Dude, what is with you and hating on sabo TR's so much? Seriously, you need to get that checked out!
Because it is inexcusably broken even considering the fact that I'm a TR main? :rolleyes: Sabo was pretty OP in mod5, but its outdone itself in mod6. It is now the sole-surviving "OP" TR build in the game that tops everything else, and its also the absolutely most broken horse-shi* in the history of all TR builds.
Mod2 semi-perma DF rotations were pretty OP in those days but it at least took some amount of skill, as well as required balls to always remain in close vicinity to land DF. Mod6 Sabos... skill? Who needs skill? Auto-procs do everything for you. You don't need no experience and careful rotation management. Auto-stealth feats like OWTS already does that for you .
Mod6 Sabos are nothing but essentially dumbed-down permastealth made so easy that any idiot can play it so long as he gets certain gear. It's that much broken.
Finally a much need fix to a broken class, you can't tank better than any class in the game and on top of the hit hard enough to kill 1vs1, you tank or you dps, or little of both, you don't get overpowered tanking and a one shot daily, with a 100% uptime ... not to mention the team buffs that basically make people besides you almost as hard to kill as you .
This change sucks!!! I'm having trouble enough completing dailies in Sharandar and DR with my Devotion Paladin. Now, its just gonna take me 2-minutes longer to clear each 4-pack mobs... not to mention I cant complete most of the dailies in IWD.. geez
I wish they had just split this power for PvP. It really just got a lot harder to solo content on paladin. Not because you die, but because everything takes ages to do...
Think this is more of a hit to Devotion than Protection. At least as a Justice Protector I actually don't use DJ that much in Sharandar and Dread Ring. They do need to compensate somehow for lost ST DPS though - maybe a small buff to At-Wills or a larger buff to Smite.
Go find where Crush introduced the paladin.... It is an off-tank and an off-healer.. GF is supposed to be the tank. and DC the healer. yet DC heals less than a healing pally, and GF tanks 100x less than the protection spec
From Crush's opening post on the Official OP Feedback thread on Preview:
Today we are excited to unveil some more details about our next class, the Oathbound Paladin. Oathbound Paladins can become either tanks or healers using their Paragon Paths, which allow them to take either an Oath of Protection or an Oath of Devotion. These paths confer unique passives in addition to their own powers, as well as modifying all encounter powers the Paladin has.
I highlighted the relevant part.
And if you still think that OPs are 'off' anything, what do you consider to be their primary role?
And if you still think that OPs are 'off' anything, what do you consider to be their primary role?
twi, without dragging in "lore and concept" into discussions concerning balance based on actual performance, then in its entirety the OPal is a classic example of a hybrid class. The very classic -- and still relevant -- rule of thumb concerning hybrid classes, is that its hybrid nature allows them multi-purpose utilities/roles which would normally require two or more separate classes to fulfill.
Thus, it's efficiency in combat is destined to be incomparably higher than normal single purpose roles, unless limits and inhibitions are slapped onto it. Hence, to offset this great advantage over others, its efficiency in individual areas of those multiple roles can never surpass those of the classes that take on that role within the game as its main.
In that sense the OPal is a hybrid between a standard shield-sword fighter/tank role and healing priest-support role. Except, by combining the heal aspect with the tank aspect within a single class, it already violates the "rule of thumb" as laid out by game developers for more than three decades. Almost every incarnation of the "Paladin" in fantasy-RPGs have them weaker than in terms of pure physicality than the pure fighters, but then makes up for that relative weakness by offering something the pure fighters in terms cannot through its divine-inspired magical abilities, often taking up the form as useful party bonuses as well as secondary/support heals.
Unfortunatley, in NW, not only is the OPal a better tank (due to many issues with NW's lacking portrayal of damage-related mechanics), it also is a very powerful team-buffer. On top of that, slapping on the amount of damage that ensures either a straight-up insta-kill, or at least very heavy damage, became the last bit of hay that "broke the donkey's back" in terms of tolerance.
Something's gotta give, otherwise other classes simply lose meaning. Why would you play something else when there's a class that both survives better than you, helps out the team better than you, and deals damage better than you? Where's the "weakness" of this class?
Because it is inexcusably broken even considering the fact that I'm a TR main? :rolleyes: Sabo was pretty OP in mod5, but its outdone itself in mod6. It is now the sole-surviving "OP" TR build in the game that tops everything else, and its also the absolutely most broken horse-shi* in the history of all TR builds.
Mod2 semi-perma DF rotations were pretty OP in those days but it at least took some amount of skill, as well as required balls to always remain in close vicinity to land DF. Mod6 Sabos... skill? Who needs skill? Auto-procs do everything for you. You don't need no experience and careful rotation management. Auto-stealth feats like OWTS already does that for you .
