Ouch. AotLW was our main DR outside of Tenacity. HRs don't have stealth or any type of CC immunity like Unstoppable or ITC. Our five "dodges" often don't work (I can't count the number of times I've dodged and still got hit by Take Down, EF, Flourish, etc.). You're going to end up with some very squishy HRs. Wilds Medicine may be our only fallback.
no this needed to happen it literally did make HR's DR ridiculous especially 1v1 contesting situations because there was never any other teammates to come clear the node gaining 25% DR for just doing nothing almost making them on par with GWF DR is a tad ridiculous.
no this needed to happen it literally did make HR's DR ridiculous especially 1v1 contesting situations because there was never any other teammates to come clear the node gaining 25% DR for just doing nothing almost making them on par with GWF DR is a tad ridiculous.
and know what are we supposed to do? pewpew from a turret?
No need to even try to boost damage. Dead DPSer doesnt dps.
no this needed to happen it literally did make HR's DR ridiculous especially 1v1 contesting situations because there was never any other teammates to come clear the node gaining 25% DR for just doing nothing almost making them on par with GWF DR is a tad ridiculous.
Ok so I summon this this as HR having almost the same DR as GWFs 1-1 is redicules but GWF having more dam both aoe and single target and more movability and better cc better anti cc better immunities is ok.. good example bro really .....
Ok so I summon this this as HR having almost the same DR as GWFs 1-1 is redicules but GWF having more dam both aoe and single target and more movability and better cc better anti cc better immunities is ok.. good example bro really .....
HR's got more damage than GWF's in PvP? Are you insane? xD. When I play my 11k GS TR 16k + GWFs hit like they are swining a cotton bud. 3-4k IBS 2k takedown. They only get dmg from their 2 dmg passives. if you dont let them stack it their dmg is much worse than GFs. HRs hit me with like 10k fox shift and 2k dmg per second thorn ward + their daily every 10 seconds, they perma control me unlike GWFs with their 2 stuns which stun for less than 2 seconds together.
I guess you mean Gwfs got more dam then HR in PvP?
As a tr you can somewhat avoid Gwfs building stack by staying in hide but with TR+and plaguefire that is not the case for HRs or other classes either(yea some extreamly skilled Cws with right ccs can do so to some extent).
Now getting hit for 2-4k from TR then 4-6 from Roar followed by 2-4 from TR then IBS for 10-15k and just for the sake of it Take down for 5-7k and another 2-4 from TR is what BIS gwfs do. And ofc roar is up again by that time so guess who is insane.
If you want to adress the changes made HR hits for even less now if melee built and no perma tr that knows what his doing will have any problem as it stands.
*Just a side note-Saying gwfs are worse then gfs isent building any credibility to your name bro not even a little.....
Man I'm just glad Archeage is coming out soon. I put 100 bucks in this game and I'm tired of getting jerked around with changes.
There's no way I'll put another cent into this game when Dev's come by with "You've been doing testing for a month, but I thought I'd drop by with another little change. We'll just eliminate most of your defensive ability. Thanks!"
Leave Constricting Arrow as it is now in Live server.
It's one of two CCs utilized by HRs that isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
We need it in order to stay alive. All other classes have a CC encounter that can keep you from attacking so why should HRs? DC is an exception, devs hate them.
If CA is to be changed then return the damage the feats did prior to the recent patch. we cant CC so we wont stay alive for very long, might as well get some damage done before dying.
We can be reached pretty easily by others in some manner. GFs lunging strike, GWF sprint or that jumping thing they do, TRs shadow jump to you, CWs well they have CC spells to get you. DC, again its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> but they have ranged attacks and one lack luster CC to hold you in place for a bit.
What does that mean? we are pretty much dead once we fire a shot unless we attack in a large group and can hide behind another, in hopes that that player is targeted by mistake and not us. <---what I will most likely start doing.
NPC enemies can target you no matter how crowded it is...those <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>!
When the first changes were made, I thought this was the mindset of the Devs, take away their ability to CC but give them damage before they die. But nope, I was so wrong.
Here's another option.
Let disrupting shot last for 1.5 - 2 seconds. at least that will give us a bit more time to try and get away from an enemy.
I show player support, by only playing Neverwinter as F2P
We want combat to feel like a high risk damage dealer who is exposed to danger but deals strong burst, which is often facilitated by strong use of the capstone feat Blade Hurricane.
Pure high risk/strong burst damage dealers don't work in PVP because the only game-mode available favors survival. That's why NO successful TRs spec/run with all offensive abilities and current CWs are low on the charts.
Listen, please. If you want to take away our tankiness, fine. But we've got to have some way to survive. We don't have any CC.
We need some kind of CC escape mechanism. I suggest making maurader's escape/rush break CC and make you CC-immune for the duration. At least in this way the HR can have a chance to survive and depend on mobility rather than bizarre things like self-healing and a "plate armor" class trait.
Pure high risk/strong burst damage dealers don't work in PVP because the only game-mode available favors survival. That's why NO successful TRs spec/run with all offensive abilities and current CWs are low on the charts.
Listen, please. If you want to take away our tankiness, fine. But we've got to have some way to survive. We don't have any CC.
We need some kind of CC escape mechanism. I suggest making maurader's escape/rush break CC and make you CC-immune for the duration. At least in this way the HR can have a chance to survive and depend on mobility rather than bizarre things like self-healing and a "plate armor" feat
If they would listen and remove contesting from the game this would go a LONG way in providing balance to all types of builds. Then it would be more of a game of who can clear nodes as a team versus who can stalemate nodes.
Your points are very valid, that because of the current PVP offered its all about survival, if the game was slayer oriented, or more like "arena" or "oddball" or heck even if they just removed contesting from pvp then it would be MUCH less an issue.
