They're killable (assuming you and the paly are in similar BIS gear) but not by healers it may just take a while and good use of CC.
Pally is NOT killable in 1 vs 1 and can hardly be beaten even when doing 2 vs 1. If your pally gets beaten in 1 vs 1, you simply just isn't geared enough or know what you are doing. Our guild has tested 1 vs 1 in 4.5k~5k Gear level (top tier gear with top tier PvPers) and there is no way any class can beat Pally 1 vs 1, its also a very tough challenge doing 2 vs 1 (we are talking about 4 Legendaries+ 4 Mythic Artifacts + full Rank 12 offensive GWF/CW vs 1 pally).
While Pally has the ability to survive like nobody's business, he still has the ability to ONE SHOT other class. We are not so offended with DC's immortality because for exchange, DC cannot one shot anyone nor do much dmg/kill in PvP and is possible to kill 2 vs 1, however pally not just has that, it also has the ability to do 1 vs 2 easy.
Dont forget, Pally has been classified as a Defender class specializing in Heal or Tank, NOT DPS, they are meant to be Support/Tank/Heal Not KILL, if you are going for Kills, make yourself a DPS class.
I can see a lot of people agree/disagree some of the arguments here, but thats because some of you have not met those 4.5~5K GS Pally such as ones from our guild, 4 mythic/4legendaries and full rank 12. These pallys not only has the ability to do 1 vs 2, they are also immortal to say the least. If you dont know how powerful Pallys are and how strong this ability is, its only because you have not came across enough top tier Pallies yet.
Come back after you have met those 4 legendaries/4mythic/full R12 Pally and u would then know what I mean.
Pally is NOT killable in 1 vs 1 and can hardly be beaten even when doing 2 vs 1. If your pally gets beaten in 1 vs 1, you simply just isn't geared enough or know what you are doing. Our guild has tested 1 vs 1 in 4.5k~5k Gear level (top tier gear with top tier PvPers) and there is no way any class can beat Pally 1 vs 1, its also a very tough challenge doing 2 vs 1 (we are talking about 4 Legendaries+ 4 Mythic Artifacts + full Rank 12 offensive GWF/CW vs 1 pally).
While Pally has the ability to survive like nobody's business, he still has the ability to ONE SHOT other class. We are not so offended with DC's immortality because for exchange, DC cannot one shot anyone nor do much dmg/kill in PvP and is possible to kill 2 vs 1, however pally not just has that, it also has the ability to do 1 vs 2 easy.
Dont forget, Pally has been classified as a Defender class specializing in Heal or Tank, NOT DPS, they are meant to be Support/Tank/Heal Not KILL, if you are going for Kills, make yourself a DPS class.
I can see a lot of people agree/disagree some of the arguments here, but thats because some of you have not met those 4.5~5K GS Pally such as ones from our guild, 4 mythic/4legendaries and full rank 12. These pallys not only has the ability to do 1 vs 2, they are also immortal to say the least. If you dont know how powerful Pallys are and how strong this ability is, its only because you have not came across enough top tier Pallies yet.
Come back after you have met those 4 legendaries/4mythic/full R12 Pally and u would then know what I mean.
Paladin needs a target within ~10m to generate bonus temp HP from TW. If you stay at range he can only get a little temp hp from TW or CT (if the player took it) If you try to melee Paladin while TW is off cd, you're doing it wrong.
Paladin needs a target within ~10m to generate bonus temp HP from TW. If you stay at range he can only get a little temp hp from TW or CT (if the player took it) If you try to melee Paladin while TW is off cd, you're doing it wrong.
The Purple clowns and their mythical 5k IL Paladins. You might as well speak about the toothfairy, such extreme gear levels are beyond most of us and I really dont care what any class can do when bis. I'll worry about it once I get there, if ever
PS: The devs obviously didnt want a neutered Paladin. They gave him all that utility ( pretty much all utility and nothing else ) and when they stepped back to look it was obvious the class needed some damage. So when DJ gets adjusted, a proportional increase needs to happen to At-Wills and damaging Encounters. That way the Paladin loses the mega burst but retains his overall damage output
PS2: Here is a more relevant story, a Paladin of 3.1k IL like my own can only hold onto a node whit 3-5 people beating on him if the people are not exploiting broken gears ( Lostmauth, Wheel of Elements ), if the people are not bis and if I use Heroism. Using Heroism, Templars, Cleansing and Relentless plus some Shielding Strike here and there I can survive and kite 5 people. Without Heroism you will be CCed and you will be killed. But here's the point - Im not killing any of them with 1shot daily because I must use a passive daily instead.. My OP is Protection/Justice. The only thing tankier would be Protection/Bulwark and Im pretty sure Bulwark can not 1shot decent PVP builds with DJ.
