How to be successful on the new servers!

Sophia - Harshlands

Loontjuh - Sanctuary wrote: »

I realy loled reading this dirt.
Just admit veno is overpowerd, slightly earlier.
My lvl 79 BM cant tank solo tt 1-1 without buning 100K of my hp charm.
Barb cant tank garganta without clerics.
So wats your freaking point when someone says veno are overpowerd, well there right.

Btw, got nothing against veno's, but dont act like you dont know your way overpowerd.

Soloing TT is just an advantage of their class, just like zhenning or usual AOE grinding is an advantage of the other classes.

ZOMG SOLO TT SO OP !!
b:chuckle

chipsing1234

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Funny, I see the same SEVEN names here screaming hate at Veno's regularly

Powermind - Lost City
chipsing1234 - chicken **** that is afraid to name his main
Aerilius - Heavens Tear
Picexplorer - Heavens Tear
dekciw - chickenshyt
Asgenar - Lost City
mrninja - ?? - just an idiot

Some (like you) far more than others (your actually the most prolific hater on the boards), and some just trying to reason out whats going on and actually doing better at explaining the difficulties and differences of the class than others.

Now, as to playing any other class to a high level. Nope, and I don't PRESUME to talk about how easy or hard some other class is because I actually KNOW I haven't played it to a respectable level... unlike YOU on the other hand.

Unlike you, I have never claimed to have a character that is high level other than the one I post with.

Unlike you, I don't have an unreasonable hatred for a class because they can do something I can't ( I do envy BM's their AOE grinding and stunning ability, and Barbs their massive HP's and tanking ability, Archers insane knockback, damage and PvP ability, and Wizzies high damage potential and of course Clerics ability to heal themselves and others as well as buff themselves and others.. but I don't CRY about it because I know those are simply parts DESIGNED into the class).

Say whatever you like. The simple fact is, you hate the class w/o knowing much of what your talking about because you don't have the experience with the class to back it up... yet when confronted with proof to the contrary you dismiss it out of hand.

And again... Unlike you I don't hide what I say behind an alt, and I actually have a set and post with my main. Cowards hide behind alts. Nuff said.

~Saitada

haha, whoever said I was posting "flame bait" obviously never sees anything wrong with Saitada's posts, or thinks he's a deity of some sort.
The reason I was pointing out I had an alt veno was because some veno (forget her name...foxx trott?) was hinting how difficult it was to play a veno, which is completely nonsense.
Mind you, I don't hate venos, in person, themselves. They're people, I have no reason to hate one that plays a class on a computer game. It's the class I believe is overpowered, and obviously as many topics have been started on this, so do others. Yeah yeah, I already said venos were a soloing class too. But why so much? Fresh new evidence: a veno with a herc got a group to open squad mode in TT 2-2, and soloed it herself. Four manes dropped. And that's for only one boss. Wow, at least 4 mil in a few hours, and she could do it all by herself. A veno with a simple magmite solos 2-2 and gets claws from the first boss. Up to even a few weeks ago, they were at least 200k each. Just keep doing the first boss over and over. Need people to open squad mode? No problem, I did this myself the other day: ask people around TT if they have 30 seconds to help open a door, and more often then not they'll help.
Evidence is sometimes used fallaciously. Such as using PvP rankings to prove venos aren't overpowered in PvP, when the main issue is venos with phoenix, and not having any data on how many phoenix venos actually PvP. And that leads into another problem: topic muddling. You used the list to show how venos aren't ovp in PvP, but we were talking about, once again, phoenix venos in PvP. Thus when i'm confronted with "contrary" evidence, I show how it doesn't directly prove your point, or sometimes not at all, such as with a faulty comparison. I just don't add as much "flame bait" to mine.
If you were truly trying to use logic to out-argue me, you wouldn't care about my avatar. Doing that only diverts the topic.

chipsing1234

Batseba - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Your arguments aren't legit.

There I said it! They're not legit because they're born out of the wrong reasoning and sentiment.

Less cynicism and a more relaxed attitude would do you good. But I'm making assumptions now, and I don't like doing that.

Corsen

If they're not legit, people wouldn't be doing the exact, or very similar thing right now on the new servers. Why else do you think so many venos were at the top of the list on the new servers? Oh yes, other classes have distributed the rankings somewhat now, but once they reach 60, who's gonna get the edges for them? In Harshlands, there are only currently 4 clerics in the top 50. Yeah, doing TT isn't gonna be much of an option for classes other than venos when they hit 60. Thus, they'll be forced to buy edges (most weaps are made of them) from venos who solo the dungeon, or else use an underleveled weapon.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

chipsing1234 wrote: »

haha, whoever said I was posting "flame bait" obviously never sees anything wrong with Saitada's posts, or thinks he's a deity of some sort.
The reason I was pointing out I had an alt veno was because some veno (forget her name...foxx trott?) was hinting how difficult it was to play a veno, which is completely nonsense.
Mind you, I don't hate venos, in person, themselves. They're people, I have no reason to hate one that plays a class on a computer game. It's the class I believe is overpowered, and obviously as many topics have been started on this, so do others. Yeah yeah, I already said venos were a soloing class too. But why so much? Fresh new evidence: a veno with a herc got a group to open squad mode in TT 2-2, and soloed it herself. Four manes dropped. And that's for only one boss. Wow, at least 4 mil in a few hours, and she could do it all by herself. A veno with a simple magmite solos 2-2 and gets claws from the first boss. Up to even a few weeks ago, they were at least 200k each. Just keep doing the first boss over and over. Need people to open squad mode? No problem, I did this myself the other day: ask people around TT if they have 30 seconds to help open a door, and more often then not they'll help.
Evidence is sometimes used fallaciously. Such as using PvP rankings to prove venos aren't overpowered in PvP, when the main issue is venos with phoenix, and not having any data on how many phoenix venos actually PvP. And that leads into another problem: topic muddling. You used the list to show how venos aren't ovp in PvP, but we were talking about, once again, phoenix venos in PvP. Thus when i'm confronted with "contrary" evidence, I show how it doesn't directly prove your point, or sometimes not at all, such as with a faulty comparison. I just don't add as much "flame bait" to mine.
If you were truly trying to use logic to out-argue me, you wouldn't care about my avatar. Doing that only diverts the topic.