I think the nerf was probably a little TOO harsh, but we all should admit that providing HRs with EVERYTHING (high DR/Deflect/dodges/damage/control etc) was pretty OP and why its the strongest class in the game. They provided range HRs to deal INCREDIBLE damage. So to lose SOME tankiness seems only fair.
I saw some good feedback around this feat in previous comments and I think (from a non-HR players perspective) that something LIKE:
Base of 6% deflect and +2% deflect for every enemy near you (meaning 8% when 1v1ing) (up to a max of say 16% - 5 ppl near you) could be more viable.
I do agree tho that they took away control, took away tankiness, and just gave damage. Probably isnt the BEST idea.
One thing I would encourage some players in here to do is look at ALL the changes to classes instead of just posting things like "marnival" did who is comparing LIVE GWFs to PTR HRs. GWFs got their control diminished and their tankiness dimnished too.
GFs, btw, got massive group buffs, which their main encounter now SPLITS damage with you 50-50 so that 15k IBS turned into 7.5k cause your teammate GF ate half of it for you. BTW it also has 100% uptime if the GF chooses to keep it up so maybe a combat HR may need to play WITH a teammate to really excel. Just some thoughts.
TLDR:
- Nerf was too harsh.
- Look at class synergies and changes to ALL classes and dont compare to LIVE
Hunter Ranger: Aspect of the Lone Wolf: *REWORK* Gain 2% bonus deflect chance for each enemy within 15' of you. Maximum bonus 10%. Ranking this class feature up increases the radius of the effect by 5'.
I agree that this was working way above any other feat however this is a massive blow for us combat HR's in PvP, currently with GWF getting a nerf PvP wise as well this is leaving TR openly the best in 1vX fights. I can't see any other class and certainly not the new class being able to bunker caps however with perma stealth still not being changed for a TR bunker this change is making the job unique to them. I hope that the damage increase to combat HR will mean we should still be able to counter TR bunkers just as well as we currently can.
As for the change to this feat PvP wise I can't see any HR still using this, PvE wise I would think it fits on a combat AoE build rather well however I wouldn't say a 10% deflect chance sometimes being up would be at all as good as other options. Just comparing this feat to other options a HR can use I can't see it being a viable feat anymore. I would suggest putting the max up by 3% each rank increase so it can end up at 16% max making it much more viable in a PvE AoE fight to give the feat a purpose.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited July 2014
You need to rename it from Aspect of the Lone Wolf since it no longer functions most strongly when being a lone wolf, aye? The name is completely illogical for the reworked power.
You need to rename it from Aspect of the Lone Wolf since it no longer functions most strongly when being a lone wolf, aye? The name is completely illogical for the reworked power.
Depends on how you look at it. Lone Wolf could mean a solo player who gets stronger the more enemies he faces...
Even in its current form its not really a "lone wolf" idea since being near party members didnt reduce its effectiveness... It was only near enemies that it reduced effectiveness which isnt really a "lone wolf" idea either...
Again part of an issue with any feat that gives a base buff and reduces with nearby enemies is it will often make that very strong for PVP but very weak for PVE. Having something that scales the MORE are near you seems like it works better for balance issues. I wouldnt even be opposed to a NON scaling bonus here. Compare it to GWFs "Bravery" that increases deflect and run speed.
Like Crush said, if you cant survive without AotLW then something else needs to be done about the class. That was literally the strongest feat in the game.
As for the change to this feat PvP wise I can't see any HR still using this, PvE wise I would think it fits on a combat AoE build rather well
There is no meele combat aoe build in pve unless you want to do it for the fun and run with friends that will let you tag along.
Meele in pve are as it stands are not only less then terrible dps they have absolutly nothing to add to the party but maby scattering mobs when they have to run around :-).
Lone Wolf was not used in pve it was used in pvp its not a pve issue at all in whatsoever way unless you wade into mobs soloing maby.
The problem isent weather they nerf Lone Wolf the problem is that Trapper and Archery path has less then pathetic survivability now as the Constricting Arrow is gone and the healing from armor is a fraction of what is was.
Meele will be a pvp only build and frankly i dont think many will go that way as its pathetic dam with no cc and no anti cc will at best make it a poor copy of sent gwfs and node contester without the ability to kill anything but an afk green geared cw.
The only option as i see it now is go t3 archer for 20% more range dam and t3 for wild medicine if you want to be anything but a punching bag in pvp.
As the changes isent set in stone yet we can only hope that in the end they find some way of making the different path valid in both pvp and pve but i dont hold my breath.
I urge you to test these builds in preview and find out for yourself how much it effects hr class before you ask for more nerfs or join the endless qq about how good they nerfing of hrs are.
My suggestion of letting both trapper and archer keep Constricting Arrow as it is stands and with the nerf of Lone Wolf both trapper and archer need some tools to survive a cc chain because right now they dont have anything beside run like hell and hope for the best ).
My suggestion of letting both trapper and archer keep Constricting Arrow as it is stands and with the nerf of Lone Wolf both trapper and archer need some tools to survive a cc chain because right now they dont have anything beside run like hell and hope for the best ).
Apart from you know, 6 dodges. Maybe its time HRS learn't how to dodge properly rather than relying on certain other crutches?
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Apart from you know, 6 dodges. Maybe its time HRS learn't how to dodge properly rather than relying on certain other crutches?
However in comparison to the CW's shift as an example you'd have to shift 4 times to go the same distance and dodge for the same time. It's very hard to time a HR's dodge especially in PvP, often the damage can be 0.1 second before or after the dodge meaning to make it all that reliable you end up needing to use it 2-3 times when you are expecting the damage instead of just the once. If anything PvP wise shift is mainly to cancel powers so you don't self root yourself and so you can move pretty fast while in combat.