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited May 2015
I agree with most of it, except at top gear vs top gear, its obvious nothing would kill OP 1 vs 1 (except OP themselves maybe...), but OP would have the chance to kill their opponent with one shot and this is especially obvious when they fight classes with no ability to dodge (GWF/SW).
A moderator has commented in bug report section indicating no skill should do one shot (assuming he's talking about equally geared opponents), so it is clear that damage at this level is not intended. I do however agree this daily's damage needs to be torned down but other At-Will or Encounters' damage should go up.
As a side note, for equally geared characters, any class that requires more than 2 person to take down is just wrong..., imagine having two of those in DOM node, it will be impossible to kill... personally I feel OP's temp HP and DC's heal should both be torned down a bit to a more killable level in 1 vs 1, and only the very skilled ones can tank maybe 1 vs 2, having skilled DC/OP tanking 2~4 people at once means the whole team around them are semi-unkillable army... this is especially obvious at top tier pvp with 2 healers classes around, the fight would last 5~10 minutes and at the end nobody could kill anyone...
Listen GF, PVP is, above all, situational. If somebody is caught with his pants down he gets the shaft. I've ended alot of GFs who forgot to hide behind the board, at the same time I've wasted upto 3 DJs on GFs who saw it coming and blocked. Everyone who has been around for some time knows we never really had balance in PVP. You will always either:
- meet people with better gear who stomp you
- be outnumbered
- be outplayed
- get lag in the worst time and then you miss a beat and you're a goner
- meet people with bad gear, slow mounts and no clue and you stomp them
Its never balanced. So, is DJ too strong? As with evertything else in this game there is no one difinitive answer. With low-end gear its not too strong, with medium gear it can be seen as strong vs low-end gear but not vs high-end. At high-end gear it can be seen as broken vs low-end gear and too strong vs medium. At top gear vs top gear all bets are off because there are a number of super broken things way beyond that daily.
I'll repeat, in order to adjust the Paladin and not break him, any reduction to DJ needs to be done with a boost to At-wills and damaging encounters.
Listen GF, PVP is, above all, situational. If somebody is caught with his pants down he gets the shaft. I've ended alot of GFs who forgot to hide behind the board, at the same time I've wasted upto 3 DJs on GFs who saw it coming and blocked. Everyone who has been around for some time knows we never really had balance in PVP. You will always either:
- meet people with better gear who stomp you
- be outnumbered
- be outplayed
- get lag in the worst time and then you miss a beat and you're a goner
- meet people with bad gear, slow mounts and no clue and you stomp them
Its never balanced. So, is DJ too strong? As with evertything else in this game there is no one difinitive answer. With low-end gear its not too strong, with medium gear it can be seen as strong vs low-end gear but not vs high-end. At high-end gear it can be seen as broken vs low-end gear and too strong vs medium. At top gear vs top gear all bets are off because there are a number of super broken things way beyond that daily.
I'll repeat, in order to adjust the Paladin and not break him, any reduction to DJ needs to be done with a boost to At-wills and damaging encounters.
You called 4-5k IL folks from Purple Dragon, who can play their classes at their maximum potential, clowns for saying that their OP immortal against folks with the same IL. Yet you use gears disparity in pvp as an excuse? That is kind of backward.
Do not teach father to make children. I stand beside my last sentence, you sir are close minded fool. Some ppl are masters of telling half truths. I play 3 toons in pvp (more ocasionaly), and I know all classes. I have perspective and i see whats going on on domination. OPs are beyond sabos, braking all games they are in. You have no honour to come here and pretend theres no problem. All can see it, and you look silly to defend this stupidness.
You say you do not care about bis becouse you are not bis. News falsh, there are many bis OPs You are not one of the so you not care? F... me...wh.. a .mor..
I agree with most of it, except at top gear vs top gear, its obvious nothing would kill OP 1 vs 1 (except OP themselves maybe...), but OP would have the chance to kill their opponent with one shot.