The issue isn't with the Phoenix, it's with Flesh Ream.


Simply by stating something that isn't true, and that you should know isn't true by now, you're posting flame-bait.


You specifically made class/avatar an issue when you brought it up by claiming you had a low level veno yourself.


I'm not making your avatar or lack-there-of an issue, I'm just saying you're full of ****

andracil

Final and possibly first warning of this thread, not gonna look through all these posts: Quit the flaming, now.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

andracil wrote: »

Final and possibly first warning of this thread, not gonna look through all these posts: Quit the flaming, now.

Yes, ma'am.

Onxy - Harshlands

Right now TW can be renamed VW and I aint talking cars here. Also we no longer speak of Pking or getting PKed, the new terms are Nixing and Nixed respectively.

Semyezza - Heavens Tear

-headdesk- Why is it that I always see the same bleeding people whining about Venos being "easy to play," being "OP," "Nix should be nerfed for killing people," and "Herc should be nerfed for soloing TT"?

If you don't like it, sod off. Go play another game. Your whining isn't acknowledged as worthwhile.

Gasoline - Lost City

Yes venos with nix is insanely OP in pvp. Just stun + bleed and target is down.

Venos with herc is insanely OP in pve and can make shietload of money. I made around 1 mil soloing HH70 partymode last nite.

We can solo aoe to, just use the herc to tank 8-10 mobs. Its really good money even tho the xp is not that good compared to a BM doing solo aoe. But venos have no repair costs b:victory

Archers and wiz cant solo aoe at all, they have to spend like 2-3 USD per hour in zhenparty b:bye

The benefits of playing veno wont change tho even if its unfair to other classes. Developers have for some reason decided that 1 class can spend only 50 mil ingame gold and for that small amount they will be the best class in pvp and pve. I suggest everyone should go make a veno ... since thats obviously what developers want.

chipsing1234

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The issue isn't with the Phoenix, it's with Flesh Ream.


Simply by stating something that isn't true, and that you should know isn't true by now, you're posting flame-bait.


You specifically made class/avatar an issue when you brought it up by claiming you had a low level veno yourself.


I'm not making your avatar or lack-there-of an issue, I'm just saying you're full of ****

Yes, and which pet has the worst flesh ream? Phoenix. Did I really need to explicitly state that logical transition?
If I am posting flame bait, please tell me what Saitada is doing. If her daily insults, constant arrogant "nuff said," and personal comments aren't flame bait, and yet mine are, I believe something's wrong with your logic.
What am I stating that's not true again?
And lastly, you made no argument against my points, so you're just throwing words out. To take your term, calling me "full of ****" is a type of "flame bait," no?

chipsing1234

Semyezza - Heavens Tear wrote: »

-headdesk- Why is it that I always see the same bleeding people whining about Venos being "easy to play," being "OP," "Nix should be nerfed for killing people," and "Herc should be nerfed for soloing TT"?

If you don't like it, sod off. Go play another game. Your whining isn't acknowledged as worthwhile.

And why is it that all the venos on this forum label it as "whining" and refuse to see the problem from the point of view from other classes? You don't even seem to consider what an advantage being able to solo TT is. Just the fact that the game grants you that power, and you alone.
I'm afraid quickly categorizing arguments as "whine" isn't going to change the facts any. Venos still solo TT (some squad mode), and make large profits. Phoenix still kills quickly with bugged bleed, like it or not. Herc being nerfed is arguable; however, since venos can solo TT in the first place with a magmite or similar pet, the fact that they all lead into each other: solo TT w/magmite --> sell TT mats -->get enough money for herc --> get more amounts of money, potentially many more times the cost of herc-->perhaps phoenix, well then there's an issue.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Yes, and which pet has the worst flesh ream? Phoenix. Did I really need to explicitly state that logical transition?
If I am posting flame bait, please tell me what Saitada is doing. If her daily insults, constant arrogant "nuff said," and personal comments aren't flame bait, and yet mine are, I believe something's wrong with your logic.
What am I stating that's not true again?
And lastly, you made no argument against my points, so you're just throwing words out. To take your term, calling me "full of ****" is a type of "flame bait," no?

chipsing, you don't get it, do you?


Everything you post on this topic is intentionally antagonistic towards venos, and intended to be argumentative which should explain why players who have venos are being incendiary towards you meaning you brought that upon yourself.


Let's look at one of your posts, shall we?

And why is it that all the venos on this forum label it as "whining" and refuse to see the problem from the point of view from other classes?

Good start to the post. Upbeat and positive! b:pleased

You don't even seem to consider what an advantage being able to solo TT is.

This is true, it is an advantage to be able to do something except you forgot it takes much much longer to solo, but most people forget this because they are just irked they cannot do it with their chosen class.

Just the fact that the game grants you that power, and you alone.

This is true, but it's not a "power", it's the basis for the class which you conveniently forgot. Venomancer is the soloing class of the game, and that is what it's supposed to do: solo the game which happens to include TT.

I'm afraid quickly categorizing arguments as "whine" isn't going to change the facts any.

Except those arguments are oh so often voiced as complaints which are a form of whining which is something you have conveniently forgotten.

Venos still solo TT (some squad mode), and make large profits.

Some venos make large profits, some do not because that depends on the server economy and what items are going for at the time, and drops are not always as good as you are claiming, especially for TT 1-1. Some venos specifically state they can grind more in the amount of time it would require to solo TT.

Phoenix still kills quickly with bugged bleed, like it or not.

Is it the Phoenix, or the bleed effect? Can any high attack pet cause the same problem as the phoenix? It's, in essence, an erroneous argument from the get-go. The correct statement is to say that any pet can kill quickly with a bugged bleed because that is the truth because it puts the emphasis on what really is the problem, and not misleadingly placing blame on the phoenix.

It's flame-bait.

Herc being nerfed is arguable; however, since venos can solo TT in the first place with a magmite or similar pet, the fact that they all lead into each other: solo TT w/magmite --> sell TT mats -->get enough money for herc --> get more amounts of money, potentially many more times the cost of herc-->perhaps phoenix, well then there's an issue.

My, what a slippery slope we try to travel upon.