You need to rename it from Aspect of the Lone Wolf since it no longer functions most strongly when being a lone wolf, aye? The name is completely illogical for the reworked power.
However in comparison to the CW's shift as an example you'd have to shift 4 times to go the same distance and dodge for the same time. It's very hard to time a HR's dodge especially in PvP, often the damage can be 0.1 second before or after the dodge meaning to make it all that reliable you end up needing to use it 2-3 times when you are expecting the damage instead of just the once. If anything PvP wise shift is mainly to cancel powers so you don't self root yourself and so you can move pretty fast while in combat.
I disagree, HRS such as Nightmare from Chocolate stand, Tear D'ropp from 7k Gear Score, Sandstorm from 7k Gear score, Ryuk from Disrespect (Previously Enemy team - I also haven't seen him on in awhile) and many other HRS that I have seen know how to time their dodges properly. Nightmare is especially good at it. In my opinion a HR who knows how to dodge effectively is 10x worse to deal with than Constricting.
Please note, I am not crying about the fact Hrs have 6 dodges, I think the fact that they do brings something unique to the class and the game. However, stating that Hrs no longer have the tools to survive is just flat out wrong.
I know how the dodge system works, there is also an inbuilt period with the dodge that factors in Lag and other details.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Apart from you know, 6 dodges. Maybe its time HRS learn't how to dodge properly rather than relying on certain other crutches?
Its 5 but ok it all looks good on paper but the dodges dont work like cws dodge or trs dodge its way shorter and dont give immunity the same way its somewhat bugged (been so since start).
Now once you get cced from range by a cw that you dont see dodges arent of much use and with no anti cc and after all nerfs very little survivability they sure wont keep you alive for long.
But its getting tiresome to explaining basic facts to peeps who are refusing to see the hole picture and always focus in on a single skill/feat/power/ability. Now that they nerfed about everthing that kept Hrs alive lets remove the dodges and make it a sprint with 30% resist buff just like warlocks and let the rangers run into the forrest, hugs some trees and dance with the rabbits.........
Its 5 but ok it all looks good on paper but the dodges dont work like cws dodge or trs dodge its way shorter and dont give immunity the same way its somewhat bugged (been so since start).
Now once you get cced from range by a cw that you dont see dodges arent of much use and with no anti cc and after all nerfs very little survivability they sure wont keep you alive for long.
But its getting tiresome to explaining basic facts to peeps who are refusing to see the hole picture and always focus in on a single skill/feat/power/ability. Now that they nerfed about everthing that kept Hrs alive lets remove the dodges and make it a sprint with 30% resist buff just like warlocks and let the rangers run into the forrest, hugs some trees and dance with the rabbits.........
Are you <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? If not, Are you sure? Have you been tested?
Read my post above yours.
There is only one (1), Uno, skill that completely Negates a Dodge. And that is Icy Rays. And it is part of the core design of the skill. Icy Rays doesnt last over 1.5 seconds in Pvp. So the CW better be on point with casting their additional CC to CC the ranger. Currently on live it is possible to precast Shard, use Rays and then prone the HR and start a CC chain.
Also, currently on live, it is possible for a Cw to initiate Entangling force in a mid HR dodge and catch the HR once the dodge animation finishes. This is only possible due to the time delay in casting EF (Read as activation time) and the slight delay between HR dodges. There is a very tiny window that can be capitalised on. Mind you, this happens very rarely.
You do realise that all the CW CC powers are getting activation time increases with Mod 4 right? This means the Cw needs to stand still longer to cast those CC powers. Not only that, but the damage has been lowered accross the board, both base and via feats.
The reason the HR dodge is shorter is because you get more of them. Please don't try and discount that fact.
But its getting tiresome to explaining basic facts to peeps who are refusing to see the hole picture and always focus in on a single skill/feat/power/ability. Now that they nerfed about everthing that kept Hrs alive lets remove the dodges and make it a sprint with 30% resist buff just like warlocks and let the rangers run into the forrest, hugs some trees and dance with the rabbits.........
Let me highlight this part for you again. - I play all the classes on Live except for TR, DC and GF. The problem the vast majority of the playerbase has with this mod is that they are not looking at the way the meta is going to change as a whole. Every class is getting reworked except for TRS. The current PVP meta will be thrown out of the window as soon as these changes hit live. Prones are going to be rarer, Cws won't hit as hard. AP gain builds from GFs, Perma Sprint options on GWFS.
You don't see me sitting here crying about how my CWs damage has been blown out of the water (And mind you I only play pvp). I don't want to play a supportive controller. I want to play a Wizard that blows **** up with fireballs and spells that shoot from my hands.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Its 5 but ok it all looks good on paper but the dodges dont work like cws dodge or trs dodge its way shorter and dont give immunity the same way its somewhat bugged (been so since start).
Now once you get cced from range by a cw that you dont see dodges arent of much use and with no anti cc and after all nerfs very little survivability they sure wont keep you alive for long.
But its getting tiresome to explaining basic facts to peeps who are refusing to see the hole picture and always focus in on a single skill/feat/power/ability. Now that they nerfed about everthing that kept Hrs alive lets remove the dodges and make it a sprint with 30% resist buff just like warlocks and let the rangers run into the Forrest, hugs some trees and dance with the rabbits.........
5 base, but with you grab feats/boons and even artifacts that boost stam gain, you can actually get ALOT more than 6 in a row. I thought there was also a broken skill that granted some stamina regen or something. I forget how it worked but I have seen a HR in ToB not being attacked by anyone NOR stopping to attack use his dodges 16 times in a row back to back. He did put up thorn ward though, so maybe it was a proc from an attack. Regardless.
