dedicated thread.

There are two possible outcomes:
1.) The list shows that every class has an equal balance of advantages and disadvantages. Us, the people who argue that venomancers are overpowered, essentially lose the argument.

2.) The list shows that venomancers do indeed have advantages that outweigh the advantages of all other classes. Us, the people who argue that venomancers are overpowered, essentially win the argument.

If done correctly, this thread will PROVE beyond the shadow of a doubt that venomancers either are or are not overpowered. That will allow the people who argue over this issue (as you all love to do so often) to have a reference to point to, which will stop the arguments and flaming in their tracks.

So, without further ado:

THE LIST

Blademasters
Advantages:
- The best class for taking on multiple mobs at once due to heavy armor + loads of AoE spells (?)
- Can solo mobs 20-30 levels above their own, depending on mob type
- Fast leveling

Disadvantages:
- AOE's limited mostly to axes
- Weak against magical mobs
- Skill points have to be spread out over atk, dex and vit, so balancing them can be tricky

Wizards
Advantages:
- Highest single attacks of any class
- Possibly the most feared class in TW's

Disadvantages:
- The weakest physical defense of any class, incredibly hard to solo with - might as well forget about some bosses
- Long cast times, leaving them vulnerable and defenseless
- Clerics can heal and buff better than wizards, and have faster-casting spells that do nearly as much damage - why roll a wizard then?
- Difficult in PVP due to flashy attacks, long cast times and low HP

Archers
Advantages:
- Hits criticals more often than any other class, crazy damage as a result
- Uses both physical and magical attacks
- Strong against all classes in PVP, backed up by the majority of the top PVPers in every server being archers

Disadvantages:
- They miss more than they should (?)
- Completely unable to solo higher-level bosses, at least not without being at a level far above the boss
- High damage can grab aggro from bosses, thus leading to instant death - this forces archers to hold themselves back on bosses
- Only class without an HP recovery ability

Clerics
Advantages:
- Heals and buffs, oh my
- Very powerful magic attack
- Looong stun skill
- Possible the most sought-after class in the game for parties
- Both physical and magical attacks, making them flexible against opponents

Disadvantages:
- Drains mana quickly due to all that casting, buffing, etc., not to mention Plume Shot isn't exactly low-cost
- Squishy, but ability to heal + buff better than anyone makes this not so bad (?)
- Responsibility to heal the group makes leveling difficult, might spend most of the time healing instead of nuking that FB boss (thus getting less exp from it)

Barbarians
Advantages:
- Usually highest HP, physical defense of any class
- Tiger form makes this even better, and enables them to run much faster
- Great versus magical mobs - Alacrity of the Beast cancels channeling of opponent

Disadvantages:
- Lacking in damage due to focus on vitality over attack, also low dexterity makes this even worse
- Repair costs through the roof due to soaking up loads of damage on heavy armor

Venomancers
Advantages:
- HP and MP-recharging skills
- Stun skill that does not miss, does not use chi
- Phoenix = gigantic advantage in PVP that no other class has
- Pets are able to pull single mobs out of groups, which all other classes are usually forced to avoid
- Huge money-making potential due to being able to solo TT and more when others cannot, pets make this possible
- Fast leveling

Disadvantages:
- Squishy - this can be negated in PVE by simply using a pet, but they can be 2-shotted by an archer in PVP
- Cost of phoenix and herc is huge
- Mediocre at PVP - this is proven by statistics showing that most of the top PVPers of each server are not venos, phoenix or not

Here's some tinder for the fire: ONLY VENOMANCERS can solo TT at 70, and tank, both with relative ease. That's not fair. Most other classes would be utterly demolished trying to attempt such a thing. Archers and wizards might as well consider it impossible. The advantage given to venomancers makes them overpowered. PROVE ME WRONG.

Edit: One possible solution has been proposed! One of the biggest complaints about venos is the the phoenix and herc, which can enable venos to PVP like fiends and tank bosses solo, respectively. Instead of altering them (which venos do NOT want to see happen), what if every other class were given a $200 optional item or two which could compare to a phoenix or herc? This way, the venos and their pets would not be altered, players of other classes would have something that could compare and thus would likely stop complaining, AND it would make more money for PWI. If you agree or disagree with this, PLEASE add a comment about it. Thank you!!

chipsing1234

Couldn't we keep this limited to my thread?

