mimimi, blablabla ... a game in which the "defender" is historically so discredited and unnecessary, a controller have shield AND DODGE is absurd.
have fix ls? ok, now fix the real problem.
0
hexanna22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 204Bounty Hunter
edited March 2015
Why has no one posted that Shield Disappears after being hit a certain amount of times, and it is really hard to recast while dodging and trying not to die. try to do this in a dungeon with mobs on you, or a very deadly boss has is focused on you.
Why is this all about PvP? Pvp is dead. Why are there only 3 people arguing in each thread I try to read?
Anyway, in DnD Wizards ARE Jack of All Trades while their conterpart the Sorcs are nukers, and more narrow. Wizards get more spells and can do almost anything, but, they have less spellpoints and their spells take longer to cast, and can be interrupted. Sorcs spells are instant.
Why has no one posted that Shield Disappears after being hit a certain amount of times, and it is really hard to recast while dodging and trying not to die. try to do this in a dungeon with mobs on you, or a very deadly boss has is focused on you.
.
yer what are the conditions to make shield dissapear?
I've heard a lot of comparisons between the GWF and CW here in relation to damage resistance.
A recurring issue which pops up is how to avoid the initial burst of damage. While the CW has shield and dodge to mitigate this (and it takes good timing to dodge) the GWF has sprint (which is mediocre in this) and unstoppable (which takes time to build up).
I do agree that the GWF is at a disadvantage in these early 'burst damage' scenarios, so what are the possible mechanisms that can be implemented to fix this? Some ideas which have been put forth (for PvP only) is a reduction or removal of piercing damage; changing this mechanic will need to closely look at why the TR needs this, and perhaps modify it to create more class balance.
Also allowing GWFs to use theri "sprint" mechanic standing still - almost like a "parry" giving DR+CC immunity would also give more utility without really changing the class alot.
Following the idea above, and the central theme of the great weapon fighter, would a 'parry' type encounter from the weapon be useful? A great weapon fighter should be able to, with expertise from their weapon, deflect, parry and diffuse damaging attacks. Incorporating this into the sprint mechanic (i.e. when their stamina is high or near full) may allow the GWF to mitigate early burst damage, but it should have a limited effect during the initial part of sprint, and reduce as stamina decreases.
Or perhaps, like the wizard has shield, an encounter to allow the GWF to 'parry' attacks might be developed. Something to allow the GWFs to escape or mitigate the burst damage, but not making them too 'tanky' for the whole duration of the fight (barring the times when unstoppable is reached).
I've heard a lot of comparisons between the GWF and CW here in relation to damage resistance.
A recurring issue which pops up is how to avoid the initial burst of damage. While the CW has shield and dodge to mitigate this (and it takes good timing to dodge) the GWF has sprint (which is mediocre in this) and unstoppable (which takes time to build up).
I do agree that the GWF is at a disadvantage in these early 'burst damage' scenarios, so what are the possible mechanisms that can be implemented to fix this? Some ideas which have been put forth (for PvP only) is a reduction or removal of piercing damage; changing this mechanic will need to closely look at why the TR needs this, and perhaps modify it to create more class balance.
Following the idea above, and the central theme of the great weapon fighter, would a 'parry' type encounter from the weapon be useful? A great weapon fighter should be able to, with expertise from their weapon, deflect, parry and diffuse damaging attacks. Incorporating this into the sprint mechanic (i.e. when their stamina is high or near full) may allow the GWF to mitigate early burst damage, but it should have a limited effect during the initial part of sprint, and reduce as stamina decreases.
Or perhaps, like the wizard has shield, an encounter to allow the GWF to 'parry' attacks might be developed. Something to allow the GWFs to escape or mitigate the burst damage, but not making them too 'tanky' for the whole duration of the fight (barring the times when unstoppable is reached).
A way to implement this well could be to make "Shift" a toggle and call it "Battle stance" or something, in Battle stance GWF's has increased deflect/DR while standing still and control immunity / speed when moving. this means than sprinting still gives its benefit of "dodging cc" but you can activate when not moving to get the Defence. Stamina drain would need to be massively tweaked though. battle stance should go down like GF guard does, and sprint itself should be similar to it is at the moment (maybe 20% slower drain as moving doesnt give the DR anymore).
This is totally off on a tangent from the topic of this post though, Which was about Tabbed shield originally and ended up being about the fact that tabbed shield is far superior to other defensive abilities that a defender type class uses and it applies a bonus ALL the time (as it still gives some pre-layer DR when its totally broken) It's great that CW has a defensive skill they can use to assist their low AC. But at the same time it is strange that it has the benefit of being on a seperate DR layer whilst other classes with defensive DR boosting abilities come up as less powerful.