The tooltip states "massive damage" for Divine Judgement. I don't have too much of a problem with that daily, it's probably just a placeholder for those who want to DPS until they think up something better. Seriously, how else would they do damage now? There are so many other borked powers for this class however, including those that allow them to cancel all kinds of CC including prone (?!)...
Neverwinter is a broken toy ._.
The tooltip states "massive damage" for Divine Judgement. I don't have too much of a problem with that daily, it's probably just a placeholder for those who want to DPS until they think up something better. Seriously, how else would they do damage now? There are so many other borked powers for this class however, including those that allow them to cancel all kinds of CC including prone (?!)...
Neverwinter is a broken toy ._.
It's actually a quite nice, on-going experiment which ultimately proves that the "Don't nerf my class! Why don't you just buff all the others and leave my class alone!" arguments are ultimately PHAIL. When you go crazy and give crazy powerful stuff to all classes, knowingly or not, this is what we get.
Welcome to MMO where balance is not based on 1vs1. Just because your class cannot kill other doesnt mean it's unkillable for the rest of the classes. Kitting Paladin also makes it a lot harder to build AP and they cant use dailies as often.
0
lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
in this game everyone must have some damage capability. Currently the Paladin's damage capability comes down to a single daily. Thats it. The next strongest attack is Relentless which inflicts the negligible 10-15k on average players and below 10k on geared players.
FYI HRs currently have ONE attack that deals over 20k damage (less to geared players). So by your reasoning we too should have an ability that can one-shot players because our damage is even more pitiful than Paladin. I'll take that...
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
FYI HRs currently have ONE attack that deals over 20k damage (less to geared players). So by your reasoning we too should have an ability that can one-shot players because our damage is even more pitiful than Paladin. I'll take that...
And how many attacks can you do at once with a HR? As far as I remember HR has 6 encounters and 4 at-wills and you can literally daze and root lock any player. Whereas Paladin has to use at the very least 1 defensive encounter or he's squishier than a SW, so only 2 encounters are left for use. And not one of the 2 offensive encounters (Smite, Relentless Avenger) deal 20k damage. More like half that and less for geared players. So no, Paladin's damage is more pitiful than HRs and we can't even CC anyone so we could land the only big attack we have.
Like I said before, take away DJ and Paladin's just a punching bag no matter how you build it. The offensive encounters deal very low damage, there are no reliable CC encounters, in contrary, there's an encounter that makes enemy players immune to damage for 4s (rofl), 2 at-wills are bugged and don't benefit from ranks, Aura of Courage is bugged so it kills us, Sanctuary has very slow activation time and some CC still go trough it, Paladins have the lowest mobility of all classes.
So yes, this daily is the only thing that makes Paladin viable for PvP. Nerf its damage without addressing other departments and Paladin's just a toothless troll.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Thanks for showing the pathetic troll you really are. That's all I needed.
How so? Please can we dispel this myth about 6-9 encounters for HRs? yes we have the ABILITY to use 3 in melee and 3 in range BUT then riddle me this: how many of them are even remotely useful in BOTH stances? I can name four - Marauder's (minor), Fox, Hindering and Cordon/Plant Growth. The rest are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in either one form or another. Get that through your thick skull before mouthing off stuff you have no idea about.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
0
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Honestly speaking, just do something about that goddamned perma-immunity from CCs and their survivability would be under control -- reasonably tough and invulnerable against one or two, but much weaker against more players.
As it is, the back to back Sanctuary feels even worse than the mod2 GWF and their back to back Unstoppable. The window of opportunity to CC, block heal/selfbuff timing, and to deal damage, is even smaller than it was when we were all fighting the mod2 GWF.
Looks like some ppl won't stop until this class get destroy and unplayable.
For the op and other ppl suggest turn down DJ damage but increase atwill and encounters damge, they r a good ideas and acceptable. I also would like to suggest not turn down DJ damage, but change it from a holy beam to holy burning area, thus player should be able to get out of this area to avoid damge in pvp where it still dulling greate damges to mods in pve.
BUT FOR those who r trolling Paladin's tanking and healing, what are u want? You just looks like destroy this class then able to be 1v1 cc and 1-shot default the paladin. Paladin without DJ is really doing their role.
For whoever complain the daze, its the offhand effect caused the issue not the class, you should advise Dev to improve this effect like adding a icd.