I have posted before, I think the rework was a little harsh, but as xtraordinary has said, its not like you dont have survival mechanics STILL. Also as Crush said, if you cant survive without it, there are other problems. BTW something to note, xtraordinary is pretty modest because he does and has been playing HR for a very long time, he was actually the first HR to hit 60 in the game - for what thats worth. Just for some perspective from a long time HR player.
5 base, but with you grab feats/boons and even artifacts that boost stam gain, you can actually get ALOT more than 6 in a row. I thought there was also a broken skill that granted some stamina regen or something. I forget how it worked but I have seen a HR in ToB not being attacked by anyone NOR stopping to attack use his dodges 16 times in a row back to back. He did put up thorn ward though, so maybe it was a proc from an attack. Regardless.
I have posted before, I think the rework was a little harsh, but as xtraordinary has said, its not like you dont have survival mechanics STILL. Also as Crush said, if you cant survive without it, there are other problems. BTW something to note, xtraordinary is pretty modest because he does and has been playing HR for a very long time, he was actually the first HR to hit 60 in the game - for what thats worth. Just for some perspective from a long time HR player.
Hunter's mark gives you stamina when you damage someone with the mark. It's a 100% daily though and pretty gimicky. That's the only way you get 16 dodges.
Even if dodge was reliable (it's not, something with the timing because it's so short makes it bug out if you try to skillfully dodge something), it's like saying CW has great defense because they have dodges.
They don't, but at least they have a boatload of CC (more to come in mod4). We don't even have that.
"Also as Crush said, if you cant survive without it, there are other problems."
There are other problems. The problems are we have no CC, no CC escape, no CC-invulnerability outside of dodge, and no meaningful burst (because we have 6 encounters, the damage on them is naturally lower than encounters from other classes).
We've made up for all this with a ridiculously overpowered bugged PVP set and an OP trait (Lone Wolf), but those are both band-aids to the problem, and the band-aids are getting ripped off in mod4.
HR at it's core is a basically defenseless, squishy class with no burst and no CC.
Unfortunately, it's tons of fun to play. They really got the gameplay right for a melee/range hybrid. Otherwise I'd just drop the class and probably the game and call it a day.
They don't, but at least they have a boatload of CC (more to come in mod4). We don't even have that.
"Also as Crush said, if you cant survive without it, there are other problems."
There are other problems. The problems are we have no CC, no CC escape, no CC-invulnerability outside of dodge, and no meaningful burst.
Re the above:
I would rather have Damage over CC. My Cw may be about to get buffed with CC but this doesn't mean I will be able to kill anyone. All that CC means nothing when 4 Classes have CC immune Abilities: TR - ITC, GF - Raise Shield, GWF + Warlock - Sprint.
In regards to the other problems: You do have CC, its called Roots. They work, its still technically a CC - Ever Rooted a CW down whilst your GWF buddy runs up and unloads on them? Trust me, having been on the receiving end of this combination I fear a HR that knows how to use the Root system much more than I fear Constricting.
No CC escape? Only Rogues will have this now in Mod 4. GWFS lose it from Unstoppable and sprinting whilst CC'd will not grant immunity.
No CC-invulnerability? You have Foxes, Which makes you CC immune whilst you use the encounter. Gimmicky yes, but at least you have it.
No Meaningful burst? Archery has been buffed something chronic base accross the board. You will have burst. Just your current encounter set up will need to change to reflect that.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
5 base, but with you grab feats/boons and even artifacts that boost stam gain, you can actually get ALOT more than 6 in a row. I thought there was also a broken skill that granted some stamina regen or something. I forget how it worked but I have seen a HR in ToB not being attacked by anyone NOR stopping to attack use his dodges 16 times in a row back to back. He did put up thorn ward though, so maybe it was a proc from an attack. Regardless.
I have posted before, I think the rework was a little harsh, but as xtraordinary has said, its not like you dont have survival mechanics STILL. Also as Crush said, if you cant survive without it, there are other problems. BTW something to note, xtraordinary is pretty modest because he does and has been playing HR for a very long time, he was actually the first HR to hit 60 in the game - for what thats worth. Just for some perspective from a long time HR player.
16 times? Vid or it didn't happen. Anyway, I've been hit and CC'd while Shifting countless times in PvP. It's the weakest dodge of all the classes, despite being the most spammable.
Yes, there are other problems with the class; I'd happily have AotLW reworked, but something else needs to be buffed to compensate in part, given that the PvP set bug is resolved (cool) and only Combat has anything to make up for it (nerfed Wilds Medicine, doubly not cool).
I'd guess that the Devs consider the HR's range and mobility *enough* to compare with Stealth (max damage avoidance there) or CC Immunity moves, but it doesn't. And its DPS isn't good enough to compensate for that disparity, let alone match the massive burst a GWF and TR can throw out. So having an imbalanced Survivability Gear & Feature was what matched the classes (and for the very elite let them excel). Getting rid of that is TOTES COOL, but something else needs to be buffed to a reasonable level to make up for that vanishing act and keep them on an even keel.
And that's just the PvP discussion, there's plenty of issues still on the PvE side.
I would rather have Damage over CC. My Cw may be about to get buffed with CC but this doesn't mean I will be able to kill anyone. All that CC means nothing when 4 Classes have CC immune Abilities: TR - ITC, GF - Raise Shield, GWF + Warlock - Sprint.
CC can be used defensively though. HR without constricting arrow has nothing to stall an oncoming opponent. The fact that CWs will be able to perma-freeze people is definitely a boon to their defense.
If you're right about GWF not having a CC-break (I don't think you are, I haven't seen that change), then the only one they couldn't stop is a TR.
As for roots, well, we won't even have those. Roots have been changed from the rubberbandy/long-lasting root to a short-duration in-place root.