Yes, you are posting flame-bait, chipsing.

jalenstar4ever

Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »

Yes venos with nix is insanely OP in pvp. Just stun + bleed and target is down.

Venos with herc is insanely OP in pve and can make shietload of money. I made around 1 mil soloing HH70 partymode last nite.

We can solo aoe to, just use the herc to tank 8-10 mobs. Its really good money even tho the xp is not that good compared to a BM doing solo aoe. But venos have no repair costs b:victory

Archers and wiz cant solo aoe at all, they have to spend like 2-3 USD per hour in zhenparty b:bye

The benefits of playing veno wont change tho even if its unfair to other classes. Developers have for some reason decided that 1 class can spend only 50 mil ingame gold and for that small amount they will be the best class in pvp and pve. I suggest everyone should go make a veno ... since thats obviously what developers want.

What is it with you?

Are you really a veno, or another class in sheeps clothing?

You are a level 88 veno and yet you talk about venos with such venom that its just hard to believe, or it just can not be be possible that you are, and have been, a veno for 88 levels.

What is your underlying motive, man? Why so much self-hate?

88 levels! And you hate yourself.

It's almost as if you are a veno because you are a front-runner at heart and can't stand for others to be doing things you can not, but you can't wait to see venos nerfed so you can stop being a veno in peace without having to worry about a class doing things that you perceive as being "oh-so" powerful that you could not possibly live unless you too are doing those things.

It's either that or you are login on to the forums with your sisters account and posting with her veno. You know your sister, the one that beats you in everything you two do.

Your posts are oxymorons man.

They are so weird it's dumbfounding.

Saitada - Sanctuary

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Evidence is sometimes used fallaciously. Such as using PvP rankings to prove venos aren't overpowered in PvP, when the main issue is venos with phoenix, and not having any data on how many phoenix venos actually PvP. And that leads into another problem: topic muddling. You used the list to show how venos aren't ovp in PvP, but we were talking about, once again, phoenix venos in PvP. Thus when i'm confronted with "contrary" evidence, I show how it doesn't directly prove your point, or sometimes not at all, such as with a faulty comparison. I just don't add as much "flame bait" to mine.
If you were truly trying to use logic to out-argue me, you wouldn't care about my avatar. Doing that only diverts the topic.

You tried the same argument with the new servers as "proof" yourself, except yours failed because the first cpl days/weeks/months of a server won't show a true representation of it's power structure as the rankings do later on.

I showed you proof, both in LEVEL and PVP Rankings on 3 established and aged servers that Veno's didn't have the power you have tried claiming they do in PvP and PVE.

I also granted you that flesh ream DOES need fixing badly. And is not a point that you and I disagree with at all.

Data on how many Phoenix owning veno's is not even needed really... I point out the rankings on Lost City. A PVP server. I'd bet after being the weakest class in the game in PvP, the veno's there are quite happy to have something that even's the playing field and i'm betting dollars to dimes, you can bet every veno thats IN the top level and PvP rankings has a Nix and is determined to pay back all the asshats that used them as fat easy targets.

Is the Nix powerful. Yes. Coupled with Flesh ream in a PvP situation.. I agree it is an overpowered skill... but NOT in PvE. Is the class overpowered. I honestly don't believe so Chipsing. We have advantages and disadvantages just like any class. Some of ours if your HONEST with yourself, really need BOOSTING.

Tell me something. Prior to the Nix and Herc... what were Veno's??? In PvP??? MOST... unless they elected LA/HA builds.. just fat easy targets. At best. Deny it. You know you can't. The best PvP pet we had was a bug (sawfly) a sick blademaster with a broken arm could **** at and kill, followed shortly after by the Veno getting killed.

Now we have the Nix and Herc... Suddenly we are Over Powered. Before that, I only saw posts complaining about Veno's with sawfly's and Flesh ream. I.E. A bugged skill that even Veno's admit is bugged in PvP.

So.. we get two pets, and suddenly the forums are flooded with "Veno's are overpowered QQ" threads.

The reality is, the whines are because all your fat easy targets, ain't so fat and easy anymore (for you PvP'rs) and us Veno's have pets now that kill mobs fast and makes it easier for us to grind at higher levels faster than we had previously... but still slower (albiet only slightly slower now) than everyone else for the most part.

You know EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE stated for ages that Veno's leveled faster from 1-60 but after that the other classes caught up and passed them. Why? Hmmm? Answer that. WHY were Veno's always considered to be slow levelers AFTER lvl 60, and everyone else faster from 60 and up?

Ahhhh But.. now we have the Herc and the Nix. We can actually level almost as fast as an AOE BM now. (even with my Herc beating on the same number of mobs, a BM I recently worked near, still killed them faster than me, and I WAS using my nukes to kill as well. Died a few times when I grabbed agro b:laugh).

Bah. I've argued with you enough on this. Your steadfast refusal to acknowledge anything unless it fits your particular hatred for the class, or to try and discount or deny drop rates (example.. the 5 TT runs I made and posted drops here with my profit margin for each run) as not representative just shows you have a dislike for the class. And little or nothing more.

You have NOT played the class high enough to know, or appreciate the difficulties and pains the class has, yet you presume to tell us we are overpowered because, as a class designed to solo.. we solo. That is really all your arguments boil down to. QQ the solo class can solo QQ

And again. Post with your main. Don't cower behind an alt. Spew your hatred openly for all to see if your not afraid to have your faction members know who you are.

~Saitada

Coraline - Lost City

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

SOLO FB59 un-winded at lvl 70 takes more than 2 hours. With a Hercules. My drops, are rarely ever worth the time I put in.

Wine them and then they come close to breaking even. IF a mold drops, then I might make a little profit for a while.


~Saitada

Why in hell are you mining fb59....wtf. Nothing that is good drops in there except maybe the crystal headdress. You're better off farming fb19 for the moonlight bow. Wow...baddie.. GG

Saitada - Sanctuary

Coraline - Lost City wrote: »

Why in hell are you mining fb59....wtf. Nothing that is good drops in there except maybe the crystal headdress. You're better off farming fb19 for the moonlight bow. Wow...baddie.. GG

Because I am specifically AFTER the Crystal Headdress LOL. And FB19 drops have been primarily coin for me for some time. It's gotten very rare for me to get and actual drops. Same with 29 and 39 is kind 50/50. Haven't done any 49's in a while but last time I did they still dropped for me.