If shield just added to base DR and it wasn't a separate calculation that cant be pierced by armor pen etc. people probably wouldn't complain as much
If shield just added to base DR and it wasn't a separate calculation that cant be pierced by armor pen etc. people probably wouldn't complain as much
But the D&D player in me sees shield as a spell, not armor- furthermore it does require a spell/encounter slot, not an armor or enchant piece which adds to DR.
The physical mechanic of armor penetration (in my mind, and to make things internally consistent with D&D) should not affect spells; rather it should be a spell penetration mechanic, which could be implemented, but might make things trickier to incorporate in a build.
In practical terms, when I use shield, it is really only useful in the first bit of damage. The SE from stealth, or the Icy Knife, or the large swing from a mob.
When I get hit with anything, its function is reduced. It doesn't work very well in PvE if there are a lot of mobs. Sure I can dodge, but only a few times, and I don't do anything effective when I dodge. Shield doesn't work very effectively in PvP after the first few hits. Once I toe-to-toe with a good GWF, GF or melee HR I'm usually dead, if the TR can pull another huge hit, I'm usually dead or running.
If you remove our spell shield, then what would be left for us? To boost our armor with DR and HP? Without shield (in these certain instances) wizards wouldn't have much else for defense. You can time our dodges, 3 times, then run in for the kill, if you're experienced enough.
It's not terribly useful in other situations otherwise.
But the D&D player in me sees shield as a spell, not armor- furthermore it does require a spell/encounter slot, not an armor or enchant piece which adds to DR.
The physical mechanic of armor penetration (in my mind, and to make things internally consistent with D&D) should not affect spells; rather it should be a spell penetration mechanic, which could be implemented, but might make things trickier to incorporate in a build.
In practical terms, when I use shield, it is really only useful in the first bit of damage. The SE from stealth, or the Icy Knife, or the large swing from a mob.
When I get hit with anything, its function is reduced. It doesn't work very well in PvE if there are a lot of mobs. Sure I can dodge, but only a few times, and I don't do anything effective when I dodge. Shield doesn't work very effectively in PvP after the first few hits. Once I toe-to-toe with a good GWF, GF or melee HR I'm usually dead, if the TR can pull another huge hit, I'm usually dead or running.
If you remove our spell shield, then what would be left for us? To boost our armor with DR and HP? Without shield (in these certain instances) wizards wouldn't have much else for defense. You can time our dodges, 3 times, then run in for the kill, if you're experienced enough.
It's not terribly useful in other situations otherwise.
I see where you're coming from, And I'm not trying to say kill shield and make it useless. if anything I'm saying other defensive abilities should work similar.
The fact is even when broken it still provides DR as shown by the math on page 1. and as its on a seperate layer and calculated separately It's a lot stronger than conventional DR.
You're also speaking about Mod 5 GWF, where they currently have access to High damage AOE via intimidation (which will not be the case mod 6)
If we take D&D into account (as you mentioned it) GWF would have about 6x as many prones, marking enemies with most of their encounters and have multiple ways to regenerate life (healing surges) or gain more Temp HP. (If I could change GWF I'd want them to be more like a Battlerager, Battleragers Vigor is like 10x cooler than "Unstoppable") But due to NW being an Action-RPG game this was removed from PvP due to balance reasons. I've linked before multiple PnP skills that fighters have access too that would help GWF in PvE and PvP. but implementing these things would probably take too much time. Hence why there is so much discussion about CW's shield mechanic, as its Separate layer Dr would be a HUGE benefit to "tank" classes.
I never said "remove shield", Just either make it function like a conventional DR boost, or, if it has to stay the same, make the other DR boosts on defender classes such as Unstoppable, etc, function similarly. When there's screenshots of "shield" absorbing 180k from a 211k hit, and the same hit would one shot a Defender class. that shows that there is either FAR too much damage, The shield is too powerful, Or the defenders own defensive feats are insignificant and weak and need to be reworked like the effective one, or a combination of these.
When there's screenshots of "shield" absorbing 180k from a 211k hit, and the same hit would one shot a Defender class. that shows that there is either FAR too much damage, The shield is too powerful, Or the defenders own defensive feats are insignificant and weak and need to be reworked like the effective one, or a combination of these.
I agree with you here, and if it is happening, it should be looked at thoughtfully by the devs.
