To help get this thread back on topic, I now proclaim the new topic direction of this thread to be based upon Panderus' respectful reply to our feedback:
"I just tracked a few people down and the current plan is to have the primary Oathbound Paladin gear rewards be maces. HOWEVER, a number of items especially transmute rewards will use Guardian Fighter swords and at least one Devoted Cleric Scepter.
So there will be choices other than maces, but that will be the primary focus.
I'll blow vuvuzela until I die!"
Please keep further replies of feedback and opinions based upon this direction. Thanks!
TYVM Zebular, now that they make that point clear I can be totally sure I will never make a paladin as I dont like the renamed Cleric/Figther
I am glad that the OP has in general mace instead of a sword, because a mace would further dilute the uniqueness and character of the classes, in this case the ones of the Guardian Fighter. The OP has like the GF a shield, and some shields are even copies of GF shields. Having on top of that the same kind of weapon like the GF would not be acceptable anymore. Uniqueness and Character of the GF are already under attack by the direful Paragon path sharing with the GWF.
I feel that the D&D background should take a backseat in this regard, classes should have a minimum degree of uniqueness.
I'm cleaning mountain dew out of my keyboard thanks to you.
Ditto.
OT: I think Panderus's findings and the Devs direction is just fine. The main reasons I feel this way are:
1) This is not table-top D&D, this is an MMO based on D&D
2) It helps set the class apart from others, and the best way to set it apart from GF is to use a different weapon
3) Not liking a Mace is a silly reason to forego a class you might really enjoy (the way I see it)
4) Weapon drops from leveling are all basically temporary - do you transmute leveling weapons? Then why does it matter?
It's just a game. Sure, there is passion about what you feel is the "right" way to do it, but that doesn't make other ways wrong, either. The fact is that Wizards of the Coast have approved this idea that the game's Oathbound Paladin will use this has it's main weapon. I don't see the big deal about it and yes, I know it is a big deal to others and I really do respect that.
But also put yourself into the Dev's shoes: The Paladin is a fighter, carries a shield like the GF, wears armor like the GF, helmet like the GF... other-class players will become too easily confused when they see Paladins that look just like GFs. Hey, here's an idea: let's have them use a different weapon. Now they can be identified individually by sight.
Yes, yes, yes: transmutes and other such. Eventually many Paladins will transmute their Maces into Swords and so on which makes the idea of differentiation by weapon a moot point. I get it. But end-game isn't the point. The point of differentiation is during the first 59 (69 now?) levels where new players are still getting their sea-legs. By the time they hit their 30's and 40's then they'll have a strong understanding of how things work; which is where I suspect we'll start seeing things like swords drop. Well: a definite possible maybe, at least.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited February 2015
No shortage of GFs have transmuted their weapon into a mace as well. Mace of the Nine Hells and Maul of Midnight (it's a mace, not a hammer) are both nifty skins, if a bit thematically dark.
TYVM Zebular, now that they make that point clear I can be totally sure I will never make a paladin as I dont like the renamed Cleric/Figther
Pretty much I feel similarly. It's just not Dungeons & Dragons. Paying AD for a transmute just makes a whole new problem and compounds the existing problem. As a casual player I will be surprised if I have the AD for it, and clearly that's only going to happen one time. Paying money so that I can get my hands on some AD to do something that should be a common staple of the class just seems shady to me at best. It definitely doesn't endear me to wanting to give Cryptic money and it personally makes me feel like Cryptic just doesn't care about us as players or consumers. When they make a paladin that feels like a paladin from a D&D game, I'll take a look at it. Until then I'm like Tomiotar, I'll pass on the cleric/fighter and will probably just stick to my Warlock.
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited February 2015
Just want to reiterate:
Panderus stated:
"I just tracked a few people down and the current plan is to have the primary Oathbound Paladin gear rewards be maces. HOWEVER, a number of items especially transmute rewards will use Guardian Fighter swords and at least one Devoted Cleric Scepter.
So there will be choices other than maces, but that will be the primary focus.
I'll blow vuvuzela until I die!"
Pay note to the wording: "have the primary Oathbound Paladin gear rewards be maces" and then "a number of items especially transmute rewards will use Guardian Fighter swords and at least one Devoted Cleric Scepter"
No where did he say that swords will only be transmutes. He said, "a number of items" and then included emphasis on transmutes, drawing notice to swords and scepters.
So, let's take a step back, relax, and wait for more updates to see what we get before drawing conclusions.
"I just tracked a few people down and the current plan is to have the primary Oathbound Paladin gear rewards be maces. HOWEVER, a number of items especially transmute rewards will use Guardian Fighter swords and at least one Devoted Cleric Scepter.