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Couldn't we keep this limited to my thread?

I figured we might as well try to put an end to the argument, or else it will go on forever. Sorry to steal your thunder. b:laugh

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Blademasters have lots of stuns, even AoE stuns that last a long time. Also, they have skills for a very wide varity of weapons, plus can increase the phy def of everyone in their party by a very nice amount, as well as shift their defenses for more physical, or magical tanking ability. They also have a ton of AoEs,

Archers spam criticals on everything, though for some odd reason they do miss a lot. They also have the largest attack range of any class and a very high attack speed.

Wizards have some crazy as heck damage but long casting times as a result. They tend to die fast.

Well, thats my contribution. Should be interesting to see what this topic leads to.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Blademasters have lots of stuns, even AoE stuns that last a long time. Also, they have skills for a very wide varity of weapons, plus can increase the phy def of everyone in their party by a very nice amount, as well as shift their defenses for more physical, or magical tanking ability. They also have a ton of AoEs,

Archers spam criticals on everything, though for some odd reason they do miss a lot. They also have the largest attack range of any class and a very high attack speed.

Wizards have some crazy as heck damage but long casting times as a result. They tend to die fast.

Well, thats my contribution. Should be interesting to see what this topic leads to.

Duly noted.

mbrunestud

i'm currently not liking the fact that all archers can do is deal dmg, but during boss fights they can't even do that or they steal aggro and get everyone killed so they have to curb their dmg output. archers feel the least useful in a party sometimes. maybe if their fire enhancement can be casted as a buff instead of just a ranged weapon only self buff (like the mage's ice buff)

regarding venos, i do believe venos lack the raw firepower other classes offer; but my veno is only in the lvl 20's so other ppl should be giving the input for this one.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Blademasters have lots of stuns, even AoE stuns that last a long time. Also, they have skills for a very wide varity of weapons, plus can increase the phy def of everyone in their party by a very nice amount, as well as shift their defenses for more physical, or magical tanking ability. They also have a ton of AoEs,

Archers spam criticals on everything, though for some odd reason they do miss a lot. They also have the largest attack range of any class and a very high attack speed.

Wizards have some crazy as heck damage but long casting times as a result. They tend to die fast.

Well, thats my contribution. Should be interesting to see what this topic leads to.

If there's a barb available to spam Flesh Ream, this problem is eliminated. However, you're right - archers often aren't able to just open up on a boss.

chipsing1234

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Blademasters have lots of stuns, even AoE stuns that last a long time. Also, they have skills for a very wide varity of weapons, plus can increase the phy def of everyone in their party by a very nice amount, as well as shift their defenses for more physical, or magical tanking ability. They also have a ton of AoEs,

Archers spam criticals on everything, though for some odd reason they do miss a lot. They also have the largest attack range of any class and a very high attack speed.

Wizards have some crazy as heck damage but long casting times as a result. They tend to die fast.

Well, thats my contribution. Should be interesting to see what this topic leads to.

Most bms stick with one, maybe two weapons. If more, their skill are usually low leveled.
AOE stun isn't maxed till 6x. AOEs are mainly axe.
Venos have 3 hp recovery spells. A 50% stun at lvl 1. Bramble hood (enough said). They have what i like to call "biological warfare", i.e. the most variety of debuffs. They are the only class who can steal hp.

lempiamorton

you talk about venos as if mobs never attack them and always go for the pets and pets have unlimited hp

oh and i forgot to mention how it's totally impossible to do any dungeons without a veno in the party /end sarcasm

Elvenalmghty - Heavens Tear

//Quote
Here's some tinder for the fire: ONLY VENOMANCERS can solo TT at 70, easily kill mobs ten levels higher than their own, and tank, all with relative ease. That's not fair. Most other classes would be utterly demolished trying to attempt such a thing. Archers and wizards might as well consider it impossible. The advantage given to venomancers makes them overpowered. PROVE ME WRONG.
//

Uh maybe i m not proving u wrong but.....

As a cleric i can kill monsters [wood elemental with poisoning atks] a lot higher than me ..... after i got purify at 27 i was killing lv 41 native vipions fr the small time i had to grind .

Zoe - Heavens Tear

That veno stun skill only has a duration of 1.1 seconds at level 1 and 2 seconds at level 10. Its super short but my level 9 does have a 90% chance to stun.