Mod6 Sabos are nothing but essentially dumbed-down permastealth made so easy that any idiot can play it so long as he gets certain gear. It's that much broken.
I know them feels bro...not only since mod6 it started with mod3 and became more and more skillless.
To the topic OP is now in the same situation like tr's in mod 3 (nodeholder) the nerf of DJ was needed but encounters/at wills should be buffed on the other side. I guess OP has too wait for a rework for mod 7-8. Sad but true...and why is there so much hate on them a GF is also a "tank" class but has the best burst/cc rota?^^ nearly every class needs less skill than in previous mods devs should remove this auto-procc mechanics from the game they started with the "class re-balancing" patch.
Black Turtle TryhartzIV
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
IMO it needed a tone down in PvP. I played with OPs and against OPs. A friend of mine started playing OP in PvP with decent PvE gear. He survived quite well (0 tenacity) and every few minutes I heared him crying 'Bam and dead'. You cant be tanky as hell and have a one shot skill. Plz dont argue, that there is a cartain TR build with similar effect, we all know, that it is OP.
For PvE it could be a problem for doing yor dailies, some say so, some dont. On the other hand, I cant say, that I mind the nerf very much, bc I died dozends of times, bc our OP got shiny eyes from his DJ hits and skipped his tank dueties sometimes to goat our CW 'DJ, 1,2 million dmg, how about your ice knife'.
We have looked into reports of players experiencing connection problems and have been unable to identify any server, data center, or client-side issues. We believe this may be ISP related.
In my opinión a 67% nerf is too much nerf. People need to understand that when playing against someone in PVP and are killed in 1 shot by DJ is because that other player is one monster with Rank 12 enchants and transcendednt stuff. Even with blue and purple artifacts that makes the difference. Now this daily is USELESS in PVP and in PVE. Who think about this changes? Did he/she actually play the game? If we all complain about the roots/daze of HRs will you nerf it? Or the TRs instakill?
I say that undertanding that this daily needed a tweak but you have broke it making it useless.
Oh and change now the description of the daily, it is not incredible damage anymore. with luck youll make tiny damage.
My sentiments exactly. Dailies are actually easier/faster now that I can use DJ effectively on multiple mobs.
"While it is possible to tank as a Justice or Light paladin, it is substantially harder, especially on longer fights where Holy Barrier and your other defensive feats get chances to kick in and contribute quite a bit of defensive power." - System Designer Gentlemancrush
Ok so I just played my first game in pvp with the new patch and do admit the paladin is next to useless. Yes divine judgement if you was lucky could kill players in one shot but it was easily only 1 in maybe 5 or 6 attempts where this would happen. In the many cases it has failed for me the player either dodged, stood there and appeared to take zero damage from it or it took them down low and then they would use a super sprint power to run away and heal or stealth.
A Paladin now lacks any serious damage (in pvp) and deffo no CC. Most attacks do between 3-6k damage which doesn't event dint most players, and when health is low they just heal. Vs a CW a paladin can just watch as they are CC for 3 or 4 seconds a flurry of damage then comes your way, in this particular game it was between 30-50k worth of damage, you try and get close to the CW he freezes you, darts off and rinse and repeat with the CC and damage. Now you tell me how that is balanced, what could a Paladin do to prevent the CC and massive damage other than not fighting the CW.... Taking into account the Shift skill is bugged and doesn't always work, when it works it doesn't seem to absorb any damage what so ever and you die just as fast. There is one or two cc for paladins but they all last maybe 0.000001ms on players and in many cases don't even cc full stop!
Templar's Wrath is a good paladin spell for the temp hp, in the tool tip it does say it also stuns them but doesn't mention a duration. What it should say is in interrupts them it doesn't stun them. If they are casting or healing it would interrupt that case but it certainly doesn't stun them.
The other paladin cast that can stun is called Banishment but because it does zero damage it is too much of a sacrifice to use in pvp as you need to pick attacks that can do damage.
Lastly as anyone else noticed that in this game cloth, leather, mail, plate etc has no actual purpose they are all essentially cloth or even naked tbh? In many games I have pvp'd when you have a plate wearer they generally do little damage but can tell a hell of a lot of damage. A plate wear would normally defeat an apponement by surviving their flurry of attacks and then placing every so often large damage attacks their only main fear would normally be casters who negate armor but in this game a rogue or hunter can eat through plate like its paper that is not right at all.
1h + shield +plate should be hard to damage and hits moderately hard with a weapon
2h + plate should be hard to damage, has the strongest attacks
Dual Wielder + leather should do fast but relativity low damage, a strike from a 2h should seriously injure
Ranged physical more or less just like the dual wielder fast attacks but cant take much damage
Caster should be highest dps but cannot take much damage at all from physical weapons, a 2h should cut through caster like butter.