And if you care more about being rooted as CW than constricting arrow, which has the special benefit of bugging out shard, then I don't know what to say. Sometimes I'll experiment without it but if there's any CWs, I have to put it back on because it's the only way to deal with them.
CC can be used defensively though. HR without constricting arrow has nothing to stall an oncoming opponent. The fact that CWs will be able to perma-freeze people is definitely a boon to their defense.
If you're right about GWF not having a CC-break (I don't think you are, I haven't seen that change), then the only one they couldn't stop is a TR.
As for roots, well, we won't even have those. Roots have been changed from the rubberbandy/long-lasting root to a short-duration in-place root.
And if you care more about being rooted as CW than constricting arrow, which has the special benefit of bugging out shard, then I don't know what to say. Sometimes I'll experiment without it but if there's any CWs, I have to put it back on because it's the only way to deal with them.
Gwf CC immunity has been removed from unstoppable and placed onto sprint as well. AFAIK.
Honestly, Constricting was never a big issue for me on my CW. Sometimes its frustrating, especially when I am playing with Shard, but if I know I need to rotate to the HR, Im not going alone, and usually I can utilise shard before I have CA applied to me, its dodged, or I swap out to RoE on Tab for the double Debuff and Dots and we light the HR up on the node. (This is purely from competitive pm vs pm gameplay though - For pug matches Ill usually just stick with Shard, or swap out encounters to suit depending on what I am playing agains't).
The reason I hate and fear the roots more than CA, is that it essentially prevents me from moving. No movement = standing still. It counteracts the dodge mechanic completely. You can still use the dodge, however the distance created by using the dodge is lost.
Everytime I have been rooted by a HR in competitive Pvp gameplay, I have been focused down and died. And there was nothing I could do about it.
Honestly, Smart Cws will either dodge the initial CA application (Which you as a HR should be using Disruptive shot first, followed by CA to prevet - Pro tip), or will dodge one of the timed delay applications of CA. If you managed to land CA and they dodge the timed application. Its highly likely that they run out of dodges to dodge Fox Shift. Another win in your book. As I said above, usually when I get matched against a HR by myself I switch out to RoE on tab and blow them up with no issues.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
I forget how it worked but I have seen a HR in ToB not being attacked by anyone NOR stopping to attack use his dodges 16 times in a row back to back.
Ayroux you are a good advocate for gwf class and i have respected you for putting in so much time and effort testing and trying but enough is enough.
You have become so bias in your argumentation that you lost all objectivity and nowmore just use about any argument you can come up with to further the gwf class and defend the nerfs of other classes(maby just maby not the gfs).
You take sentence out of context, you twist the meaning of what is written, you make up example that is so far out its redicules to further your argumentation (like 16 dodges SIXTEEN DODGES IN S ROW man how far will you go).
The way you argue for gwfs class to avoid the nerf bat and at the same time advocating for every single nerf and then some for the HR class make it very very clear you play gwf and not HR and that your oppinion is nothing about balance but just to keep gwf OP toward other classes.
You have become one of those that makes alot of noice but no sence - a troll.
Ayroux you are a good advocate for gwf class and i have respected you for putting in so much time and effort testing and trying but enough is enough.
You have become so bias in your argumentation that you lost all objectivity and nowmore just use about any argument you can come up with to further the gwf class and defend the nerfs of other classes(maby just maby not the gfs).
You take sentence out of context, you twist the meaning of what is written, you make up example that is so far out its redicules to further your argumentation (like 16 dodges SIXTEEN DODGES IN S ROW man how far will you go).
The way you argue for gwfs class to avoid the nerf bat and at the same time advocating for every single nerf and then some for the HR class make it very very clear you play gwf and not HR and that your oppinion is nothing about balance but just to keep gwf OP toward other classes.
You have become one of those that makes alot of noice but no sence - a troll.
Actually he looks at game balance in PvP as a whole rather than just one class. Honestly, I think he is more excited to play his GF than his GWF. Mind you his GF was his first character ever and he was beastmode on it. Lets put this back on topic and keep the personal attacks out of it.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
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Actually he looks at game balance in PvP as a whole rather than just one class.
Go through his argumentation in gwf section and in other classes threads and read them and then if you still come to the conclution that he is neutral in his oppinions and that he argue as strongly for other classes as for gwfs well then you got a reading dissability am sorry to say :-).
As i said i used to respect his oppinion but there is no objectivity any more and that makes him a troll imho.
I will voice my dislike for the constricting Nerf in pvp when things like CW will choke me CoI then ICE knife ME A constricting shots chain of stuns can allow me to re-position. If constricting is just gonna root then there nothing stopping them for blowing me up while rooted and Lone wolf giving less mitigation is not helping
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vsandddMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited July 2014
Could we get something to make up for the Aspect of the Lone Wolf nerf? Maybe give us 75% deflect severity like the Trickster Rogue has? We need something to compensate like you did with our set bonus; you added wild's medicine to the combat tree.
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no this needed to happen it literally did make HR's DR ridiculous especially 1v1 contesting situations because there was never any other teammates to come clear the node gaining 25% DR for just doing nothing almost making them on par with GWF DR is a tad ridiculous.
and know what are we supposed to do? pewpew from a turret?
No need to even try to boost damage. Dead DPSer doesnt dps.
HR's got more damage than GWF's in PvP? Are you insane? xD. When I play my 11k GS TR 16k + GWFs hit like they are swining a cotton bud. 3-4k IBS 2k takedown. They only get dmg from their 2 dmg passives. if you dont let them stack it their dmg is much worse than GFs. HRs hit me with like 10k fox shift and 2k dmg per second thorn ward + their daily every 10 seconds, they perma control me unlike GWFs with their 2 stuns which stun for less than 2 seconds together.
I guess you mean Gwfs got more dam then HR in PvP?