Venos have foxform, which gives them higher physical attack and accuracy, but cuts their max mp as well. Foxform is based on melee, but venos are still forced to use magic weapons, greatly cutting their damage potential.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Elvenalmghty - Heavens Tear wrote: »

//Quote
Here's some tinder for the fire: ONLY VENOMANCERS can solo TT at 70, easily kill mobs ten levels higher than their own, and tank, all with relative ease. That's not fair. Most other classes would be utterly demolished trying to attempt such a thing. Archers and wizards might as well consider it impossible. The advantage given to venomancers makes them overpowered. PROVE ME WRONG.
//

Uh maybe i m not proving u wrong but.....

As a cleric i can kill monsters [wood elemental with poisoning atks] a lot higher than me ..... after i got purify at 27 i was killing lv 41 native vipions fr the small time i had to grind .

Fixed, thanks.

Saitada - Sanctuary

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Venos have 3 hp recovery spells. A 50% stun at lvl 1. Bramble hood (enough said). They have what i like to call "biological warfare", i.e. the most variety of debuffs. They are the only class who can steal hp.

We have 3 HP recovery spells? Really? *looks* hmm no sorry not true. We have 1 HP recovery spell, 1 MP recovery spell and 1 spell that allows us to reverse the two levels (meaning if our MP is full and our HP is almost gone, we can switch them, at which point we have full health if we are lucky, but almost no MP to fight with).

Leech is a foxform only skill we don't get till 39 and it only gives a 'chance' to steal a VERY small amount of HP, our stun skills we don't start getting till level 29, bramble hood we don't get till 59, our other skills are wood based and our debuffs are almost exclusively foxform debuffs.

~S

Shamino - Sanctuary

Venos arent the only class to solo mobs well above their level, Blademasters such as myself can solo level 94+ mobs (it takes a while to do it around 2mins but its possible) I am limited only in that physical mobs are easier to fight and archer mobs the easiest of all. Pure magical is probably beyond my reach however I havent seen many of them to test on.

When I was level 60 I soloed the level 90 wraith attacks at the Village of naught (level 90 flying "Archer" mobs) didnt get as many kills as I would like but didnt have any real risk of dying, now at 75 I still solo them I just get more kills and can tank a pair at once if I have to.

The axe tree for BM's works very well for AoE's and TW and with the heavy armor its quite easy to fight very high level mobs and win using our self healing.


Archer disadvantage: Lack of self healing ability (every other class has at least 1 self heal)

chipsing1234

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

We have 3 HP recovery spells? Really? *looks* hmm no sorry not true. We have 1 HP recovery spell, 1 MP recovery spell and 1 spell that allows us to reverse the two levels (meaning if our MP is full and our HP is almost gone, we can switch them, at which point we have full health if we are lucky, but almost no MP to fight with).

Leech is a foxform only skill we don't get till 39 and it only gives a 'chance' to steal a VERY small amount of HP, our stun skills we don't start getting till level 29, bramble hood we don't get till 59, our other skills are wood based and our debuffs are almost exclusively foxform debuffs.

~S

That is indeed what i mean. One hp recovery (doesn't use spark like bms), one hp/mp switch (meaning only one type of pot is needed, if even), and the leech. Well, 240 hp steal isn't bad considering it's like over 10% of your max. And has short cooldown.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That veno stun skill only has a duration of 1.1 seconds at level 1 and 2 seconds at level 10. Its super short but my level 9 does have a 90% chance to stun.

Venos have foxform, which gives them higher physical attack and accuracy, but cuts their max mp as well. Foxform is based on melee, but venos are still forced to use magic weapons, greatly cutting their damage potential.

I deleted the stun skill from the list, due to the duration of the stun not being significant enough to be a pro. If someone wants to argue it should be put back on, go ahead...

chipsing1234

Shamino - Sanctuary wrote: »

Venos arent the only class to solo mobs well above their level, Blademasters such as myself can solo level 94+ mobs (it takes a while to do it around 2mins but its possible) I am limited only in that physical mobs are easier to fight and archer mobs the easiest of all. Pure magical is probably beyond my reach however I havent seen many of them to test on.

When I was level 60 I soloed the level 90 wraith attacks at the Village of naught (level 90 flying "Archer" mobs) didnt get as many kills as I would like but didnt have any real risk of dying, now at 75 I still solo them I just get more kills and can tank a pair at once if I have to.