So there will be choices other than maces, but that will be the primary focus.
I'll blow vuvuzela until I die!"
Pay note to the wording: "have the primary Oathbound Paladin gear rewards be maces" and then "a number of items especially transmute rewards will use Guardian Fighter swords and at least one Devoted Cleric Scepter"
No where did he say that swords will only be transmutes. He said, "a number of items" and then included emphasis on transmutes, drawing notice to swords and scepters.
So, let's take a step back, relax, and wait for more updates to see what we get before drawing conclusions.
Do you think we may hear more word on this soon Zebular?
Historically knights used swords not maces. Also when they fought in the melee lists (the ground equivalency of jousting) they carried broadswords. Knights were versed in all forms of martial combat at the time, which would include maces, the flail (ball and chain), and the list goes on. Swords were however their mainstay.
Gary Gygax based the paladin class on the legends of St. George who ran around on a white horse named Bayard and carried a magic sword named Ascalon that he slew dragons with. St. George was the first paladin to ever appear in our real myths and legends and appeared after the time of Uther Pendragon and before Arthur Pendragon would take the throne. Other paladins in the Arthurian mythos (Galahad, Lancelot, etc.) all used swords.
I shouldn't have to grind out a transmute and then pay an absurd fee just to use a weapon which should be a mainstay to the class. That's just wrong. It's unfair. We already share armor with the guardian fighter why can't we share weapons with them? We could do the same thing with the mace for them too. It happens in D&D where many character classes share weapons. Why should a game based on D&D be any different?
Furthermore, when I heard that "maces are iconic for paladins" I almost fell out of my chair at the statement. In 33 years of playing table top D&D (and having worked as an author for D&D based products) I have never once seen a paladin anywhere in any game I ran or play use ANY blunt weapon at all ever. I've always seen paladins using swords. Let us not also forget that the holy avenger is a sword, not an axe, not a flail, and definitely not a blunt weapon. Paladins use swords. No matter how you try to put the square peg into the round hole because it's your personal preference it still won't fit.
Maces are not nor will ever be iconic. Swords are iconic as they have been since there have ever been knights, and all the paladins from our own myths and legends were all pious knights.
I for one do not like it. I will never like it. If you tell me that I have to like it the only thing that you will accomplish is making me resentful and liking it even less than I already do. It's an eyesore.
There is just no reason for this at all except for someones personal preference. I can surmise that's the case given the statement made about maces being iconic. There is plenty of reason for paladins using swords and plenty of things that could easily be done to fix the problem and resolve it so that everyone can be happy all across the board.
I agree whole heartedly. As someone who has also played D&D since the days of pewter miniatures and graph paper, the sword was the iconic weapon for paladins. Even after weapon proficiencies changed with subsequent rule sets, paladins more often than not, carried swords. To this day, I associate blunts weapons with clerics and monks (even though those rules have changed too).
The sword should be implemented as a choice for paladins, and -not-, as simply a transmute. In my opinion, transmutation is already too expensive if you care about the look of your character during leveling. Not all of us race to endgame (I'm not denigrating that play choice, just noting it as a choice). Some of us enjoy what our characters are doing before endgame. Holy Avengers are swords...
D&D Paladins have always been sword wielders. For a dev to reportedly claim that the mace is 'iconic' for the class demonstrates a distressing level of ignorance about the intellectual property NWO is based on.
I'm not a hard-core D&D traditionalist by any means. I appreciate that an MMO has to make compromises with the source material. And I'm not a dev-basher at all. But Paladins wielding maces is just wrong. End of.
I wasn't going to come out and say this, but it's what I was thinking. I mean just do a web search for Heritage or Reaper D&D miniatures and the vast majority of anything labeled paladin, is carrying a sword. Again, concessions to the game have to be made because of the medium, but there still needs to be both loyalty and familiarity with the spirit of the original IP
Pretty much and it looks like there is not going to be any changes. They are pushing this out March 17th. Personally I won't be touching the fighter cleric titled the paladin at this point. Saying there will be "transmutes" which translates into spending cold hard cash for AD for anyone new or casual is dishonest at best, especially when this is something that should be a basic staple of the class. That just makes it even worse. When they make a real paladin I'll be back. Until then I'll spend my money on other MMO's.
I wasn't going to come out and say this, but it's what I was thinking. I mean just do a web search for Heritage or Reaper D&D miniatures and the vast majority of anything labeled paladin, is carrying a sword. Again, concessions to the game have to be made because of the medium, but there still needs to be both loyalty and familiarity with the spirit of the original IP
You know I was thinking about this and your post reminded me about it. The developers contradict themselves when they say "maces are iconic for paladins". If that's the case then I'd love for them to explain Helm's Hold and all the other NPC paladins and statues of paladins in the game. All depicted with varying degrees of swords!
