schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited July 2014
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Well dont know where to start .
Finally i got my chance to try out my 13k GS HR on prev .
Melee pathfinder build with only 1 artifact t2 pvp set t2 Seal weapon and off hand and 27k hp 500 regen 800 LS 4k power 800crit and cap arp 25% .
First of all i managed 60% deflection this is outrageus i have only rank 6 -7 enchant not one was silver .
The second thing i managed with only 1 rank 7 dark to gain 30% ls .
All i can say i beat all ppl-s ind IWD prev and i am really bad with ranger .
If i remember right i only played with my ranger around 10-12 hour total and this was the time when i lvl ed up from 1-60 .
I have beat large variant player with rank 10 enchant and with 3 legend arti and full BI gear .
GF was a joke GWF was more bigger joke TR was a joke CW was bit different but he have zero chance after i figured out what to do aganst him.
I have no luck to try aganst SW but i dont think he can kill me. And i dont think DC can do anithing agans any type of HR.
Also i try my self out vs rangers so the Archery tree he was dead meat in micro sec .
But the fun part was VS another HR melee pathfinder after 15 min hitting each other we gived up its cristal clear HR mp cannot kill another hr mp.
Well i all i can say the live vesion of HR is less overpowered then the prev HR .
Also in pve he is super strong nothing can kill him .
Unkillable ignoring any DR and even a low GS bad player can soo OP only the best of GF and CW can beat him.
PS: to devs if you dont belive me just mail me say the time and i will log in and show you the new god of NW.
Feedback
Well dont know where to start .
Finally i got my chance to try out my 13k GS HR on prev .
Melee pathfinder build with only 1 artifact t2 pvp set t2 Seal weapon and off hand and 27k hp 500 regen 800 LS 4k power 800crit and cap arp 25% .
First of all i managed 60% deflection this is outrageus i have only rank 6 -7 enchant not one was silver .
The second thing i managed with only 1 rank 7 dark to gain 30% ls .
All i can say i beat all ppl-s ind IWD prev and i am really bad with ranger .
If i remember right i only played with my ranger around 10-12 hour total and this was the time when i lvl ed up from 1-60 .
I have beat large variant player with rank 10 enchant and with 3 legend arti and full BI gear .
GF was a joke GWF was more bigger joke TR was a joke CW was bit different but he have zero chance after i figured out what to do aganst him.
I have no luck to try aganst SW but i dont think he can kill me. And i dont think DC can do anithing agans any type of HR.
Also i try my self out vs rangers so the Archery tree he was dead meat in micro sec .
But the fun part was VS another HR melee pathfinder after 15 min hitting each other we gived up its cristal clear HR mp cannot kill another hr mp.
Well i all i can say the live vesion of HR is less overpowered then the prev HR .
Also in pve he is super strong nothing can kill him .
Unkillable ignoring any DR and even a low GS bad player can soo OP only the best of GF and CW can beat him.
A troll is a troll is a troll mr gwf...
But enough is enough if you dare name time and place on preview meet me up with you using same gear you mention here and we see how long you live against my hr (who according to you cant kill you) i will also arange for you to face gfs and Cws that are bis geared and i very much like to see you kill them with ease.
This is a challange to your statement prove it and I confirm it otherswise never write here again ............
Ps There will ofc be with same conditions as in pvp no pets no use of any potions but glory potion and dont forget healing dep dont work outside dominaition...
60% Deflection or more only aquireable when 5 people are trying to melee the HR. The HR also lost (depending on how many were previously attacking, and at which range) up to 25% DR, which did NOT show up in the listed up stats, but were present (Lonewolf). Old Lonewolf got weaker as people engaged at short range, new Lonewolf gets STRONGER.
Another thing is that PvP Gear is WAY to viable for PvE content. A PvE Geared player is effortlessly slaughtered in PvP, so there should be measures to make a PvE fight unlikely to be winnable in PvP Gear.
Also, you fought '3x Leg Arty and R10' Players on Preview - and now, ask the same players to fight you using a freshly transferred character, with a Screenshot directly from Live. Having Legendary/R10 on Preview is not a sign of knowing to use a Character, since Charcopy can be used to 'dupe' stuff like Greater Marks, Wards and other assets over to Preview. People have been 'duping' multiple thousand Lockbox Keys or 7/7 Day Invoke coffers over.
As is the fact with the 'Liveserver' GWF, the HR becomes ridiculous once you pass the 11-12k GS line. So every 'adjustment' suggested to the Class will seem 'fine' with someone who is 'purpled out', but will ultimately destroy it below that. T2 Seal Weapon is borderline, but due to the time and 'win' effort (when trying to speed it up with doing the daily Domination victory, too), the T2 PvP Set can not be considered 'Casual' and 'Low Grade', especially due to the fact that you WILL get flamed by PvPers for 'ruining their game mode.
Please come up with an idea that does not kill it off for PvE or lower geared players. Aka for those who do not have the 'BiS' PvP Armor.
My HR, in RG Armor, with 40% Deflection, still needs to use Potions when she eats a 'Big Hit'. I do not get the Profound Proc to Heal on Deflect either. In a Bossfight with no Adds, her Damage is low (which affects LS Returns) and her Deflection stays at 'only' boosted by 2% over 15%(Rank 3) from Lonewolf.
I posted a suggestion for Medicine, which has been buried in the Discussion Thread. I also suggest removing the whole 'when inside of x' mechanic from Lonewolf, and give it the simple 5% per rank Deflection it has now, done. This limits the HR (3k Deflect Rating) to around 52%, instead of 60 or more, when ganged up upon. DR from Lonewolf is gone, so the remaining Damage that goes through Deflection WILL be higher. Or, maybe, change the Lonewolf Range mechanic to 1 or 2% crit chance, capped at 5/10% instead? This should also increase the intended 'Cornered Beast' impression I get from it.
If passive healing is an issue for the HR (actually, I'd say for EVERYONE), there should rather be a reexamination of the formulas for Regeneration (or rebalancing of the Regen Rings, from the Pegasus Seal Vendor) . Wilds Medicine requires to either sit in Forest Meditation or get whacked (aka engage in combat), Lifesteal requires to attack (aka engage in combat). So technically, it isn't Medicine or Lifesteal that is out of whack, it might actually be Regeneration which promotes a passive, low risk and 'unskilled' Playstyle, as it has been called further upwards.
60% Deflection or more only aquireable when 5 people are trying to melee the HR. The HR also lost (depending on how many were previously attacking, and at which range) up to 25% DR, which did NOT show up in the listed up stats, but were present (Lonewolf). Old Lonewolf got weaker as people engaged at short range, new Lonewolf gets STRONGER.
Another thing is that PvP Gear is WAY to viable for PvE content. A PvE Geared player is effortlessly slaughtered in PvP, so there should be measures to make a PvE fight unlikely to be winnable in PvP Gear.