~S

Chaotiic - Lost City

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Because I am specifically AFTER the Crystal Headdress LOL. And FB19 drops have been primarily coin for me for some time. It's gotten very rare for me to get and actual drops. Same with 29 and 39 is kind 50/50. Haven't done any 49's in a while but last time I did they still dropped for me.

~S

Its your level, this might help drop rates

Saitada - Sanctuary

Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »

Its your level, this might help drop rates

Ahh thanks Chaotic, I'd seen that table around before but forgot to bookmark it. :-)

~S

chipsing1234

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

chipsing, you don't get it, do you?


Everything you post on this topic is intentionally antagonistic towards venos, and intended to be argumentative which should explain why players who have venos are being incendiary towards you meaning you brought that upon yourself.


Let's look at one of your posts, shall we?



Good start to the post. Upbeat and positive! b:pleased



This is true, it is an advantage to be able to do something except you forgot it takes much much longer to solo, but most people forget this because they are just irked they cannot do it with their chosen class.

"much longer to solo"? No, it doesn't. Having mentioned in a previous post when I asked a veno (6x) how long it took her to solo TT1-1, and she said 20 minutes, that's shorter than it takes most 6x squads to do squad mode.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is true, but it's not a "power", it's the basis for the class which you conveniently forgot. Venomancer is the soloing class of the game, and that is what it's supposed to do: solo the game which happens to include TT.

Yeah, you said it yourself: "solo the game." Other classes must find companions to do it with. Venos can do it alone. So much for balance. You can't keep using that reason...and stop putting words in my mouth. I've stated (agreed) many times that venos are a soloing class. Just not to this extent.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Except those arguments are oh so often voiced as complaints which are a form of whining which is something you have conveniently forgotten.

Stating venos can solo TT and potentially exploit it, while all other classes can't is whining? Pray tell. It seems like that's a pretty unfair advantage to me, even from an objective standpoint.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Some venos make large profits, some do not because that depends on the server economy and what items are going for at the time, and drops are not always as good as you are claiming, especially for TT 1-1. Some venos specifically state they can grind more in the amount of time it would require to solo TT.

Hmm, I've already mentioned TT 1-1 isn't so profitable anymore. What about the ones past that? You don't address them. Why? Because they're still profitable. Like the frenzy lion's claw example I pointed out earlier.
That last sentence is pretty weak, for evidence. You don't mention which venos, nor which TT, and specificly limit yourself to "some venos" to support yourself.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Is it the Phoenix, or the bleed effect? Can any high attack pet cause the same problem as the phoenix? It's, in essence, an erroneous argument from the get-go. The correct statement is to say that any pet can kill quickly with a bugged bleed because that is the truth because it puts the emphasis on what really is the problem, and not misleadingly placing blame on the phoenix.

It's flame-bait.

You post something half logical, then try to make it seem as if it proves the last sentence. It doesn't. It's a fallacy. But let's address what's before that.
I already said phoenix has the worst bleed. In other words, it does the most DoT. When people say "phoenix's are ovp," they are talking about the bleed. I am talking about the bleed. Saitada himself has agreed it should be un-bugged. There's not an issue with an "erroneous argument" when everyone's already on the same page. And even if I had an "erroneous argument," it wouldn't be "flame bait" unless there was something intentionally provocative in it.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

My, what a slippery slope we try to travel upon.

Slippery slope? No. A veno I know in Sanctuary (oh noes, my server!) did the exact same thing. Back when the server was still new. He is now one of the most powerful characters on the server, level, equip, and money-wise.

chipsing1234

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Data on how many Phoenix owning veno's is not even needed really... I point out the rankings on Lost City. A PVP server. I'd bet after being the weakest class in the game in PvP, the veno's there are quite happy to have something that even's the playing field and i'm betting dollars to dimes, you can bet every veno thats IN the top level and PvP rankings has a Nix and is determined to pay back all the asshats that used them as fat easy targets.

If every phoenix veno was determined to do that, they'd just get ganked in revenge when their victim comes back with his friends. It'd never end. Consider that as a reason? And most of your post was based on generalization ("veno's there are quite happy...", all-venos-want-revenge theory).

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Is the Nix powerful. Yes. Coupled with Flesh ream in a PvP situation.. I agree it is an overpowered skill... but NOT in PvE. Is the class overpowered. I honestly don't believe so Chipsing. We have advantages and disadvantages just like any class. Some of ours if your HONEST with yourself, really need BOOSTING.

Okay. I don't really discuss the phoenix as my primary point anyway. My honest generality of "venos are ovp" comes from their ability to solo TT. Now that much of the server is in high 6x-7x-low 8x, that has become a large factor.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Tell me something. Prior to the Nix and Herc... what were Veno's??? In PvP??? MOST... unless they elected LA/HA builds.. just fat easy targets. At best. Deny it. You know you can't. The best PvP pet we had was a bug (sawfly) a sick blademaster with a broken arm could **** at and kill, followed shortly after by the Veno getting killed.

Now we have the Nix and Herc... Suddenly we are Over Powered. Before that, I only saw posts complaining about Veno's with sawfly's and Flesh ream. I.E. A bugged skill that even Veno's admit is bugged in PvP.

So.. we get two pets, and suddenly the forums are flooded with "Veno's are overpowered QQ" threads.

The reality is, the whines are because all your fat easy targets, ain't so fat and easy anymore (for you PvP'rs) and us Veno's have pets now that kill mobs fast and makes it easier for us to grind at higher levels faster than we had previously... but still slower (albiet only slightly slower now) than everyone else for the most part.

Is this appeal to pity? Pathos? Once again, I dont care that much about phoenix, and we already agreed on that point. But with hercules comes again, the ability to solo even more TT, and get the money back in a hurry. Veno with herc soloes TT 2-2 squad mode for a few hours, gets potentially millions worth of mats (manes of consumers sell for ~900k ea, to state an example). Emphasis on a few hours. Venos in my faction have done it, I'd know.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

You know EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE stated for ages that Veno's leveled faster from 1-60 but after that the other classes caught up and passed them. Why? Hmmm? Answer that. WHY were Veno's always considered to be slow levelers AFTER lvl 60, and everyone else faster from 60 and up?