For whoever complaints the heroism daily that its a perma cc immunity. Its a daily, not like unstoppable take couple hit then activate, it need to build up action points to activate. If you complaint the dc artifact and justice feat node allow Paladin's able to use daily every 1 min n 15 sec, then its the feat node issue, you should encourage Devs fix it.
For those who complains the cleaning touch, its working as intended, remove CC!! WTH you want?! The complaints just looks like want to remove the cc break function, thus they can lazily cc the paladin then 1-shot finish it. Its a great encounter to save ur self n teammates both in pve and pvp like break free from lostmauth's shout CC to skip its aoe combos. Besides, even the the paladin cc break, you can cc he/she again immediately like break free while still inside smoke boom. If you think break free from prone is not work as intended, again, encourage Devs to fix it.
For early my reply about T.negation make paladin tough. I don't know protection paladin, but I can feel the difference between devotion paladin with and without the T.negation. My tr can defeat any paladin with ds and smoke boom, but not for the T.negation paladin, only can take down half hp.
How you guys complaints and compare classe while there so many bugs and bad design among on encounter, gears and feats are all mixing together. ...
Comments
Pally is NOT killable in 1 vs 1 and can hardly be beaten even when doing 2 vs 1. If your pally gets beaten in 1 vs 1, you simply just isn't geared enough or know what you are doing. Our guild has tested 1 vs 1 in 4.5k~5k Gear level (top tier gear with top tier PvPers) and there is no way any class can beat Pally 1 vs 1, its also a very tough challenge doing 2 vs 1 (we are talking about 4 Legendaries+ 4 Mythic Artifacts + full Rank 12 offensive GWF/CW vs 1 pally).
While Pally has the ability to survive like nobody's business, he still has the ability to ONE SHOT other class. We are not so offended with DC's immortality because for exchange, DC cannot one shot anyone nor do much dmg/kill in PvP and is possible to kill 2 vs 1, however pally not just has that, it also has the ability to do 1 vs 2 easy.
Dont forget, Pally has been classified as a Defender class specializing in Heal or Tank, NOT DPS, they are meant to be Support/Tank/Heal Not KILL, if you are going for Kills, make yourself a DPS class.
I can see a lot of people agree/disagree some of the arguments here, but thats because some of you have not met those 4.5~5K GS Pally such as ones from our guild, 4 mythic/4legendaries and full rank 12. These pallys not only has the ability to do 1 vs 2, they are also immortal to say the least. If you dont know how powerful Pallys are and how strong this ability is, its only because you have not came across enough top tier Pallies yet.
Come back after you have met those 4 legendaries/4mythic/full R12 Pally and u would then know what I mean.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Paladin needs a target within ~10m to generate bonus temp HP from TW. If you stay at range he can only get a little temp hp from TW or CT (if the player took it) If you try to melee Paladin while TW is off cd, you're doing it wrong.
Yeah, because all classes are ranged.
You're actually pretty dense.
So close minded...
Steel and Magic
A moderator has commented in bug report section indicating no skill should do one shot (assuming he's talking about equally geared opponents), so it is clear that damage at this level is not intended. I do however agree this daily's damage needs to be torned down but other At-Will or Encounters' damage should go up.
As a side note, for equally geared characters, any class that requires more than 2 person to take down is just wrong..., imagine having two of those in DOM node, it will be impossible to kill... personally I feel OP's temp HP and DC's heal should both be torned down a bit to a more killable level in 1 vs 1, and only the very skilled ones can tank maybe 1 vs 2, having skilled DC/OP tanking 2~4 people at once means the whole team around them are semi-unkillable army... this is especially obvious at top tier pvp with 2 healers classes around, the fight would last 5~10 minutes and at the end nobody could kill anyone...
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
You called 4-5k IL folks from Purple Dragon, who can play their classes at their maximum potential, clowns for saying that their OP immortal against folks with the same IL. Yet you use gears disparity in pvp as an excuse? That is kind of backward.
You say you do not care about bis becouse you are not bis. News falsh, there are many bis OPs You are not one of the so you not care? F... me...wh.. a .mor..
Steel and Magic
+10tomatoes
Can't beat a geared one either, though I've rarely ever been one-shot by that move. 80K ish tops
have you seen the comment where it hit 300k pre mitigated? thats too much. of course it was migitated down to 124k. but still thats a ton of damage.
Neverwinter is a broken toy ._.
WTB Class Reroll please
I have. That's one heck of a crit.