The above damage 211k, really should not happen outside of PvE, i.e. from an elite mob or boss where party members would have time to buff/debuff to mitigate the damage.
In PvP (I'll talk about PvP, because that's one of the instances where shield helps), a 211k hit (when HP in Mod 6 will be 70-100kHP from what I gather) is untenable for a good battle. There should be a way to mitigate it on all classes, otherwise that class will be a sitting duck for whoever deals that kind of damage. I agree that as a defender class relies primarily on DR, because of AP, effective DR is reduced, and devs should look at the mechanics of defense of all classes to prevent this from occurring.
For the CW, shield (plus their underlying DR) absorbing 180k of a 211k HP makes shield very, very good I would agree, almost essential if in PvP. Nonetheless for a wizard, it will be close to 40-45% of their life; not like a one-shot for defenders, but would still take a fair chunk of their HP. Even if we were to 'fix' shield in some way, i.e. make it work like DR, the wizard will then be one-shot, and then will be in the same boat as defenders in what you describe.
I like your idea of a battle stance for warriors, happening when their stamina is high, and reducing as they fatigue; as it will help mitigate early burst damage, but not make them like the tanks GFs are, and combined with unstoppable might make for some tactical gameplay.
Other ideas would be for devs to look at the mechanics of piercing damage, armor pen, DR and rework it so that the base defense will prevent one-shots from happening like this, or adding a layer to the class to work like shield does, but consistent with that class' mechanic.
I do agree that the GWF is at a disadvantage in these early 'burst damage' scenarios, so what are the possible mechanisms that can be implemented to fix this?
The answer lies in damage types and defense-specialization scenarios.
Basically, giving defensive skills/powers conceptual 'specializations' in accordance to different types of damages. Hence, stuff like (for example);
GWFs having much higher base resistance
against physical type damages(physical, poison), but having slightly lower base DR against magic damage(such as necrotic, elemental, arcane etc)
GWF Unstoppable increasing resistance against
ALL damage types, both physical and magical
CW Shield having the current level of very-high resistance against
magic type damage, but having much lower resistance against physical type damages
DC buffs offering the current level of very-high resistance against
magic type damage, but having much lower resistance against physical type damages
TR ITC having the current level of 100% deflection against
physical damage, but having chance to fail against magic damage
I agree with you here, and if it is happening, it should be looked at thoughtfully by the devs.
The above damage 211k, really should not happen outside of PvE, i.e. from an elite mob or boss where party members would have time to buff/debuff to mitigate the damage.
In PvP (I'll talk about PvP, because that's one of the instances where shield helps), a 211k hit (when HP in Mod 6 will be 70-100kHP from what I gather) is untenable for a good battle. There should be a way to mitigate it on all classes, otherwise that class will be a sitting duck for whoever deals that kind of damage. I agree that as a defender class relies primarily on DR, because of AP, effective DR is reduced, and devs should look at the mechanics of defense of all classes to prevent this from occurring.
For the CW, shield absorbing 180k of a 211k HP makes it very, very good I would agree, almost essential if in PvP. Nonetheless for a wizard, it will be close to 40-45% of their life; not like a one-shot for defenders, but would still take a fair chunk of their HP. Even if we were to 'fix' shield in some way, i.e. make it work like DR, the wizard will then be one-shot, and then will be in the same boat as defenders in what you describe.
I like your idea of a battle stance for warriors, happening when their stamina is high, and reducing as they fatigue; as it will help mitigate early burst damage, but not make them like the tanks GFs are, and combined with unstoppable might make for some tactical gameplay.
Other ideas would be for devs to look at the mechanics of piercing damage, armor pen, DR and rework it so that the base defense will prevent one-shots from happening like this, or adding a layer to the class to work like shield does, but consistent with that class' mechanic.
Exactly. as the saying goes "if you cant beat them, join them" The Devs seem to have decided that CW shield is good as it is (as it hasnt been changed for quite some time) so the next step in balance would be to implement the same style of DR to defender based classes that lack defence. I play TR GWF HR and have played CW DC etc. And the main reason that GWF(and SW) complain so much about such powerful defence is because they dont have the luxury of a dodge mechanic, and in GWF's case, is expected to be able to "off-tank" and fight in meele range.
And the main reason that GWF(and SW) complain so much about such powerful defence is because they dont have the luxury of a dodge mechanic, and in GWF's case, is expected to be able to "off-tank" and fight in meele range.