As a tr you can somewhat avoid Gwfs building stack by staying in hide but with TR+and plaguefire that is not the case for HRs or other classes either(yea some extreamly skilled Cws with right ccs can do so to some extent).
Now getting hit for 2-4k from TR then 4-6 from Roar followed by 2-4 from TR then IBS for 10-15k and just for the sake of it Take down for 5-7k and another 2-4 from TR is what BIS gwfs do. And ofc roar is up again by that time so guess who is insane.
If you want to adress the changes made HR hits for even less now if melee built and no perma tr that knows what his doing will have any problem as it stands.
*Just a side note-Saying gwfs are worse then gfs isent building any credibility to your name bro not even a little.....
There's no way I'll put another cent into this game when Dev's come by with "You've been doing testing for a month, but I thought I'd drop by with another little change. We'll just eliminate most of your defensive ability. Thanks!"
It's one of two CCs utilized by HRs that isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
We need it in order to stay alive. All other classes have a CC encounter that can keep you from attacking so why should HRs? DC is an exception, devs hate them.
If CA is to be changed then return the damage the feats did prior to the recent patch. we cant CC so we wont stay alive for very long, might as well get some damage done before dying.
We can be reached pretty easily by others in some manner. GFs lunging strike, GWF sprint or that jumping thing they do, TRs shadow jump to you, CWs well they have CC spells to get you. DC, again its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> but they have ranged attacks and one lack luster CC to hold you in place for a bit.
What does that mean? we are pretty much dead once we fire a shot unless we attack in a large group and can hide behind another, in hopes that that player is targeted by mistake and not us. <---what I will most likely start doing.
NPC enemies can target you no matter how crowded it is...those <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>!
When the first changes were made, I thought this was the mindset of the Devs, take away their ability to CC but give them damage before they die. But nope, I was so wrong.
Here's another option.
Let disrupting shot last for 1.5 - 2 seconds. at least that will give us a bit more time to try and get away from an enemy.
Pure high risk/strong burst damage dealers don't work in PVP because the only game-mode available favors survival. That's why NO successful TRs spec/run with all offensive abilities and current CWs are low on the charts.
Listen, please. If you want to take away our tankiness, fine. But we've got to have some way to survive. We don't have any CC.
We need some kind of CC escape mechanism. I suggest making maurader's escape/rush break CC and make you CC-immune for the duration. At least in this way the HR can have a chance to survive and depend on mobility rather than bizarre things like self-healing and a "plate armor" class trait.
If they would listen and remove contesting from the game this would go a LONG way in providing balance to all types of builds. Then it would be more of a game of who can clear nodes as a team versus who can stalemate nodes.
Your points are very valid, that because of the current PVP offered its all about survival, if the game was slayer oriented, or more like "arena" or "oddball" or heck even if they just removed contesting from pvp then it would be MUCH less an issue.
I think the nerf was probably a little TOO harsh, but we all should admit that providing HRs with EVERYTHING (high DR/Deflect/dodges/damage/control etc) was pretty OP and why its the strongest class in the game. They provided range HRs to deal INCREDIBLE damage. So to lose SOME tankiness seems only fair.
I saw some good feedback around this feat in previous comments and I think (from a non-HR players perspective) that something LIKE:
Base of 6% deflect and +2% deflect for every enemy near you (meaning 8% when 1v1ing) (up to a max of say 16% - 5 ppl near you) could be more viable.
I do agree tho that they took away control, took away tankiness, and just gave damage. Probably isnt the BEST idea.
One thing I would encourage some players in here to do is look at ALL the changes to classes instead of just posting things like "marnival" did who is comparing LIVE GWFs to PTR HRs. GWFs got their control diminished and their tankiness dimnished too.
GFs, btw, got massive group buffs, which their main encounter now SPLITS damage with you 50-50 so that 15k IBS turned into 7.5k cause your teammate GF ate half of it for you. BTW it also has 100% uptime if the GF chooses to keep it up so maybe a combat HR may need to play WITH a teammate to really excel. Just some thoughts.
TLDR:
- Nerf was too harsh.
- Look at class synergies and changes to ALL classes and dont compare to LIVE
I agree that this was working way above any other feat however this is a massive blow for us combat HR's in PvP, currently with GWF getting a nerf PvP wise as well this is leaving TR openly the best in 1vX fights. I can't see any other class and certainly not the new class being able to bunker caps however with perma stealth still not being changed for a TR bunker this change is making the job unique to them. I hope that the damage increase to combat HR will mean we should still be able to counter TR bunkers just as well as we currently can.
As for the change to this feat PvP wise I can't see any HR still using this, PvE wise I would think it fits on a combat AoE build rather well however I wouldn't say a 10% deflect chance sometimes being up would be at all as good as other options. Just comparing this feat to other options a HR can use I can't see it being a viable feat anymore. I would suggest putting the max up by 3% each rank increase so it can end up at 16% max making it much more viable in a PvE AoE fight to give the feat a purpose.
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Depends on how you look at it. Lone Wolf could mean a solo player who gets stronger the more enemies he faces...
Even in its current form its not really a "lone wolf" idea since being near party members didnt reduce its effectiveness... It was only near enemies that it reduced effectiveness which isnt really a "lone wolf" idea either...
Again part of an issue with any feat that gives a base buff and reduces with nearby enemies is it will often make that very strong for PVP but very weak for PVE. Having something that scales the MORE are near you seems like it works better for balance issues. I wouldnt even be opposed to a NON scaling bonus here. Compare it to GWFs "Bravery" that increases deflect and run speed.
Like Crush said, if you cant survive without AotLW then something else needs to be done about the class. That was literally the strongest feat in the game.