60% deflection is easy to get with just 3 people attacking the HR and Pathfinders Action Combined
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
So you are in favour of nerfing a base class feature, because a specific nice build used PvP is overperforming?
Well all peeps fight hr without healing dep in icewind and dont understand that in domination ALL healing for Hrs is cut in half that is 50% less from what they experiance now, that is to say the least a HUGE differance ......
Wilds Medicine/Aspect of the Lone Wolf/Dodge mechanics:
Wilds Medicine -This feat is doing ridiculous healing. Compare it to similar class feats such as "GWF Unstoppable Recovery" which heals 5% HP whenever you unstoppable, or even compare this to a DC Healing Word, and it outheals both of those by ALOT...
I get Combat HRs "need" some healing mechanic to stay alive, however this combined with Aspect of the lone wolf, Alot of HRs are running more than 50% deflect. Which is giving these WM stacks very fast stack gaining as well as continuous healing.
Since this is a T3 feat, arguable it should be stronger than Unstoppable Recovery for GWFs (similar). But since its triggered off a "deflect", with no ICD even giving it 5% HP regen would make it stronger.
With no ICD however, this makes it WAY too powerful as 1 DoT would heal an HR to full HP very quickly (this is exactly like the HR pvp set on LIVE - 2.5% not respecting healing depression = 5% with HD), hence why a HoT I think IS best for the feat. So 5% over 5 seconds seems reasonable. This gives you the SAME 2.5% on LIVE post HD, however spread over 5 seconds makes it much less "bursty". 2.5% over 5 seconds seems a TAD lackluster and would be a big "nerf" from the current form so I think in the range of 6-8% over 5 seconds is more than reasonable without stacking.
Some of the "pushback" and one thing I have experienced from leveling my HR from JUST pvping is their dodge mechanic can be annoying.
- From the HR PoV it seems really weak because you dont move very far NOR have much "cc immunity frames"
- From the Opponents PoV its very frustrating fighting an HR because they constantly "dodge" encounters.
I think there is a misconception of its "value" and its not providing enough CC immunity for the HR.
Dodge Mechanic:
- Increase the RANGE of each "dodge" by about 33%. But increase the stamina consumption of each dodge by 25%. This would give the HR much more reliable "CC immunity" frames, and I think provide more balance to the class in the form of ability to avoid attacks.
Aspect of the Lone WolfThe only consideration I think here would be to provide deflect AND something else, like run speed, instead of pure deflect. Look at Bravery as an example for GWFs.
The thing about PVP is "DPS" and pure "DR" are not the way to approach PVP. PVP is all about burst ability and how much burst you can deal in a short amount of time - to counter alot of the self healing. So stacking 50+% deflect is "burst" mitigation that ALSO cannot be mitigated via debuffs or ARP. The old aspect was far too strong for the defense it gave, and I think the new deflect version is honestly almost as good.
- I think splitting the difference for +5% Defense/Deflect Base: Rank 1: Add +1% deflect and defense for each opponent within X feet
Rank 2: Add +1% deflect defense for each....
(3 stacks max) = +6% DR/Defl max = 11% each total.
This would give a total of +7% Deflect AND DR in 1v1 scenarios and say in a 5v5 matchup, it would provide 15% Deflect and DR.and Defense
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
edited July 2014
And that's why any testing from IWD 'duels' is not exactly valid. On top of that, a lot of those 'losing' people that cry 'I lost even with BiS everything R10 Perfects and Legendary BiS Artifacts' do not have those assets on Live, and only created them via Charcopy Dupe of mountains of Coals and Greater Marks or other high grade 'fuel' items.
With no ICD however, this makes it WAY too powerful as 1 DoT would heal an HR to full HP very quickly (this is exactly like the HR pvp set on LIVE - 2.5% not respecting healing depression = 5% with HD), hence why a HoT I think IS best for the feat. So 5% over 5 seconds seems reasonable. This gives you the SAME 2.5% on LIVE post HD, however spread over 5 seconds makes it much less "bursty". 2.5% over 5 seconds seems a TAD lackluster and would be a big "nerf" from the current form so I think in the range of 6-8% over 5 seconds is more than reasonable without stacking.
- I think splitting the difference for +5% Defense/Deflect Base: Rank 1: Add +1% deflect and defense for each opponent within X feet
Rank 2: Add +1% deflect defense for each....
(3 stacks max) = +6% DR/Defl max = 11% each total.
This would give a total of +7% Deflect AND DR in 1v1 scenarios and say in a 5v5 matchup, it would provide 15% Deflect and DR.and Defense
Using the appropriate Class Features, the GWF can easily reach 40% Deflection or more, in addition to the DR they have from Armor, in addition to Unstoppable/NewSprint. The HR just lost actual DR, so even deflected hits WILL hurt more.
Your '5/6/8% over 5s' Medicine Suggestions turn the feat to garbage. An effective Nerf of 52% in case of 8%/5s, 64% in case of 6%/5s, 70% in case of 5%/5s. Feat Killed. GG.
It has been proven that they can adjust powers and feats to work differently in PvE and PvP. Let them use that 'new' technology to factor it out. Maybe they should finally fix the fact that DoT effects can be deflected in the first place instead? That would also fix the 'braindead DoT user happily whacking into the HR sitting in Meditation'.
And I actually get the impression that your issue with it firing on Deflection is less with the Heal Feats, and actually with Forest Meditation. So why not have, while FM is up, each Deflection remove Medicine, and 'lock' Medicine down to 'not firing' while you are in the 'Position'?
However, if the 5/10/15% Deflect Chance on Lonewolf stays, the 'a different passive Effect' (no Deflect and certainly no DR or Lifesteal) suggestion is appropriate. Since the 5 vs. 5 example would not only make the HR Deflect a lot again - but also give back DR, which the change to Lonewolf actually wanted to get RID of.
- I think splitting the difference for +5% Defense/Deflect Base:
Rank 1: Add +1% deflect and defense for each opponent within X feet
Rank 2: Add +1% deflect defense for each....
(3 stacks max) = +6% DR/Defl max = 11% each total.
This would give a total of +7% Deflect AND DR in 1v1 scenarios and say in a 5v5 matchup, it would provide 15% Deflect and DR.and Defense
And welcome back ayroux to the nowmore famous Nerfthehr Feedback thread for gfs and gwfs.....
I really love your suggestions like the new wolf you suggestion because lets not stop at the nerf from 20effective DR to 8.5 effective DR lets make it abit worse against 1-1 and for the sake of it if faced with more then 1 nerf it a bit more..
I mean Hr with the arsenal of anti cc and ccs to lock down some player when facing more then one they surly dont need any defence whish they have in abadundence now ..
Any more bright ideas to help trapper and archers in pvp .....
So you are in favour of nerfing a base class feature, because a specific build used PvP is overperforming?