And just an idea, but for scourge warlocks, maybe an encounter or feature like 'dark pact' where the damage dealer receives an equal amount of damage but only lasts for a short time and would be tactically used; hence if the SW can't beat em, at least their enemies go down with them. Something to make gameplay a little fairer and more interesting.
I'd really like too see the 400k Temp hp the OP saw. because in my experience we don't get temp hp from taking damage when the damage is hitting our temp hp and the determination from dealing damage isnt that much. A̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶u̶n̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶u̶n̶b̶r̶o̶a̶d̶c̶a̶s̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶ ̶u̶n̶s̶t̶o̶p̶p̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶e̶x̶i̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶e̶m̶p̶ ̶h̶p̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶r̶i̶d̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶c̶u̶r̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶T̶e̶m̶p̶ ̶h̶p̶.̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶c̶k̶.̶ ̶
also I see what you're trying too say. but Ayroux did the math.
Edit : Now I'm not sure whats going on. I just tested stacking Temp HP again with my 60 on preview, and Temp HP DOES NOT STACK. I used unstoppable at full Determination. and got 23k, I used it again at full determination, And did not gain any more. When using Unstoppable at 50% determination. my TEMP HP DROPPED to the new lower value.
so the OP didn't see what he thinks in original post, unless it was a bug.
So I guess if you took NO damage for a good 5-6 mins, and continuously attacked to build determination and popped unstoppable. you could theoretically stack 400k.
But I do not believe that this was done in an actual combat situation without a video of the GWF. as even a trash mob would hit hard enough to break that temp hp off you.
I'd really like too see the 400k Temp hp you saw. because in my experience we don't get temp hp from taking damage when the damage is hitting our temp hp and the determination from dealing damage isnt that much. A̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶u̶n̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶u̶n̶b̶r̶o̶a̶d̶c̶a̶s̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶ ̶u̶n̶s̶t̶o̶p̶p̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶e̶x̶i̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶e̶m̶p̶ ̶h̶p̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶r̶i̶d̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶c̶u̶r̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶T̶e̶m̶p̶ ̶h̶p̶.̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶c̶k̶.̶ ̶
also I see what you're trying too say. but Ayroux did the math.
Edit : tested it on Preview. I guess it does stack now. must of been changed recently. My 70 is full of black holes so but still had pretty high power. tested on 70 and on 60 (21k gearscore 60). half determination from damage takes about 10-15 seconds average , gives around 8-9k temp hp for the 70. so i'd assume with average gear could pull 14-15k hp (previously was getting around 23 with full determination, but with full elem fire and rank 12's which realistically the average player will not achieve. I was only missing 4 pieces of gear)
So I guess if you took NO damage for a good 5-6 mins, and continuously attacked to build determination and popped unstoppable. you could theoretically stack 400k.
But I do not believe that this was done in an actual combat situation without a video of the GWF. as even a trash mob would hit hard enough to break that temp hp off you.
Acctualy i think its possible. We r getting temp tp form unstoppable, and unstopable form determination. Determination we gain from both dealing and taking dmg (as destro) and there is when fun start. Coz if u r not taking dmg, u r accumulating ur temp point, and those dont disappear when u pop unstoppable again. i was only able to double my hp ( so i went from 40k hp to 40k+ 40k temp point) but when questin u r taking dmg. So i never stayed with full temp points. But i guess when u r not taking dmg, u can accumualte pretty high number, and full determination from dmg deal is around 1/2 of rotation. ^^
Acctualy i think its possible. We r getting temp tp form unstoppable, and unstopable form determination. Determination we gain from both dealing and taking dmg (as destro) and there is when fun start. Coz if u r not taking dmg, u r accumulating ur temp point, and those dont disappear when u pop unstoppable again. i was only able to double my hp ( so i went from 40k hp to 40k+ 40k temp point) but when questin u r taking dmg. So i never stayed with full temp points. But i guess when u r not taking dmg, u can accumualte pretty high number, and full determination from dmg deal is around 1/2 of rotation. ^^
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Unless its been changed we dont get determination from Taking damage when we have temp HP though. or did they change that also. unless you're fighting trash and dodging nonstop to stack temp HP. i cant see it being a thing in PvE. in a PVP situation I cant see it possible or lasting more than a second or two (like currently) but I guess there's plenty of time for balance. I'm not leveling up to 70 again on preview with only 2 weeks to go so I wont be able to test any more 70 stuff till release (**** black holes.)
You've set up a GWF fully orientated on tank in feats and passives. Now, where's the damage of such GWF compared to a CW with shield on tab or a TR? Far behind.