Meele in pve are as it stands are not only less then terrible dps they have absolutly nothing to add to the party but maby scattering mobs when they have to run around :-).
Lone Wolf was not used in pve it was used in pvp its not a pve issue at all in whatsoever way unless you wade into mobs soloing maby.
The problem isent weather they nerf Lone Wolf the problem is that Trapper and Archery path has less then pathetic survivability now as the Constricting Arrow is gone and the healing from armor is a fraction of what is was.
Meele will be a pvp only build and frankly i dont think many will go that way as its pathetic dam with no cc and no anti cc will at best make it a poor copy of sent gwfs and node contester without the ability to kill anything but an afk green geared cw.
The only option as i see it now is go t3 archer for 20% more range dam and t3 for wild medicine if you want to be anything but a punching bag in pvp.
As the changes isent set in stone yet we can only hope that in the end they find some way of making the different path valid in both pvp and pve but i dont hold my breath.
I urge you to test these builds in preview and find out for yourself how much it effects hr class before you ask for more nerfs or join the endless qq about how good they nerfing of hrs are.
My suggestion of letting both trapper and archer keep Constricting Arrow as it is stands and with the nerf of Lone Wolf both trapper and archer need some tools to survive a cc chain because right now they dont have anything beside run like hell and hope for the best ).
Apart from you know, 6 dodges. Maybe its time HRS learn't how to dodge properly rather than relying on certain other crutches?
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However in comparison to the CW's shift as an example you'd have to shift 4 times to go the same distance and dodge for the same time. It's very hard to time a HR's dodge especially in PvP, often the damage can be 0.1 second before or after the dodge meaning to make it all that reliable you end up needing to use it 2-3 times when you are expecting the damage instead of just the once. If anything PvP wise shift is mainly to cancel powers so you don't self root yourself and so you can move pretty fast while in combat.
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I disagree, HRS such as Nightmare from Chocolate stand, Tear D'ropp from 7k Gear Score, Sandstorm from 7k Gear score, Ryuk from Disrespect (Previously Enemy team - I also haven't seen him on in awhile) and many other HRS that I have seen know how to time their dodges properly. Nightmare is especially good at it. In my opinion a HR who knows how to dodge effectively is 10x worse to deal with than Constricting.
Please note, I am not crying about the fact Hrs have 6 dodges, I think the fact that they do brings something unique to the class and the game. However, stating that Hrs no longer have the tools to survive is just flat out wrong.
I know how the dodge system works, there is also an inbuilt period with the dodge that factors in Lag and other details.
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Its 5 but ok it all looks good on paper but the dodges dont work like cws dodge or trs dodge its way shorter and dont give immunity the same way its somewhat bugged (been so since start).
Now once you get cced from range by a cw that you dont see dodges arent of much use and with no anti cc and after all nerfs very little survivability they sure wont keep you alive for long.
But its getting tiresome to explaining basic facts to peeps who are refusing to see the hole picture and always focus in on a single skill/feat/power/ability. Now that they nerfed about everthing that kept Hrs alive lets remove the dodges and make it a sprint with 30% resist buff just like warlocks and let the rangers run into the forrest, hugs some trees and dance with the rabbits.........
Are you <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? If not, Are you sure? Have you been tested?
Read my post above yours.
There is only one (1), Uno, skill that completely Negates a Dodge. And that is Icy Rays. And it is part of the core design of the skill. Icy Rays doesnt last over 1.5 seconds in Pvp. So the CW better be on point with casting their additional CC to CC the ranger. Currently on live it is possible to precast Shard, use Rays and then prone the HR and start a CC chain.
Also, currently on live, it is possible for a Cw to initiate Entangling force in a mid HR dodge and catch the HR once the dodge animation finishes. This is only possible due to the time delay in casting EF (Read as activation time) and the slight delay between HR dodges. There is a very tiny window that can be capitalised on. Mind you, this happens very rarely.
You do realise that all the CW CC powers are getting activation time increases with Mod 4 right? This means the Cw needs to stand still longer to cast those CC powers. Not only that, but the damage has been lowered accross the board, both base and via feats.
The reason the HR dodge is shorter is because you get more of them. Please don't try and discount that fact.
Let me highlight this part for you again. - I play all the classes on Live except for TR, DC and GF. The problem the vast majority of the playerbase has with this mod is that they are not looking at the way the meta is going to change as a whole. Every class is getting reworked except for TRS. The current PVP meta will be thrown out of the window as soon as these changes hit live. Prones are going to be rarer, Cws won't hit as hard. AP gain builds from GFs, Perma Sprint options on GWFS.
You don't see me sitting here crying about how my CWs damage has been blown out of the water (And mind you I only play pvp). I don't want to play a supportive controller. I want to play a Wizard that blows **** up with fireballs and spells that shoot from my hands.
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5 base, but with you grab feats/boons and even artifacts that boost stam gain, you can actually get ALOT more than 6 in a row. I thought there was also a broken skill that granted some stamina regen or something. I forget how it worked but I have seen a HR in ToB not being attacked by anyone NOR stopping to attack use his dodges 16 times in a row back to back. He did put up thorn ward though, so maybe it was a proc from an attack. Regardless.
I have posted before, I think the rework was a little harsh, but as xtraordinary has said, its not like you dont have survival mechanics STILL. Also as Crush said, if you cant survive without it, there are other problems. BTW something to note, xtraordinary is pretty modest because he does and has been playing HR for a very long time, he was actually the first HR to hit 60 in the game - for what thats worth. Just for some perspective from a long time HR player.
Hunter's mark gives you stamina when you damage someone with the mark. It's a 100% daily though and pretty gimicky. That's the only way you get 16 dodges.
Even if dodge was reliable (it's not, something with the timing because it's so short makes it bug out if you try to skillfully dodge something), it's like saying CW has great defense because they have dodges.