If they really want to fix wild med move it to t2 trapper that way combat ranger and archery ranger would have to sacrifice something in order to have that regen and it can still be accessible to all three paths
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
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If they really want to fix wild med move it to t2 trapper that way combat ranger and archery ranger would have to sacrifice something in order to have that regen. and it can still be accessible to all three paths
I wise man has spoken -- would fix alot ....
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
And it would give the Trapper, aka the one who has CONTROL (you know, the thing basically nonexistant on Combat and Archer) the survival as a 'just pick it on the side, while ranking up anyway' Feat.
And what would the Trapper sacrifice from the 'current' Feats? Or better, what would be the replacement?
The Trapper would give up a 10% Damage bonus. For 50/25% over 15s, at 10, that seems, to ME, a poor exchange.
Imagine this: Trapper, able to keep the enemy at range or at least stop them cold as they run away. With access to the Capstone, Medicine instead of 10% Damage, and at equal gear, just 2.5% worse Deflection - when he doesn't decide to grab Fluid Hunter instead. And he can still consider grabbing the 5% Melee Stance Lifesteal.
To me, that would only change the whole issue into a different Tree. And the Archer or Combat (Which had been redesigned to not be 'Tabhammering' anymore) would have to pick a 'Tabhammering' Feat.
Maybe moving a performance-reduced Medicine to T2 Combat, and adding something else in its previous T3 spot? Since 2.5% Deflection from Fluid Hunter looks like a bad Joke.
Since a lot of suggestions from PvP HRs go towards 'Put it in Trapper', that should be just as alarming (or even more so, since Trapper has Roots and DoTs, instead of Survival and unavoidable Damage) to people like ayroux and Schweifer as my attempts to defend T3 Combat Medicine.
Schweifer: Thank you for the Screenshots. So one could say that the Issue might be made more dire by Pathfinder, not the Ranger Class overall, right?
And it would give the Trapper, aka the one who has CONTROL (you know, the thing basically nonexistant on Combat and Archer) the survival as a 'just pick it on the side, while ranking up anyway' Feat.
And what would the Trapper sacrifice from the 'current' Feats? Or better, what would be the replacement?
The Trapper would give up a 10% Damage bonus. For 50/25% over 15s, at 10, that seems, to ME, a poor exchange.
Imagine this: Trapper, able to keep the enemy at range or at least stop them cold as they run away. With access to the Capstone, Medicine instead of 10% Damage, and at equal gear, just 2.5% worse Deflection - when he doesn't decide to grab Fluid Hunter instead. And he can still consider grabbing the 5% Melee Stance Lifesteal.
To me, that would only change the whole issue into a different Tree. And the Archer or Combat (Which had been redesigned to not be 'Tabhammering' anymore) would have to pick a 'Tabhammering' Feat.
Maybe moving a performance-reduced Medicine to T2 Combat, and adding something else in its previous T3 spot? Since 2.5% Deflection from Fluid Hunter looks like a bad Joke.
Move WM to T2 Trapper give T3 Combat back its movement speed buff cause in all honesty i have no idea why they removed that. This way trappers have surviverability so do Archers and Combat ranger combat gets a lil more mobility. You call the trapper tree a tabhammer tree but it actually require some skill to play in PvP and every one can be happy
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
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Hey all, we are making a small change to Wilds Medicine to tune it down a little when the Ranger is under heavy fire. It was too easy to get 10 stacks very quickly and maintain them, providing a pretty constant uptime. We want that moment when you get the drop in the ranger to still matter so we are slowing down the rate at which you get stacks. We looked at rearranging the trees and moving Wilds Medicine around, but it didn't appropriately fit in with the goals of the other two trees so moving it just for the sake of "make combat spend 10 points in a different tree" didn't feel like a good option, and mostly felt like a punishment. So instead we have opted for the following.
Hunter Ranger: Wilds Medicine: Now has a 1 second ICD.
This will not affect PVE performance all that much during solo play but will have a fairly strong effect on PVP as it will take a minimum of 10 seconds to reach full stacks.
Your '5/6/8% over 5s' Medicine Suggestions turn the feat to garbage. An effective Nerf of 52% in case of 8%/5s, 64% in case of 6%/5s, 70% in case of 5%/5s. Feat Killed. GG.
It has been proven that they can adjust powers and feats to work differently in PvE and PvP. Let them use that 'new' technology to factor it out. Maybe they should finally fix the fact that DoT effects can be deflected in the first place instead? That would also fix the 'braindead DoT user happily whacking into the HR sitting in Meditation'.
How is 8% heal over 5 seconds garbage, the only thing youve said is its a nerf from the PTR. This is like the whiners who said regen would be garbage after they introduced healing depression. Well, turns out those guys were wrong and people are stacking even more regen now than before!
8% over 5 seconds - even BAD PVP HRs can get 35k HP (add in that new +4 Con belt and youll see HRs with 45k) @ 35k with healing depression HP this is the regen equiv of 840 regen ticks... I think thats MORE than fair....
And I actually get the impression that your issue with it firing on Deflection is less with the Heal Feats, and actually with Forest Meditation. So why not have, while FM is up, each Deflection remove Medicine, and 'lock' Medicine down to 'not firing' while you are in the 'Position'?
I have no issue with forest meditation. Dont really care about it TBH, although that is an easy way to get all 10 stacks up at once - my change this wouldnt matter at all.
However, if the 5/10/15% Deflect Chance on Lonewolf stays, the 'a different passive Effect' (no Deflect and certainly no DR or Lifesteal) suggestion is appropriate. Since the 5 vs. 5 example would not only make the HR Deflect a lot again - but also give back DR, which the change to Lonewolf actually wanted to get RID of.
The issue with LW was that it made HRs FAR tankier than even the tank classes. I dont mind them having SOME tools or even being hard to kill, but deflect stacking I dont think is the key. In fact, my suggestion is even a buff to "DR" to the HR so you should be happy.
No thoughts on the shift change? From my limited experience playing HR in PVP I found myself frustrated alot with shift. I found it wasnt something you could use "with skill" to avoid things but merely a "chance" game in avoiding and hoping they attack during the limited CC Immune frames.
Id like to see the HR dodge give a little more "distance" AND immunity frames - thus increasing the distance by about 1/3rd (33%) would add more CC immunity and distance to "escape" while increasing its stamina cost seems fair.
Hey all, we are making a small change to Wilds Medicine to tune it down a little when the Ranger is under heavy fire. It was too easy to get 10 stacks very quickly and maintain them, providing a pretty constant uptime. We want that moment when you get the drop in the ranger to still matter so we are slowing down the rate at which you get stacks. We looked at rearranging the trees and moving Wilds Medicine around, but it didn't appropriately fit in with the goals of the other two trees so moving it just for the sake of "make combat spend 10 points in a different tree" didn't feel like a good option, and mostly felt like a punishment. So instead we have opted for the following.