Negation is available to all classes. It's not an argument.
DR can be debuffed a lot on every source you mentioned GWF have access to. And can still be pierced.
So DR is, again, not an argument unless you make it working like CW shield.
Only valid point is deflection chance. But:
Halfling is available to all classes. Not an argument.
DEX belt means you sacrifice something else like HP or STR.
You counted belt 2 times (at the start, then counting underwear)
Silveries are, again, available to all classes.
Ubiquitous shield...lol. Give up 25% crit severity and 2% crit chance, which means again you give up offense a lot.
I see much theorycrafting what i'd say is:
How much more defelct/ DR GWFs get COMPARED TO now?
Warriors courage is 9% deflect and 15% DR.
Elemental set LOSES the set bonus so actually you get LESS deflection from there.
And 15% DR pierceable/ debuffable from countless scars, less effective considering damage is burst and burst is not delivered after 15 hits.
GWF will not get much more defensive stats and GWF DR will still be weak and pierced/ debuffed.
Considering DPS will be higher too (you know, other classes get DPS buffs too, and a lot), what makes you think GWFs wil ltank more except some flawed theorycrafting?
Then, to the above you replied ending your post with this:
Obviously, a lot of GWFs simply don't understand the mechanics involved and are just crying for nerfs to others on top of the unnecessary boosts they already received so they can get some easy victims again.
You might want to go check who came into the thread with a poor attitude, then. I made a post summarizing how GWFs could potentially become very tanky, that some of the new features, feats and changes could have potentially extremely strong synergy and that additional boosts before we even get a good feel for how all that works together would be a bad idea. Then Pando responded with nitpicking petty mistakes ("you listed belt twice") while generally taking an insulting tone.
And when he then comes in with additional insults ("not in touch with reality") while actually claiming I posted something I didn't, that's funny. And when he posts "oh, coming from a CW, that's funny," I just respond with "GWF tribalism."
Now come back talking about tribalism. You were the first one posting arrogant and "tribalistic" stuff.
Second: i wasn't "nitpicking", i was pointing out that your theorycrafting was bias. You never said "i think there might be this risk". You jumped in a discussion about shield vs norma DR/ GWF tools where people posted actual data and testing, and started saying "GWF WILL BE THIS WAY" and "all the data indicates that GWFs will tank too much", along with the above statement where you already said the buffs were "unnecessary".
So to sum it up you posted as if your theorycrafting was a clear proof of future opness, and i replied politely pointing out flaws in your theorycrafting, saying it was then not that obvious as you were presenting it.
Then you replied with arrogance, accusing me of nitpicking and ending your post with the above statement.
Re-read your own posts before accusing others of tribalism and insults.
Btw, to clarify, i never asked for a shield nerf, but for unstoppable-sprint dr to be a separate layer of dr like CW shield. Like ayroux said. Was my very same point in other threads too.
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited March 2015
And other classes have mechanism shouldnt have.I Think you know that trickster rogue can control 100% effective.yesterday i was in valindra tower with rogues no control wizard i was the warlock i didnt feel any threat mobs perma controlled.My point?rogue has stealth good control and deflect.So remove from wizard the shield has the control to defend but also remove and from rogue the deflect has control too to defend.
You see, when a GWF has 40% versus a CW who has 20% DR. You may be thinking the GWF is tankier. Well yes and no.
When you look at ARP, most classes are well above 25% ARP. Most classes even have 30%+ ARP - or just pure piercing damage.
Ontop of that, tenacity also helps the LEAST tanky classes the most.
So lets look at two scenarios: The attack of each deals 10,000 damage with 25% ARP.
Target 1: GWF, 40% DR, 25% Tenacity.
10,000 FIRST attacks and due to ARP, only 15% DR remains. Thus damage turns to 8,500. THEN Tenacity kicks in for another 25% OF that number = (8,500 * .75) = 6,375 FINAL damage to the GWF. So his "Effective DR" is really only about 36-37%
Target 2: CW, 20% DR, 25% tenacity and Shield FULLY broken (doesnt even need to be on Tab).
10,000 + 25% ARP which mitigates ALL his DR = 10,000 full damage THEN diminished by tenacity = 7,500 damage (10,000 * .75) But THEN gets another 25% mitigation from shield for (7,500 *.75) = 5,625 FINAL damage to the CW.So his "Effective DR" is really about 43-44%
So which is better? The CW.
Now NOONE is claiming the CW is better than a GF holding block - but the GF CANT attack while blocking, the GF also cant "dodge" and get 100% DR for those frames.