They don't, but at least they have a boatload of CC (more to come in mod4). We don't even have that.
"Also as Crush said, if you cant survive without it, there are other problems."
There are other problems. The problems are we have no CC, no CC escape, no CC-invulnerability outside of dodge, and no meaningful burst (because we have 6 encounters, the damage on them is naturally lower than encounters from other classes).
We've made up for all this with a ridiculously overpowered bugged PVP set and an OP trait (Lone Wolf), but those are both band-aids to the problem, and the band-aids are getting ripped off in mod4.
HR at it's core is a basically defenseless, squishy class with no burst and no CC.
Unfortunately, it's tons of fun to play. They really got the gameplay right for a melee/range hybrid. Otherwise I'd just drop the class and probably the game and call it a day.
Re the above:
I would rather have Damage over CC. My Cw may be about to get buffed with CC but this doesn't mean I will be able to kill anyone. All that CC means nothing when 4 Classes have CC immune Abilities: TR - ITC, GF - Raise Shield, GWF + Warlock - Sprint.
In regards to the other problems: You do have CC, its called Roots. They work, its still technically a CC - Ever Rooted a CW down whilst your GWF buddy runs up and unloads on them? Trust me, having been on the receiving end of this combination I fear a HR that knows how to use the Root system much more than I fear Constricting.
No CC escape? Only Rogues will have this now in Mod 4. GWFS lose it from Unstoppable and sprinting whilst CC'd will not grant immunity.
No CC-invulnerability? You have Foxes, Which makes you CC immune whilst you use the encounter. Gimmicky yes, but at least you have it.
No Meaningful burst? Archery has been buffed something chronic base accross the board. You will have burst. Just your current encounter set up will need to change to reflect that.
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16 times? Vid or it didn't happen. Anyway, I've been hit and CC'd while Shifting countless times in PvP. It's the weakest dodge of all the classes, despite being the most spammable.
Yes, there are other problems with the class; I'd happily have AotLW reworked, but something else needs to be buffed to compensate in part, given that the PvP set bug is resolved (cool) and only Combat has anything to make up for it (nerfed Wilds Medicine, doubly not cool).
I'd guess that the Devs consider the HR's range and mobility *enough* to compare with Stealth (max damage avoidance there) or CC Immunity moves, but it doesn't. And its DPS isn't good enough to compensate for that disparity, let alone match the massive burst a GWF and TR can throw out. So having an imbalanced Survivability Gear & Feature was what matched the classes (and for the very elite let them excel). Getting rid of that is TOTES COOL, but something else needs to be buffed to a reasonable level to make up for that vanishing act and keep them on an even keel.
And that's just the PvP discussion, there's plenty of issues still on the PvE side.
CC can be used defensively though. HR without constricting arrow has nothing to stall an oncoming opponent. The fact that CWs will be able to perma-freeze people is definitely a boon to their defense.
If you're right about GWF not having a CC-break (I don't think you are, I haven't seen that change), then the only one they couldn't stop is a TR.
As for roots, well, we won't even have those. Roots have been changed from the rubberbandy/long-lasting root to a short-duration in-place root.
And if you care more about being rooted as CW than constricting arrow, which has the special benefit of bugging out shard, then I don't know what to say. Sometimes I'll experiment without it but if there's any CWs, I have to put it back on because it's the only way to deal with them.
Gwf CC immunity has been removed from unstoppable and placed onto sprint as well. AFAIK.
Honestly, Constricting was never a big issue for me on my CW. Sometimes its frustrating, especially when I am playing with Shard, but if I know I need to rotate to the HR, Im not going alone, and usually I can utilise shard before I have CA applied to me, its dodged, or I swap out to RoE on Tab for the double Debuff and Dots and we light the HR up on the node. (This is purely from competitive pm vs pm gameplay though - For pug matches Ill usually just stick with Shard, or swap out encounters to suit depending on what I am playing agains't).
The reason I hate and fear the roots more than CA, is that it essentially prevents me from moving. No movement = standing still. It counteracts the dodge mechanic completely. You can still use the dodge, however the distance created by using the dodge is lost.
Everytime I have been rooted by a HR in competitive Pvp gameplay, I have been focused down and died. And there was nothing I could do about it.
Honestly, Smart Cws will either dodge the initial CA application (Which you as a HR should be using Disruptive shot first, followed by CA to prevet - Pro tip), or will dodge one of the timed delay applications of CA. If you managed to land CA and they dodge the timed application. Its highly likely that they run out of dodges to dodge Fox Shift. Another win in your book. As I said above, usually when I get matched against a HR by myself I switch out to RoE on tab and blow them up with no issues.
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Ayroux you are a good advocate for gwf class and i have respected you for putting in so much time and effort testing and trying but enough is enough.
You have become so bias in your argumentation that you lost all objectivity and nowmore just use about any argument you can come up with to further the gwf class and defend the nerfs of other classes(maby just maby not the gfs).
You take sentence out of context, you twist the meaning of what is written, you make up example that is so far out its redicules to further your argumentation (like 16 dodges SIXTEEN DODGES IN S ROW man how far will you go).
The way you argue for gwfs class to avoid the nerf bat and at the same time advocating for every single nerf and then some for the HR class make it very very clear you play gwf and not HR and that your oppinion is nothing about balance but just to keep gwf OP toward other classes.
You have become one of those that makes alot of noice but no sence - a troll.
Actually he looks at game balance in PvP as a whole rather than just one class. Honestly, I think he is more excited to play his GF than his GWF. Mind you his GF was his first character ever and he was beastmode on it. Lets put this back on topic and keep the personal attacks out of it.
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As i said i used to respect his oppinion but there is no objectivity any more and that makes him a troll imho.
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