Hunter Ranger: Wilds Medicine: Now has a 1 second ICD.
This will not affect PVE performance all that much during solo play but will have a fairly strong effect on PVP as it will take a minimum of 10 seconds to reach full stacks.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Its not a punishment to make it 10 points into another tree both archer and combat would have to sacrifice something to get the skill. Weather it be dmg or life steal and sense trapper is already the higher skill cap tree cause it heavily uses the tab feature to maximise dps it be ok for that
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
How is 8% heal over 5 seconds garbage, the only thing youve said is its a nerf from the PTR. This is like the whiners who said regen would be garbage after they introduced healing depression. Well, turns out those guys were wrong and people are stacking even more regen now than before!
8% over 5 seconds - even BAD PVP HRs can get 35k HP (add in that new +4 Con belt and youll see HRs with 45k) @ 35k with healing depression HP this is the regen equiv of 840 regen ticks... I think thats MORE than fair....
I have no issue with forest meditation. Dont really care about it TBH, although that is an easy way to get all 10 stacks up at once - my change this wouldnt matter at all.
The issue with LW was that it made HRs FAR tankier than even the tank classes. I dont mind them having SOME tools or even being hard to kill, but deflect stacking I dont think is the key. In fact, my suggestion is even a buff to "DR" to the HR so you should be happy.
No thoughts on the shift change? From my limited experience playing HR in PVP I found myself frustrated alot with shift. I found it wasnt something you could use "with skill" to avoid things but merely a "chance" game in avoiding and hoping they attack during the limited CC Immune frames.
Id like to see the HR dodge give a little more "distance" AND immunity frames - thus increasing the distance by about 1/3rd (33%) would add more CC immunity and distance to "escape" while increasing its stamina cost seems fair.
Sorry, the Shift thing:
Maybe down from 6 Shifts to 4 in total, give the HR less, but longer Dodges. I would really like to be able to Dodge out of a, lets say, Dragon Boss AoE from the Middle to out of it in ONE step, instead of having to Doubledodge (Greens especially, that leave rather large Poison fields).
Also, we should await the upcoming Preview Patch and check the new change to the 'Issue' out, maybe it gets rid of some of the issues?
My 'Garbage' also refers to the 'Preview as it is now'. You see '8 over 5', and yes, compared to Live, it IS a good chunk. However, it needs be compared to a 'At full Performance, 50 over 15' Feat. So you need, in Theorycrafting, assume you have perfect 'Back to Back' activations, 3 times in a row. 24%/15s is, compared to the current Preview, horrible when in the more common 'T2 PvE gear, R6-R7 Enchants'. You are free to check up on me on Preview, if you are around like now. @handle is my forum name, I will sit in PE, in a PvE spec, and PvE gear. and yes, I am already on the 'better' end of the PvE spectrum, gear wise, but the only piece of 'PvP Gear' I have on myself is the Raven Skull.
How is 8% heal over 5 seconds garbage, the only thing youve said is its a nerf from the PTR. This is like the whiners who said regen would be garbage after they introduced healing depression. Well, turns out those guys were wrong and people are stacking even more regen now than before!
8% over 5 seconds - even BAD PVP HRs can get 35k HP (add in that new +4 Con belt and youll see HRs with 45k) @ 35k with healing depression HP this is the regen equiv of 840 regen ticks... I think thats MORE than fair....
I have no issue with forest meditation. Dont really care about it TBH, although that is an easy way to get all 10 stacks up at once - my change this wouldnt matter at all.
The issue with LW was that it made HRs FAR tankier than even the tank classes. I dont mind them having SOME tools or even being hard to kill, but deflect stacking I dont think is the key. In fact, my suggestion is even a buff to "DR" to the HR so you should be happy.
No thoughts on the shift change? From my limited experience playing HR in PVP I found myself frustrated alot with shift. I found it wasnt something you could use "with skill" to avoid things but merely a "chance" game in avoiding and hoping they attack during the limited CC Immune frames.
Id like to see the HR dodge give a little more "distance" AND immunity frames - thus increasing the distance by about 1/3rd (33%) would add more CC immunity and distance to "escape" while increasing its stamina cost seems fair.
back on HR class to also finish destroy it after destroy CW. Can you just ASK for dev to have your personnal i WIN button and stop ask to destroy any class that you don't play. because i want to remember you that those class also have solo part and thoses players are not here to satisfy you and that you want to be able to kill every one at will
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
Hey all, we are making a small change to Wilds Medicine to tune it down a little when the Ranger is under heavy fire. It was too easy to get 10 stacks very quickly and maintain them, providing a pretty constant uptime. We want that moment when you get the drop in the ranger to still matter so we are slowing down the rate at which you get stacks. We looked at rearranging the trees and moving Wilds Medicine around, but it didn't appropriately fit in with the goals of the other two trees so moving it just for the sake of "make combat spend 10 points in a different tree" didn't feel like a good option, and mostly felt like a punishment. So instead we have opted for the following.
Hunter Ranger: Wilds Medicine: Now has a 1 second ICD.
This will not affect PVE performance all that much during solo play but will have a fairly strong effect on PVP as it will take a minimum of 10 seconds to reach full stacks.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Thanks a lot for NOT listening to those who want to give Medicine, which is imo the 'Core' feat of the new Combat Tree, to a Feat line which retains (and improves) on performance that Combat no longer has.
Sorry, the Shift thing:
Maybe down from 6 Shifts to 4 in total, give the HR less, but longer Dodges. I would really like to be able to Dodge out of a, lets say, Dragon Boss AoE from the Middle to out of it in ONE step, instead of having to Doubledodge (Greens especially, that leave rather large Poison fields).
Also, we should await the upcoming Preview Patch and check the new change to the 'Issue' out, maybe it gets rid of some of the issues?
Putting myself in an HR shoes, I felt really limited with shift in its capabilities involving "pre-preemptive and re-active" timing I felt like I literally had to spam and pray with the current shift.
I like that idea, 4 total (so feated would be more) but more distance and immunity frames. I too found it annoying you couldnt escape AoE or "red" or even in PVP it takes SO long to try and "escape" sticky situations spamming 3+ Shifts. Maybe Even cutting shifts down to 4 then boosting each one about 40-50% could work really well.
Yes I wait to see what this 1 sec ICD will do to the feat, my worry on this is its not providing the HR enough "up front" survival but maybe still too much "back end" heals...
Id STILL probably rather see it heal more upfront, and less long term which would help the HR against more burst/short term damage in PVE and PVP. So I will wait to test though.
Hunter Ranger: Wilds Medicine: Now has a 1 second ICD.