Ahhhh But.. now we have the Herc and the Nix. We can actually level almost as fast as an AOE BM now. (even with my Herc beating on the same number of mobs, a BM I recently worked near, still killed them faster than me, and I WAS using my nukes to kill as well. Died a few times when I grabbed agro b:laugh).

You tell me, why are venos considered slow levelers past 60? The only example you've used is AOE grinding, with bms. First, that only covers one class. Next, that only covers one sub-class of the class. Lastly, even the members of that specific subclass don't all do it, due to implicit costs (charms, repairs). I've even heard venos don't need zhen parties because they level close to, or just as fast as them solo-grinding.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Bah. I've argued with you enough on this. Your steadfast refusal to acknowledge anything unless it fits your particular hatred for the class, or to try and discount or deny drop rates (example.. the 5 TT runs I made and posted drops here with my profit margin for each run) as not representative just shows you have a dislike for the class. And little or nothing more.

For one, your TT runs were not complete. Did you do dimentoria and vipent? Second, 5 runs as concrete evidence to support your entire assertion that TT solo runs aren't profitable is clearly not enough. Would you like me to say of the stories I've heard (direct witnesses) of drops in solo TT runs? One's even posted in this thread: a veno got 4 gold mats in one run. That's even allowed in solo mode.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

You have NOT played the class high enough to know, or appreciate the difficulties and pains the class has, yet you presume to tell us we are overpowered because, as a class designed to solo.. we solo. That is really all your arguments boil down to. QQ the solo class can solo QQ

As far as I can remember, the only "difficulties" you've mentioned are that its difficult to fight when you multi aggro. And as far as I'm concerned, it's that way with every mage class. Normal pet hunger is resolved with a 10 coin pure water every 5 minutes, at minimum. That's cheaper than repair costs. And the devs even tossed you another egg by letting the blessing cure pet hunger forever.
Sure, use your "soloing" status to kill mobs super easily (compared to other classes). Use it to solo minibosses others would need a squad for. Use it to kill elite mobs single-handedly (at your level) that would be impossible for other classes without a large economic difference in spenditure. If your status as a "solo class" gave you the ability to solo the game (this is an example), it would seriously compromise the attractiveness of other classes, who must rely on others (which, admit it, no one likes) to get through many, many parts of the game. Thus, you can't really use that argument that "venos are a solo class, so we should be able to solo anything that we can atm" to support your more powerful soloing abilities (powerful being figurative, for those who cannot understand) as being perfectly fair.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

And again. Post with your main. Don't cower behind an alt. Spew your hatred openly for all to see if your not afraid to have your faction members know who you are.

Mind you, this is my main. I just never bothered to put my avatar in the window.

jalenstar4ever

chipsing1234 wrote: »

blah, blah, blah

Translation ...

b:cry b:cry b:cry b:cry

I'm sorry but all I ever see in your post anymore is one big ...

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Seriously, do you ever tire of whining?

It is obvious you hate everything about venos. There is no denying that venos have hurt you deeply and left you scarred. I fear that the upcoming genie changes will not relieve your pain nor satiate your hate. Does this mean that we are destined to have to continue listening to your incessant whining for all eternity?

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

chipsing1234 wrote: »

"much longer to solo"? No, it doesn't. Having mentioned in a previous post when I asked a veno (6x) how long it took her to solo TT1-1, and she said 20 minutes, that's shorter than it takes most 6x squads to do squad mode.

TT 1-1 is NOT squad mode, and is therefore, irrelevant. b:chuckle

Yeah, you said it yourself: "solo the game." Other classes must find companions to do it with. Venos can do it alone. So much for balance. You can't keep using that reason...and stop putting words in my mouth. I've stated (agreed) many times that venos are a soloing class. Just not to this extent.

So what? What do you want? To be able to solo TT squad mode? Or do you not want venos to be able to do it? Are you unhappy because a class you didn't choose to play can do something the class you did choose to play cannot do?

The grass is always greener on the otherside, isn't it?

IF you want to do what a veno can do, the roll a veno. There's your balance.

Stating venos can solo TT and potentially exploit it, while all other classes can't is whining? Pray tell. It seems like that's a pretty unfair advantage to me, even from an objective standpoint.

What's the exploit? Please explain the exploit since I seem to not be seeing it. And yes, making false claims like that is whining.

Hmm, I've already mentioned TT 1-1 isn't so profitable anymore. What about the ones past that? You don't address them. Why? Because they're still profitable. Like the frenzy lion's claw example I pointed out earlier.
That last sentence is pretty weak, for evidence. You don't mention which venos, nor which TT, and specificly limit yourself to "some venos" to support yourself.

I mentioned TT 1-1 in reference to drops. I was referencing TT in general in the amount of time required, specifically TT squad mode, and comparing it to the amount that could be made simply grinding for the same amount of time, so, as you can see, I did actually refer to squad mode indirectly by not referring to it directly. Next time I will be sure to mention what I am talking about so that there will be no confusion on yours, or anyone else's part.

[You post something half logical, then try to make it seem as if it proves the last sentence. It doesn't. It's a fallacy. But let's address what's before that.
I already said phoenix has the worst bleed. In other words, it does the most DoT. When people say "phoenix's are ovp," they are talking about the bleed. I am talking about the bleed. Saitada himself has agreed it should be un-bugged. There's not an issue with an "erroneous argument" when everyone's already on the same page. And even if I had an "erroneous argument," it wouldn't be "flame bait" unless there was something intentionally provocative in it.

So, you're saying the phoenix is the problem, yes? You said yourself "has the worst bleed" meaning it does the most damage with the bleed effect of the pets.

I asked which was it, the bird or the bleed effect even though you inferred the phoenix while trying to make it look like you meant the effect.

Which is why it's flame-bait. If you meant the bleed effect as being the problem, then mentioning the phoenix and it's attack power (inferred) would be unnecessary.

Slippery slope? No. A veno I know in Sanctuary (oh noes, my server!) did the exact same thing. Back when the server was still new. He is now one of the most powerful characters on the server, level, equip, and money-wise.