Comments
TYVM Zebular, now that they make that point clear I can be totally sure I will never make a paladin as I dont like the renamed Cleric/Figther
I feel that the D&D background should take a backseat in this regard, classes should have a minimum degree of uniqueness.
I'm cleaning mountain dew out of my keyboard thanks to you.
Ditto.
OT: I think Panderus's findings and the Devs direction is just fine. The main reasons I feel this way are:
1) This is not table-top D&D, this is an MMO based on D&D
2) It helps set the class apart from others, and the best way to set it apart from GF is to use a different weapon
3) Not liking a Mace is a silly reason to forego a class you might really enjoy (the way I see it)
4) Weapon drops from leveling are all basically temporary - do you transmute leveling weapons? Then why does it matter?
It's just a game. Sure, there is passion about what you feel is the "right" way to do it, but that doesn't make other ways wrong, either. The fact is that Wizards of the Coast have approved this idea that the game's Oathbound Paladin will use this has it's main weapon. I don't see the big deal about it and yes, I know it is a big deal to others and I really do respect that.
But also put yourself into the Dev's shoes: The Paladin is a fighter, carries a shield like the GF, wears armor like the GF, helmet like the GF... other-class players will become too easily confused when they see Paladins that look just like GFs. Hey, here's an idea: let's have them use a different weapon. Now they can be identified individually by sight.
Yes, yes, yes: transmutes and other such. Eventually many Paladins will transmute their Maces into Swords and so on which makes the idea of differentiation by weapon a moot point. I get it. But end-game isn't the point. The point of differentiation is during the first 59 (69 now?) levels where new players are still getting their sea-legs. By the time they hit their 30's and 40's then they'll have a strong understanding of how things work; which is where I suspect we'll start seeing things like swords drop. Well: a definite possible maybe, at least.
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All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Pretty much I feel similarly. It's just not Dungeons & Dragons. Paying AD for a transmute just makes a whole new problem and compounds the existing problem. As a casual player I will be surprised if I have the AD for it, and clearly that's only going to happen one time. Paying money so that I can get my hands on some AD to do something that should be a common staple of the class just seems shady to me at best. It definitely doesn't endear me to wanting to give Cryptic money and it personally makes me feel like Cryptic just doesn't care about us as players or consumers. When they make a paladin that feels like a paladin from a D&D game, I'll take a look at it. Until then I'm like Tomiotar, I'll pass on the cleric/fighter and will probably just stick to my Warlock.
Sovereign Lord of the 1st Fist of Light
Global Handle: @Marshal_Valor
Panderus stated:
So there will be choices other than maces, but that will be the primary focus.
I'll blow vuvuzela until I die!"
Pay note to the wording: "have the primary Oathbound Paladin gear rewards be maces" and then "a number of items especially transmute rewards will use Guardian Fighter swords and at least one Devoted Cleric Scepter"
No where did he say that swords will only be transmutes. He said, "a number of items" and then included emphasis on transmutes, drawing notice to swords and scepters.
So, let's take a step back, relax, and wait for more updates to see what we get before drawing conclusions.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Do you think we may hear more word on this soon Zebular?
Sovereign Lord of the 1st Fist of Light
Global Handle: @Marshal_Valor
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
I agree whole heartedly. As someone who has also played D&D since the days of pewter miniatures and graph paper, the sword was the iconic weapon for paladins. Even after weapon proficiencies changed with subsequent rule sets, paladins more often than not, carried swords. To this day, I associate blunts weapons with clerics and monks (even though those rules have changed too).
The sword should be implemented as a choice for paladins, and -not-, as simply a transmute. In my opinion, transmutation is already too expensive if you care about the look of your character during leveling. Not all of us race to endgame (I'm not denigrating that play choice, just noting it as a choice). Some of us enjoy what our characters are doing before endgame. Holy Avengers are swords...
I wasn't going to come out and say this, but it's what I was thinking. I mean just do a web search for Heritage or Reaper D&D miniatures and the vast majority of anything labeled paladin, is carrying a sword. Again, concessions to the game have to be made because of the medium, but there still needs to be both loyalty and familiarity with the spirit of the original IP
Sovereign Lord of the 1st Fist of Light
Global Handle: @Marshal_Valor
You know I was thinking about this and your post reminded me about it. The developers contradict themselves when they say "maces are iconic for paladins". If that's the case then I'd love for them to explain Helm's Hold and all the other NPC paladins and statues of paladins in the game. All depicted with varying degrees of swords!
Sovereign Lord of the 1st Fist of Light
Global Handle: @Marshal_Valor