This will not affect PVE performance all that much during solo play but will have a fairly strong effect on PVP as it will take a minimum of 10 seconds to reach full stacks.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
FEEDBACK
Simple math - assume we have 100% deflect so it will take 10 seconds to get 10 stacks. While first stack lasts 15 seconds with tick every 3rd second. So at top you can get full 10 stack only for 5 seconds. Really? And now lets see cap of deflection I was able to reach with AofLF and Pathfinder actions ~ 55% for 5-10 second. It means that you will need to have around 25 seconds to get 10 deflected atacks - how in this case 15 seconds of first one wM will last 25 if it lasts 15 seconds?
Is my math wrong in someway? All you did - cap it to 5-7. By what I see - there is no way you will reach 10 ever.
Simple math - assume we have 100% deflect so it will take 10 seconds to get 10 stacks. While first stack lasts 15 seconds with tick every 3rd second. So at top you can get full 10 stack only for 5 seconds. Really? And now lets see cap of deflection I was able to reach with AofLF and Pathfinder actions ~ 55% for 5-10 second. It means that you will need to have around 25 seconds to get 10 deflected atacks - how in this case 15 seconds of first one wM will last 25 if it lasts 15 seconds?
Is my math wrong in someway? All you did - cap it to 5-7. By what I see - there is no way you will reach 10 ever.
This is not how it works.
Each stack ticks entirely independently.
Being at 10 stacks doesn't cause each stack to heal more than having a single stack.
Also, the ICD only activates after you gain a stack, so your math of 25 seconds to reach 10 stacks is incorrect.
It is wildly variant with how dense the incoming attacks are. The more attacks incoming, the more likely you are to reach 10 stacks in 10 seconds, with a chance distribution of hitting it at any given second afterwards.
Being at 10 stacks doesn't cause each stack to heal more than having a single stack.
Also, the ICD only activates after you gain a stack, so your math of 25 seconds to reach 10 stacks is incorrect.
It is wildly variant with how dense the incoming attacks are. The more attacks incoming, the more likely you are to reach 10 stacks in 10 seconds, with a chance distribution of hitting it at any given second afterwards.
Dont forget DoTs or things like BriarTwine or GF's Guarded Assault.
Often times you can have 3-4+ things hitting you each second giving you easily more than enough chances to delf and build stacks.
Honestly I doubt youll even see THAT big a difference, id bet total effectiveness drops less than 15-20% from this.
Any person using Bile/GPF/Dots/GFs reflecting etc will all be proccing this...
Being at 10 stacks doesn't cause each stack to heal more than having a single stack.
Also, the ICD only activates after you gain a stack, so your math of 25 seconds to reach 10 stacks is incorrect.
It is wildly variant with how dense the incoming attacks are. The more attacks incoming, the more likely you are to reach 10 stacks in 10 seconds, with a chance distribution of hitting it at any given second afterwards.
Dont know crush to me white 1 icd seems Just impossible to reach full stacks.
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
edited July 2014
Any love for the Trapper coming? I couldn't care the less about WM...
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Being at 10 stacks doesn't cause each stack to heal more than having a single stack.
Also, the ICD only activates after you gain a stack, so your math of 25 seconds to reach 10 stacks is incorrect.
It is wildly variant with how dense the incoming attacks are. The more attacks incoming, the more likely you are to reach 10 stacks in 10 seconds, with a chance distribution of hitting it at any given second afterwards.
Crush, I understand that it works separately. Im saying that part
"Also, the ICD only activates after you gain a stack, so your math of 25 seconds to reach 10 stacks is incorrect."
May not allow you to get to 10 ever.
Ok. I was assuming that you have 1 atack per second. It is correct that you can get more then 1 in 1 sec.
but look. Assume you have 50% deflect chance - means that you need 2 or more attacks in 1 second to get it to 1 stack. I assume that after first stack is reached you have 1 sec ICD started. So on 2nd second you again need 2 or more attacks. And so on until you have at least 20 attacks each second to get a full stack of 10. So you will be left with only 10 full stack for 5 seconds? you can not get more since its over 10 stack.
In that 5 sec you will get only 2 ticks of regen as max = 2% of max health. But price for that is more then 30 attacks taken with 50% deflect change. Also we will see that deflect severity is ~ 50% so you basically will take 75% of damage from 30 attacks.
Im intentionally not using number of health points and so on since it may be different for char. My main idea is that reaching of 10 stack with 1 sec ICD is nearly impossible. It will require a lot of frequent attacks with a lot of small damage in timely manner. In situation where you have a lot of this - it is a combination of ticks - like many cws beams -but in pvp we have healing depression so it will be 2.5% not 5%.
for PVE - you really never have this situation.
Thanks for clarification in math. But still it is very big and questionable nerf for combat HR that just relay on Healing due to bugged/not working dodge / no cc brakers/ no good encounters.
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
edited July 2014
We looked at rearranging the trees and moving Wilds Medicine around, but it didn't appropriately fit in with the goals of the other two trees so moving it just for the sake of "make combat spend 10 points in a different tree" didn't feel like a good option, and mostly felt like a punishment.
If there was any "rearranging of trees" I'd say the Advanced Stalking feat should be moved into Trapper, swapping places with Slasher's Speed.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
I did some basic calculations
damage= hit damage = 1000 - for easy calc.
max HP = 30k
dc = deflection change = 50%
def = defence = 30%
ds = deflection severity = 50%
so if we have 2 hits every second we will have = (damage + (ds)*damage)*(1- def) = (1000 + 500)* 0.7 = 1050
eg 1050 damage each second. assume it will be stable for sake of theory
each 3 second of WM (tick) it will recover (30k *0.05) /5 ticks (15 sec /3 sec) = 1500/5 = + 500
So in total we will have 16 hit per 1050 with 33 ticks of WM over 16 sec for 500 health recover
- 16800 + 16500 = -300 health
But this is for basic idea calc where we have stable damage with 2 or more hits every second - no Crit hit nothing - this is the most ideal situation you can have - where HR will recover as much health as it looses. Real word is harder - CW with over 15k crit in one hit. GWF with 3k + damage on each swing, pve enemies dealing more then 2 atack at once - 5-8k damage.
This outline has 2 week points - small or medium damage by more then 2 sources ~ 1050 a sec is not a lot ~ every second. only in this case you can get max of WM. Now tell me how often you can see this happening?
PS I used 5% of pve not 2.5% of pvp.
Comments
Well dont know where to start .
Finally i got my chance to try out my 13k GS HR on prev .
Melee pathfinder build with only 1 artifact t2 pvp set t2 Seal weapon and off hand and 27k hp 500 regen 800 LS 4k power 800crit and cap arp 25% .
First of all i managed 60% deflection this is outrageus i have only rank 6 -7 enchant not one was silver .
The second thing i managed with only 1 rank 7 dark to gain 30% ls .
All i can say i beat all ppl-s ind IWD prev and i am really bad with ranger .
If i remember right i only played with my ranger around 10-12 hour total and this was the time when i lvl ed up from 1-60 .