Yes, it's Slippery slope. You made the claim that one thing lead to another : "fact that they all lead into each other", as taken from your post here:

chipsing1234 wrote: »

"much longer to solo"? No, it doesn't. Having mentioned in a previous post when I asked a veno (6x) how long it took her to solo TT1-1, and she said 20 minutes, that's shorter than it takes most 6x squads to do squad mode.

TT 1-1 is NOT squad mode, and is therefore, irrelevant. b:chuckle

Yeah, you said it yourself: "solo the game." Other classes must find companions to do it with. Venos can do it alone. So much for balance. You can't keep using that reason...and stop putting words in my mouth. I've stated (agreed) many times that venos are a soloing class. Just not to this extent.

So what? What do you want? To be able to solo TT squad mode? Or do you not want venos to be able to do it? Are you unhappy because a class you didn't choose to play can do something the class you did choose to play cannot do?

The grass is always greener on the otherside, isn't it?

IF you want to do what a veno can do, the roll a veno. There's your balance.

Stating venos can solo TT and potentially exploit it, while all other classes can't is whining? Pray tell. It seems like that's a pretty unfair advantage to me, even from an objective standpoint.

What's the exploit? Please explain the exploit since I seem to not be seeing it. And yes, making false claims like that is whining.

Hmm, I've already mentioned TT 1-1 isn't so profitable anymore. What about the ones past that? You don't address them. Why? Because they're still profitable. Like the frenzy lion's claw example I pointed out earlier.
That last sentence is pretty weak, for evidence. You don't mention which venos, nor which TT, and specificly limit yourself to "some venos" to support yourself.

I mentioned TT 1-1 in reference to drops. I was referencing TT in general in the amount of time required, specifically TT squad mode, and comparing it to the amount that could be made simply grinding for the same amount of time, so, as you can see, I did actually refer to squad mode indirectly by not referring to it directly. Next time I will be sure to mention what I am talking about so that there will be no confusion on yours, or anyone else's part.

[You post something half logical, then try to make it seem as if it proves the last sentence. It doesn't. It's a fallacy. But let's address what's before that.
I already said phoenix has the worst bleed. In other words, it does the most DoT. When people say "phoenix's are ovp," they are talking about the bleed. I am talking about the bleed. Saitada himself has agreed it should be un-bugged. There's not an issue with an "erroneous argument" when everyone's already on the same page. And even if I had an "erroneous argument," it wouldn't be "flame bait" unless there was something intentionally provocative in it.

So, you're saying the phoenix is the problem, yes? You said yourself "has the worst bleed" meaning it does the most damage with the bleed effect of the pets.

I asked which was it, the bird or the bleed effect even though you inferred the phoenix while trying to make it look like you meant the effect.

Which is why it's flame-bait. If you meant the bleed effect as being the problem, then mentioning the phoenix and it's attack power (inferred) would be unnecessary.

Slippery slope? No. A veno I know in Sanctuary (oh noes, my server!) did the exact same thing. Back when the server was still new. He is now one of the most powerful characters on the server, level, equip, and money-wise.

Yes, it's Slippery slope. You made the claim that one thing lead to another : "fact that they all lead into each other" as taken from your post here : http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=1892082&postcount=222



For your reading pleasure, of course.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

For your reading pleasure, of course.

Saitada - Sanctuary

chipsing1234 wrote: »

You tell me, why are venos considered slow levelers past 60? The only example you've used is AOE grinding, with bms. First, that only covers one class. Next, that only covers one sub-class of the class. Lastly, even the members of that specific subclass don't all do it, due to implicit costs (charms, repairs). I've even heard venos don't need zhen parties because they level close to, or just as fast as them solo-grinding.

I used an AOE Blademaster as an example because I was grinding near one two days ago and he was killing mobs significantly faster than me and my Herc... He was the same level as I am.

POINT here chipsing... again I stress.. why is it Veno's have ALWAYS been stated to level SLOWER AFTER 60, and other classes to level faster after 60. Answer that. PLEASE DO refute everyone who has made the statement that Venos level slower than everyone else after 60. I'll enjoy watching you make a fool of yourself again when you try that.

chipsing1234 wrote: »

For one, your TT runs were not complete. Did you do dimentoria and vipent? Second, 5 runs as concrete evidence to support your entire assertion that TT solo runs aren't profitable is clearly not enough. Would you like me to say of the stories I've heard (direct witnesses) of drops in solo TT runs? One's even posted in this thread: a veno got 4 gold mats in one run. That's even allowed in solo mode.

You stated Veno's make more money doing TT runs (which is the entire basis for your whines). You did NOT state only higher level runs. I gave my runs as examples that your statement was patently flawed. Now let me tell you something. 2-1 squad mode. Think a 71 LA Veno can do it? If you do, you would be wrong. I can't tank the first boss for more than about 2 minutes in 2-1 squad mode. WITH A HERCULES MY LEVEL.

The "large" gold drops you talk about are EXCEPTIONALLY RARE and FAR from the norm. You know this as well as I do. Trying to point that out over and over is just fail because of how rare it is.

Furthermore you also neglect to state the Veno's levels. High level Venos can do TT 1-1 through 1-3 runs faster and easier than lower level Veno's. As for the Veno that claimed to be able to do a TT 1-1 run in 20 minutes... That 'might' be possible at the higher end of the 6x range but sure as hell not at the lower end.

Remember something Chipsing. I posted data from my runs. Including the time it took me, and what matts besides the stuff from the bosses that dropped and their prices on the server to back up my statements. I gave a true presentation of my time, and costs.

While I do acknowledge that my runs may not be representative of other Veno's runs... do take note that the other Veno's posting in this thread haven't stated my runs were NOT an accurate representative of TT runs that they do. So you have yet to refute my runs. You can't state "Veno's can do TT runs and therefore get rich" and then when someone posts proof to the contrary switch your story to "Veno's that do higher level TT runs get rich." BTW you do know the bosses in FB59 are actually harder than the solo mode bosses in 1-1 1-2 1-3 and 2-1 don't you?

Keep grabbing at straws. Your arguments continue to fail. Basically the entire basis of your whine again is... Veno's can solo what others can't solo till later (or in some cases never).

As for Chipsing1234 being your main.. I've yet to see you in game. That doesn't really mean anything because it's a big world but.. I continue to doubt this is your main until you DO show proof. Your statement "I just haven't bothered to put up my avatar" is pretty weak. It takes all of three clicks to do it.