...maybe the next Paladin rework should include the feat trees of "Spinelessness" and "Doomsaying"?
Honestly, for all those "Pally now dead" people:
Why, in the first place, did you choose this class, commonly seen as the paragon of honour, valor, and steadfastness? This thread's yammering about a skill change that, with proper skill and intelligently timed application, actually can INCREASE the damage done by that skill is, to euphemize it, seriously lacking dignity...
cryptic obviously you are doing somehing wrong with the OP ! 1 class, two abilities (templar's wrath and divine judgement), hey can t be killed, tey cant kill you (unless they have their daily available), pvp was never so boring to me....
Today I ran into 2 op together.... spent five mins to damage them , pointless......
My sentiments exactly. Dailies are actually easier/faster now that I can use DJ effectively on multiple mobs.
They are if you fight groups of not too hard foes, but some hard single targets now take several minutes on my tankadin where before a couple of applications of DJ were most of what I needed.
I run into groups of mobs that can total as many as nine in a single group (in instanced content) and also in open zones like Sharandar and Dread Ring when you can pull multiple groups. It's righteous, er... no, that's DC... um... it's DIVINE!
And all you people who vote "not once" - you mean to say that in Spinward Rise you never got the quest to kill the Air Giants at Forges where there is an Air Giant AND 6 Archons? //justasking.
Seriously, people, learn to adapt or die. And if you die because you can't adapt then it must be a good riddance? I dunno. People complain about *everything*. Sheesh.
jeffmwillsonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 116Arc User
edited June 2015
I think the 67% reduction was FAR to much of a change. Especially for a daily.. My DAILY does 11k-30k with a crit and 90% crit increase from perfect vorpal and 5% increase to crit from boon and squash soup... +90% crit severity... 11k crits.... this shouldnt be a daily.... you cant balance a mechanic like this in pve and pvp... Yes it is the biggest AOE possible in the game now. PVE wise.. but with tenacity and DR and god forbid when Arpen Resist works.... At wills for other classes can crit for more then this daily.... Everyone is upset because they were being one shot killed.. yes.. i understand.. but as i stated... this is to much....
A Paladin now lacks any serious damage (in pvp) and deffo no CC. Most attacks do between 3-6k damage which doesn't event dent most players, and when health is low they just heal.
Welcome to the world of the HR, who do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage for a striker, but hey we can CC you until the cows come home \o/ If you want to dps a Paladin isn't for you - reroll GWF/GF then.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Comments
Because it is inexcusably broken even considering the fact that I'm a TR main? :rolleyes: Sabo was pretty OP in mod5, but its outdone itself in mod6. It is now the sole-surviving "OP" TR build in the game that tops everything else, and its also the absolutely most broken horse-shi* in the history of all TR builds.
Mod2 semi-perma DF rotations were pretty OP in those days but it at least took some amount of skill, as well as required balls to always remain in close vicinity to land DF. Mod6 Sabos... skill? Who needs skill? Auto-procs do everything for you. You don't need no experience and careful rotation management. Auto-stealth feats like OWTS already does that for you .
Mod6 Sabos are nothing but essentially dumbed-down permastealth made so easy that any idiot can play it so long as he gets certain gear. It's that much broken.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Or at least not if built and played properly.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I highlighted the relevant part.
And if you still think that OPs are 'off' anything, what do you consider to be their primary role?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
twi, without dragging in "lore and concept" into discussions concerning balance based on actual performance, then in its entirety the OPal is a classic example of a hybrid class. The very classic -- and still relevant -- rule of thumb concerning hybrid classes, is that its hybrid nature allows them multi-purpose utilities/roles which would normally require two or more separate classes to fulfill.
Thus, it's efficiency in combat is destined to be incomparably higher than normal single purpose roles, unless limits and inhibitions are slapped onto it. Hence, to offset this great advantage over others, its efficiency in individual areas of those multiple roles can never surpass those of the classes that take on that role within the game as its main.
In that sense the OPal is a hybrid between a standard shield-sword fighter/tank role and healing priest-support role. Except, by combining the heal aspect with the tank aspect within a single class, it already violates the "rule of thumb" as laid out by game developers for more than three decades. Almost every incarnation of the "Paladin" in fantasy-RPGs have them weaker than in terms of pure physicality than the pure fighters, but then makes up for that relative weakness by offering something the pure fighters in terms cannot through its divine-inspired magical abilities, often taking up the form as useful party bonuses as well as secondary/support heals.
Unfortunatley, in NW, not only is the OPal a better tank (due to many issues with NW's lacking portrayal of damage-related mechanics), it also is a very powerful team-buffer. On top of that, slapping on the amount of damage that ensures either a straight-up insta-kill, or at least very heavy damage, became the last bit of hay that "broke the donkey's back" in terms of tolerance.