The axe tree for BM's works very well for AoE's and TW and with the heavy armor its quite easy to fight very high level mobs and win using our self healing.


Archer disadvantage: Lack of self healing ability (every other class has at least 1 self heal)

Just fyi, lvl 9x mobs don't hit very hard: I've gotten hit by one with no buffs at all, and it was only 300+; plus, any mob you can solo, venos can solo.

MentalEdge - Heavens Tear

Bramble hood isn't that usefull for 15 seconds and costing 2 sparks its close to impossible building it up to be used in a tw when your constantly spamming ironwood scarab.

One big thing you guys don't seem to notice,a lot of players are unwilling or unable to work as a team with others/lone wolf type players w/e and contrary to popular belief a lot of venos do buy zhen,so if pwe seriously nerfed/hindered their ability to solo they could potentially lose quite a chunk of their player base,i for one would go.

Sure this game is mainly built on team work but the fact this solo class are also included shows the devs have got the brains to realise their game has more appeal and potential customers catering to the other type of player.

chipsing1234

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I deleted the stun skill from the list, due to the duration of the stun not being significant enough to be a pro. If someone wants to argue it should be put back on, go ahead...

Put it back. It is a ranged stun.

dekciw

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Venos have foxform, which gives them higher physical attack and accuracy, but cuts their max mp as well. Foxform is based on melee, but venos are still forced to use magic weapons, greatly cutting their damage potential.

You're not "forced" but it is the cookie cutter build indeed. I've seen WF (Venomancers) run around with GX ( level 90 HH Gold Dual Axe) on PW-CN though.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Put it back. It is a ranged stun.

Archers have a ranged stun as well, the duration of which is far longer.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

dekciw wrote: »

You're not "forced" but it is the cookie cutter build indeed. I've seen WF (Venomancers) run around with GX ( level 90 HH Gold Dual Axe) on PW-CN though.

I was only referring to foxform. You can't use it without being equipped with a magic weapon.

chipsing1234

Aerilius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Archers have a ranged stun as well, the duration of which is far longer.

Archers need that stun. They don't have a pet to tank, nor hp regeneration for emergencies. You can't compare directly stun with stun, but rather, how all the techniques balance as a whole.
Plus, venos requires no spark, cannot miss, and has shorter cooldown. Emphasis being on using no chi.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Archers need that stun. They don't have a pet to tank, nor hp regeneration for emergencies. You can't compare directly stun with stun, but rather, how all the techniques balance as a whole.
Plus, venos requires no spark, cannot miss, and has shorter cooldown. Emphasis being on using no chi.

Point taken, putting it back in...

Saitada - Sanctuary

chipsing1234 wrote: »

That is indeed what i mean. One hp recovery (doesn't use spark like bms), one hp/mp switch (meaning only one type of pot is needed, if even), and the leech. Well, 240 hp steal isn't bad considering it's like over 10% of your max. And has short cooldown.

cooldown on leech is 6 seconds, and it's a foxform skill. I have mostly debuff skills in foxform not attack skills like in regular form, whereas in regular form I have mostly attack skills and like one debuff. It's a trade off really.

~S

p.s. Gonna go watch tv now, see ya all later.

Lessie - Lost City

You forgot to add that bramble hood only lasts for 15 seconds.

chipsing1234

Is foxform really a disadvantage? It's not, if the veno is heavy armor build. Another imbalance: heavy venos are nigh on unbeatable vs melees within 10 levels of them; their 100% increase in dex is equivalent to two misty forest rings, their physical debuff fits perfectly, and gain a 8 second stun as well.

Aelitaz - Heavens Tear

Why u haven't write anything to barbarians and clerics?b:question

chipsing1234

Also, with heavy venos, they can gain up to 120% physical attack as a passive skill.

Aerilius - Heavens Tear

Lessie - Lost City wrote: »

You forgot to add that bramble hood only lasts for 15 seconds.

Only for 15 seconds? That is a long time, and essentially makes melee attackers unable to do anything but get pummeled.

Lessie - Lost City

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Is foxform really a disadvantage? It's not, if the veno is heavy armor build. Another imbalance: heavy venos are nigh on unbeatable vs melees within 10 levels of them; their 100% increase in dex is equivalent to two misty forest rings, their physical debuff fits perfectly, and gain a 8 second stun as well.

They are also extremely lame to grind unless u pay 200$.