It's actually a quite nice, on-going experiment which ultimately proves that the "Don't nerf my class! Why don't you just buff all the others and leave my class alone!" arguments are ultimately PHAIL.
God, I hate being always right.
Welcome to MMO where balance is not based on 1vs1. Just because your class cannot kill other doesnt mean it's unkillable for the rest of the classes. Kitting Paladin also makes it a lot harder to build AP and they cant use dailies as often.
FYI HRs currently have ONE attack that deals over 20k damage (less to geared players). So by your reasoning we too should have an ability that can one-shot players because our damage is even more pitiful than Paladin. I'll take that...
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
And how many attacks can you do at once with a HR? As far as I remember HR has 6 encounters and 4 at-wills and you can literally daze and root lock any player. Whereas Paladin has to use at the very least 1 defensive encounter or he's squishier than a SW, so only 2 encounters are left for use. And not one of the 2 offensive encounters (Smite, Relentless Avenger) deal 20k damage. More like half that and less for geared players. So no, Paladin's damage is more pitiful than HRs and we can't even CC anyone so we could land the only big attack we have.
Like I said before, take away DJ and Paladin's just a punching bag no matter how you build it. The offensive encounters deal very low damage, there are no reliable CC encounters, in contrary, there's an encounter that makes enemy players immune to damage for 4s (rofl), 2 at-wills are bugged and don't benefit from ranks, Aura of Courage is bugged so it kills us, Sanctuary has very slow activation time and some CC still go trough it, Paladins have the lowest mobility of all classes.
So yes, this daily is the only thing that makes Paladin viable for PvP. Nerf its damage without addressing other departments and Paladin's just a toothless troll.
Erm just one unless they changed it that when you hit all your buttons at the same time they all go off.
Yes that's right and we also shoot lasers from our eyes are thunderbolts from our arses.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Thanks for showing the pathetic troll you really are. That's all I needed.
How so? Please can we dispel this myth about 6-9 encounters for HRs? yes we have the ABILITY to use 3 in melee and 3 in range BUT then riddle me this: how many of them are even remotely useful in BOTH stances? I can name four - Marauder's (minor), Fox, Hindering and Cordon/Plant Growth. The rest are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in either one form or another. Get that through your thick skull before mouthing off stuff you have no idea about.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
with the justice tree they have permanent dailies that is the major issue.
As it is, the back to back Sanctuary feels even worse than the mod2 GWF and their back to back Unstoppable. The window of opportunity to CC, block heal/selfbuff timing, and to deal damage, is even smaller than it was when we were all fighting the mod2 GWF.
For the op and other ppl suggest turn down DJ damage but increase atwill and encounters damge, they r a good ideas and acceptable. I also would like to suggest not turn down DJ damage, but change it from a holy beam to holy burning area, thus player should be able to get out of this area to avoid damge in pvp where it still dulling greate damges to mods in pve.
BUT FOR those who r trolling Paladin's tanking and healing, what are u want? You just looks like destroy this class then able to be 1v1 cc and 1-shot default the paladin. Paladin without DJ is really doing their role.
For whoever complain the daze, its the offhand effect caused the issue not the class, you should advise Dev to improve this effect like adding a icd.
For whoever complaints the heroism daily that its a perma cc immunity. Its a daily, not like unstoppable take couple hit then activate, it need to build up action points to activate. If you complaint the dc artifact and justice feat node allow Paladin's able to use daily every 1 min n 15 sec, then its the feat node issue, you should encourage Devs fix it.
For those who complains the cleaning touch, its working as intended, remove CC!! WTH you want?! The complaints just looks like want to remove the cc break function, thus they can lazily cc the paladin then 1-shot finish it. Its a great encounter to save ur self n teammates both in pve and pvp like break free from lostmauth's shout CC to skip its aoe combos. Besides, even the the paladin cc break, you can cc he/she again immediately like break free while still inside smoke boom. If you think break free from prone is not work as intended, again, encourage Devs to fix it.
For early my reply about T.negation make paladin tough. I don't know protection paladin, but I can feel the difference between devotion paladin with and without the T.negation. My tr can defeat any paladin with ds and smoke boom, but not for the T.negation paladin, only can take down half hp.
How you guys complaints and compare classe while there so many bugs and bad design among on encounter, gears and feats are all mixing together. ...
Steel and Magic
Oh really? Prove me wrong.
What?????????
Steel and Magic