I have beat large variant player with rank 10 enchant and with 3 legend arti and full BI gear .
GF was a joke GWF was more bigger joke TR was a joke CW was bit different but he have zero chance after i figured out what to do aganst him.
I have no luck to try aganst SW but i dont think he can kill me. And i dont think DC can do anithing agans any type of HR.
Also i try my self out vs rangers so the Archery tree he was dead meat in micro sec .
But the fun part was VS another HR melee pathfinder after 15 min hitting each other we gived up its cristal clear HR mp cannot kill another hr mp.
Well i all i can say the live vesion of HR is less overpowered then the prev HR .
Also in pve he is super strong nothing can kill him .
Unkillable ignoring any DR and even a low GS bad player can soo OP only the best of GF and CW can beat him.
PS: to devs if you dont belive me just mail me say the time and i will log in and show you the new god of NW.
A troll is a troll is a troll mr gwf...
But enough is enough if you dare name time and place on preview meet me up with you using same gear you mention here and we see how long you live against my hr (who according to you cant kill you) i will also arange for you to face gfs and Cws that are bis geared and i very much like to see you kill them with ease.
This is a challange to your statement prove it and I confirm it otherswise never write here again ............
Ps There will ofc be with same conditions as in pvp no pets no use of any potions but glory potion and dont forget healing dep dont work outside dominaition...
60% Deflection or more only aquireable when 5 people are trying to melee the HR. The HR also lost (depending on how many were previously attacking, and at which range) up to 25% DR, which did NOT show up in the listed up stats, but were present (Lonewolf). Old Lonewolf got weaker as people engaged at short range, new Lonewolf gets STRONGER.
Another thing is that PvP Gear is WAY to viable for PvE content. A PvE Geared player is effortlessly slaughtered in PvP, so there should be measures to make a PvE fight unlikely to be winnable in PvP Gear.
Also, you fought '3x Leg Arty and R10' Players on Preview - and now, ask the same players to fight you using a freshly transferred character, with a Screenshot directly from Live. Having Legendary/R10 on Preview is not a sign of knowing to use a Character, since Charcopy can be used to 'dupe' stuff like Greater Marks, Wards and other assets over to Preview. People have been 'duping' multiple thousand Lockbox Keys or 7/7 Day Invoke coffers over.
As is the fact with the 'Liveserver' GWF, the HR becomes ridiculous once you pass the 11-12k GS line. So every 'adjustment' suggested to the Class will seem 'fine' with someone who is 'purpled out', but will ultimately destroy it below that. T2 Seal Weapon is borderline, but due to the time and 'win' effort (when trying to speed it up with doing the daily Domination victory, too), the T2 PvP Set can not be considered 'Casual' and 'Low Grade', especially due to the fact that you WILL get flamed by PvPers for 'ruining their game mode.
Please come up with an idea that does not kill it off for PvE or lower geared players. Aka for those who do not have the 'BiS' PvP Armor.
My HR, in RG Armor, with 40% Deflection, still needs to use Potions when she eats a 'Big Hit'. I do not get the Profound Proc to Heal on Deflect either. In a Bossfight with no Adds, her Damage is low (which affects LS Returns) and her Deflection stays at 'only' boosted by 2% over 15%(Rank 3) from Lonewolf.
I posted a suggestion for Medicine, which has been buried in the Discussion Thread. I also suggest removing the whole 'when inside of x' mechanic from Lonewolf, and give it the simple 5% per rank Deflection it has now, done. This limits the HR (3k Deflect Rating) to around 52%, instead of 60 or more, when ganged up upon. DR from Lonewolf is gone, so the remaining Damage that goes through Deflection WILL be higher. Or, maybe, change the Lonewolf Range mechanic to 1 or 2% crit chance, capped at 5/10% instead? This should also increase the intended 'Cornered Beast' impression I get from it.
If passive healing is an issue for the HR (actually, I'd say for EVERYONE), there should rather be a reexamination of the formulas for Regeneration (or rebalancing of the Regen Rings, from the Pegasus Seal Vendor) . Wilds Medicine requires to either sit in Forest Meditation or get whacked (aka engage in combat), Lifesteal requires to attack (aka engage in combat). So technically, it isn't Medicine or Lifesteal that is out of whack, it might actually be Regeneration which promotes a passive, low risk and 'unskilled' Playstyle, as it has been called further upwards.
60% deflection is easy to get with just 3 people attacking the HR and Pathfinders Action Combined
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
So you are in favour of nerfing a base class feature, because a specific build used PvP is overperforming?
Well all peeps fight hr without healing dep in icewind and dont understand that in domination ALL healing for Hrs is cut in half that is 50% less from what they experiance now, that is to say the least a HUGE differance ......
Wilds Medicine - This feat is doing ridiculous healing. Compare it to similar class feats such as "GWF Unstoppable Recovery" which heals 5% HP whenever you unstoppable, or even compare this to a DC Healing Word, and it outheals both of those by ALOT...
I get Combat HRs "need" some healing mechanic to stay alive, however this combined with Aspect of the lone wolf, Alot of HRs are running more than 50% deflect. Which is giving these WM stacks very fast stack gaining as well as continuous healing.
Since this is a T3 feat, arguable it should be stronger than Unstoppable Recovery for GWFs (similar). But since its triggered off a "deflect", with no ICD even giving it 5% HP regen would make it stronger.
With no ICD however, this makes it WAY too powerful as 1 DoT would heal an HR to full HP very quickly (this is exactly like the HR pvp set on LIVE - 2.5% not respecting healing depression = 5% with HD), hence why a HoT I think IS best for the feat. So 5% over 5 seconds seems reasonable. This gives you the SAME 2.5% on LIVE post HD, however spread over 5 seconds makes it much less "bursty". 2.5% over 5 seconds seems a TAD lackluster and would be a big "nerf" from the current form so I think in the range of 6-8% over 5 seconds is more than reasonable without stacking.
Some of the "pushback" and one thing I have experienced from leveling my HR from JUST pvping is their dodge mechanic can be annoying.
- From the HR PoV it seems really weak because you dont move very far NOR have much "cc immunity frames"
- From the Opponents PoV its very frustrating fighting an HR because they constantly "dodge" encounters.
I think there is a misconception of its "value" and its not providing enough CC immunity for the HR.
Dodge Mechanic:
- Increase the RANGE of each "dodge" by about 33%. But increase the stamina consumption of each dodge by 25%. This would give the HR much more reliable "CC immunity" frames, and I think provide more balance to the class in the form of ability to avoid attacks.
Aspect of the Lone WolfThe only consideration I think here would be to provide deflect AND something else, like run speed, instead of pure deflect. Look at Bravery as an example for GWFs.
The thing about PVP is "DPS" and pure "DR" are not the way to approach PVP. PVP is all about burst ability and how much burst you can deal in a short amount of time - to counter alot of the self healing. So stacking 50+% deflect is "burst" mitigation that ALSO cannot be mitigated via debuffs or ARP. The old aspect was far too strong for the defense it gave, and I think the new deflect version is honestly almost as good.