Finally.. a veno soloing TT 2-2 squad mode.. really... WHAT LEVEL VENO chipsing? hmmmmm At 71 I STILL can't solo 1-1 squad (dang AOE off the Lord of Percussion kills me every time lol.. [or was that 1-2 squad with the lord of percussion having an aoe??] Either way, STILL can't solo it sooooo... ) What level of Veno Chipsing? The level has a lot to do with it.

~Saitada

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Mind you, this is my main. I just never bothered to put my avatar in the window.

No, that's not your main. That is the forum name you picked when your created your account, unless, of course you picked the same name for your character which isn't possible.


In which case, all you have to do is switch to it and post. b:pleased


I do believe you when you say that you've never used your main on the forums though.

chipsing1234

Disregarding the fact you posted your post essentially twice,

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

TT 1-1 is NOT squad mode, and is therefore, irrelevant. b:chuckle

Sorry? As far as I'm concerned, there's a squad and solo mode for all TTs. Do you really know what you're talking about?

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So what? What do you want? To be able to solo TT squad mode? Or do you not want venos to be able to do it? Are you unhappy because a class you didn't choose to play can do something the class you did choose to play cannot do?

The grass is always greener on the otherside, isn't it?

IF you want to do what a veno can do, the roll a veno. There's your balance.

You're essentially pulling that useless "if you don't like it then do something else" statement again. It's not just my class who can't do it, it's every other class other than veno. Tell me where the balance is. As for your last statement, it's basically saying "go the imbalanced, overpowered route if you want to be happy," which doesn't solve the problem at all.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What's the exploit? Please explain the exploit since I seem to not be seeing it. And yes, making false claims like that is whining.

I really have to explain it? Okay. TT mats are relatively valuable. They are worth hundreds of thousands. They take (other classes) usually a full squad and hours to attain. They take many, many hours to get enough for one to actually use them to forge an item. Why are they so valuable? Because of the immense amounts of time it takes. Why does it take so much time? Because mats must be divided amongst a squad at the end, and more often than not (I've done many TT runs) only a few mats drop per boss. Many times (not exaggerating) just one, or even none. In the end, on average, each person gets one mat for the hours they put in.
However, venos can bypass that. They can solo it themselves. Not have to wait for a squad. Not have to beg for a barb to become available. Not have to accommodate everyone in the squad (i.e., if the cleric dies, wait for him to go to town and come all the way back). Lastly, all of the drops become theirs alone. Can you not see the exploiting potential of that? TT running for profit. In fact, it's become so commonplace, such a phrase as "farming TT" has come into existence. Furthermore, venos with herc can solo squad mode. The difficulty in finding 3 people to help you open the door is negligible, you can't make an argument out of that. Squad mode, now they can keep what was meant to be divided among 5-6 people all for themself! Millions are made in a single run, by a single veno. Can you see it now?

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So, you're saying the phoenix is the problem, yes? You said yourself "has the worst bleed" meaning it does the most damage with the bleed effect of the pets.

I asked which was it, the bird or the bleed effect even though you inferred the phoenix while trying to make it look like you meant the effect.

Which is why it's flame-bait. If you meant the bleed effect as being the problem, then mentioning the phoenix and it's attack power (inferred) would be unnecessary.

Lol. I say something, then you skew it and make it sound like I meant it that way. That's a fallacy. Why are we talking about this again? I already made it clear phoenix is not my main concern.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes, it's Slippery slope. You made the claim that one thing lead to another : "fact that they all lead into each other", as taken from your post here:

Erm, after this you repeat entirely what you posted before. Can you prove that they do not lead into each other? I know what a slippery slope is. Yet, if someone I know did exactly that, and had the exact same result (of enormous wealth in a relatively short amount of time), that proves that it is possible. Don't try to sound intelligent by labeling it as
"slippery slope", when you offer no evidence to the contrary. Even earlier in this thread someone posted that they were "planning" to do pretty much what my guide said.

DevilCrys - Heavens Tear

Veno that no lifes with phoenix on air mobs for 3 days can hit 63

I feel sorry for who ever hit 63+ In the first week of server release..No life

chipsing1234

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

I used an AOE Blademaster as an example because I was grinding near one two days ago and he was killing mobs significantly faster than me and my Herc... He was the same level as I am.

Did you spend 800k for both charms and 100k for repair costs afterwards? Oh wait, were you that veno who burned through charms like paper...? I guess I can't use that point then. But other venos have criticized you on that, Saitada. I've read several posts already, from venos, who claim that they use relatively little to no charm.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

POINT here chipsing... again I stress.. why is it Veno's have ALWAYS been stated to level SLOWER AFTER 60, and other classes to level faster after 60. Answer that. PLEASE DO refute everyone who has made the statement that Venos level slower than everyone else after 60. I'll enjoy watching you make a fool of yourself again when you try that.

So you offer no evidence, but instead appeal to the public. Alright.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

You stated Veno's make more money doing TT runs (which is the entire basis for your whines). You did NOT state only higher level runs. I gave my runs as examples that your statement was patently flawed. Now let me tell you something. 2-1 squad mode. Think a 71 LA Veno can do it? If you do, you would be wrong. I can't tank the first boss for more than about 2 minutes in 2-1 squad mode. WITH A HERCULES MY LEVEL.

Get to lvl 73 and the upgraded heal. What's the lvl requirement for 2-1 again? Being required (as a veno) to only be several levels (not even more than 10) above the minimum lvl requirement for TT isn't very big of a deal, is it? It's not like you have to be 15 lvls above the requirement to be able to solo it.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

The "large" gold drops you talk about are EXCEPTIONALLY RARE and FAR from the norm. You know this as well as I do. Trying to point that out over and over is just fail because of how rare it is.

Furthermore you also neglect to state the Veno's levels. High level Venos can do TT 1-1 through 1-3 runs faster and easier than lower level Veno's. As for the Veno that claimed to be able to do a TT 1-1 run in 20 minutes... That 'might' be possible at the higher end of the 6x range but sure as hell not at the lower end.