Heck even look at a GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE (Non-Sent). Most GWFs are <40% DR but even boost that another 15% (same attacker).
55% DR, 25% Tenacity versus 10,000 + 25% ARP.
Net: 7,000 after first DR, then * .75 for Tenacity = 5,250 FINAL DAMAGE. Given non-sents rarely have 40% base DR, CW shield is ROUGHLY the same as a non-sent GWF IN UNSTOPPABLE - this is FULLY broken CW shield NOT on tab.
I haven't reported seeing any 400k temp hp, that was someone else, apparently doing a dungeon run. I think it's probably true, but also probably the result of unusual circumstances (like avoiding taking damage for a long time while building determination through feats/features) or a bug (like being related to the excessive damage levels currently seen).
Yeah sorry Mac, The OP posted that, Was pretty tired when I was reading through the thread.
I see in your later comments you agree that The seperate layer DR shouldnt be exclusive to shield also, which is basically what I think. I don't mind at all if a CW has a extremely powerful mastery defensive skill, for solo play its extremely useful and it is a great defense again that spike burst thats all so common in PvP. I just think that Unstoppable/ Dr boosting buffs should work similar (but with a flat %, not a Super high one that drops).
Edit : Now I'm not sure whats going on. I just tested stacking Temp HP again with my 60 on preview, and Temp HP DOES NOT STACK. I used unstoppable at full Determination. and got 23k, I used it again at full determination, And did not gain any more. When using Unstoppable at 50% determination. my TEMP HP DROPPED to the new lower value.
so the OP didn't see what he thinks in original post, unless it was a bug.
Comments
have fix ls? ok, now fix the real problem.
Why is this all about PvP? Pvp is dead. Why are there only 3 people arguing in each thread I try to read?
Anyway, in DnD Wizards ARE Jack of All Trades while their conterpart the Sorcs are nukers, and more narrow. Wizards get more spells and can do almost anything, but, they have less spellpoints and their spells take longer to cast, and can be interrupted. Sorcs spells are instant.
yer what are the conditions to make shield dissapear?
A recurring issue which pops up is how to avoid the initial burst of damage. While the CW has shield and dodge to mitigate this (and it takes good timing to dodge) the GWF has sprint (which is mediocre in this) and unstoppable (which takes time to build up).
I do agree that the GWF is at a disadvantage in these early 'burst damage' scenarios, so what are the possible mechanisms that can be implemented to fix this? Some ideas which have been put forth (for PvP only) is a reduction or removal of piercing damage; changing this mechanic will need to closely look at why the TR needs this, and perhaps modify it to create more class balance.
Following the idea above, and the central theme of the great weapon fighter, would a 'parry' type encounter from the weapon be useful? A great weapon fighter should be able to, with expertise from their weapon, deflect, parry and diffuse damaging attacks. Incorporating this into the sprint mechanic (i.e. when their stamina is high or near full) may allow the GWF to mitigate early burst damage, but it should have a limited effect during the initial part of sprint, and reduce as stamina decreases.
Or perhaps, like the wizard has shield, an encounter to allow the GWF to 'parry' attacks might be developed. Something to allow the GWFs to escape or mitigate the burst damage, but not making them too 'tanky' for the whole duration of the fight (barring the times when unstoppable is reached).
A way to implement this well could be to make "Shift" a toggle and call it "Battle stance" or something, in Battle stance GWF's has increased deflect/DR while standing still and control immunity / speed when moving. this means than sprinting still gives its benefit of "dodging cc" but you can activate when not moving to get the Defence. Stamina drain would need to be massively tweaked though. battle stance should go down like GF guard does, and sprint itself should be similar to it is at the moment (maybe 20% slower drain as moving doesnt give the DR anymore).
This is totally off on a tangent from the topic of this post though, Which was about Tabbed shield originally and ended up being about the fact that tabbed shield is far superior to other defensive abilities that a defender type class uses and it applies a bonus ALL the time (as it still gives some pre-layer DR when its totally broken) It's great that CW has a defensive skill they can use to assist their low AC. But at the same time it is strange that it has the benefit of being on a seperate DR layer whilst other classes with defensive DR boosting abilities come up as less powerful.
If shield just added to base DR and it wasn't a separate calculation that cant be pierced by armor pen etc. people probably wouldn't complain as much
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
But the D&D player in me sees shield as a spell, not armor- furthermore it does require a spell/encounter slot, not an armor or enchant piece which adds to DR.