- I think splitting the difference for +5% Defense/Deflect Base:
Rank 1: Add +1% deflect and defense for each opponent within X feet
Rank 2: Add +1% deflect defense for each....
(3 stacks max) = +6% DR/Defl max = 11% each total.
This would give a total of +7% Deflect AND DR in 1v1 scenarios and say in a 5v5 matchup, it would provide 15% Deflect and DR.and Defense
Using the appropriate Class Features, the GWF can easily reach 40% Deflection or more, in addition to the DR they have from Armor, in addition to Unstoppable/NewSprint. The HR just lost actual DR, so even deflected hits WILL hurt more.
Your '5/6/8% over 5s' Medicine Suggestions turn the feat to garbage. An effective Nerf of 52% in case of 8%/5s, 64% in case of 6%/5s, 70% in case of 5%/5s. Feat Killed. GG.
It has been proven that they can adjust powers and feats to work differently in PvE and PvP. Let them use that 'new' technology to factor it out. Maybe they should finally fix the fact that DoT effects can be deflected in the first place instead? That would also fix the 'braindead DoT user happily whacking into the HR sitting in Meditation'.
And I actually get the impression that your issue with it firing on Deflection is less with the Heal Feats, and actually with Forest Meditation. So why not have, while FM is up, each Deflection remove Medicine, and 'lock' Medicine down to 'not firing' while you are in the 'Position'?
However, if the 5/10/15% Deflect Chance on Lonewolf stays, the 'a different passive Effect' (no Deflect and certainly no DR or Lifesteal) suggestion is appropriate. Since the 5 vs. 5 example would not only make the HR Deflect a lot again - but also give back DR, which the change to Lonewolf actually wanted to get RID of.
And welcome back ayroux to the nowmore famous Nerfthehr Feedback thread for gfs and gwfs.....
I really love your suggestions like the new wolf you suggestion because lets not stop at the nerf from 20effective DR to 8.5 effective DR lets make it abit worse against 1-1 and for the sake of it if faced with more then 1 nerf it a bit more..
I mean Hr with the arsenal of anti cc and ccs to lock down some player when facing more then one they surly dont need any defence whish they have in abadundence now ..
Any more bright ideas to help trapper and archers in pvp .....
If they really want to fix wild med move it to t2 trapper that way combat ranger and archery ranger would have to sacrifice something in order to have that regen and it can still be accessible to all three paths
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I wise man has spoken -- would fix alot ....
no daly no enemy is near me
after daly no enemy is near me
And it would give the Trapper, aka the one who has CONTROL (you know, the thing basically nonexistant on Combat and Archer) the survival as a 'just pick it on the side, while ranking up anyway' Feat.
And what would the Trapper sacrifice from the 'current' Feats? Or better, what would be the replacement?
The Trapper would give up a 10% Damage bonus. For 50/25% over 15s, at 10, that seems, to ME, a poor exchange.
Imagine this: Trapper, able to keep the enemy at range or at least stop them cold as they run away. With access to the Capstone, Medicine instead of 10% Damage, and at equal gear, just 2.5% worse Deflection - when he doesn't decide to grab Fluid Hunter instead. And he can still consider grabbing the 5% Melee Stance Lifesteal.
To me, that would only change the whole issue into a different Tree. And the Archer or Combat (Which had been redesigned to not be 'Tabhammering' anymore) would have to pick a 'Tabhammering' Feat.
Maybe moving a performance-reduced Medicine to T2 Combat, and adding something else in its previous T3 spot? Since 2.5% Deflection from Fluid Hunter looks like a bad Joke.
Since a lot of suggestions from PvP HRs go towards 'Put it in Trapper', that should be just as alarming (or even more so, since Trapper has Roots and DoTs, instead of Survival and unavoidable Damage) to people like ayroux and Schweifer as my attempts to defend T3 Combat Medicine.
Schweifer: Thank you for the Screenshots. So one could say that the Issue might be made more dire by Pathfinder, not the Ranger Class overall, right?
Move WM to T2 Trapper give T3 Combat back its movement speed buff cause in all honesty i have no idea why they removed that. This way trappers have surviverability so do Archers and Combat ranger combat gets a lil more mobility. You call the trapper tree a tabhammer tree but it actually require some skill to play in PvP and every one can be happy
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Hunter Ranger: Wilds Medicine: Now has a 1 second ICD.
This will not affect PVE performance all that much during solo play but will have a fairly strong effect on PVP as it will take a minimum of 10 seconds to reach full stacks.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
How is 8% heal over 5 seconds garbage, the only thing youve said is its a nerf from the PTR. This is like the whiners who said regen would be garbage after they introduced healing depression. Well, turns out those guys were wrong and people are stacking even more regen now than before!
8% over 5 seconds - even BAD PVP HRs can get 35k HP (add in that new +4 Con belt and youll see HRs with 45k) @ 35k with healing depression HP this is the regen equiv of 840 regen ticks... I think thats MORE than fair....
I have no issue with forest meditation. Dont really care about it TBH, although that is an easy way to get all 10 stacks up at once - my change this wouldnt matter at all.
The issue with LW was that it made HRs FAR tankier than even the tank classes. I dont mind them having SOME tools or even being hard to kill, but deflect stacking I dont think is the key. In fact, my suggestion is even a buff to "DR" to the HR so you should be happy.
No thoughts on the shift change? From my limited experience playing HR in PVP I found myself frustrated alot with shift. I found it wasnt something you could use "with skill" to avoid things but merely a "chance" game in avoiding and hoping they attack during the limited CC Immune frames.
Id like to see the HR dodge give a little more "distance" AND immunity frames - thus increasing the distance by about 1/3rd (33%) would add more CC immunity and distance to "escape" while increasing its stamina cost seems fair.
Its not a punishment to make it 10 points into another tree both archer and combat would have to sacrifice something to get the skill. Weather it be dmg or life steal and sense trapper is already the higher skill cap tree cause it heavily uses the tab feature to maximise dps it be ok for that
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry, the Shift thing:
Maybe down from 6 Shifts to 4 in total, give the HR less, but longer Dodges. I would really like to be able to Dodge out of a, lets say, Dragon Boss AoE from the Middle to out of it in ONE step, instead of having to Doubledodge (Greens especially, that leave rather large Poison fields).
Also, we should await the upcoming Preview Patch and check the new change to the 'Issue' out, maybe it gets rid of some of the issues?