Remember something Chipsing. I posted data from my runs. Including the time it took me, and what matts besides the stuff from the bosses that dropped and their prices on the server to back up my statements. I gave a true presentation of my time, and costs.

While I do acknowledge that my runs may not be representative of other Veno's runs... do take note that the other Veno's posting in this thread haven't stated my runs were NOT an accurate representative of TT runs that they do. So you have yet to refute my runs. You can't state "Veno's can do TT runs and therefore get rich" and then when someone posts proof to the contrary switch your story to "Veno's that do higher level TT runs get rich." BTW you do know the bosses in FB59 are actually harder than the solo mode bosses in 1-1 1-2 1-3 and 2-1 don't you?

You pointed out how your 10 runs only gave drops 3 times. I pointed out how a veno in solo mode got the rarest drops possible in a single run. They're both snapshots. You kept using yours say how runs aren't profitable, when your runs first of all, are only yours. I've had 0 drops from squad mode bosses before.
Take note "that the other Veno's posting in this thread haven't stated my runs were NOT an accurate representative of TT runs that they do"? Are you serious? You cannot see the incredibly large fallacy you just used? Other venos don't say you are wrong, so that makes you right? What skewed logic. I state "venos can do TT runs and therefore get rich" because I've witnessed it happen. Or would you like to state that it hasn't happened? Fact is, it is able to happen, and only venos have such an option. Even mentioned previously: how venos keep TT prices down. Who gets the money from the mats? Venos. If it wasn't profitable, venos wouldn't do it, and prices would be much higher. Reality is, many venos still do it, flood the market, and keep prices lower. But they're still the only ones getting profit from that maneuver, because they're the only ones allowed to do such a thing.
I have no clue why you mentioned fb59 again.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Keep grabbing at straws. Your arguments continue to fail. Basically the entire basis of your whine again is... Veno's can solo what others can't solo till later (or in some cases never).

Stop using fallacies, stop using faulty comparisons, and stop picking at little inconveniences that would be impossibilities for other classes. Explicitly use valid evidence to disprove my assertion(s), and I will concede. Until then, I don't care for inflammatory responses from you or omglazerz.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Finally.. a veno soloing TT 2-2 squad mode.. really... WHAT LEVEL VENO chipsing? hmmmmm At 71 I STILL can't solo 1-1 squad (dang AOE off the Lord of Percussion kills me every time lol.. [or was that 1-2 squad with the lord of percussion having an aoe??] Either way, STILL can't solo it sooooo... ) What level of Veno Chipsing? The level has a lot to do with it.

Already addressed above.

chipsing1234

DevilCrys - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Veno that no lifes with phoenix on air mobs for 3 days can hit 63

I feel sorry for who ever hit 63+ In the first week of server release..No life

I agree. But..*shrugs* to each his/her own.

DevilCrys - Heavens Tear

You guys spend alot of time replying to eachother...Open a window

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear

Hi, tensashadow! How ya doin'? I see you've posted another really really really long post saying nothing, so I'll just quote it without really replying or saying anything new since you aren't either! b:pleased

Yes, I am fully aware that you are at least a level 7x Blademaster on Sanctuary, in the guild Legendary.

Why you have such hate for the venomancer, I have no idea since every post you make just keeps saying the same thing over and over and over. Are you unhappy that as a Blademaster you cannot do what they can? Is it class envy? Do you want the ability to solo that which you cannot solo stripped from the venomancer in the name of what you call "balance"?

When I say TT squad mode I mean the modes that require a squad to start which is why I call the "squad mode", so stop bringing up solo modes. So what if a veno can solo solo mode? So what if a veno can solo squad mode. It's actually IRRELEVANT, and, more importantly, it's not important.


And then you pull numbers out of your ****. GG


OMG, they can make MILLIONS.

Did you know, at level 23 I bought two Christmas Blessings for a total of 3 million with my venomancer? TWO

OMG MILLIONS AT LEVEL 23!!!111

Shut up about your "millions" ****.


I don't have to skew what you said to make it to be a slippery slope argument.

It's worded in such a way that it actually is one.


Go back to your Blademaster Tensashadow on Sanctuary, and shut up about venomancers.

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Disregarding the fact you posted your post essentially twice,

Sorry? As far as I'm concerned, there's a squad and solo mode for all TTs. Do you really know what you're talking about?



You're essentially pulling that useless "if you don't like it then do something else" statement again. It's not just my class who can't do it, it's every other class other than veno. Tell me where the balance is. As for your last statement, it's basically saying "go the imbalanced, overpowered route if you want to be happy," which doesn't solve the problem at all.




I really have to explain it? Okay. TT mats are relatively valuable. They are worth hundreds of thousands. They take (other classes) usually a full squad and hours to attain. They take many, many hours to get enough for one to actually use them to forge an item. Why are they so valuable? Because of the immense amounts of time it takes. Why does it take so much time? Because mats must be divided amongst a squad at the end, and more often than not (I've done many TT runs) only a few mats drop per boss. Many times (not exaggerating) just one, or even none. In the end, on average, each person gets one mat for the hours they put in.
However, venos can bypass that. They can solo it themselves. Not have to wait for a squad. Not have to beg for a barb to become available. Not have to accommodate everyone in the squad (i.e., if the cleric dies, wait for him to go to town and come all the way back). Lastly, all of the drops become theirs alone. Can you not see the exploiting potential of that? TT running for profit. In fact, it's become so commonplace, such a phrase as "farming TT" has come into existence. Furthermore, venos with herc can solo squad mode. The difficulty in finding 3 people to help you open the door is negligible, you can't make an argument out of that. Squad mode, now they can keep what was meant to be divided among 5-6 people all for themself! Millions are made in a single run, by a single veno. Can you see it now?


Lol. I say something, then you skew it and make it sound like I meant it that way. That's a fallacy. Why are we talking about this again? I already made it clear phoenix is not my main concern.


Erm, after this you repeat entirely what you posted before. Can you prove that they do not lead into each other? I know what a slippery slope is. Yet, if someone I know did exactly that, and had the exact same result (of enormous wealth in a relatively short amount of time), that proves that it is possible. Don't try to sound intelligent by labeling it as
"slippery slope", when you offer no evidence to the contrary. Even earlier in this thread someone posted that they were "planning" to do pretty much what my guide said.