Something's gotta give, otherwise other classes simply lose meaning. Why would you play something else when there's a class that both survives better than you, helps out the team better than you, and deals damage better than you? Where's the "weakness" of this class?
I know them feels bro...not only since mod6 it started with mod3 and became more and more skillless.
To the topic OP is now in the same situation like tr's in mod 3 (nodeholder) the nerf of DJ was needed but encounters/at wills should be buffed on the other side. I guess OP has too wait for a rework for mod 7-8. Sad but true...and why is there so much hate on them a GF is also a "tank" class but has the best burst/cc rota?^^ nearly every class needs less skill than in previous mods devs should remove this auto-procc mechanics from the game they started with the "class re-balancing" patch.
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
Do elaborate. And just to be clear about this, "instakilling big stuff" was *not* 'working properly'.
For PvE it could be a problem for doing yor dailies, some say so, some dont. On the other hand, I cant say, that I mind the nerf very much, bc I died dozends of times, bc our OP got shiny eyes from his DJ hits and skipped his tank dueties sometimes to goat our CW 'DJ, 1,2 million dmg, how about your ice knife'.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! XXXX deals 40035 (147291) Radiant Damage to you with Divine Judgement.
my hp around 70k
I say that undertanding that this daily needed a tweak but you have broke it making it useless.
Oh and change now the description of the daily, it is not incredible damage anymore. with luck youll make tiny damage.
My sentiments exactly. Dailies are actually easier/faster now that I can use DJ effectively on multiple mobs.
A Paladin now lacks any serious damage (in pvp) and deffo no CC. Most attacks do between 3-6k damage which doesn't event dint most players, and when health is low they just heal. Vs a CW a paladin can just watch as they are CC for 3 or 4 seconds a flurry of damage then comes your way, in this particular game it was between 30-50k worth of damage, you try and get close to the CW he freezes you, darts off and rinse and repeat with the CC and damage. Now you tell me how that is balanced, what could a Paladin do to prevent the CC and massive damage other than not fighting the CW.... Taking into account the Shift skill is bugged and doesn't always work, when it works it doesn't seem to absorb any damage what so ever and you die just as fast. There is one or two cc for paladins but they all last maybe 0.000001ms on players and in many cases don't even cc full stop!
Templar's Wrath is a good paladin spell for the temp hp, in the tool tip it does say it also stuns them but doesn't mention a duration. What it should say is in interrupts them it doesn't stun them. If they are casting or healing it would interrupt that case but it certainly doesn't stun them.
The other paladin cast that can stun is called Banishment but because it does zero damage it is too much of a sacrifice to use in pvp as you need to pick attacks that can do damage.
Lastly as anyone else noticed that in this game cloth, leather, mail, plate etc has no actual purpose they are all essentially cloth or even naked tbh? In many games I have pvp'd when you have a plate wearer they generally do little damage but can tell a hell of a lot of damage. A plate wear would normally defeat an apponement by surviving their flurry of attacks and then placing every so often large damage attacks their only main fear would normally be casters who negate armor but in this game a rogue or hunter can eat through plate like its paper that is not right at all.
1h + shield +plate should be hard to damage and hits moderately hard with a weapon
2h + plate should be hard to damage, has the strongest attacks
Dual Wielder + leather should do fast but relativity low damage, a strike from a 2h should seriously injure
Ranged physical more or less just like the dual wielder fast attacks but cant take much damage
Caster should be highest dps but cannot take much damage at all from physical weapons, a 2h should cut through caster like butter.
Honestly, for all those "Pally now dead" people:
Why, in the first place, did you choose this class, commonly seen as the paragon of honour, valor, and steadfastness? This thread's yammering about a skill change that, with proper skill and intelligently timed application, actually can INCREASE the damage done by that skill is, to euphemize it, seriously lacking dignity...
Today I ran into 2 op together.... spent five mins to damage them , pointless......
Norbir Hammerblow@Oathbound Paladin Level 70
They are if you fight groups of not too hard foes, but some hard single targets now take several minutes on my tankadin where before a couple of applications of DJ were most of what I needed.
And all you people who vote "not once" - you mean to say that in Spinward Rise you never got the quest to kill the Air Giants at Forges where there is an Air Giant AND 6 Archons? //justasking.
Seriously, people, learn to adapt or die. And if you die because you can't adapt then it must be a good riddance? I dunno. People complain about *everything*. Sheesh.
Welcome to the world of the HR, who do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage for a striker, but hey we can CC you until the cows come home \o/ If you want to dps a Paladin isn't for you - reroll GWF/GF then.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.