My 'Garbage' also refers to the 'Preview as it is now'. You see '8 over 5', and yes, compared to Live, it IS a good chunk. However, it needs be compared to a 'At full Performance, 50 over 15' Feat. So you need, in Theorycrafting, assume you have perfect 'Back to Back' activations, 3 times in a row. 24%/15s is, compared to the current Preview, horrible when in the more common 'T2 PvE gear, R6-R7 Enchants'. You are free to check up on me on Preview, if you are around like now. @handle is my forum name, I will sit in PE, in a PvE spec, and PvE gear. and yes, I am already on the 'better' end of the PvE spectrum, gear wise, but the only piece of 'PvP Gear' I have on myself is the Raven Skull.
back on HR class to also finish destroy it after destroy CW. Can you just ASK for dev to have your personnal i WIN button and stop ask to destroy any class that you don't play. because i want to remember you that those class also have solo part and thoses players are not here to satisfy you and that you want to be able to kill every one at will
Thanks a lot for NOT listening to those who want to give Medicine, which is imo the 'Core' feat of the new Combat Tree, to a Feat line which retains (and improves) on performance that Combat no longer has.
Putting myself in an HR shoes, I felt really limited with shift in its capabilities involving "pre-preemptive and re-active" timing I felt like I literally had to spam and pray with the current shift.
I like that idea, 4 total (so feated would be more) but more distance and immunity frames. I too found it annoying you couldnt escape AoE or "red" or even in PVP it takes SO long to try and "escape" sticky situations spamming 3+ Shifts. Maybe Even cutting shifts down to 4 then boosting each one about 40-50% could work really well.
Yes I wait to see what this 1 sec ICD will do to the feat, my worry on this is its not providing the HR enough "up front" survival but maybe still too much "back end" heals...
Id STILL probably rather see it heal more upfront, and less long term which would help the HR against more burst/short term damage in PVE and PVP. So I will wait to test though.
FEEDBACK
Simple math - assume we have 100% deflect so it will take 10 seconds to get 10 stacks. While first stack lasts 15 seconds with tick every 3rd second. So at top you can get full 10 stack only for 5 seconds. Really? And now lets see cap of deflection I was able to reach with AofLF and Pathfinder actions ~ 55% for 5-10 second. It means that you will need to have around 25 seconds to get 10 deflected atacks - how in this case 15 seconds of first one wM will last 25 if it lasts 15 seconds?
Is my math wrong in someway? All you did - cap it to 5-7. By what I see - there is no way you will reach 10 ever.
This is not how it works.
Each stack ticks entirely independently.
Being at 10 stacks doesn't cause each stack to heal more than having a single stack.
Also, the ICD only activates after you gain a stack, so your math of 25 seconds to reach 10 stacks is incorrect.
It is wildly variant with how dense the incoming attacks are. The more attacks incoming, the more likely you are to reach 10 stacks in 10 seconds, with a chance distribution of hitting it at any given second afterwards.
Dont forget DoTs or things like BriarTwine or GF's Guarded Assault.
Often times you can have 3-4+ things hitting you each second giving you easily more than enough chances to delf and build stacks.
Honestly I doubt youll even see THAT big a difference, id bet total effectiveness drops less than 15-20% from this.
Any person using Bile/GPF/Dots/GFs reflecting etc will all be proccing this...
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Crush, I understand that it works separately. Im saying that part
"Also, the ICD only activates after you gain a stack, so your math of 25 seconds to reach 10 stacks is incorrect."
May not allow you to get to 10 ever.
Ok. I was assuming that you have 1 atack per second. It is correct that you can get more then 1 in 1 sec.
but look. Assume you have 50% deflect chance - means that you need 2 or more attacks in 1 second to get it to 1 stack. I assume that after first stack is reached you have 1 sec ICD started. So on 2nd second you again need 2 or more attacks. And so on until you have at least 20 attacks each second to get a full stack of 10. So you will be left with only 10 full stack for 5 seconds? you can not get more since its over 10 stack.
In that 5 sec you will get only 2 ticks of regen as max = 2% of max health. But price for that is more then 30 attacks taken with 50% deflect change. Also we will see that deflect severity is ~ 50% so you basically will take 75% of damage from 30 attacks.
Im intentionally not using number of health points and so on since it may be different for char. My main idea is that reaching of 10 stack with 1 sec ICD is nearly impossible. It will require a lot of frequent attacks with a lot of small damage in timely manner. In situation where you have a lot of this - it is a combination of ticks - like many cws beams -but in pvp we have healing depression so it will be 2.5% not 5%.
for PVE - you really never have this situation.
Thanks for clarification in math. But still it is very big and questionable nerf for combat HR that just relay on Healing due to bugged/not working dodge / no cc brakers/ no good encounters.
If there was any "rearranging of trees" I'd say the Advanced Stalking feat should be moved into Trapper, swapping places with Slasher's Speed.
damage= hit damage = 1000 - for easy calc.
max HP = 30k
dc = deflection change = 50%
def = defence = 30%
ds = deflection severity = 50%
so if we have 2 hits every second we will have = (damage + (ds)*damage)*(1- def) = (1000 + 500)* 0.7 = 1050
eg 1050 damage each second. assume it will be stable for sake of theory
each 3 second of WM (tick) it will recover (30k *0.05) /5 ticks (15 sec /3 sec) = 1500/5 = + 500
ok. now lets see how it will apply to WM by every second
1. no WD
2. 1 sec of 1st WM stack
3. 2(1st) 1(2nd)
4.!3! 2 1(3rd) + 500
5. 4 !3! 2 1 + 500
6. 5 4 !3! 2 1 + 500
7. !6! 5 4 !3! 2 1 + 2x500
8. 7 !6! 5 4 !3! 2 1 + 2x500
9. 8 7 !6! 5 4 !3! 2 1 + 2x500
10.!9! 8 7 !6! 5 4 !3! 2 1 + 3x500
11.10 !9! 8 7 !6! 5 4 !3! 2 1 + 3x500 - full stack
12.11 10 !9! 8 7 !6! 5 4 !3! 2 + 3x500
13.!12! 11 10 !9! 8 7 !6! 5 4 !3! + 4x500
14.13 !12! 11 10 !9! 8 7 !6! 5 4 + 3x500
15.14 13 !12! 11 10 !9! 8 7 !6! 5 + 3x500
16.!15! 14 13 !12! 11 10 !9! 8 7 !6! + 4x500
So in total we will have 16 hit per 1050 with 33 ticks of WM over 16 sec for 500 health recover
- 16800 + 16500 = -300 health
But this is for basic idea calc where we have stable damage with 2 or more hits every second - no Crit hit nothing - this is the most ideal situation you can have - where HR will recover as much health as it looses. Real word is harder - CW with over 15k crit in one hit. GWF with 3k + damage on each swing, pve enemies dealing more then 2 atack at once - 5-8k damage.
This outline has 2 week points - small or medium damage by more then 2 sources ~ 1050 a sec is not a lot ~ every second. only in this case you can get max of WM. Now tell me how often you can see this happening?
PS I used 5% of pve not 2.5% of pvp.