The physical mechanic of armor penetration (in my mind, and to make things internally consistent with D&D) should not affect spells; rather it should be a spell penetration mechanic, which could be implemented, but might make things trickier to incorporate in a build.
In practical terms, when I use shield, it is really only useful in the first bit of damage. The SE from stealth, or the Icy Knife, or the large swing from a mob.
When I get hit with anything, its function is reduced. It doesn't work very well in PvE if there are a lot of mobs. Sure I can dodge, but only a few times, and I don't do anything effective when I dodge. Shield doesn't work very effectively in PvP after the first few hits. Once I toe-to-toe with a good GWF, GF or melee HR I'm usually dead, if the TR can pull another huge hit, I'm usually dead or running.
If you remove our spell shield, then what would be left for us? To boost our armor with DR and HP? Without shield (in these certain instances) wizards wouldn't have much else for defense. You can time our dodges, 3 times, then run in for the kill, if you're experienced enough.
It's not terribly useful in other situations otherwise.
I see where you're coming from, And I'm not trying to say kill shield and make it useless. if anything I'm saying other defensive abilities should work similar.
The fact is even when broken it still provides DR as shown by the math on page 1. and as its on a seperate layer and calculated separately It's a lot stronger than conventional DR.
You're also speaking about Mod 5 GWF, where they currently have access to High damage AOE via intimidation (which will not be the case mod 6)
If we take D&D into account (as you mentioned it) GWF would have about 6x as many prones, marking enemies with most of their encounters and have multiple ways to regenerate life (healing surges) or gain more Temp HP. (If I could change GWF I'd want them to be more like a Battlerager, Battleragers Vigor is like 10x cooler than "Unstoppable") But due to NW being an Action-RPG game this was removed from PvP due to balance reasons. I've linked before multiple PnP skills that fighters have access too that would help GWF in PvE and PvP. but implementing these things would probably take too much time. Hence why there is so much discussion about CW's shield mechanic, as its Separate layer Dr would be a HUGE benefit to "tank" classes.
I never said "remove shield", Just either make it function like a conventional DR boost, or, if it has to stay the same, make the other DR boosts on defender classes such as Unstoppable, etc, function similarly. When there's screenshots of "shield" absorbing 180k from a 211k hit, and the same hit would one shot a Defender class. that shows that there is either FAR too much damage, The shield is too powerful, Or the defenders own defensive feats are insignificant and weak and need to be reworked like the effective one, or a combination of these.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
I agree with you here, and if it is happening, it should be looked at thoughtfully by the devs.
The above damage 211k, really should not happen outside of PvE, i.e. from an elite mob or boss where party members would have time to buff/debuff to mitigate the damage.
In PvP (I'll talk about PvP, because that's one of the instances where shield helps), a 211k hit (when HP in Mod 6 will be 70-100kHP from what I gather) is untenable for a good battle. There should be a way to mitigate it on all classes, otherwise that class will be a sitting duck for whoever deals that kind of damage. I agree that as a defender class relies primarily on DR, because of AP, effective DR is reduced, and devs should look at the mechanics of defense of all classes to prevent this from occurring.
For the CW, shield (plus their underlying DR) absorbing 180k of a 211k HP makes shield very, very good I would agree, almost essential if in PvP. Nonetheless for a wizard, it will be close to 40-45% of their life; not like a one-shot for defenders, but would still take a fair chunk of their HP. Even if we were to 'fix' shield in some way, i.e. make it work like DR, the wizard will then be one-shot, and then will be in the same boat as defenders in what you describe.
I like your idea of a battle stance for warriors, happening when their stamina is high, and reducing as they fatigue; as it will help mitigate early burst damage, but not make them like the tanks GFs are, and combined with unstoppable might make for some tactical gameplay.
Other ideas would be for devs to look at the mechanics of piercing damage, armor pen, DR and rework it so that the base defense will prevent one-shots from happening like this, or adding a layer to the class to work like shield does, but consistent with that class' mechanic.
The answer lies in damage types and defense-specialization scenarios.
Basically, giving defensive skills/powers conceptual 'specializations' in accordance to different types of damages. Hence, stuff like (for example);
GWFs having much higher base resistance
against physical type damages(physical, poison), but having slightly lower base DR against magic damage(such as necrotic, elemental, arcane etc)GWF Unstoppable increasing resistance against
ALL damage types, both physical and magicalCW Shield having the current level of very-high resistance against
magic type damage, but having much lower resistance against physical type damagesDC buffs offering the current level of very-high resistance against
magic type damage, but having much lower resistance against physical type damagesTR ITC having the current level of 100% deflection against
physical damage, but having chance to fail against magic damage...etc etc..
Exactly. as the saying goes "if you cant beat them, join them" The Devs seem to have decided that CW shield is good as it is (as it hasnt been changed for quite some time) so the next step in balance would be to implement the same style of DR to defender based classes that lack defence. I play TR GWF HR and have played CW DC etc. And the main reason that GWF(and SW) complain so much about such powerful defence is because they dont have the luxury of a dodge mechanic, and in GWF's case, is expected to be able to "off-tank" and fight in meele range.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
And just an idea, but for scourge warlocks, maybe an encounter or feature like 'dark pact' where the damage dealer receives an equal amount of damage but only lasts for a short time and would be tactically used; hence if the SW can't beat em, at least their enemies go down with them. Something to make gameplay a little fairer and more interesting.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
also I see what you're trying too say. but Ayroux did the math.
Edit : Now I'm not sure whats going on. I just tested stacking Temp HP again with my 60 on preview, and Temp HP DOES NOT STACK. I used unstoppable at full Determination. and got 23k, I used it again at full determination, And did not gain any more. When using Unstoppable at 50% determination. my TEMP HP DROPPED to the new lower value.
so the OP didn't see what he thinks in original post, unless it was a bug.
So I guess if you took NO damage for a good 5-6 mins, and continuously attacked to build determination and popped unstoppable. you could theoretically stack 400k.
But I do not believe that this was done in an actual combat situation without a video of the GWF. as even a trash mob would hit hard enough to break that temp hp off you.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Acctualy i think its possible. We r getting temp tp form unstoppable, and unstopable form determination. Determination we gain from both dealing and taking dmg (as destro) and there is when fun start. Coz if u r not taking dmg, u r accumulating ur temp point, and those dont disappear when u pop unstoppable again. i was only able to double my hp ( so i went from 40k hp to 40k+ 40k temp point) but when questin u r taking dmg. So i never stayed with full temp points. But i guess when u r not taking dmg, u can accumualte pretty high number, and full determination from dmg deal is around 1/2 of rotation. ^^
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Unless its been changed we dont get determination from Taking damage when we have temp HP though. or did they change that also. unless you're fighting trash and dodging nonstop to stack temp HP. i cant see it being a thing in PvE. in a PVP situation I cant see it possible or lasting more than a second or two (like currently) but I guess there's plenty of time for balance. I'm not leveling up to 70 again on preview with only 2 weeks to go so I wont be able to test any more 70 stuff till release
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Then, to the above you replied ending your post with this:
Now come back talking about tribalism. You were the first one posting arrogant and "tribalistic" stuff.
Second: i wasn't "nitpicking", i was pointing out that your theorycrafting was bias. You never said "i think there might be this risk". You jumped in a discussion about shield vs norma DR/ GWF tools where people posted actual data and testing, and started saying "GWF WILL BE THIS WAY" and "all the data indicates that GWFs will tank too much", along with the above statement where you already said the buffs were "unnecessary".
So to sum it up you posted as if your theorycrafting was a clear proof of future opness, and i replied politely pointing out flaws in your theorycrafting, saying it was then not that obvious as you were presenting it.
Then you replied with arrogance, accusing me of nitpicking and ending your post with the above statement.
Re-read your own posts before accusing others of tribalism and insults.
Does any DEV read it? Doubt it. Man you are pro.
.Suicide Squad.
Yeah sorry Mac, The OP posted that, Was pretty tired when I was reading through the thread.
I see in your later comments you agree that The seperate layer DR shouldnt be exclusive to shield also, which is basically what I think. I don't mind at all if a CW has a extremely powerful mastery defensive skill, for solo play its extremely useful and it is a great defense again that spike burst thats all so common in PvP. I just think that Unstoppable/ Dr boosting buffs should work similar (but with a flat %, not a Super high one that drops).
Edit : Now I'm not sure whats going on. I just tested stacking Temp HP again with my 60 on preview, and Temp HP DOES NOT STACK. I used unstoppable at full Determination. and got 23k, I used it again at full determination, And did not gain any more. When using Unstoppable at 50% determination. my TEMP HP DROPPED to the new lower value.
so the OP didn't see what he thinks in original post, unless it was a bug.
I'd still really like too see What I said in this post, As it gives GWF the versatility of higher defense when "standing their ground" or, normal defense but faster speeds, when "sprinting"
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
<bump> /10charrrrr
Uhhh the CW has to press the button to cause it to pop ?